Lancaster W4270 Crew Remembered

[nvubu]

I stumbled across this moving tribute to the crew of Lancaster W4270, lost on 18 February 1943, and with Remembrance Day approaching, it seems appropriate to share this here.

Per Purum Tonantes on Vimeo

[si.]

It's not often I'm lost for words, but I am now......

Thank you for posting this, and let's hope they, and all the other crews are never forgotten.

[Whopity]

There is a memorial in the centre of the cemetery at Thure in central France to the crews of two Lancaster aircraft which collided on a bombing raid just short of their target at Chatellerault. Both aircraft came from different airfields in Lincolnshire. One pilot survived, and returned to England, the remaining 13 crew members are buried at Thure. The village war memorial is located near the centre of the village in a triangle named as "Place des Aviateurs" (http://goo.gl/maps/K9GxR) Details of the two aircraft were on www.lostbombers.co.uk but that site is no longer maintained.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43823021/Lanc-Thure.jpg

[jackrussell]

As a member of the research team who carried out the Lancaster W4270 project, can I thank you for listing our short film here. Our aim was to preserve the memory of this young training crew and the film came about quite by accident. It was made with no script, no budget and no chance of retakes primarily for the relatives of the men who couldn't attend the Rededication Day for one reason or another. The media student who made it became so taken with the stories he heard on that day he decided to get as much recorded as he could. Our only regret is we didn't get more footage of the wonderful veterans.

We are so pleased it is still being seen several years later and this re-enforces our choice to make it available to everyone and to get the important messages it contains across. 'We will Remember them'.

[Al R]

Did Air Gunners receive any recognition (aces, etc) if they shot down a certain number of fighters? With hindsight, were Air Gunners especially effective given the fact they 'just' had .303s?

[Taphappy]

nvubu

What a wonderful story and a tribute to perseverence. There are crash sites all over the UK which could probably tell similar tales if only they could be investigated.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Air Gunners with a few kills were sometimes made Officers and given a medal of some sort. I researched the death of the brother of a family friend on his third mission. He had taken the place of a successful air gunner because of the latter's promotion.

[Wensleydale]

With hindsight, were Air Gunners especially effective given the fact they
'just' had .303s?


There was a proposal made towards the end of the war (my bad memory states from AVRO?) to remove all the gun turrets from the Lancaster - it was believed that the weight saved would increase top speed significantly and lower losses would result (and save the lives of 2 redundant air gunners in the process). The evidence used was the lower level of Mosquito loss.

This was turned down by the air ministry who believed that this was a move too far. However, the 5 man crew concept was taken up in the deign of the Vulcan when design work started shortly after. (The FE became a Co-pilot again; the Bomb-Aimer became the Radar-Nav and the Wireless Op became the AEO).

[Al R]

Fox3, was that the award of a DFM which was more often than not linked to missions which was probably related to the amount of kills you got too?

W, I suppose sending bombers over without protection wouldn't have been too good for morale up front! It'd be interesting to know just how many fighters were shot down by AG. Beaufighters with fuel tanks.. I wonder if they could have worked as escorts.

[Wensleydale]

Beaufighters with fuel tanks.. I wonder if they could have worked as
escorts


Beaufighters were used in early Serrate operations but did not have the legs to escort all the way to Berlin. Eventually, Serrate operations were carried out in Mosquitoes, but with competition for airframes, old MkII Mosquitoes were converted instead of later faster, and more reliable marks. Read "Pursuit Through Darkened Skies" for the auto-biography of one of the serrate Navigators - a very good book.

[rolling20]

Im not sure who it was, possibly RV Jones or Tizard who computed that a Heavy Bomber without turrets and extra crew members could have had an increase of 50mph to its speed. That would give the Lanc an estimated max speed of 335-340mph, which would have been more than adequate to see off the twin engined nightfighters of the day, plus it would have given them an advantage of being more manouverable.
I don't think the idea was ever seriously considered by Bomber Command , as discussions had taken place in Jan 1943 on equipping Lancasters with a mixture of .303 / .5 and 20mm cannons! By the end of the war 1 Group were fitting their own design of a turret with .5inch guns as the Official channels were not getting heavier calibre turrets fitted onto aircraft. I also doubt that production could be interrupted to adjust for non turret bombers.

As for Gunners being Commissioned, I dont think there was any hard and fast rule. A lot depended on survival and also (DARE I SAY IT!) of being Officer material. Our Admin Officer on UWAS was a rear gunner on lancs 1942-3, shot down a couple and asked to be put up for a commision, as lots of Commonwealth gunners on his squadron were being Commissioned. (This appeared to be Commonwealth policy) His pilot, who was also the CO, said 'wait until you've done a few more trips'. He was eventually Commissioned as a P/O. One 4Group Air Gunner even ended up as a Squadron Commander!

[staircase]

During my service in the early '70s, I worked with a number of ex bomber aircrew.

I mentioned that the Lanc would have gone so much higher and faster without gun turrets.

They thought that was not what would have happened.

Their opinion was that if the basic airframe was so much lighter, then the airstaff, given the conditions at the time, would have only increased the payload and sent them off to take their chances with the unarmed bomber.

I think I am inclined to agree.

[nvubu]

I've just watched this film again, and it has, once more, brought a lump to my throat.

As quoted in the film (17:26)

When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today

I'd like to thank jackrussell and the research team that he was a member of for making this film, as he said, this hasn't been made by professionals, but it is certainly very professionally made.

"We will Remember Them"

[polecat2]

Did Air Gunners receive any recognition (aces, etc) if they shot down a certain number of fighters? With hindsight, were Air Gunners especially effective given the fact they 'just' had .303s?

At least one air gunner achieved ace status (5 or more kills) - Flt Lt Wallace McIntosh of 207 Sqdn. His story is told in "Gunning for the Enemy" by Mel Rolfe and still available from the big river. He started as a sgt and did two tours on 207.

After reading both volumes of "Nachtjagd - The Luftwaffe Night Fighter War Diaries 1942-45" by Theo Boiten it would seem the .303 turrets were not as ineffective as I was led to believe. Once the gunners were aware of the fighter's presence a well co-ordinated crew could make life very difficult for the attacker and those .303 guns were responsible for a lot of kills or casualties due to damage caused. The night fighters needed to treat the bombers with respect.

[Dengue_Dude]

Very moving, thank you.

I had cause to visit many Bomber Command CWGC sites around Mailly le Camp near Chalons in France. It was moving to see how the local French populace still tended and respected the graves of all these young men.

One day they will be forgotten, but thankfully not yet. It's sad that these guys had to wait 65 years for a National memorial.

[Al R]

This Friday, a time capsule containing the name, rank and service number of all the aircrew of RAF Bomber Command will be buried at the Memorial.

[jackrussell]

Thanks again for your kind words about our research. We still ourselves are amazed at the amount of information that could be gleaned from one small piece of wreckage. Thank goodness the piece the Farmer saved for 56 years was one with serial numbers on it or it could have been a different story, although his initial description of it possibly being a Wellington threw us for a while. I can't describe how reading through the pile of Bomber Command Losses books twice focuses you on the scale of loss involved.

For me personally this has been the most rewarding and interesting project I've ever undertaken, and to meet the relatives and be able to fill in the gaps for them a huge privilege. 7 remembered by us, but huge interest by others now in preserving the memories of other crews both here and abroad, and long may it continue, after all they paid the ultimate sacrifice.

[rolling20]

Whether or not .303 was effective, or if .5 or 20mm cannons would have made a difference (had they been available )is debatable in the second half of the war.
The Peenemunde raid of August 17/18 1943 saw the first use by the Luftwaffe of Schräge Musik ( Jazz Music). These were twin upward firing cannon which were invariably fired into the bombers fuel tanks and thus fatal. Bomber Command was at first unaware of this weapon , but had no real answer to it. Early Lancs had a dorsal turret, but these were removed. Only 6 Group ( Canadian) used a downward firing machine gun as protection.
This weapon took a dreadful toll of Bomber Command aircraft and allowed Luftwaffe pilots to rack up huge 'kills'.

Freeman Dyson who was an analyst for Operational Research of Bomber Command , commented on the effectiveness of Schräge Musik:

'The cause of losses... killed novice and expert crews impartially. This result contradicted the official dogma... I blame the ORS (Operational Research) and I blame myself in particular, for not taking this result seriously enough... If we had taken the evidence more seriously, we might have discovered Schräge Musik in time to respond with effective countermeasures' .

[Wensleydale]

Early Lancs had a dorsal turret, but these were removed. Only 6 Group (
Canadian) used a downward firing machine gun as protection.


Not strictly true... The first six Manchesters delivered (207 Sqn at Waddington) had a retractable "ventral" (underneath) turret, but these were soon removed because they were heavy and, when extended, they considerably reduced aircraft speed. (Weight was a big issue with the Manchester). The ventral turrets in these early aircraft were rarely manned during operations and were eventually replaced by a Stirling type dorsal (mid-upper) turret. This gun arrangement was retained in the Lancaster with a new type of mid-upper turret. This turret was occassionally removed to save weight when carrying special ordnance such as the Grand Slam and the Bouncing Bomb.

Not only the Canadians experimented with an under gun. 467 Sqn at Waddington (5 Gp) tried out a single Browning .50 firing through an underfloor hatch. The guns and ammunition were sourced through robbing any 8th USAAF bombers that diverted in! It is believed that the Sqn's gunnery officer was killed when these experiments were being carried out (he was the 8th member of a crew on a few occassions and listed in the F540 as "under gunner"). However, the trials were not successful and the practice was stopped.

Schrage Musik was very difficult to detect because it did not use tracer ammunition (although the night fighter crew saw a faint green glow from behind the round), and Lancasters just seemed to explode in mid air leading to the "scarecrow round" rumours. Luftwaffe pilots deliberately aimed between the Lancasters' engines to hit the fuel tanks but avoid causing an explosion in the bomb-bay with incresed risk to the attacking aircraft underneath. It was said that the humane night fighter plots attacked the port wing, while the ardent Nazis attacked the starboard - the Lancaster main door was on the starboard side, and a wing fire on this side of the aircraft decreased the crew's chance of a successful bale out even further.

By the end of the war, 1 Gp Lancasters had a rear turret fitted with twin .5" brownings and radar direction (known as "Vilage Inn"). However, discussions to fit .5"" all round led to the conclusion that this would increase aircraft weight and reduce payload. However, 20mm cannon appeared in the Lancaster replacement, the Lincoln, mid-upper turret in 1946.

[rolling20]

I myself ,am not quoting ad verbatim, except on my quote on Freeman Dyson.
Now if we are being pedantic, pre war Wellingtons were also fitted with a dorsal turret.

[racedo]

One day they will be forgotten, but thankfully not yet.

Not for at least another 100 years maybe even longer than that.

[jackrussell]

Our Lancaster W4270 Memorial and other aviation related items are listed here in this free guide to Aviation History in Nottinghamshire http://www.ukairfields.org.uk/uploads/7/0/8/5/7085670/aviation_in_notts.pdf a useful guide for any enthusiasts.

[jackrussell]

Placing the Poppy Wreath on Remembrance Day at the Lancaster W4270 Memorial Remembrance Day 2012 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://flic.kr/p/dsoeqR)