Don't Mess With Texas!

[SASless]

Just saw this article....seems a Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Officer engaged a fleeing vehicle by firing a weapon from a helicopter that was assisting a Texas Game Warden who was in a high speed pursuit.

Two dead...one Wounded....investigation continues!


This is going to turn into a real Bucket of Worms for all concerned I fear!


My Way News - 2 dead after flying trooper fires at vehicle (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20121026/DA24VK402.html)

[Gomer Pylot]

It's Texas. The only problems are for the persons being shot. The worst that could happen to the cops is paid leave during the investigation.

[John R81]

Would prefer that we did the same in UK.

High-speed car chases are risky for all those in the vacinity on the ground. Well-aimed gunfire is risky only for those refusing to stop.

[Ian Corrigible]

A good advert for gunnery simulation training!

http://verticalmag.com/images/online_features/reality_check/lead.jpg


I/C

[hueyracer]

Can´t see anything wrong in this.....

:ok:

[500N]

"Can´t see anything wrong in this....."

+ 1

Agreed.

Might cause a slight change of attitude to those thinking of running.

.

[500N]

I think the communications between everyone would have everyone
a bit more informed than "oh look, that car is speeding away from the
game ranger, let's shoot it up and stop it".

[Max Contingency]

Taking someones life (other than through due legal process) should only be a last resort when there is an immediate threat to the life of others. Engaging from a helicopter in circumstances like this will always be controversial because there are limited opportunities for the target to surrender and because most (all?) law enforcement agencies require their officers to issue a warning before opening fire, if time permits. It would be interesting to see their rules of engagement here.

[PANews]

As those of you that either know first hand or read from research the US expectation is that they will do it one day so they regularly train with live firing for the occasion. Hence the addition of the firing element to the American Europter simulator [as above image].

Some US police units [LAPD for instasnce] train for it, buy special equipment for it [the Tyler utility mount] and train regularly for air to ground firing and 'pop up' attacks on high rise buildings with officers exposed to full view sitting on the Tyler Mount. All designed to increase accuracy and reduce the spray effect of any firearm discharged in this manner.

The average UK police officer would never give the scenario a thought, let alone train for it. But plenty of other nations do it - who cares if a few peasants collect the strays?

It was with that mindset that I asked LAPD whether they had ever used any of the air firing tactics in living memory.

No, never.

So some do and some do not.

It seems to be placed in the same category as dropping Scuba divers off the skids of Bell 412s from 20 feet. It looks great on film but there might be less blue on blue injuries if you actually do it from 20 inches and save them getting clouted on the back of the head by the air tank. Unnecessary risks.

[rick1128]

Please keep in mind this is the south border area. Both sides of the border are infested with extremely well armed drug gangs. And by well armed I mean an AK47 is considered a minimum weapon. Peace Officers in the border areas have to deal with this every day. Recently Mexico had to send their army into one of their border states to bring the level of chaos down a couple of levels.

So those of you who do not live in this area, we have to live with it. The officers involved did their job and did it well. Unfortunately, the politicians, local, state and federal will sell them down the river to win votes.

[Devil 49]

I would think that a basic tenet of a rational use of deadly force would be to prevent further violence to self or the public. A high speed chase puts everybody in it's path at risk. The peace officers in pursuit are demanding that the speeding vehicle stop, lights, siren, etc. Most pursuits start as a less threatening situation that the pursued driver wishes to avoid the consequences of, and consciously decides on a hazardous behavior. The vehicle at that point is potentially a weapon. It's purely a choice that the driver makes, and can reverse at any point. It's a credit to the professional peace officers that more high speed pursuit perps aren't killed.

I also believe that a lot of high speed pursuits are not rationally justified, presenting too great a hazard to the public, peace officers, and the idiots driving the pursued vehicles. I didn't mention felons or suspected felons driving the pursued vehicles, because that's a whole different scenario outside my experience. 11 MPH above the speed limit isn't automatically a deadly hazard to the public, but I have seen it become one with a stupid driver in a very fast car.

[GS Pilot]

DPS helicopter opens fire during chase; 2 dead - The Monitor: Local News (http://www.themonitor.com/news/local/article_db567d9c-1f01-11e2-9e9f-001a4bcf6878.html)

This facts presented in this article are in line with most of what I've heard peer to peer. Let the investigation reveal whether the trooper was justified. My guess is that he is going to live with some regrets.

[Pappa Smurf]

It doesnt say they were killed from bullets fired at them.Maybe tyres shot out,or similar then crashed,
2 killed,1 injured and 6 arrested. Total of 9 in the car going for a pinic in the park---------sure.
Sends a message out---------dont run.
Probably saved the life of innocent people down the road further.

[SASless]

Let me guess....maybe one US Citizen in the bunch.:mad:

[PANews]

It probably does not help that in this instance the Los Angeles Times has reported that the occupants of the truck were SUSPECTED of drug running but that no drugs were found after the incident.

Lots of stuff for an inclined politician to use against the police in that outcome.

As stated above policing in the UK and Texas are worlds apart but if shooting was acceptable punishment for just running away I will have had over 50 instances on my hands so perhaps it was a good job they only gave me a lump of wood to protect myself - and hand out retribution.

A world apart.

[XV666]

2 Dead after Texas trooper shoots at vehicle from helicopter during high speed chase (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-dead-after-texas-trooper-shoots-at-vehicle-from-helicopter-during-high-speed-chase/2012/10/25/0de4bf08-1f16-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html): Washington Post


Texas trooper who fired from helicopter was trying to disable pickup truck during deadly chase

LA JOYA, Texas — A Texas state trooper who fired on a pickup truck from a helicopter during a deadly chase through the desert was trying to disable the vehicle and suspected it was being used to smuggle drugs, authorities said Friday.

The disclosure came a day after the incident left two illegal immigrants from Guatemala dead on an isolated gravel road near the town of La Joya, just north of the Mexico border.

State game wardens were the first to encounter the truck Thursday. After the driver refused to stop, they radioed for help and state police responded, according to Parks and Wildlife Department spokesman Mike Cox.

When the helicopter with a sharpshooter arrived, officers concluded that the truck appeared to be carrying a “typical covered drug load” on its bed and was travelling at reckless speeds, police said.

After the shots were fired and the truck’s tires blown out, the driver lost control and crashed into a ditch.

Eight people who were in the truck were arrested. At least seven of them were also from Guatemala. No drugs were found.

The sharpshooter was placed on administrative leave, a standard procedure after such incidents.

An expert on police chases said the decision to fire on the truck was “a reckless act” that served “no legitimate law enforcement purpose.”

“In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn’t seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter,” said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if “you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants.”

In general, he said, law enforcement agencies allow the use of deadly force only when the car is being used as a weapon, not “just on a hunch,” Alpert added.

The Texas Department of Public Safety did not immediately respond to an Associated Press request for the agency’s policy governing the use of deadly force.

Other law enforcement agencies that patrol the border say they have limits on the practice.

For instance, federal Customs and Borders Protection agents “are trained to use deadly force in circumstances that pose a threat to their lives, the lives of their fellow law enforcement partners and innocent third parties,” agency spokesman Doug Mosier said.

But a report presented Thursday to the United Nations by the American Civil Liberties Union said shootings and excessive force by Customs and Border Protection agents on the border have left at least 20 individuals dead or seriously hurt since January 2010.

Of those, eight cases involved agents responding to reports of people throwing rocks. Six involved people killed while standing on the Mexican side of the border.

In recent years, Texas state police have increased their presence in the border area, deploying more agents, more helicopters and more boats to patrol the Rio Grande.

Troopers are regularly involved in high-speed pursuits, often chasing drug smugglers into the river and back to Mexico.

Agency Director Stephen McCraw has said state police were pushed into that role because the federal government’s efforts to secure the border have been insufficient.

Diplomats quickly began their own investigation into the chase.

[pilot and apprentice]

Typical media BS.

They state the trooper was intending to disable the vehicle, which he did. His fire was not intended to be lethal, nor was it. It was highly accurate and effective. He prevented the criminals (if you run, you have commited a criminal act, regardless of why you were asked to stop) from endangering anyone else or escaping.

The lethal consequences are the responsibility of the driver: his decision to run and to exceed his own ability to drive.

...based on the last article posted.

[SASless]

This is an Idiot talking........

“In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn’t seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter,” said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if “you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants.”

[PANews]

Pilot and Apprentice

I note that your post was only put on Pprune after you took on a new identity.

Aside from this Texas case - which it is looking decidely like the agencies had no real choice in their actions - your statement that "if you run, you have commited a criminal act, regardless of why you were asked to stop" is coming from a real apprentice.

People run for all sorts of reasons - as in the very recent case of the blind man in the UK wielding a "Samurai sword."

Luckily he only got tazered. But he did drop his lethal white walking stick! :D

[HeliHenri]

It's very common (and very effective and safe) to fire on a véhicule from an helicopter in the Caribbean Sea to stop a supected drug speed boad.

If the crew (pilots and gunner) is well trained, it's quite easy to shoot to the two or three engines at the back even at full speed.

The gunner is always a marksman because it's a real job to shoot without collateral damage.

And by the way, nobody remembers the "BlackHawk down" film, how the good guys stopped the car of the very bad guy ?!! ;)
.

[topendtorque]

As Sasless says, plenty of idiots out there and who knows what was the case here.

One day when we were talking about teh cars aboriginals drive and how they never seem to stop because they drive them steady An ex copper mate of mine reckoned they stop real easy usually after only a couple of hundred yards with a heavy loaded point 45 fired from point blank into the engine block.

very easy to drop a few into teh engine bay from a helicopter, even from behind if they are trying to shoot back.

Then there is the other side, two cases here where some of our Southern police forces must forever be holding their heads in shame (dammit that word again).

First case was the poor slightly disturbed Frenchman armed with only a kitchen knife and standing right out in the open on Bondi Beach and two great muscle bound police uniformed buffoons could not even be smart enough to kick sand in his eyes but shot him dead.

Second case just the other day an otherwise great young Brazilian kid was tasered to death mostly after about half a platoon of muscle bound thugs, in police uniform again, ran him down and had him smothered on the ground. His only crime, got a bit hooched up, got on the fang and snitched a packet of biscuits from a local store.

Learning how to use weapons is one thing, learning restraint is quite another or even being smart with them.

[SASless]

TET.....in the case of the guy with a knife....the Police were very correct in using Deadly Force. Generally.....a guy with a knife can hurt you very badly if you let him get within 20 feet of you and you do not have a drawn weapon. To try to over power him and disarm him is patently stupid. A few reasons why this is so....this Cop went with Plan B....disarming the guy with the knife. Rest assured....this Cop will always without fail refer to Plan A in the future. Plan A is the Perp drops the knife or he gets shot.

Photo 1 (http://blogidaho.biz/knifewounds1.jpg)

Photo 2 (http://blogidaho.biz/knifewounds2.jpg)

Photo 3 (http://blogidaho.biz/knifewounds3.jpg)

[rick1128]

In this area, police officers have to assume anyone they stop is carrying drugs. Way too many officers have been shot and/or killed when stopping drug runners. At times it seems that the flags at law enforcement agencies are permanently set at half-staff.

The cartels use illegal aliens to run drugs across the border, so many times an illegal alien stop will produce drugs in distribution quantity. In this country fleeing from peace officers is a felony. For just being illegal aliens, there was no need to run. All immigration will do is hold them for a few days. Where they get 3 hots and a cot, in safe conditions. Then they are sent back south. From what I have been told, most illegal aliens will stop when challenged by officers. So these illegals running sent a different message to officers.

As for these officers,they were within agency policy. It appears they shot the engine. The dead died due to the crash. Since the driver decided to run, the deaths are legally his responsibility. They died directly due to his commission of a felony.

[homonculus]

Nice pictures SASless

Picture one does appear to be slashes by an untrained idiot, albeit that we rarely see such long wounds of constant and non lethal depth except in the case of torture and drug related

But the other two pictures show wounds most likely carried out by a skilled surgeon. Wish my trainees could do it that well!!!!!

Don't believe everything you see

[SASless]

Homo....you are full of crap Mate.....this came from official police channels the first time I saw it. It was in the form of a Training Circular.


I am afraid it is you that knows naught of this. So do move on will you.


Aucky....the ol' shoot'em in the hand....leg....arm....finger....only works in the movies. When you elect to use "Deadlly Force" you shoot at the biggest part with every hope of getting a good hit and put the guy down. Wounded or dead no matter....just incapacitate him as quickly as possible with the minimum risk to everyone else but the Perp.

[homonculus]

Ah I see SASless

Coming from an official police video means it must be true!

I was just having a light hearted banter and pointing out that one and possibly two of your pictures were of surgical incisions not knife attacks. You do seem a little sensitive.

Why it get back on the subject - the DPS face levels of violence rarely seen elsewhere in the western world. I suspect this particular action was not authorised - it certainly wasn't when I was there - but as most car chases involve armed occupants and frequently drugs the officer's response needs to be considered in the light of this

[GS Pilot]

Rick1128,
I appreciate your willingness to give the officers in this case the benefit of the doubt, too often it goes the other way, but in reference to a few of your statements:

Sometimes aliens and dope are moved together, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Aliens don't just give up when chased. They almost ALWAYS run. The idea that "if they evade, it must be drugs" is completely false.

The deaths were not caused by vehicle crash as you state. They were shot. If the officer was attempting to shoot tires/engine, he missed, and hit bodies.

It is my understanding that DPS Use of Force Policy allows airborne disabling fire to stop fleeing vehicles. What I'm uncertain of and I believe will be a major focus of the investigation in this case, is what ACTUAL THREAT did the vehicle in this case at that time, pose to the public or pursuing officers. I won't speculate on that, since I wasn't there.

Yes the Guatemalans in the back of that truck broke the law by illegally entering the US. But do we want America to be a place where if you jump across the fence or swim the river, you can be shot on sight?

I think at the very least DPS will be revising their Use of Force Policy in the near future.

[SASless]

Obama authorizes the dispatch of American Citizens by Drone Attacks in Yemen and other countries without any trial or due process.....so why not pop a few Illegals?

Once we god down the slope of condoning the killing of citizens by the Federal Government ala Waco and Ruby Ridge.....now the Drone Attacks....where do we draw the line?

[heli-cal]

DPS spokeswoman Katherine Cesinger confirmed a DPS officer opened fire during the pursuit north of La Joya, but had no information as to whether the officer shot anyone inside the evading vehicle.

“We do not want to speculate on any other issues at this time and have no further information,” Cesinger said in the email.

However, law enforcement sources said troopers found three people shot inside once the smuggler’s vehicle stopped along Farm-to-Market Road 2221 near Mile 7 Road. Two of the suspected illegal immigrants died from their injuries, they said.

“This is going to get big really, really fast,” a local law enforcement official said of the DPS incident. “You have a law enforcement official shooting at an unarmed alien. This is not an excuse for deadly force.”

Cesinger confirmed two people were dead. She said a third person was sent to an area hospital for treatment, while six others were arrested.

The people whom were shot to death were killed inside the vehicle!

I look forward to seeing the killer convicted and jailed.

[Ian Corrigible]

SAS,

The use of drone strikes to kill U.S. citizens on the basis of terrorist affiliations pre-dates Obama, going back to at least 2002.

I/C

[topendtorque]

No worries Sas,

I've been busy elsewhere but have no truk with criticizing the boys in blue per-SE, however there are horses for courses and unfortunately for those at Bondi with the French man, the whole situation was portrayed in widely published cell phone images. One could clearly see the vacant beach, a lonely, troubled, solitary soul whose limited physical dexterity was there for all to see and something a lot less than an experienced knife-hand being confronted in a tight space. In that circumstance then quite obviously a serious peace maker may be called for, but not the french article.

When I was at AirLog at Long Beach in about 1980, we had interesting talks with some of the police helicopter pilots and troopers who used to be based next door.

Some of these dudes had just done an "Angel Dust" course (which as a socially used drug was only quite new) and had some frightening stories about the drug. One tale related how an officer by himself had approached a suspect before anything was known about procedures to do so and apart from being thrown about twenty meters thru a plate glass shop front window was seriously 'going down' before he resorted to the sidearm, which took seven slugs and only the final loss ol blood to slow his assailant down. A remarkable story in itself but the sick twist was the fact that the assailant's aggrieved mother was pursuing the officer with a writ for one million bucks for, "Dereliction of Duty". I never heard the result.

But more particularly if I may impose upon the indulgence of the mods for just a little more I would like to post links to a couple of stories that are being circulated on only social media both here and America as we believe. Firstly there is a sickening article about the Benghazi "affair" (http://www.rightsidenews.com/0000000000000/editorial/rsn-pick-of-the-day/the-issue-of-presidential-veracity.html). A case for impeachment if ever there was is the opinion in this house.

Secondly, I also wish to convey my humble respect for those on duty during your recent little 'light breeze and light rain', at the tomb of the unknown soldier where the adage might be coined that once in uniform as either a GI or the C in C it's supposed to be on your toes at all times (http://catallaxyfiles.com/2012/10/30/in-with-the-old-and-out-with-the-new/). Note the quips in the comments about the bayonets, relating to an Obama gaff, oh and the one about the boats, jeeeesus.There are other links in the story re Benghazi.

Other links to the Benghazi story can be found on PJ Media (http://pjmedia.com/blog/questions-for-white-house-over-benghazi-just-beginning/?singlepage=true). and the Gateway pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/10/father-of-slain-benghazi-seal-the-white-house-order-was-dont-help-them-let-them-die-video/) esp. comments 22 & 24.

All the best for your upcoming elections, we're rooting for the double R connection, most impressed with Ryan's economic management skills.Be interested to hear accountant Whirl's comments on that.

Regards tet

[Ascend Charlie]

So what do these huggy-fluffies say when the cops use the Stinger strips to destroy the tires, and the truck crashes like this one did?:sad:

[Ian Corrigible]

Texas trooper won't be indicted in border helicopter shooting deaths (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-0912-texas-helicopter-shooting-20130912,0,2483535.story)

I/C

[Lonewolf_50]

I note that rick was right, most of you foreigners were wrong.
I am not surprised at how the ignorant spoke out regarding something they know little to nothing about. We stopped going to the border region, my family and I, about five years ago. That part of Texas has simply become too dangerous, in no small part due to the illegal immigrants, many of whom are desperate people, the back and forth movements of drug runners and "kidnap for pay" bandits, and various combinations of the above. Back when I was in my 20's, a road trip to Laredo was a fun weekend. Not anymore.

Caveat and accomodation: most of us, me included, can only know part of the story since all we have available is the thin pizza pie slice of a news report, or a series of them. The few people who actually work in that environment tend to have a deeper understanding of what's behind a given event.

FWIW

[Thomas coupling]

Walk in the park compared to this:

Brazilian police helicopter shoots at car during chase - video | World news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/may/07/brazil-police-helicopter-chase-video)

The further south you go - the greater the risk of being shot up...it seems :}