Expired ATPL , is there any hope?

[Wildbluewander]

I have decided to look again into a flying career following a break from flying of just over 6 years.

The trouble is i did my ATPL back in 2000 and my associated civvy IR (done on a Herc) ran out then, although i did keep current on my aircraft type with a valid RAF IRT until Aug 2006.

I have spoken to the CAA and been through the CAP and to my horror it looks like i have to do all my theory exams again, which is not a great option. So here are some questions:

1. Can i use my last IRT on the Herc (exp Apr 07) to count towards keeping my ATPL current? This would get me under the 7 year rule and be a good thing.
2. I had an IRT done by somone i believe was a civvy rated IRE and that would have an expiry date of 4 Nov 05, bit close but still sub 7 years, however, no CAA paperwork was filed for the test.
3. Would it be easier to start again under the Military exemption scheme and apply for a new license based on my most recent flying up until 2006.
4. Do you know anyone who has fallen foul of this 7 year rule who got it sorted without resorting to great expense and time wasting?
5. Do you have any spare tissues.

All suggestions greatly appreciated and though it doesn't show in my typing my face reflects a reasonable degree of stress.

[paco]

There's a document out for the military and it looks as if you ever held a Green Procedural even 30 years ago (hope for me yet then :)), there are some exemptions you can claim.

However it is chewy reading.....

I think the previous exams have been taken too long ago to be exempt any of them. But if you can get under the 7 year rule you will be exempt HPL, Instruments and Met. That's if they haven't changed 804 in the last twenty minutes.....

Tissues is extra!

[Wildbluewander]

Thanks very much, what is the document, is it part of the 804? Got the Proc Grn many times and any exemption is better than none!:{

[RVR800]

>Can i use my last IRT on the Herc (exp Apr 07) to count towards keeping >my ATPL current? This would get me under the 7 year rule and be a good >thing.


I can't see why not ; run it past the CAA; give them a call

[Wildbluewander]

I am just doing an email to them now. Trouble is, what may seem like a pragmatic solution from our side of the counter doesn't always compute on the other but it's well worth a try! Will keep you posted but i've been told not to expect a quick response from them!!

[Wildbluewander]

Thanks CF, it is as Paco says "chewy reading" but i think i've got the idea.

The consensus of opinion (many thanks one and all), including Bristol GS and Bornemouth GS, is to contact the CAA with all the facts and let them decide what i need to do. Here goes..............:uhoh:

[Alex Whittingham]

It might not be good news, check this thread (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/467898-has-your-uk-caa-i-r-lapsed-more-than-7-6-3-years.html) first, and this one. (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/487882-uk-caa-ir-fiasco.html)

[Wildbluewander]

Well i was wrong about the CAA, they sent a response within 24 hours and it is pretty thorough...........

From the CAA:

In reference to your email regarding the renewal of your UK ATPL(A), I have set out the responses to your specific points below;

I have recently decided to return to aviation and was looking to renew my ATPL when questions were raised by the expiry date of my initial IR being beyond the 7 year period. I was under the impression that my license was being kept active by my full green rating which i completed each year and so it came as a shock today to hear i may be required to redo some of the theory exams i have already done.

The requirements for the maintenance of an IR are set out in Part-FCL FCL.625, this is unchanged to the requirements set out in JAR-FCL 1 and the ANO which was clarified in LASORS 2010. I have copied the relevant text below for your review;

FCL.625 IR(A) – Validity, revalidation and renewal

(c) Renewal. If an IR(A) has expired, in order to renew their privileges applicants shall:

(1) go through refresher training at an ATO to reach the level of proficiency needed to pass the instrument element of the skill test in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL; and
(2) complete a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL, in an aeroplane.

(d) If the IR(A) has not been revalidated or renewed within the preceding 7 years, the holder will be required to pass again the IR theoretical knowledge examination and skill test.

Therefore, should you seek to renew your IR you are required to retake the IR exams, complete refresher training at an ATO and pass a proficiency check on an aircraft Class/Type for which you are qualified.

Please could you tell me what i must do in order to renew my license to a full ATPL or equivalent.

To renew your UK ATPL is an administrative process that requires you to apply and pay the associated fees, you must also hold a valid Part-MED Class 1 medical certificate on the day you apply. However, as above, you would not hold any IR privileges on this UK ATPL(A) and only valid Classes or types on the day of application will be endorsed on the licence. this may not be converted to a Part-FCL ATPL(A) unless you meet the IR renewal and type rating requirements applicable for conversion. You would also be subject to any Medical Operational Limitation codes which may be specified on your Medical certificate (if any).

Additionally, should you seek to convert your UK ATPL(A) to a Part-FCL ATPL(A), you must satisfy the conversion requirements of Annex II to the EASA Aircrew Regulation in a multi pilot Aeroplane type on which you qualify. The full requirements are set out in CAP 804, Section4 ,Part P which may be viewed or downloaded from the CAA website.
Could be worse........

[Wildbluewander]

Thanks Alex, an interesting read and i have sent a PM to get an update if poss.

I assume the CAA response to me today is much the same as everyone else?

I can see the value in doing the theory training once, as i did with you guys back in '99 (although some of the nav was a bit random) but what do they gain, apart from dosh, by making us do them again......ahhhhhh!

Anyone got that number for truck school?

[slowbusdriver]

Hi Wildblue,

Here we are 3 years later and I find myself in a similar situation to you.

May I ask how your attempts at gaining the licence went?

I also did all the ATPL exams in 1999, then went to HK to fly. Have been flying since on widebodies on a HK ATPL.

My UK ATPL expired in 2009. I have now been waiting 2 months for replies to e-mails from CAA at Gatwick so trying other avenues for info.

I am aware that there is dispensation for IR for people in my situation, but I have found no information regarding dispensations for renewing the licence itself. The thought of doing 18 exams again fills me with equal amounts of horror and contempt. It seems as you say to be a money making excercise.

Would love to get an update on how it went for you.

[BillieBob]

There has never been a requirement to re-take theoretical knowledge examinations to maintain a licence, only the IR. As in the CAA response earlier in the thread: To renew your UK ATPL is an administrative process that requires you to apply and pay the associated fees...
In short:

To renew your ATPL, you need to hold a valid Class 1 medical and a valid (EASA) type rating on a multi-pilot aeroplane. The type rating on your HK ATPL will not count directly, although it can be transferred.

To renew your IR, assuming that your HK IR is valid, you need a course completion certificate from an ATO and a pass in the IR proficiency check. Note that the requirement for a course completion certificate does not necessarily imply that you will need any refresher training - that is at the discretion of the Head of Training.

[BJTW]

I was always under impression, (please anyone! feel free to correct me) that once you have passed the horrendous 14 exams, you had 5 years in which to do your GFT (skills test) in order to secure your licence or if you do the GFT (skills test) first then you had only 6 months to secure the actual licence. The licence then being valid a life time, unless it is revoked for some reason or another. With regards to the class 1 medical, that has to be passed in order to exercise the privileges of the licence and if for example you fail the med. because your say overweight you have a temporary suspension until you lose weight.

If you don't remain current, I again was under the impression that you just had to go to an ATO to get back your proficiency whereby you would then carry out a mini GFT to regain currency (which I myself have done in the passed) at that ATO.

As the IR is only a rating as apposed license, I can understand and may expect that the CAA would have you do the theory and oral exams pertaining to that rating and maybe a skills test, but I really can't see how that would affect you actual ATPL Licence and apart from a "MONEY EXERCISE" why you would have to do those expensive, awful, irritating 14 theory exams again unless you didn't secure your licence with the corresponding GFT (skills test) which no one in their right mind would ever want to repeat.

I myself would be very interested to know for sure as I may be finding myself in a similar predicament which would be :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[max alt]

I just don't understand the logic of re sitting the theory exams if you have not validated your IR within 7 years.You don't have to re sit your O levels every seven years to keep them.
Has this ever been challenged by any colleagues.
Rgds,
M

[Unusual Attitude]

I just don't understand the logic of re sitting the theory exams if you have not validated your IR within 7 years.You don't have to re sit your O levels every seven years to keep them.

The mistake your making there is using Logic!

Likewise I have a CPL but no IR and my theory credits expired years ago so if I wanted to gain a FzATPL I have to redo ALL the exams again (except VFR Comms). Basically as far as theoretical exams go its as if my CPL never happened.....

Regards

UA

[RichardH]

Remember CAA stands for Cash Again & Again!

[Unusual Attitude]

Well you know what, having just read the Air Asia accident report which is almost another AF447 I'm rather inclined to think that future pilots would be better served spending less times with their faces in books and more time actually hand flying aircraft... ideally some basic aerobatics and not just the run of the mill and predictable unusual attitude recovery..

But hey, that's just crazy talk....