Student Night Flying

[zoeimogen]

Is there a point at which it is too soon to contemplate Night flying as a student? I would quite like to get the night qualification as part of my basic PPL and now is obviously the right time of year to start night flying, but I'm worried it's too soon for myself as a pilot, as I have no idea how different night and day flying are.

I'm doing circuits at the moment but not yet solo - would it be best to wait?

TIA

[dublinpilot]

I would say that you shouldn't mix day and night circuits. Wait until you are comfortable at circuits and navigation before attempting to do them at night.

[Pace]

TIA

If you are not even yet solo forget it! You need at least a PPL before starting a night rating and I would add a good dose of instrument flying too but some would disagree!

Night and day are very different for many many reasons get your PPL first!

Pace

[nimsu1987]

The fact that you're worried it's a little too soon means it is too soon ;). I'd suggest you get your PPL, get some experience and more confidence and you'll know when you're ready. Instrument scanning technique and the big one for me, recognising disorientation and how to deal with it (in poorly lit areas) are all a must too :). Not something you should be worrying about too much yet while you're still working towards your PPL

[RTN11]

If someone wanted to combine the night qualification in the PPL, I would do it after they have covered navigation, towards the end of the course.

The main difference at night is in the landing, so ultimately you need to be able to land safely and consistently during the day before you can even start doing so at night. A good intro to night is to start doing circuits just before sunset, and finish about 20-30 mins after official night, you get to see the gradual change which can really bring out the main points you are trying to cover.

At night it is more difficult to judge your height above the runway while you flare which leads to a tenancy to round out high. It is also more difficult to judge terrain clearance, so you need a good idea of what perspective you are looking for on the runway with the lighting available, preferably backing this up with PAPI or something similar early on. All of these things really need a good rooted appreciation of the day approach.

Navigation at night is the same as it is during the day, you just have to select suitable waypoints which are visible at night - not a lake or a forest, preferably a nice big town. This is only touched on in the night rating, the main focus is on the landings.

[FlyingStone]

Some people (like me) tend to treat night VFR flight basically the same as IFR flight. You can't see the clouds, you can't see the terrain, you can get all kinds of different illusions, navigation is completely different, some methods of judging flare height that work at day won't work at night, etc.

And on top of that, as Pace says, you should get some instrument training before considering night qualification (though I think it's rating now under Part FCL), because at night you can't control attitude with just looking outside, since most times you don't have a clear horizon - you have to use the attitude indicator. And looking at the attitude indicator correctly is not something you can become proficient in that quick.

While you can (by law) get a night qualification/rating during your PPL training, anyone with just a tiny bit of common sense would highly recommend against doing it.

[bagurxvi]

I was thinking in Europe the night VFR was not allowed . There is any change ?

[RTN11]

I was thinking in Europe the night VFR was not allowed . There is any change ?

Indeed. Under EASA night VFR is now allowed, as it pretty much was in the UK beforehand with a night qualification. CAP 804 FCL.810 refers

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP804rfs.pdf

I wouldn't say it's that difficult, obviously you have to pick your night a little more carefully with consideration for cloud, but on a clear night it's just as easy as day flying and you're certainly not looking at the attitude indicator all the time, you're looking out the window. Navigation can be far easier as every town will stand out from miles away, and each town's shape stands out so way it's very simple. However, if you're in a vastly unpopulated area you can very quickly find yourself with no useful point of reference for navigation, so again this just takes a little more planning than day VFR.

[wb9999]

Pace, it's not correct that you need a PPL before a night rating. The 5 hours flying to qualify for a night rating can be part of the minimum 45 hours flying needed for the PPL, so 40 hours can be day and 5 hours night.

This is how I did my PPL, and I believe this is quite common.

As to whether it is sensible, well that is another point altogether. Although, I actually found it more enjoyable flying at night - and safer, as most GA flyers are out of the sky.

[BackPacker]

I was thinking in Europe the night VFR was not allowed . There is any change ?

Actually the situation was very muddled, and EASA has brought all countries in line.

In the UK Night VFR was only allowed within a control zone or something like that. Outside the control zones you had to fly IFR at night. BUT you could fly IFR without an IR as long as you maintained VMC. And this was only allowed, obviously, if you held an NQ. For all practical purposes, now that NVFR is going to be allowed in the UK, nothing much will changed there, with the possible exception of the various VFR/VMC minima you have to adhere to. (And which are incredibly hard to judge at night, and not enforceable at all.)

In a few other countries, including the Netherlands, NVFR was forbidden as part of the airspace policy. Flying at night can only be done under IFR, and requires a full IR and an IFR flight plan. And that will continue to be the case under EASA. At least, that's how things stand today, as far as I know.

As far as doing it as part of the PPL is concerned, yes, that's entirely possible. But it's only sensible to do the NVFR bits well at the end of your course. It requires a different skill set. Landings are harder, but for the en-route phase you will also want to be very proficient in using radio navigation and such.

Furthermore, night flying - even considering that there are less aircraft in the sky to hit - is significantly more challenging (and thus, potentially more dangerous) than day flying. Navigation is harder, it's easier to end up in IMC conditions, and even in VMC you've got to worry about optical illusions such as false horizons. When the engine quits there's far less chance of a good outcome, there are far less alternates available if there's a minor emergency, and so on and so forth.

So if you are progressing well with your PPL training, and it looks like you'll be ready for the skills test in less than 45 hours, by all means go ahead and use the remaining hours to get some night experience and possibly the NQ. But if you are a normal student who will not be able to get up to standard in the minimum 45 hours, you might as well leave it for now, and do the NQ in a few years time when you've got your PPL and a little more experience.

[thing]

Although, I actually found it more enjoyable flying at night - and safer, as most GA flyers are out of the sky. Indeed, I would agree, that's one advantage of flying in crap weather as well, at least all the bimblers are safely on the ground.

I did my Night qual as soon as I could, same with the IMC. I never considered (obviously this is my personal opinion) that my 'flying license' was complete until I had the night and IMC; I was still under training as far as I was concerned until I'd passed the IMC test.

[dublinpilot]

Actually the situation was very muddled, and EASA has brought all countries in line.
I'm not sure if it has brought all into line! It seems that we still have a lot of countries allowing VFR at night and a lot of countries not allowing VFR at night!

Unfortunately it seems that I'm in one that doesn't allow it :sad:

[Big Pistons Forever]

The main difference at night is in the landing,

Navigation at night is the same as it is during the day, you just have to select suitable waypoints which are visible at night - not a lake or a forest, preferably a nice big town. This is only touched on in the night rating, the main focus is on the landings.

Personally I think the night rating is one of the worst taught ratings in GA. Everything is different at night starting with flight planning, how to do the walk around, cockpit organization, taxing, correct light use on the ground, flight path management at night (especially for takeoff), terrain clearance and weather avoidance, reliance on instruments etc etc etc.

The ability to confidently fly solely by reference to instruments is IMO a non optional requirement to safe night flight.

Night carries significantly higher risks which is why there is such a terrible GA night accident rate (up to 25 times higher probability of a fatal accident). A proper night flying rating should address the risk for every part of the flight and have clear and concrete training on how identify and then ameliorate those extra risks.

The night rating should be a lot more then a bunch of circuits and off you go !

[Pace]

BPF

I agree with every word you say hence my opinion that the night rating should be an extra to the IMCR an IMC-NR.
The fact that a student pilot who does not even have a PPL can start training for the night rating beggars belief.
A real cart before the horse rating as it stands.

Pace

[RTN11]

Personally I think the night rating is one of the worst taught ratings in GA. Everything is different at night starting with flight planning, how to do the walk around, cockpit organization, taxing, correct light use on the ground, flight path management at night (especially for takeoff), terrain clearance and weather avoidance, reliance on instruments etc etc etc.

Very true, but most of this can be covered in the groundschool.

The course is 5 hours minimum, and most people are doing it on a budget so that's all they want, the minimum. Most will hardly use the rating, and only do it as the pre-entry requirement for CPL, in fact I've known students do the rating in early autumn, just after sunset where it's hardly dark at all and that doesn't really prove anything.

For a student to make the most of their night qualification, they would need something more, but the night qual on a basic PPL only permits night VFR, on the premise they remain in VMC, so it's still a restrictive rating in terms of the type of night/weather you are going to go up in.

The minimum syllabus only covers 5 hours, including 1 hour of nav, that is why I say it is only touched on, as circuits are the main focus and the only solo requirements is the 5 solo landings. Clearly the people who write the laws think that the landings are more important than the nav.

[Cockpit Meercat]

Flying at night is awsome but ask yourself a question!
If you was flying towards a cloud you probably wouldn't see it until you was in it so how would you handle that situation?

The answer should be calmly and exactly as you was taught however even the more experienced pilots get that buzz feeling in the stomach when it happens unexpectedly and that should be where the training kicks in!

I had a passenger go into a panic whilst climing out of Blackpool 1 night when all the lights went out, Then he insisted i was flying in the wrong direction!
I laughed him off and proceded but on a serious note that could of caused a few problems if i let it.

Im not sure i would of had that calm reaction if i didn't already have an IMCr and would rather see the night qual come after IMCr in the chain but thats not the case as yet.

Moral of the story, Enjoy it but Respect it because it can become bad for your health if you don't!!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Clearly the people who write the laws think that the landings are more important than the nav.
Well if you've done the IMCr you can navigate without being able to see anything out of the window, and as you appear to need instrument flying skills in order to fly in the dark it seems logical to me to do the IMCr before the night rating, so the nav isn't that big a deal. Being surprised at colliding with the runway when you thought you were still six feet up is, it seems to me!

(From the viewpoint of having an IMCr, having done some of the lessons at night, but not having a night rating, because I don't fancy an engine failure at night.)

[A and C]

From an instructional point of view just as I won't let a student solo during daytime without having first done enough navigation training to get to a nearby airfield should the runway become blocked, I would also apply the same criteria to night flying.

With the very different challenges of night navigation to that of daytime I think that it is very unlikely that it would be safe to send a student solo at night until the final stages of the PPL training and even then I would advise caution.

[nimsu1987]

Cockpit meercat. No offense meant but your theory sounds like microsoft flight simulator material.

[rats404]

Interesting thread.

I tend to agree with Pace. I've recently gained my IMC rating, and am just about to start the training for my night qualification.

It seemed to me to be the most logical progression.

[thing]

Congrats on the IMC, I did my night qual in the middle of the IMC training, I wanted to be confident on instruments first as well. Mind you I only use the night qual as an options extender should daylight become an issue; my own risk assesment doesn't include purposefully planning and going places at night.

[Level Attitude]

When applying for a new Rating you now have to apply for your paper EASA
license at the same time.
As far as I am aware it is NOT currently possible to add an IMC / IR(R) to an existing EASA License - it can only be "Grandfathered" if you hold it on a UK Issued JAR or UK License.
Therefore do your IMC Rating FiRST and your new EASA License will have it (IR(R)) on it - "Granfathered" from the date of your test.

The possibility of adding new IR(R)s to an existing EASA License is still under
discussion - but EASA are not keen on National Ratings.

[riverrock83]

As far as I am aware it is NOT currently possible to add an IMC / IR(R) to an existing EASA License - it can only be "Grandfathered" if you hold it on a UK Issued JAR or UK License.
Therefore do your IMC Rating FiRST and your new EASA License will have it (IR(R)) on it - "Granfathered" from the date of your test.

The possibility of adding new IR(R)s to an existing EASA License is still under
discussion - but EASA are not keen on National Ratings.
See my summary here: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/494002-jaa-fcl-ppl-imcr-still-possible.html#post7381780

It doesn't explicitly say that you can't add an IR(r) before April 2014 to an FCL licence (just that you can't do it after that date).

However the latest blurb suggests there may be some sort of conversion to a full IR from a pilot who has an IMCR (on a non-EASA licence - ie - one to fly Annex 2 aircraft) due to experience.
See http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/429675-easa-threat-operation-n-reg-aircraft-46.html#post7495774 (I haven't read the original document).
Personally I'd want it written in stone as to what I would get if I did an IMCR before 2014 on my (hopefully soon to get) Part-FCL licence before investing the time & money. Good luck in contacting CAA though - they are still a bit snowed under with conversions at the moment I believe.

[zoeimogen]

Thanks all - I shall be leaving the night flying for a while based on the feedback I've had! (Probably means 3 weeks between lessons, but that's winter for you)