Missing Lad from HMS Westminster - Wife kicked out of MQs

[SRENNAPS]

I apologise for posting this and I appreciate that it is nothing to do with Military Aviation. However I am so angry, I just feel that this deserves attention if it is true.

As many of you will recall a married man serving on HMS Westminster disappeared after a night out in Dubai in May of this year. The ship returned to the UK, without the lad in August:

BBC News - Timmy MacColl: HMS Westminster returns to Portsmouth (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-19233034)

I have just been told, by a friend who serves on Westminster, that his wife and three kids have been kicked out of married quarters.

If this is true it is horrific and despicable action by the Mod/Navy and I cannot believe that the press have not picked up on it.

It has not even been 6 months since he disappeared and only several weeks since the ship returned.

Sorry, but I am fuming if it is true and I felt that it should be mentioned here, especially as there is a number of Navy personnel who post here.

[Genstabler]

This is, and always has been, normal procedure. The licence to occupy service accommodation lapses if the military husband dies and the family have to make alternative civilian arrangements after a period of grace. Sad but necessary to free up limited service accommodation at a station for those fully entitled.
Of course a storm can easily be whipped up among the impressionable by using emotive language like "kicked out", which is, of course, SOP for journos.
Sad and a fact of service life, but in no way horrific or despicable.

[Moi/]

Wife kicked out of MQ's, or Wife no longer entitled to MQ's.?

[SRENNAPS]

Well I am sorry but I disagree. As far as I am concerned it is a despicable act. It is not known if he is dead (although, sadly I would agree he probably is).

6 months is no time at all and if it is happening to the wives/partners of those killed in Afgan (or previously in Iraq) then it is wrong.

After 30 years in the RAF, I knew quite a few people over the years that were killed because of one reason or another and I did not know of any wife that was even asked to vacate their MQ. They left when they were ready and received all the support they needed.

I also knew many individuals who left the RAF, became unemployed, but managed to keep their MQs because they had nowhere to go! Not sure I agreed with that one!!!

By the way “kicked out” was the term used by the lad of HMS Westminster and the whole crew are absolutely sick with the decision.

To be quite frank the two comments above are heartless and so typical. The wife and three kids are in pieces and there should be plenty of support for them, not a bloody rule book.:ugh::ugh:

[Bob Viking]

I thought there was a two year period of grace to reintegrate into civilian life?
I may well be wrong.
BV

[Genstabler]

Well after 34 years in the Army I have known a great many that were killed and to whose families this ruling was applied. Also within the RAF to personnel on my son's unit. You must have led a very sheltered service life.
My comment was not heartless and I'm not sure what you consider it typical of. The rule book is practical, necessary and realistic. The families are not thrown out onto the streets. There is a comprehensive care and support structure which kicks in. It is sad, but necessary.
Get your facts correct and save your righteous indignation for a target that merits it.

[LeggyMountbatten]

I've dim memories from Scribbly school and the office simulator phase that go something like this....

Whilst units can be very understanding in situations of almost unbelievable distress, they have to serve a Notice to Vacate after a standard period (looks about right here).

However, the spouse/widow becomes an "irregular occupant" and moves to a rent closer to social housing costs. Thereafter, it was determined by the situation, passage of time, waiting list situation and payment record how it proceeds

Any ex-Scribblies with a better memory?

If SSAFA is involved then I'm sure the family is being supported...

[Genstabler]

Sounds about right.

[Tiger_mate]

A notice of eviction is the usual entry criteria for a Council House. Unsavoury but normal protocol that is easily hyped up the wrong way if the cap fits.

[OmegaV6]

"Notice to Vacate" - is a legal necessity that actually HELPS the families get council supported accommodation.

It is a legal notice that eviction will follow - and so the family WILL become homeless, this forces the council to take action. Without it the council simply say "they have a home, not interested"

So... far from being "kicked out".. an effort to ensure long term housing is available is taking place.

Unfortunately the truth does not make such clever headlines ... all aboard the outrage bus ... lets sell some newspapers regardless of the truth ... :(

[SRENNAPS]

Genstabler and all

I really do not want to get into an argument over something as tragic as this story.

But, I was just trying to highlight something that I feel is wrong, very wrong.

As I said earlier the man has not been confirmed as dead and it was only a few weeks ago that his Captain said "Our thoughts and prayers remain with his family."

As for:

There is a comprehensive care and support structure which kicks in.

Following a recent suicide of a member of the Armed Forces here in South Wales and an investigation into the support given to seriously injured servicemen and families of servicemen killed there is still along way to go to provide the support they need.

If you wish to slate me off for showing support for the family of a serviceman who I feel has been treated wrongly, then that is your right. And yes there is a degree of emotion; I know the lad that told me very well indeed and he and the crew of HMS Westminster feel sick and helpless over what has happened. He is a serving member and I used to be. I feel his pain….is that wrong?

But as you all say "The rules are the rules"
Just a shame that other incidents of far less hurt and pain, but normally of a politically correct nature, make the headlines and action happens. :ugh::ugh:


PS, I can assure you my career was not sheltered ;)

[baffman]

This is, and always has been, normal procedure. The licence to occupy service accommodation lapses if the military husband dies and the family have to make alternative civilian arrangements after a period of grace. Sad but necessary to free up limited service accommodation at a station for those fully entitled.
Of course a storm can easily be whipped up among the impressionable by using emotive language like "kicked out", which is, of course, SOP for journos.
Sad and a fact of service life, but in no way horrific or despicable.

So has the Licence to Occupy changed? The copy I am looking at has a rather convoluted clause about death in service but the FIRST review of the bereaved spouse's longer term housing requirements takes place 6 months after the death, and then the earliest date for ending the Licence requires another 93 days' notice.

Even the 6 months has not elapsed, and it would be wrong to issue a notice ending the Licence before the review can have taken place.

Your assumption that the sailor has been declared dead appears to be wrong. Without knowing anything about the case other than what has appeared in the media, I wonder if in fact he has been formally declared AWOL.

[baffman]

PS Bob Viking mentioned a two year period of grace. I agree, up to two years.

The version of the Licence I am looking at provides for a minimum of six months until the first review, with further reviews at 3 monthly intervals thereafter up to a total period of 2 years, with 93 days notice to follow a decision to terminate as a result of any of the 3 monthly reviews.

[lj101]

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3C09CB15-E95C-41CF-8A06-13027254A03B/0/jsp464part1.pdf#page1

REVISED POLICY FOR THE OCCUPATION OF SFA BY BEREAVED SPOUSE/CIVIL PARTNERS FOLLOWING THE DEATH IN SERVICE OF THE SERVICE LICENSEE
PURPOSE
1. The purpose of this policy statement is to lay down guidelines for the occupation of SFA by bereaved spouse/civil partners and their families following the death in Service of the Service Licensee. The policy seeks to recognise that bereaved spouse/civil partners should have continued entitlement to SFA for a reasonable period to assist them in coming to terms with their bereavement but, ultimately, that the policy should assist bereaved spouse/civil partners in transitioning out of SFA and integrating back into the civilian community. In view of the sensitivity of the issue, this policy has been endorsed at Ministerial level.12
UK
2. Following a death in service of the Service Licensee, the bereaved spouse/civil partner should be offered an entitlement to stay in their SFA/SSFA for a 2 year period to enable them to determine their longer term housing requirements. Retention of SFA may be extended beyond the 2 year period at the discretion of the Local Service Commander in consultation with the respective welfare, medical and educational authorities and DE Ops Housing. The bereaved spouse/civil partner will pay entitled SFA charges for the Type and Grade of SFA occupied (which may be liable to change as a result of a 4 Tier Grading Board and/or the annual AFPRB round). CILOCT charges may be abated by 25% for single occupancy. The bill for SFA charges for the first 3 months should be passed to the bereaved spouse via the Visiting Officer.
3. If during the period of entitlement DE Ops Housing requires the SFA occupied by the bereaved spouse/civil partner for upgrade or disposal purposes, or the lease is terminated on SSFA, it would be appropriate for the bereaved spouse/civil partner to be provided with alternative SFA/SSFA of a similar type at the same location. In these circumstances the bereaved spouse/civil partner would be entitled to relocation at public expense, consisting of furniture removal expenses and the appropriate rate of Disturbance Allowance.
4. If during the period of entitlement the bereaved spouse/civil partner indicates that they wish to move closer to the home of an immediate member of their family or their child’s school, the bereaved spouse/civil partner is entitled to one relocation at public expense within 12 months of the date of bereavement, consisting of furniture removal expenses and the appropriate rate of Disturbance Allowance. The 12 month period may be extended at the discretion of the Local Service Commander in consultation with the respective welfare, medical and educational authorities and DE Ops Housing. DE Ops Housing is to provide the bereaved spouse/civil partner with SFA/SSFA within a radius of up to 50 miles of their family member or their child’s school and continued occupation of that SFA at entitled rates. DE Ops Housing is to deal with each application on case by case basis and subject to the availability of housing always attempt to provide SFA/SSFA as close as possible to the preferred location.

Etc etc

[SRENNAPS]

This is, and always has been, normal procedure

Ehmm, looking above maybe it was not normal procedure. After 34 years service I would have thought you knew this.

I certainly had real and practical experience of it during my 30 (sheltered) years. :(:(

[baffman]

Yup.

I believe that the "death in service" theme is a probable red herring, NOT introduced by yourself, SRENNAPS.

Worth watching IMHO to see what facts emerge.

[D-IFF_ident]

Is he missing or dead? If there's no death certificate then surely the spouse should not be asked to vacate?

[Genstabler]

This is, and always has been, normal procedure.
The period of grace has been extended. It used to be 6 months. The JSP revision dated 2010 seems generously to have extended this considerably.
The "notice of eviction" is an emotive term for an essential instrument to justify immediate entitlement to civilian social housing and benefits in the location chosen by the bereaved family. They can now stay in MQs for two years or more if that is their choice, but when they wish to move they require the eviction notice. This can be, and frequently is, misinterpreted and misrepresented by those who do not understand the system and by those wishing to trash it and generate outrage. Bereaved families are not kicked out.

[baffman]

The JSP revision dated 2010 seems generously to have extended this considerably.

Yes, and too generously, according to your earlier post.

[baffman]

Just to add, have just confirmed that the so-called "Revised Policy" also appears in a previous edition of JSP 464: Change 4, 5 Jun 06.

[SRENNAPS]

Bereaved families are not kicked out.


Well according to the friend who serves on HMS Westminster this family has been “kicked out”. Whether that is true or not, I really don’t know. He tells me that he and the whole Ships’ company are absolutely gutted over the incident. The lad I know has now served in the Navy for over 15 years; he loves it and I cannot question his loyalty or desire to stay in and serve his country. He is not the kind of man that makes up negative stories.

There may well be more to this story than we know. I have always found it strange that the story has made very little press, especially as the incident occurred in the Middle East.

But what I do think is that his family should be totally and utterly supported in every way and if it means bending the rule book and ignoring heartless to$$ers in their ivory towers, then so be it.

The Armed Forces and their families of this country need and deserve all the support they can get from the people of the country. If they don’t get it from within or from ex serving members, then what hope is there?


Thanks baffman:D:D:D:D

[Genstabler]

"Yes, and too generously, according to your earlier posts".
How on earth do you derive that interpretation from my previous posts? Wierd!

[500N]

Someone mentioned death certificate.

So the wife is still legally married ?

What would be the situation if the person was MIA for 6 months ?
Would the same rules apply ?

[lj101]

Srennaps

The MacColl family have this web site with up to date news on it.

Bring Timmy Home | Missing - Royal Navy Leading Seaman Timmy MacColl (http://www.bringtimmyhome.co.uk/)

No mention of this MQ situation anywhere.

[Navaleye]

From what I have heard from folks on the spot, the MoD has done the square root of zilch to support this family because of his rank. If he was a Sqn Leader, Commander etc then the whole support structure would be different. It stinks. Has this guy been officially declared dead? Is she still married? Yes of course.

[baffman]

"Yes, and too generously, according to your earlier posts".
How on earth do you derive that interpretation from my previous posts? Wierd!

Apologies, your PPRuNe account must have been hijacked. Glad that the real Genstabler generously accepts the 2 year policy.

[Biggus]

I thought that, if there was no body, it took up to 7 years before someone could be legally declared dead.

If I'm right, and it might be a big "if", surely all he could be considered at the moment is MIA or AWOL. On this basis he is still a member of the RN, and the entitlement to a quarter still exists.

As a thought, could the crew of HMS Westminster not set up a fund for the family in question. Say £10 a month from each of a 250 odd size crew would provide very well for the family in the short term.

[SRENNAPS]

lj101

I would suggest that the kind of woman she is, she would not mention the MQ side. I think she only wants her hubbie back. I think there are people out there in the country that want the right thing to happen and they haven’t all got “compensation” in the back of their minds.

The saddest thing about that link is this:

“The media response this has created out in Dubai has been phenomenal, and even though the response in the UK has not been massive it has achieved all our aims”.

I do find that pretty disturbing considering he is a member of the armed forces. However, very sadly (thoughts that had already gone through my mind) and still so common in this modern age, I have a tendency to agree with Navaleye’s comment. We all like to think it does not happen any more, but sadly (and backed up by certain comments here) it does.

[big v]

Are we suprised?

The story of this guy is sad and his family are stuck in an awful situation.

The armed forces breaks many people for any number of reasons. I believe it to be true that the biggest single group that make up the homeless population are ex armed forces.

When the individual's value is gone, so is the support. Harsh but true.

Glad I left? Too right.

Toodlepip

[alfred_the_great]

You are all talking bollocks.

[Navaleye]

Please explain your comment?

[SRENNAPS]

All,

I realise that this thread is very controversial and is causing disagreement among us. I have even received a private email giving me a bit of a slating. If you wish me to delete the thread as “it is not in the spirit of military aviation” then I will. Mods if you wish to delete the thread then I will accept that decision.

I just felt this situation needed to be highlighted if it is true but I cannot confirm that. Far lesser things have been presented here on PPRuNe in the past.

Regards to all.

[Blacksheep]

When I was demobbed I received 60 days notice to leave our MQ. When a friend was divorced his family also received 60 days notice. At the end of the 60 days an eviction notice is served. This is then enables, indeed requires, the local authority, to provide emergency assistance. Administrative procedures, bureaucracy and all that, but it is simply part of a process. If you become homeless "voluntarily" they cannot act.

[baffman]

SRENNAPS, in fairness to you the "death in service" theme was not started by you, but having been raised in post #2 was worth discussing, if in so doing we have improved awareness of the actual rules.

And treatment of service families in SFA is a tri-service issue.

As to your initial post, I don't doubt that this rumour is on the go, but I have heard nothing elsewhere as yet to confirm.

It's obviously not up to me but I suggest leave it there (i.e. speculation concerning this particular family). If there really is a problem I suspect that more info will find its way here soon enough.

[parabellum]

the MoD has done the square root of zilch to support this family because of
his rank. If he was a Sqn Leader, Commander etc then the whole support structure
would be different.


There have been a couple of posts on this thread that have been a bit misleading but, for the all out and indisputable leader in 'total bollocks' the above, in 'bold', must take the biscuit.

If all that has been said about the absolute need for an eviction notice is true and it seems undeniably so, then the media would be leaving it alone as they will be well aware of the procedures that are in place and their implications.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Has this guy been officially declared dead? Is she still married? Yes of course."

Is he currently a serving member of HM Armed forces? - apparently not

You have to draw the line somewhere I guess

[Divergent Phugoid!]

I have the ear of one of the leading reporters on the Savill case...

Does anyone think that it might be worth a punt mentioning the story to him, with a view to a full, open, investigation?





Oh and he's from the morse code mail! :ok:

[Genstabler]

Non story, at the moment at least. Leave alone.

[Whenurhappy]

The armed forces breaks many people for any number of reasons. I believe it to be true that the biggest single group that make up the homeless population are ex armed forces.

This is a bit of an urban myth. I was talking to the new CE SSAFA quite recently and he was quick to put down this rumour - there are ex-Sp on the streets, but no where near the percentage (typically 25%) that is quoted; same for prison populations. Moreover, of those ex-Sp on the streets, some where TA (but can claim to be ex SP), others left the Services because of discipline and suitability issues (VW from training or kicked out) and surveys that are done do not investigate whether the interviewee is, indeed, genuine. Very few (though, I agree, still too many) had 'normal' careers in the Services and are homeless not due to Service reasons but due to relationship breakups, health and addiction problems, although I accept that these could be related to thier Service.


With respect to the OP, I think that there are a few unknowns in this story; there is nothing corroborating that the MOD is trying to kick the family out of housing within current guidelines; from previous experience (at Lyneham) DHE (as was) was very understanding and accommodating for the widow one SP who had died.

[Shack37]

Originally posted by Genstabler
Non story, at the moment at least. Leave alone.


Interesting post, comment, suggestion or order?
Something to hide?

[glad rag]

From what I have heard from folks on the spot, the MoD has done the square root of zilch to support this family because of his rank. If he was a Sqn Leader, Commander etc then the whole support structure would be different. It stinks. Has this guy been officially declared dead? Is she still married? Yes of course.


For what it's worth buddy, I wasn't really expecting that from you...:D:D:D

[glojo]

To all those that have described this sailor as being deceased, then can they PLEASE show me where they have found this information.

If someone is hospitalised for six months, are they served a notice of eviction?

If it was known that this sailor deserted then I might understand why the MoD has behaved in this manner but is there is anything to suggest this? (I think not)

[lj101]

SRENNAPS

An update for you, any more facts on the MQ situation?

The wife of a Royal Navy sailor who went missing five months ago in the United Arab Emirates expressed frustration today at a breakdown in communication with the Dubai police who are in charge of the ongoing hunt for her husband.
Fighting back the tears, Rachael MacColl, 25, issued a new appeal for information on his whereabouts as she spoke movingly about the pain of seeing their two children and newborn baby, who has never seen her father, growing up without Leading Seaman Timothy MacColl.
“My husband is not just a sailor, he’s an adoring father, son and uncle,” she said, speaking at a press conference at the Royal Navy headquarters on Whale Island, Portsmouth.
“He is my soulmate, my first love and best friend. We have been together since we were teenagers, we have grown together, got married and started a family.”
Mrs MacColl, who was 20 weeks pregnant when her husband, a crewman on HMS Westminster, disappeared after a drunken night out in Dubai in May, described how excited he had been at the prospect of becoming a father for a third time.
“The one thing that pains me the most is that he’s not here for them,” she said.
“Growing up without a father meant Timmy put everything into being a great daddy and he would be heartbroken that he hasn’t been with them the last few months.”
The Dubai police took charge of the investigation after Leading Seaman MacColl, 28, was reported missing on May 27 but Mrs MacColl said there had been a lack of co-operation.
“There’s been a lot of communication breakdown, it has affected the whole of this investigation,” she said
“We invited the Dubai police to attend this press conference today and they are not here.
“As a family we find it very hard. I call Dubai police on a regular basis, three or four times a week. I’ve run up a phone bill for three or four hundred pounds, it’s not as if we haven’t tried.”
Despite offers by the Navy for two witnesses from HMS Westminster to give witness statements, they had not been requested by the Dubai police, according to Lieutenant Commander Tony Day, who is leading the Royal Navy Police inquiry into the incident.
“Primacy is with the Dubai police and the offer for the witnesses to be interviewed by video-link remains open,” he added.
British and Dubai officials have conducted a number of searches in the port in Dubai and underwater but so far have been unable to find any clues to the mystery disappearance.

[glojo]

Nice to read that she was allowed to give that conference in a Royal Navy Establishment and surely it is far better to keep the Navy onside and perhaps thank them for their continued support (even if it might not be enough)

I feel the Navy, the ship, the sailor's messmates and maybe procedures need to be looked at regarding this very sad issue.

Prior to going ashore would certain safeguards\rules be put into place especially when ashore. To put one person into a taxi who might be ill, or maybe even under the influence of alcohol in that area in the present political climate must surely have been a really BIG no, no and those that did this were not doing their shipmate any favours plus it must surely have been contrary to some sort of Standing Order? (RoE does not sound right)

Hopefully this family will be getting the long term support that they MUST surely be entitled to and until there is an outcome I just feel it only right and proper to leave this family in a house surrounded by neighbours she knows and hopefully gets support from??

Once her husband comes home or he is located\identified then we should accept the family might not be entitled to remain in their married quarter. My gut feeling is that this issue will be taken care of and her best interests will be respected.

[alfred_the_great]

Glojo - I'm amazed. Send such thoughts to NCHQ forthwith, they'll be grateful for them. We could perhaps call such an investigation a 'Service Investigation' and allow it to provide such recommendations it feels necessary....

And you will have some fairly hefty '****-off' pills if you start dictating to people how their legal behaviour should be confined simply because one bloke got so ****-faced he wasn't able to stay awake to get home. Was it good drills by his oppos to put him in the taxi by himself - absolutely not; was LS MacColl at fault for drinking far in excess of what is sensible and placing himself and his oppos in a difficult position - absolutely.

However, I sense that much like the RAN the RN will be banned from drinking within the KIPION AOR - a mass over-reaction, but there we go.

[glojo]

Hi Alfred,
Thank you for the compliment and what I have said was standard procedure when visiting ports where there was a security risk. Putting an incapacitated person into a vehicle being driven by a total stranger at night was wrong.

Best wishes
John

Here is the latest news (http://www.7daysindubai.com/Dubai-Police-invited-quiz-sailors-Royal-Navy/story-17202045-detail/story.html) regarding that issue

[SRENNAPS]

lj101 and glojo,

Many thanks for the updates.

Sadly, I myself, have no further information. But I will let you know if I do.