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ricardian
1st Nov 2012, 10:37
BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20164591) on coded message found attached to pigeon's leg

NutLoose
1st Nov 2012, 11:20
It must have been a Royal Mail pigeon, they're notoriously late.



.

diginagain
1st Nov 2012, 11:29
'Speckled Jim'?

racedo
1st Nov 2012, 12:33
Tried to get up the chimney as he was being cooked I guess.....

Wensleydale
1st Nov 2012, 13:04
One of RAF Waddington's carrier pigeons, Pigeon Billy, was awarded a Dicken medal (the "animal VC") during WW2.

The pigeon was on board a Waddington based Hampden of 420 Sqn RCAF (PT-F AD915) that was lost to flak over the Frisian Islands on 18/19 Feb 42. The aircraft, which was tasked with gardening (mine laying) crashed onto the frozen beach - the pilot was taken POW, the two gunners were killed and the navigator badly injured. Three days later, the pigeon from the aircraft was found exhausted near Spurn Point having flown 250 miles into the teeth of snow and sleet storms. The message on its leg gave the aircraft position with the letters "OZO" written in the margin. It is highly likely that the Dutch Resistance had searched the aircraft wreckage once the Germans had gone and found the pigeon ("OZO" was the logo of the Dutch resistance and stands for "Holland will Rise Again").

The pilot of the aircraft was P/O Robert Key, who became a journalist after the war and was one of the "Gang of Five" who formed TV-AM in the 1980s.

Does anyone know where Waddington Heritage Centre can lay hands on a WW2 pigeon carrier that was used on bombers during WW2? It would help with the Pigeon Billy exhibit.

Gemini Twin
1st Nov 2012, 18:20
Very interesting, but I thought these ciphertext messages were worked out on a machine (Enigma or Tunny equivalent types) and I didn't think these were carried in our aircraft.

It looks more like an intercept being passed on by an agent.

I'll bet the boys and girls at Bletchley Park could easily convert this message to plaintext, especially if they had COLOSSUS working.

ricardian
1st Nov 2012, 19:08
If it was encoded with an OTP (One Time Pad) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad) the chances of decoding it are minimal!

Gemini Twin
1st Nov 2012, 19:20
Could be completely wrong but I don't think OTP was used by the allies during WW2.

hval
1st Nov 2012, 19:42
Gemini Twin,

I know that SOE used one time pads, but how frequently they were used I do not know.

Tiger_mate
1st Nov 2012, 19:47
The BBC News this morning reported that the message was being taken to its original destination for decoding this afternoon. It will be interesting to see if the message becomes public.

lj101
1st Nov 2012, 20:02
Wensleydale

Not British but its a start...

WWII Era Pigeon Carrier & Weathering Falconry Complete Swiss VG | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WWII-Era-Pigeon-Carrier-Weathering-Falconry-Complete-Swiss-VG-NR-/370678613255?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564e2ac507)

racedo
1st Nov 2012, 21:15
The BBC News this morning reported that the message was being taken to its original destination for decoding this afternoon. It will be interesting to see if the message becomes public.

Speculation on what is says
"Don't invade in Normandy in June it will never work" perhaps...................

oldmansquipper
1st Nov 2012, 23:43
Booking references for aircrew accommodation

7 nights Normandy Coast 7th-14th June 1944?

;)

Karl Bamforth
2nd Nov 2012, 03:51
Maybe it says

Stuck in chimney.
No food.
Not long left.
Tell the old bird I love her........

Buster Hyman
2nd Nov 2012, 04:34
Speculation on what is says
Peace in our time! - Chamberlain.

What the Fug
2nd Nov 2012, 06:12
Mutley rules

aviate1138
2nd Nov 2012, 06:55
We must have more Marmite please send soonest.

airborne_artist
2nd Nov 2012, 07:46
Quest to crack secrets of lost D-Day pigeon - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9649173/Quest-to-crack-secrets-of-lost-D-Day-pigeon.html)

"Experts said the spelling of Serjeant was significant, because the RAF used J, while the Army used G."

Are they sure about that? :confused:

Wensleydale
2nd Nov 2012, 07:47
The message has been shown to be earlier than originally thought and dates from September 1918. It says,

"Archduke Ferdinand found alive. The war is a mistake."

Buster Hyman
2nd Nov 2012, 08:37
...Broadsword calling Danny Boy, Broadsword calling Danny Boy...

teeteringhead
2nd Nov 2012, 09:16
"Experts said the spelling of Serjeant was significant, because the RAF used J, while the Army used G."
... thought that was the Greenjackets? And so probably now the Rifles?

One remembers when they came to Ireland - can't recall which location - they had to repaint all the Sgts' Mess signs to become Sjts' Mess.

GreenKnight121
3rd Nov 2012, 09:29
A later news report has quoted the farmer as saying he had found it in 1982, but couldn't get the Government interested then, so he put it up in a box.

I wonder if the UK Government was a bit distracted in 1982? :hmm:

ShyTorque
3rd Nov 2012, 10:13
The message was later found to mean: "Two pints of milk, one small loaf and a bag of spuds, please".

Tankertrashnav
3rd Nov 2012, 10:26
As teeteringhead has pointed out the spelling hangs on in some of the more traditional regiments, and certainly 'serjeant' was still widely used in the army in WW2. Think it varied from regiment to regiment, as a photo of my father in the Scots Guards in 1928 shows his rank as 'sergeant'. On the other hand I have a copy The RAF Pocket Book, 1937 (A.P. 1081) which uses the spelling 'sergeant', so I reckon this 'expert' is wrong, as they so often are!

charliegolf
3rd Nov 2012, 10:30
Speculation on what is says

.... "This new Ptarmigan radio gear is ****e. Send more pigeons. Standby, Out, Wait Out, Over and Out." c1984.

CG

airborne_artist
3rd Nov 2012, 11:20
Speculation on what is says .... "This new Ptarmigan radio gear is ****e. Send more pigeons. Standby, Out, Wait Out, Over and Out." c1984.

News just in - a second bird has been found with a similar message, which experts said dates from about 2004:

"Bowman radio kit is also sh!te. Send even more pigeons."

Wensleydale
3rd Nov 2012, 12:41
Bowman radio kit is also sh!te. Send even more pigeons


It is interesting to note that the reverse happened. At least one carrier pigeon was carried in each RAF bomber up to November 1943 when VHF radio equipped survival dinghies became available to bomber crews. I believe that only 2 crews in dinghies were rescued due to the direct efforts of their pigeon (both pigeons got Dicken medals). Pigeons did not get airborne if wet, when there was no horizon, and when it was dark. In effect, the radio led to the loss of carrier pigeons in the RAF.

NutLoose
3rd Nov 2012, 12:52
It's actually quite easy to decode once you have the key..

A=1
B=2
C=3

Etc

It then makes sense

Hvpkd then translates to 8 22 16 11 4

Now on a Chinese menu 8 is Beef Curry, 22 is Fried as opposed to boiled rice (that would be 21) 16 is pancake rolls, 11 is prawn crackers and 4 is a soy sauce dip.

So it's nothing but a takeaway lunch order.

goudie
4th Nov 2012, 12:05
I was up very late last night de-coding the message and although I'm not an expert, this is what it says:-

'Send three and fourpence we're going to a dance!'

ricardian
4th Nov 2012, 12:34
Could be completely wrong but I don't think OTP was used by the allies during WW2.
Brigadier Tiltman wrote a classified paper on OTP, now de-classified (but bits still redacted) and available online (http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/tech_journals/Some_Principles.pdf)

Wander00
4th Nov 2012, 15:10
Just been reading a book "Behind Enemy Lines" by a guy called MacPherson (MC x3, CdG x3, Legion d'Honneur) - Jedburghs apparently used OTP

ricardian
12th Nov 2012, 08:49
Here is a report (http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/21065) which has a bit more detail on the event

Al R
24th Nov 2012, 08:03
Beaten?!

Nowt like batco.

UK Cryptographers Fail to Crack World War II Code (http://thenextweb.com/insider/2012/11/23/after-weeks-of-trying-uk-cryptographers-fail-to-crack-world-war-ii-code-found-on-dead-pigeon/?fromcat=apple)

Tankertrashnav
24th Nov 2012, 08:41
Radio 4 had a terrific old lady on this morning who had worked at one of Bletchley's satellites. Eddie Mair had cocked his timing up as usual, so much so that she was given about one minute at the end of the programme to explain her work on the enigma machine! The lady was fantastic and very articulate and deserved a programme to herself, but as usual the programme had given up the majority of its time to the drivelling of various politicians. Why cant the BBC understand we are not all obsessed with the minutiae of politics and find other news items a lot more interesting?

Tiger_mate
24th Nov 2012, 10:02
There has got to be a conspiracy theory to this story now; so:

a) Is it really that they cannot decypher it, (unlikely IMHO) or b) They do not want to announce to the world something significant or embarrassing?

albatross
24th Nov 2012, 10:13
They had a story on it on ABC National News in the US of A yesterday evening.

Can You Help Spies Crack ‘Impossible’ WWII Pigeon Code? - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/11/can-you-help-spies-crack-impossible-wwii-pigeon-code/)

TEEEJ
24th Nov 2012, 12:03
Tiger_mate,

Why is it unlikely? If the message is compiled using a one-time pad then yes it would be unbreakable. See following for earlier Poem Codes and references to One Time Pads.

Poem code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poem_code)

One-time pad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad)

Intelligence agencies still use one time pads. Anyone with a simple short wave receiver can pick up the transmissions but the messages are compiled by using a one-time pad. If they are no errors made in generating and distribution of the one-time pad key material then it should remain secure.

Cuban agent Ana Belen Montes failed to follow correct one time pad procedures resulting in messages being read.

See FBI Affidavit

http://cryptome.org/montes/montes092101.pdf

FBI — FBI 100 - Ana Montes (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2008/september/montes_091209)

Other examples of one-time pad usage at following post link.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/419619-russian-spy-ring-femme-fatale-2.html#post5783949

AtomKraft
24th Nov 2012, 12:10
TEEEJ

Not quite unbreakable.

One simply has to go through the British Librarys books one by one.

It takes a while, but it's been done before.

Capot
24th Nov 2012, 15:07
On a serious historical note, my father (S/Ldr on Lancasters, POW from 1943) was closely involved with experimental work with pigeons in the earlier stages of WWII before more sophisticated homing devices became available.

Realising that too many crews were getting lost on the return from a bombing mission, and frequently abandoning the aircraft as it ran out of fuel, sometimes over the North Sea, the RAF decided to see if pigeons' remarkable abilities could be harnessed in some way.

Initial trials were very simple. Pigeons were based and trained at a bomber station, and once they had demonstrated that they would invariably return there when released at 100-200 miles away they would be tested in live aircraft.

Initially the idea was that they would have about 50ft of strong twine attached to one leg, and would be released through the DV window, with the aircraft flying as slowly as possible without stalling. The bird would then head for the base, and all the pilot had to do was to follow it, using a hand torch, held by the navigator or forward gunner, at night to illuminate a fluorescent spot painted on the bird's anus. However this scheme very soon came up against a fatal flaw; the little birds got tired quite quickly trying to keep ahead of the aircraft. The speed was too much for them, and they would end up being towed by the aircraft.

Where my father came in was his brilliant suggestion that the birds should be trained to move about on the top of the panel, indicating the way home by moving to left or right. If they stayed in the middle the aircraft was on the right heading.

This worked extremely well, and saved many lives.

The whole project was kept top secret, and to this day few if any of those involved have ever talked about it. The cover story was often that the bird was for carrying messages back. But it is now 70 years since those dreadful days, and I think we can feel free to ensure that the work is duly acknowledged.

26er
24th Nov 2012, 15:30
I certainly remember in 1957/8 as SDO at Chivenor having to be instructed by the Station Signals Officer in the use of one time pads in case a secret signal arrived over a weekend, which fortunately never happened to me.

Tankertrashnav
24th Nov 2012, 16:46
Capot - has it ever occurred to you that perhaps you have too much time on your hands? ;)

Capot
24th Nov 2012, 17:32
TTN

Sprained ankle, bored........better by tomorrow! I did order myself to switch the damned thing off a little while ago, but disobeyed....

MightyGem
24th Nov 2012, 21:02
No, no, capot is right. It was further developed after the war to counter not only getting lost, but also getting disorientated in cloud. As pigeons were found to be quite happy flying in all weathers, another bird had to be found to do the job; a duck. Combining the duck with a cat, for attitude control, led to the Cat and Duck method for recovering from inadvertent IMC.

Basic rules for the C&D Method of instrument flight are extremely simple. Here's how it's done:

1. Place a live cat on the cockpit floor; because a cat always remains upright. It can be used in lieu of a needle and ball. Merely watch to see which way the cat leans to determine if a wing is low and if so, which one.

2. The duck is used for instrument approach and landing. Because of the fact that any sensible duck will refuse to fly under instrument conditions, it is only necessary to hurl your duck out of the plane and follow it to the ground.

November4
24th Nov 2012, 22:47
Noooooo!

You can't be saying that Capot's tale isn't true

Capot
25th Nov 2012, 11:41
Now see here, sunshine, On a serious historical notemeans what it says. Every word is Gospel truth. Those little unsung heroes deserve a medal, not doubting Thomas's.

MadsDad
25th Nov 2012, 11:45
Regarding pigeon guidance systems:-

"During WW II, Project Pigeon (later Project Orcon, for "organic control") was American behaviorist B.F. Skinner's attempt to develop a pigeon-guided missile. The control system involved a lens at the front of the missile projecting an image of the target to a screen inside, while a pigeon trained (by operant conditioning) to recognize the target pecked at it. As long as the pecks remained in the center of the screen, the missile would fly straight, but pecks off-center would cause the screen to tilt, which would then, via a connection to the missile's flight controls, cause the missile to change course and slowly travel towards its designated target/s."

millerscourt
25th Nov 2012, 11:47
Too much time on his hands says Tankertrashnav with 1475 Posts:{

Tankertrashnav
25th Nov 2012, 12:01
Guilty as charged :O

sitigeltfel
25th Nov 2012, 12:04
Take it to the Papua New Guinea embassy. They will know someone who understands Pidgin language.

Capot
25th Nov 2012, 12:18
watch to see which way the cat leans to determine if a wing is low and if so, which one.
With my old man's words ringing in my ears (he was also involved in those trials) I realise that this was just a slip of the pen, but the younger and less aware among us may need to have it pointed out that the cat's angle of lean indicated the amount by which the aircraft was slipping, and not which wing was down; in a perfect turn the cat would, of course, remain upright in the same way as a cabin attendant remains upright (in a turn, not in the slip hotel, of course).

The turn itself was indicated by the movement of the pigeon on the panel, which would also provide a coarse VS indication; as it pointed to the destination its little beak would move up in a descent, and vice versa.*


*Unless the destination was 91 - 269 degrees from the aircraft heading, in which case the beak's vertical angle would indicate the reverse, obviously.

Milo Minderbinder
25th Nov 2012, 14:43
Weird Weapons [Pigeon guided missile] - YouTube

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
25th Nov 2012, 23:52
Obviously the ability to debrief the pigeon after a mission was quite limited.

500N
26th Nov 2012, 00:01
All you need is someone who can speak pigeon english !

Wensleydale
26th Nov 2012, 07:25
Capot,

There is photographic evidence of the pigeon trials from Boscombe Down .... However, the early flights were carried out with a dog rather than a cat. I hope that your detractors will appologise!

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/DASTARDLY-MUTTLEY-vs-YANKEE-DOODLE-PIGEON-PRINT-HB-/00/$(KGrHqEOKkUE1pFpDe0FBNh!FB5Y4Q~~_35.JPG

NutLoose
26th Nov 2012, 17:03
albatross

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 390
They had a story on it on ABC National News in the US of A yesterday evening.

Can You Help Spies Crack ‘Impossible’ WWII Pigeon Code? - ABC News


No doubt it will be solved by a 9 year old autistic boy called Simon..

ORAC
16th Dec 2012, 14:47
Has the D-Day pigeon riddle been cracked? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9748484/Has-the-D-Day-pigeon-riddle-been-cracked.html)

A coded message from the Second World War found tied to the remains of a carrier pigeon in a chimney contains details of German tank movements sent by a British soldier, a team of Canadian researchers believe.

TEEEJ
16th Dec 2012, 18:37
Some more info from the BBC news website.

Gord Young, from Peterborough, in Ontario, says it took him 17 minutes to decypher the message after realising a code book he inherited was the key.

Mr Young says the 1944 note uses a simple World War I code to detail German troop positions in Normandy.

BBC News - Has World War II carrier pigeon message been cracked? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20749632)

November4
16th Dec 2012, 19:32
He believes it was written by 27-year-old Sgt William Stott, a Lancashire Fusilier, who had been dropped into Normandy - with pigeons - to report on German positions. Sgt Stott was killed a few weeks later and is buried in a Normandy war cemetery.

According to the CWGC, there is no Sgt Stott buried in Normandy.There is a Fusilier William Stott.

FlightlessParrot
17th Dec 2012, 00:29
That 'decryption' is about as useful as the 'decipherings' which 'prove' that Bacon wrote Shakespeare.

Imagine you're waiting in Britain for the brave pigeon to bring the message from the undoubtedly brave observer, and you got that. 42 is a better answer.

Sallyann1234
17th Dec 2012, 09:24
I have always wondered how a spy could travel around occupied France carrying a pigeon. Wasn't it just a tad suspicious?

NutLoose
17th Dec 2012, 10:36
Suprising what you find up Chimneys

Joseph Schexnider, Remains Found In Chimney After 27 Years (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/28/joseph-schexnider-remains-found-chimney_n_911871.html)

AR1
17th Dec 2012, 12:30
So thats where Speckled Jim ended up.

Agaricus bisporus
17th Dec 2012, 13:19
Cue Heston Blumenthal....

Aged Smoked Breast of Ministry Pigeon Served on a Bed of Normandy Apple flavoured Soot, to be eaten by numbers at a rate of 116 chews per minute while listening to shellfire on a walkman (supplied).