Gloster Javelin [Archive]

SOSL

6th Nov 2012, 21:01

My boss at RAF Det Salalah was a Wg Cdr ex-Javelin Nav ( Initials P G) he was an absolute corker - the troops loved him for 2 reasons:

He could drink more gin than any three of them and still stand up and speak clearly, even in the Wobbly Wheel Club..

When things were really hot and we had to turn round an RAF Herc within 30 mins, he would take his shirt off and hump pallets alongside the SAC movers.

He was replaced by a complete w..... (rhymes with Banker) who immediately destroyed all the morale and loyalty that P G had built up, but that's another story.

He (P G) went to HQ Stc doing some numpty job then Fylingdales as the CO, I think, with a rather lovely WRAF Sqn Ldr in tow.

He used to build amazing dolls houses with fantastic miniature furniture. He's probably dead by now because of the gin. But I loved him.

Rgds SOS

HAS59

7th Nov 2012, 08:07

When I joined the mob in 1972 there was an excellent Air Safety film about a crew delivering a Javelin to Singapore.

Steve Bond

7th Nov 2012, 09:58

Samuel,

That looks as though it could be a fantastic photo, but it is far too small to see properly. Any chance of a higher resolution version please?

Thanks

OwnNav

7th Nov 2012, 10:16

JENKINS
Re: "Wonder if Hugh Stark of Sturgate treads this earth still. Gave me quite a bit of gainful employment in days past."

I was talking to Hugh at the funeral of Sqn. Ldr. Les Meadows last year.

langleybaston

7th Nov 2012, 11:56

I did weather forecasts for Javelins, not sure where, but think it was Leeming and Nicosia. Am I imagining it?

tony.russell5

7th Nov 2012, 16:27

I'm with you George.
Tony Russell 87 Sqdn (1958-1961) and 41 Sqdn (1962)
Sadly, I've just completed an Executor job for my last pilot Bryan Todd.

Brian 48nav

7th Nov 2012, 19:14

There were a few ex-Javelin men I met in CAA ATC.
At LHR we had Derek Harriss (extra S is correct), RIP, Terry Quantrill and John MacDermott as rear seaters and IIRC Hank Prosser (RIP) as a former driver. At West Drayton I worked with Bob Houghton (also RIP) who had been a Radio Observer.
My wife, through art connections, knew a lady called Liz Deakin whose husband had been on Javelins in the Far East, possibly as a Flt Cdr.

Samuel

7th Nov 2012, 19:19

That looks as though it could be a fantastic photo, but it is far too small to see properly. Any chance of a higher resolution version please?
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/60SqnJavelins.jpg

Samuel

7th Nov 2012, 19:27

There were a number of 60/64 Javelins lost at Tengah in 65/66, at least four that I recall.

I was back in Singapore 1974/76 [Flt LT RNZAF]in ANZUK, and briefly lived in an ex-RAF MQ at 12 Hyde Park Gate at Seletar, and piled three deep in that corner of the airfield nearest the Officer's Mess were all 60 and 64 Javelins!

chiglet

7th Nov 2012, 21:24

Chuffin' Eck George...Try the MACC website
www.maccvets.com (http://www.maccvets.com)
Cheers,
Chig

Steve Bond

8th Nov 2012, 09:50

Thanks for the bigger photo Samuel - lovely!

Navrad

12th Nov 2012, 11:47

I'm sure he was on 87 at Bruggen the same time as Tony Russel and myself. Incidentally Peter Williams, ex 151 Javs .,has been in touch and I am in regular contact with my 151 pilot, Pip Stowell. Also contacted Peter Walsh a while back - not sure if he is still extant.
George

Chugalug2

12th Nov 2012, 12:33

Samuel:
I was back in Singapore 1974/76 [Flt LT RNZAF]in ANZUK, and briefly lived in an ex-RAF MQ at 12 Hyde Park Gate at Seletar, and piled three deep in that corner of the airfield nearest the Officer's Mess were all 60 and 64 Javelins!
I guess that would include this one then:-http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/GlosterJavelinEscort1.jpg

Fitter2

12th Nov 2012, 12:50

Ah, Whisky. Ex 64 (I'm pretty sure) and out of Kuching, I think. gioing along for the ride on a jungle supply airdrop, we used to wave them in closer to get a better pic.

sled dog

12th Nov 2012, 13:01

Fitter2, tail markings are 60 Sqdn...........

Chugalug2

12th Nov 2012, 14:42

It's at Kuching, Fitter2. They had been covering our 48 Sqn Hastings doing supply drops on the border and we returned in close formation, performing a run-in and break at Kuching. They did say however that if we got bounced, by a Mustang for instance, our best bet was to get as low as possible, fly as slowly as possible, and turn as tightly as possible. If they'd fired a Firestreak at a pursuer it was just as likely to hit us! Mercifully such advice did not have to be acted upon.
You are right, sled dog, they were 60 Sqn.

Fitter2

12th Nov 2012, 15:16

Mea culpa - the pic was scaled too big to see the tail on my screen. Most of the 60 Sqn aircraft had 4 Firestreaks, the 64 add-ons retained the tanks on the inboards.

aviate1138

12th Nov 2012, 18:11

Samuel

A bigger but not much higher res pic.....

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/aviate1138/ScreenShot2012-11-12at190247.jpg

I used to sit by the Benson ILS Glideslope hut and listen to that wonderful vacuum cleaner

note when they taxied out to take off. 1960 :)

Samuel

12th Nov 2012, 19:59

As an airman on 14 Sqn RNZAF [Canberra B12] at Tengah in 1966, I was aware that taking photographs was frowned upon by the RAF, [the one above was taken from a long way away from the aircraft,by a mate hence the poor definition], I didn't actually own a camera at the time!

Imagine my surprise one day when driving back from the airfield to see a RAF Police Landrover complete with flashing blue light behind me indicating me to pull over. You can't actually do that on Tengah roads, so I pulled in to the Guardroom and was escorted into an office whereupon sat an RAF Flt LT, who didn't say who he was but whom I presumed was a Provost.

Flanked on either side by the two Snowdrops from the Landrover, his opening comment was: "I want the camera, and I want it now". From the mystified look on my face he then asked: "You've been seen taking photo's of the Javelin flight line".

I realised that this guy hadn't the faintest idea of what he was talking about, and suggested he might be wrong because, A: I didn't own a camera and B:I hadn't been anywhere remotely close to the 64 Sqn Flight line.

IT slowly dawned on him that he might just have got it all wrong, and questioned the two rozzers on what they had seen, and it turned out they hadn't been anywhere near the airfield either.

Collapse of case and I did get an apology.

I watched two Javelins self destruct at Tengah, one T-Bird landed and had a brake failure and left the runway and tried to leap the large Mossie ditch which ran the full length of the runway, but ended up straddling it almost directly opposite the 64 flight line. Occupants vacated and casually strolled across to the Sqn Line office.

Another was turning onto final approach over the Officers' Mess when the throttle locks engaged [so we were told], and the aircraft developed a glide angle of a brick. When you watch a double ejection you don't believe it initially! That aircraft land in one piece in a paddy in Jurong.

I also believe a Javelin shot down an Indonesian Hercules.

In 1974, there were a number of QFIs from the RAF, RNZAF, RAAF, contracted to the fledging Singapore air force as instructors on the Maachi. They used to gather in the Mess at Changi, and I was told by one over a beer or three that he had been on the Javelin detachment to Lusaka Airport [?]at the time of the Rhodesian declaration of independence. The story was that most of them knew many of the Rhodesian pilots, many of whom were ex-RAF, and in fact they met occasionally over a beer. What a gentlemanly way to run a war!

lauriebe

13th Nov 2012, 06:32

Fitter 2,

XH877 had been on 64 before it went to 60 Sqn. It returned to 64 at some stage after the photo above was taken and was lost 20m NE of Tawau on 22 Jun 65.

Details of the loss here, scroll down the page to reach the date:

1965 (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/project/year_pages/1965.htm)

Fitter2

13th Nov 2012, 08:22

Thanks, Laurie. My (hazy almost 50 year old) recollection was of the 60 Sqdn. Javelins having 4 missiles, and the 64 Sqdn. aircraft retaining the inner tanks for longer patrol durations.

I also believe a Javelin shot down an Indonesian Hercules.

There were persistent rumours, including Tengah groundcrew who swore that on the appropriate night a scrambled Javelin returned with shoes attached but missiles missing, and being sworn to secrecy as the ROEs prohibited such action without MOD approval. Equally, there are aircrew (who would have known) who are certain it never happened. I would have thought by now the facts would be known if it did happen.

Dockers

13th Nov 2012, 08:51

...but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964. from thunder and lightnings.co.uk http://www.******************************/javelin/history.php

NutherA2

13th Nov 2012, 09:02

Another was turning onto final approach over the Officers' Mess when the throttle locks engaged
XH877 had been on 64 before it went to 60 Sqn. It returned to 64 at some after the photo above was taken and was lost 20m NE of Tawau on 22 Jun 65.
Coincidentally both ejections were by the same crew, Pete Hart & Dinger Dell.

I also believe a Javelin shot down an Indonesian HerculesAs has been said several times before, by some of us who were there,this never happened; for what it's worth as I remember the RoE during "Confrontation" we didn't need MoD approval to engage any Indonesian aircraft we might encounter within the Malaysian ADIZ, if it was "committing a hostile act" we had authorisation to shoot it down. Sadly, on the only occasion their C130s were known to have dropped paratroops (at Labis) our alert Javelins weren't scrambled.

FantomZorbin

13th Nov 2012, 15:58

I knew a 'stude' at Leeming in 1965 called Brendan Kaye (a Kiwi iirc) ... I heard that he met with an accident flying a Javelin in the Far East - does anyone have details of the circumstances?

Basil

13th Nov 2012, 17:50

Only one-eyed pilot I've ever come across was an ex Javelin chap on Argosies.

lauriebe

14th Nov 2012, 05:52

F Z,

Brendan Kay and his passenger, Cpl K Ashbee, died following a collision during a stream take off in pairs of 6 aircraft at Tengah on 30 May 67. He was serving on 64 Sqn at the time. Kay was flying the No. 4 position and came into contact with No. 3.

The occupants of the other aircraft were able to bang-out succesfully. Kay and Ashby, it seems, left their ejections too late.

The squadron was very close to disbanding and were giving their groundcrews flights in the back seats of their aircraft.

Samuel

14th Nov 2012, 10:25

Coincidentally both ejections were by the same crew, Pete Hart & Dinger Dell.

In which case I picked one of them up walking along the Jurong road! He said it was his second ejection!

FantomZorbin

14th Nov 2012, 13:15

lauriebe

Thank you very much for that info. That is very sad; as I type this I am looking at a photo Brendan took of my wife and me and gave to us - a thoroughly nice guy RIP.

matspart3

14th Nov 2012, 21:07

John Lewer has been pointed in the direction of this thread.

If you're looking for a reunion venue, I'd be happy to host one at Gloucester.

Rallyepilot

14th Nov 2012, 23:05

It has been said that the Mk6 and Mk8 Javelins were more effective than the Mk7 and Mk9 Javelins. This was due to them having the American made AI-22 radar which offered a track WHILE scan capability, whereas the Mk 7 and Mk9 were fitted with the British made AI-17 which offered a track OR scan capability. I was wondering if any Javelin crews wished to comment on this?
Also, it is great to see some Javelin photos on this thread. Are there any more out there???

Frostchamber

15th Nov 2012, 14:19

Not pictures as such but some videos.

The first link is to a video on on YouTube and I nearly didn't post it for fear it would be over-familiar to people. But it's in keeping with this thread and some may not have seen it I guess, so here it is: Mission 66 - Gloster Javelin mission 1966 - YouTube

The second is a nice old Pathe film about the introduction of the Mk1 with 46 sqn at Odiham: RAF GETS ANOTHER NEW FIGHTER - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/raf-gets-another-new-fighter/query/gloster+javelin) I smiled at the final line in the commentary about one task of the squadron being to see if there were any ways of improving the aircraft

The third, for the more die-hard Javelin fan, is another Pathe - a rather ponderous silent sequence of a Javelin in a ground-testing silencer pen: TWIN JET SILENCER PEN - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/twin-jet-silencer-pen/query/gloster+javelin)

Fareastdriver

15th Nov 2012, 14:45

Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember in the early 70s a Javelin failing to take off from Odiham and departing though the hedge, across the Odiham/Hook road and into a field on the other side. The aircraft was virtually undamaged because, as the farmer explained, the hedges had been removed by innumerable Hunters and Javelins beforehand.

Wander00

15th Nov 2012, 14:55

Silencer pen worked OK then.

I'll get my coat!

Samuel

15th Nov 2012, 22:58

goudie

15th Nov 2012, 23:09

The one story I recall involving the Javelin, was Denis Healy, as Defence Minister, making an announcement in the H of C's to the effect that a squadron of Javelins had taken off from HMS ????? (an aircraft carrier on duty in the Indian Ocean) to patrol the borders of S Rhodesia, when Ian Smith declared unilateral independence.

Rallyepilot

18th Nov 2012, 16:25

Like OK465, I, too, find single aircraft threads extremely interesting hence my request for Javelin crew comment on the attributes provided by having AI-22 equipment on board the Javelin rather than AI-17.

Being a night and all weather fighter (FAW), the Javelin and its pilot and navigator crew were expected to perform intercepts during day time and at night in all weather conditions at very high level all the way down to very low levels Therefore, in extreme weather conditions, the pilot would be concentrating on flying the aircraft and would almost certainly not be in a position to help with visual target acquisition. In such conditions, the task of target acquisition was handled by the navigator using the airborne intercept (AI) radar.

My understanding is that the the AI-22 was, in effect, a dual radar system. It had a search radar and a separate tracking radar which operated at a different frequency. The benefit of this was that if, due to target countermeasures and /or evasion, the tracking radar's lock was broken the navigator could immediately re-acquire the target by looking at the search radar function and, if desired, rapidly slew the tracking radar back on to the target. The other advantage was that by monitoring the search radar the navigator could easily see if his tracking radar was tracking the target or a chaff bundle. Once locked on, the pointing direction of the tracking radar was fed to the pilot's HUD/Gun-sight. By having the search and track functions operating simultaneously, the navigator was better able to maintain situation awareness and achieve uninterrupted view of the target thus making a successful intercept more likely.

With AI-17, if radar lock was broken, the radar had to be returned to the sector scan function to re-acquire the target. Under benign operating conditions (straight and level or mild turns) this would not have caused a significant problem and re-lock would / should have been fairly easily achieved. However, in extreme weather and operating conditions and if the target was evading and using chaff and/or jamming the problem would become much more difficult and a successful intercept less likely.

This is my theoretical analysis of the benefits afforded by having AI-22 on board instead of AI-17. But, I was a radar tradesman not a navigator and I really would like to hear from Javelin crew members if this theoretical analysis held up under real operational conditions.

PLUS: Any additional Javelin photos would be welcomed

lauriebe

19th Nov 2012, 05:30

No. 60 Sqn final line-up at RAF Tengah, 1 May 1968, the day after the disbandment parade.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5263/5594760238_ac699d201b_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/janner88/5594760238/)
Jav Line-up001 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/janner88/5594760238/) by Janner88 (http://www.flickr.com/people/janner88/), on Flickr

Apologies for the poor quality. I only have a 5" x 3" B&W print to scan from. Negative has long since been lost.

Rallyepilot

19th Nov 2012, 12:31

Thanks lauriebe, A great picture, but a sad one too.

Wander00

19th Nov 2012, 12:56

ISTR a story, probably apochryphal, that crews of at least one mark of Javelin that had a rotating rather than nodding emitter all or nearly all had children of one gender, but cannot recall if it was boys or girls, but I think possibly the latter

ancientaviator62

20th Nov 2012, 12:26

I thought all marks of Javelin had either AI 17 or AI 21/22 none of which I think had rotating scanners. Certainly the marks I worked on had AI 17 with the clunking side to side scanner which looked like it had been made by the village blacksmith on his day off.

Fitter2

20th Nov 2012, 12:51

In track mode AI17 stopped its bouncing off the end stops scan, pointed at the target designated by the nav and the radar head rotated, with a beam offset (2 degrees from my fading memory) from the axis of rotation so that the phase of the return amplitude drove the scanner to track the target. The dish didn't rotate, only the central waveguide out.

Never worked on AI22, but it had the reputation of better range, and more versatile, but less reliable in RAF service.

John Bateson

16th Dec 2012, 15:55

I was at Seletar from '66 until '68, initially servicing AI17 in 390MU. The results of 'bouncing off the end stops' were clearly visible in the tears around the fixing nuts. It too a while before the management agreed to buy a torque wrench so they could be tightened correctly. End of tears.
AI17 was old in '66. Parts, especially the magnetron were labelled 1946 (same as the khaki drill) and the IF strips were so of spec. they were impossible to align. It took a purchase of some 66 ohm resistors and a test installation and demonstration to show what was wrong, but it also took a further 6 months for 'authorised' parts to arrive from the UK.
Power supplies were being rewired totally because they were totally decrepid. There was a young guy called Ramasamy Rajaratnam who took it upon himself to produce a rewiring harness from scratch. Fantastic job with one exception, and the trick was to get a pair of wires changed over between him finishing the job and putting it under power.
I was always surprised to see them fly and hoped I would never be offered a flight in one of them. I think they were all sold to the Singapore Government in 1969, virtually at scrap value for training Singapore airmen.
John

Rallyepilot

16th Dec 2012, 23:23

John,

I, too, worked at 390 MU in the mid 60s! Unfortunately, I was assigned to the DME bench - Rebecca 4 and 8 - which I found to be rather brain numbing.

Before being posted to Singapore I did some work on AI-17 at Leeming and Waterbeach hence my interest in the Javelin. I thought it was a great looking aircraft with bags of character. True, it probably couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, but when it came to performing night and/or all-weather interceptions of bomber size aircraft it proved to be a marked improvement over the Meteor NF11/14 which it replaced.

Anyway, I agree with you that AI-17 was a dogs breakfast and going by some of the ex-Javelin aircrew I have had the privilege of talking to, it was inferior to the American built AI-22 which was fitted to the even marks of Javelin.

Wasn't Singapore great in the 60s.

sled dog

17th Dec 2012, 09:00

Wasn`t Singapore great in the 60s Aaaah FEAF, best posting (and a few dets) in the RAF :ok::ok::ok::ok::cool::cool::cool::cool:

millerscourt

17th Dec 2012, 12:16

Samuel

Hope pr00ne is not reading that comment about fraternising with the Rhodesian Pilots as he will come over all self righteous:8

85Shiney

19th Dec 2012, 07:43

bucklt

7th Mar 2013, 01:46

I love this aircraft! ...and have about 7 different Airfix-type plastic models awaiting construction.

Served at Tengah in 1975 (103 Sqdn) and there was a Javelin abandoned at one end of the runaway...no idea how it got there?

Am now living in SE Asia and, if anyone's interested, have photos of all the graves and memorials at Kranji Cemetery, in addition to 10 other countries in this region.

I mention this as I suspect that some of those Javelin aircrew/groundcrew may be buried there. All images are available for FREE...just ask.

Bucklt :ok:

normspence

2nd Apr 2013, 17:50

I knew Pete Ash at R.A.F. Ahlhorn, where he was an NF11 driver on 256 Sqn.and his nav, was Arthur Sadler. I was a nav.on 96 Sqn, and Pete Driscoll was my driver. This was 1952 - 1955.
I was Nav/Rad Leader of the Javelin Mobile Training Unit, 1958 - 1959.
I would be very pleased to have Pete's contact details.

Norman Spence

SOSL

2nd Apr 2013, 18:01

When I was posted to Salalah in 1974 the CO was an ex-Javelin Nav (inits PG). He was a fantastic character. Ended up as CO at Fylingdales IIRC.

Rgds SOS

bcgallacher

2nd Apr 2013, 20:21

In my youth I heard a story about a Cyprus based Javelin intercepting a light aircraft at night suspected of carrying arms from Greece for EOKA .The person relating this tale informed me that he made a close pass and then witnessed the flash as the aircraft hit the mountains. Anyone have any hard info on this?

Rossian

2nd Apr 2013, 20:26

......'scuse a knackered old kipper fleet chap intruding. When did "radar observers" morph in to navigators? I flew with a nav who'd started his aviating career as an RO and was on Shacks as a nav when I met him - Del Littlefield??

My next ex Jav man was the headline chap above - born in France, family emigrated to Canada where he joined the RCAF when he grew up, flew the CF-100 for a while then transferred to the RAF where he flew the Javelin in Butterworth. He fell out with his flt cdr and asked to go "anywhere but where S/L XXX might be" and ended up on 120 Sqn on the Mk3 Shack. We detached to Sharjah where he discovered S/LXXX as S/L Ops!!! Big stramash in the bar the night our hero decided to try and kill S/L XXX. Remarkably little was said about it afterwards. But then that was Sharjah at that time.......

The Ancient Mariner

Fixed Cross

3rd Apr 2013, 07:08

Forgive an old "RO" from entering the Javelin exchange but the correct designation was "Radio Observer". Not many were actually trained-perhaps 100?.

After 6 months of basic Nav training at one of the Nav schools the RO progressed to radar intercept training either at North Luffenham or Leeming. Chasing blips up and down scopes sitting sideways in a smelly old Brigand (in total darkness) was not an easy game and many fell by the wayside. However, many of those "chopped" returned to Nav school and emerged later with a Navs brevet and a commission. The advantages of this procedure were not lost on other ROs and some were suspected of not exactly doing their best to succeed.

Subsequently after a tour in the back seat most ROs followed back through Nav training. The odd very lucky individual got into the front seat (yes, I was one of them) and somewhat late in career found our way into the Hunter force.

Geehovah

3rd Apr 2013, 17:41

There may be the odd Javelin back seater on here. Worth a check:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/389719607763196/

Courtney Mil

3rd Apr 2013, 18:33

There are some odd Phantom backseaters on there too!:E:E

NutherA2

3rd Apr 2013, 18:39

There are some odd Phantom backseaters on there too!

Some of them did the job on the Javelin and the F4, Courtney, I flew with a number of them and you're quite right some of them were odd............:E:E:E

blaireau

3rd Apr 2013, 21:10

Rossian. Was that Jimmy J---?

Rossian

3rd Apr 2013, 21:49

....I take it you mean S/L XXX? Probably the man you're thinking of. Each evening in the bar, after dinner, he had the barman set up a silver tray with a bottle of champagne and two bottles of Guiness to see him through the evening.

When I said "Sharjah was like that at that time" I also had in mind the F/O admin who arrived back from his "LUKFREE" on the Andover from Bahrein at lunch time and went straight into the bar to top up the already heavy overload of alcohol. Taken to task by OC Admin for being late and in no fit state to do anything workwise; our hero vented all his misery at being back by launching into a verbal and then physical assault on his boss. Again, not a lot was said about it in the form of disciplinary action.

Funny old place.....

The Ancient Mariner

Ubehagligpolitiker

4th Apr 2013, 08:55

It was an odd place; the MO was found one day standing on the threshold of the runway. When asked what he was doing he replied ' waiting for take-off clearance" - he disappeared soon afterwards.

Al-bert

4th Apr 2013, 12:09

This link East Anglian Film Archive: Battle Formation: The Story of the Royal Air Force Coltishall, 1959 (http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/209623) has some nice Javelin footage. A few might also recognise an ex RAF pilot for whom opportunity later "knocked" http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Cheers Shiny! Now I know where John Sparks (Hugh Pugh - Barry Welsh is Coming) got his inspiration from! Hilarious :D

tomdocherty72

4th Apr 2013, 13:27

Hi Newt, are you aware of the No 72 Sqn Association? You can make contact via Home - No 72 Squadron Association (http://72squadronassociation.webs.com/index.htm)

Wander00

4th Apr 2013, 13:47

Anyone remember a Javelin driver called Brian Henwood? Flew several sorties in the JP with him at Cranwell, including one where we shared the flying as both so hung over from Bruce Holben's 21st (and what happened to him - went through Cranwell as a scribbly as he had been told he was not medically fit aircrew, and his commissioning medical said he was, so ISTR went to helicopters). BH ISTR was recalled briefly to the Javelin fleet during the Rhodesia crisis when I think Javelins were based in Zambia for a bit

airborne_artist

4th Apr 2013, 13:52

Bruce Holben (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q27ho2szWCoC&pg=PR13&lpg=PR13&dq=Bruce+Holben&source=bl&ots=NroaFI5PlG&sig=kgKpAWNFUjo1se02dUtynLbFpJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F4VdUfuvHqLU0QWltYHYCQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwADgU)

Bruce Holben's 21st (and what happened to him - went through Cranwell as a scribbly as he had been told he was not medically fit aircrew, and his commissioning medical said he was, so ISTR went to helicopters) (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q27ho2szWCoC&pg=PR13&lpg=PR13&dq=Bruce+Holben&source=bl&ots=NroaFI5PlG&sig=kgKpAWNFUjo1se02dUtynLbFpJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F4VdUfuvHqLU0QWltYHYCQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwADgU)

Wander00

4th Apr 2013, 14:51

AA - that was a good "find". Thanks.

Anyone know if Bruce is (given our ages) still around?

NutherA2

7th Apr 2013, 16:29

blaireau (http://www.pprune.org/members/65441-blaireau)

Was that Jimmy J---?The Flight Commander with whom Jacques"Vin Ordinaire" David did not see eye to eye at Butterworth was C--- I---. At the same time there was also a Sqn Ldr J--- J--- at Labuan with whom I think nobody got along, might he have become the Sharjah person later on?

Wander 00

Anyone remember a Javelin driver called Brian Henwood?Brian was our IRE on 43(F) Sqn in the early 1970s; he renewed my rating on the F4 a couple of times. I remember him well as well laid-back, one of the most relaxed and cheerful people I ever flew with.

Wander00

7th Apr 2013, 17:20

NutherA" - Brian was indeed a lovely relaxed and relaxing guy to fly with, even for a ham-fisted stude like me

NutLoose

7th Apr 2013, 19:01

There is someone posting some superbly clear images of the Javelin in Africa during 1966 when he was an engineer on them..

See

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=123478

ricardian

7th Apr 2013, 20:27

Wander00 said BH ISTR was recalled briefly to the Javelin fleet during the Rhodesia crisis when I think Javelins were based in Zambia for a bit
I was on duty in the commcen on the night that 29 Sqn was sent to Zambia, I think another squadron was also sent but nearly 50 years on my memory is a bit vague. A "base alert" on Akrotiri was always an event - the fire engine driving around the married patch with bells & blue lights and everyone not on duty getting into uniform and reporting to their section.
The commcen had 4 watches covering 24/7, on a base alert the watch on their day off was split among the remaining 3 watches who began an 8 hours on, 16 hours off system until the alert was over. However, we all had to get to work (2 miles from the accommodation) in uniform ASAP because that was what the orders said!

NutLoose

7th Apr 2013, 22:03

As I said, look at the piccie link I posted :ok: he really has some cracking pictures, hope he posts more, here are two from that link.

http://s7.postimg.org/mhdnpb80b/img195.jpg

http://s7.postimg.org/yzu95w4zv/img205.jpg

Waddo Plumber

7th Apr 2013, 22:06

You're saying there's a clue in the photo, right?

NutLoose

7th Apr 2013, 22:14

Errm there might be :E

Alex Crawford

30th Aug 2013, 15:55

Hi,

I'm gathering material for a book on the Javelin and would like to get in touch with those who flew and maintained these aircraft.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Alex
[email protected]

MPN11

30th Aug 2013, 16:42

Background reading, I guess, but may be of some use. I arrived at Tengah in Oct 67, as 64 Sqn were disbanding, and had about 6 months controlling 60 Sqn.

Photos are cr@p, I regret, as I only had a little pocket-sized Minolata running on 8mm film … they're attached for what they are worth (£0.02p?)

So … on disbandment 64's aircraft were towed away to the dispersal in front of the Officers' Mess (Foxtrot?) and 60 kept going. Just. Almost once a week over the ensuing months, one of 2 things happened:

On landing, one of the main gear down-locks failed, the leg collapsed and the aircraft skated off the runway into the grass or the massive monsoon drain.
On startup, a blockage in a vent resulted in the Avpin (?) starter blowing the bottom off the aircraft, along with the pair of 200 gallon slipper tanks which duly crashed to the floor.

New controllers were briefed to expect these events, and were very quick on the Crash Alarm in consequence.

A sad tale I do recall was when, having recovered and repaired an aircraft after event 1, on startup for the test flight it suffered event 2. IIRC it was towed over to Foxtrot, and one of the best of 64's aircraft was brought back into use as the replacement.

Eventually, and without much ceremony, in April 1968 all the aircraft ended up in Foxtrot (overlooked by the Mess Bar) where they were then hammered into scrap metal by local civilians using sledgehammers and other crude implements. Not a pretty sight whilst trying to enjoy a beer!

One of them (S - XH908) was towed off to the Crash Crew training area for further indignities.

(Edit. "T" is of course a T. Mk 3 T-Bird and not an F.A.W. 9R)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/60-1.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/60-1.jpeg.html)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/60-2.jpeg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/60-2.jpeg.html)

Alex Crawford

30th Aug 2013, 18:01

Hi MPN11,

Thanks for the reply. From what I have gathered engine blow outs/fires seem to have been a common occurrence.

Alex

MPN11

30th Aug 2013, 19:01

Only about once a fortnight at Tengah in those days.
Perhaps it was the spiders? :8

Oh, don't forget the paint. The palest grey and green ever seen. In fact, on some aircraft, bordering on overall pale grey!! When one came out from a major, resprayed, it looked quite 'foreign' ;)

BTW, my room in the Mess (#48) overlooked the 'scrapyard'. Quite a depressing sight.

Fareastdriver

30th Aug 2013, 19:50

I wonder if anybody here can help? I am looking for a picture of a Javelin refuelling from a Valiant taken from a similar position as this one of a Lightning.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/ValLight-1.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/ValLight-1.jpg.html)

I have pictures of the operation taken from the side; this is the sort of picture I am after.

Alex Crawford

30th Aug 2013, 19:56

I haven't come across any Javelin refuelling photos. Care to share some of what you have?

Alex

GGR

30th Aug 2013, 20:24

Slightly off thread but I recall being at RAF Stafford in I think 1968 sitting my entrance exams and having a grandstand view of the static display Javelin. I could almost touch the thing from my second floor room. After a sleepless night stressing over the impending tests I looked out to see the the Javelin in sillouette against the autumn sunrise. Never forget that. A reminder if needed, as to why I was there.

GGR

NutherA2

30th Aug 2013, 22:36

MPN11

Edit. "T" is of course a T. Mk 3 T-Bird and not an F.A.W. 9R"T" is certainly a FAW9 or 9R, the T3 didn't have Firestreak pylons or an AI Radome. I can't make out the airframe number from the photo (perhaps XH843?), but the only T3 I flew on 60 was XH390; I can't be sure of the side letter, but during my time (63 - 66) I think it was "O".

CoffmanStarter

31st Aug 2013, 06:32

AC ... Here is a pic from the 214 Squadron Web Page but unfortunately not from the angle FED is looking for.

214 Squadron : The Valiant Years (http://www.214squadron.org.uk/History_the_valiant_years.htm)

http://www.214squadron.org.uk/Graphics/History_the_valiant_years_7.jpg

Fareastdriver

31st Aug 2013, 08:10

That's an old picture even in Valiant terms. Black registrations under both wings. They went to light blue underneath only one in 1960.

This is the couple I have.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/JavampValiant_zpsd8b367e5.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/JavampValiant_zpsd8b367e5.jpg.html)

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/ValJaveAAR_zpsfb116e40.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/ValJaveAAR_zpsfb116e40.jpg.html)

ancientaviator62

1st Sep 2013, 09:11

Alex,
glad to hear that a new book about the 'Jav' is in the offing. I worked on them (Mk 7 and 9) on 33 at Middleton St George as an Air Radar Mech. It was an 'interesting' a/c for both aircrew and groundcrew ! As I recall we had cartridge starters for our a/c except for the T bird which was Avpin and a smaller 'banger'. Several instances of the system opening up the belly on start up as the banger exploded. And of the spare banger in the stowage going of when the a/c was taxyiing. 'Them was the days' !

WH904

1st Sep 2013, 09:27

The Javelins that I'd really like to see much more of, are the exotic RAE aircraft. The famous red and white FAW9 XH897 was photographed beautifully whilst in service but the photos seem to have disappeared without trace - I last saw them in Adrian Balch's "Testing Colours" book. Then of course there's the beautiful flourescent orange XA778. A top class photo was taken of this machine by Glosters, on roll-out, but I haven't seen the photo for many years (I think it was in an issue of "Air Inernational" many years back).

Even more obscure was the other RAE machine (the serial escapes me at the moment) which was painted mostly white, with various other colours applied at different times. Never, ever see photos of this aircraft :(

Alex Crawford

1st Sep 2013, 09:31

Hi guys,

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.

CoffmanStarter and fareastdriver thanks for posting the photos. These are the first air-to air refuelling ones I've seen. Very interesting.

ancientaviator62, if there's any particular instance you remember while with 33 Sqn I'd love to hear about it. First hand accounts really let the reader know what it was like to fly/maintain these aircraft, rather than the official blurb.

I'd be interested in the AAEE/RAE colour schemes as well. They would make great colour side view drawings.

Regards,

Alex
[email protected]

Fitter2

1st Sep 2013, 09:35

As I recall we had cartridge starters for our a/c except for the T bird which
was Avpin and a smaller 'banger'

Other way round, surely. All the 60/64 Sqn Mk9 I saw off were avpin. Startup with the bottom panel off to put out the avpin fire if it went wrong, then 18 (or was it 20?) Dzus fasteners to secure the panel with two Sapphires whining away, at night, on a scramble. Happy days, but I don't think the Tiger beer consumption has dimmed the memory totally.

Whereas the cartridge T3s disappeared in a cloud of smoke on start.

NutherA2

1st Sep 2013, 09:41

cartridge starters for our a/c except for the T bird which was Avpin

Other way round, AA62, Javelins Mk 1 to 6 used cartridges, the bigger engines fitted to the FAW7, 8 & 9 had the avpin starters.

ancientaviator62

1st Sep 2013, 11:31

Thanks for the correction ref the bangers/avpin chaps. My Javelin memories may well be partially merging with the Hunter/Lightning ones. Funny old thing memory ! I also seem to recall a Javelin landing at night in the barrier at Leeming when ATC left it up at both ends !.

Alex Crawford

1st Sep 2013, 12:07

Hi AA62,

Javelin could have been this one on 2 March 1961. Don't have crew details yet.

XA752, FAW.4, 72 Sqn. Hitbarrier on approach at night and undercarriage leg collapsed on landing,Leeming. Not repaired.

Alex

Shackman

1st Sep 2013, 13:53

Air Clues had a good article in the 'I learnt about flying' series about how (not) to loop a Javelin which for some reason always stuck in my mind - mainly 'cos I knew one of the guys involved. I think it was a mid '70's edition, but could have been later.

Tankertrashnav

1st Sep 2013, 17:17

I was at Seletar when the Javelins were at Tengah. Seletar's runway divided the station into East Camp and West Camp, with a road crossing controlled by lights.

One night with the runway closed and unlit an airman was sauntering across the runway back to his billet when all of a sudden a Javelin appeared out of the darkness, screamed over his head and landed shortly down the runway, eventually coming safely to a halt shortly before the far threshold.

Can't remember the reason for this, but as Tengah was only a few miles to the west there must have been a pressing reason to get on the ground. Certainly stirred the airman up a bit :eek:

Rosevidney1

1st Sep 2013, 20:34

The Javelin had to carry a reduced number of rounds for its cannon as they could cook off under certain circumstances with the resultant effect of injuring the back seater whose feet were in close proximity.

bcgallacher

1st Sep 2013, 21:53

Were the cannon not mounted well outboard? Perhaps the belted ammunition extended as far as the fuselage?

bcgallacher

1st Sep 2013, 21:59

Just had a look at a cutaway drawing - ammunition bays were outboard in the wings - a cooked off 30 mm would have removed the wing before it damaged the back seaters feet!

ancientaviator62

2nd Sep 2013, 07:41

I suspect the Nav Rad was more at risk from an explosion in the starter system !
When I was on 30 Sqn (Hercules) one of the pilots had flown the Javelin, with 33. He and I had several discussions about aspects of the a/c. He said that the first time he fired the guns at night he was blind for a week ! He also diverted into Heathrow with an emergency. The RAF sent the groundcrew and spares down by train including a container of Avpin ! I should have remembered this story before I mixed up the various starting systems.
The president of 30 Sqn Association had tested the Javelin when it was to be introduced into service. He was not very complimentary about Glosters when I asked him about his experiences.
A very good read about the Javelin is 'The Quick and the Dead' by Bill Waterman

Davita

2nd Sep 2013, 09:55

As I read here about the trouble Javelin pilots had with the A/C I commiserate a little.
During confrontation between UK and Indonesia, about merdeka for Malaya, I was an F/E on 48 Sqn Hastings doing supply drops in the Borneo jungle.
We were normally escorted by Javelins who, presumably, would direct fire from us and deal with the enemy.
On one such mission we were dropping live animals to the Gurkhas. We navigated to the balloon they sent up midst the forest trees when we were shot up by an TNI machine gunner. Our Hastings profusely leaked Avgas from both wings, and a Gurkha soldier down the back was injured, so we made an emergency landing in Kuching.
The Javelin escort landed behind us and, understandably angry, we enquired..."Where the **** were you?'
He said he couldn't fly as slow as us so he did a couple of circuits, at his speed, and didn't see the event.
We blamed everyone else for being so stupid to have something like a Javelin run escort for a drop speed Hasting..Jeez.. we used to drop at _130K which is probably below Vstall for an A-frame aircraft like a Javelin.
We shook hands and had a beer!
The local, and eventually extremely loyal, Dyaks found the perpretators and chopped off their heads.
Our Sqn Cmdr (S/L), later promoted of course, dutifully went to Kuching to present the 48 Sqn Plaque, and a couple bags of rice, to the headman of the Dyak tribe....and take pictures.
Today, somewhere in Sarawak, there is 48 Sqn memorabilia.

Ironically, I've been married to my gorgeous Indonesian wife for 26 years and live in Bali, Indonesia...so let us not even talk about 'sleeping with the enemy'.:oh:

Alex Crawford

2nd Sep 2013, 21:29

Hi,

Thanks for everyones input. It makes for very interesting reading.

Alex

chiglet

2nd Sep 2013, 21:49

I was in Kuching when a round "cooked off" in a Javelin whilst on Finals, cleared the runway [09, so straight to dispersal] fireman no1 runs under the wing with hosepipe, fireman no2 climbs onto wing to "help" the crew. Another round cooks off. Gun panel misses No1 by inches, but bins no2 off the wing, breaking his leg. This was late 1964/early 1965 I believe that the Javelin was a write off. [I was at 487 SU at the time]

Fitter2

3rd Sep 2013, 08:12

Possibly happened, but not between June '64 and May '65. I was on 60/64 at Kuching then, except for a couple of weeks leave in Feb 65 and would certainly have heard about it, and noticed another dead Javelin. The only write-off during that time was an avpin fire on start up after an engine change; we robbed all the useful bits off it and left it on the South pan. I guess it was scrapped when we left.

I was in Kuching when a round "cooked off" in a Javelin whilst on Finals,
cleared the runway [09, so straight to dispersal] fireman no1 runs under the
wing with hosepipe, fireman no2 climbs onto wing to "help" the crew. Another
round cooks off. Gun panel misses No1 by inches, but bins no2 off the wing,
breaking his leg. This was late 1964/early 1965 I believe that the Javelin was a
write off. [I was at 487 SU at the time]

Arclite01

3rd Sep 2013, 08:40

ORAC

3rd Sep 2013, 08:49

When I was in the Air Cadets our Chairman was an Ex-Javelin pilot - Ian Cosby DFC I think................. He told a tale of spinning the Javelin and not recovering - not sure if it was true. I had a boss for a while, Sqn Ldr Bob Bonus, who was an ex-Javelin Nav, who had a lot of stories. Amongst these was the fact that the Javelin could not be recovered from a flat spin (tailplane blanking from the wing?).

There was then an occasion when the navigator ejected in such a situation and his ejection pushed the nose down and the pilot recovered from the spin. The aircraft notes where then altered to state that in the event of a flat spin the pilot was to order the navigator to eject.....

He also explained how the Nav could reach the control runs and if he was bored and wanted to go home it wasn't unknown to give the odd tug until the pilot reported control problems and recovered. There must have been a lot of fitters doing long night shifts investigating phantom control restrictions so that the Nav could get a pint before the bar shut......

teeteringhead

3rd Sep 2013, 10:34

He told a tale of spinning the Javelin and not recovering I guess it would be scary in a spin.

ISTR an ex-Jav Nav who came onto helicopters - one Tom "Paddy" Harrison (RIP) - telling me that the FRCs said something like:

If positive Spin Recovery Action not achieved by 25 000 ft - abandon the aircraft! :eek:

CoffmanStarter

3rd Sep 2013, 11:42

Arclite01 ...

He was West Malling based - were Javelins ever there ??

Certainly were ...

85 Squadron 1959 -1960 operating FAW2, FAW6, FAW8, T3 variants.

Pic here ...

RAF West Malling Javelin FAW6 XA815 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1044473/)

More Javelin pics on that site if you click the 85 Squadron Link :ok:

Also knew a chap (sadly no longer with us) who had experienced a spin ... his only comment ... "It didn't know it's a$$ from its nose ... a bit like me at the time". :eek: