FLIGHT ENGINEER – The mystery man exposed

[onehunglong]

Generally, for the majority of those in aviation, the role of the FE was fuzzy.

2 books separately trace the FE's history.

The Purple Stripe - A history of Flight Engineers in Australia by Brian Hill
900 pages.
Not available from bookstores, the book can be purchased from
Southern Cross Publications, PO Box 420 Bulleen, Victoria 3105,
or contact Brian Hill at

[email protected]



http://i65.tinypic.com/2a8qniv.png


The Purple Stripe not only provides a comprehensive account of Flight Engineers in civil aviation in Australia, through the archives of the Australian Airline Flight Engineers Association, but this book also provides interesting details of the aircraft they operated and the companies in which they were employed. Many of these details have never before been presented to the general public.
Beginning at the early days of aviation during the First World War, engineers were an early important part of the crewing of many of the balloons that were used for spotting and observation. During the latter part of that conflict, aircraft grew enormously with multiple engines which necessitated that a specialist engineer oversee their operation and thus allow the pilot to concentrate on flying.
Following that terrible conflict, the huge civil aircraft that quickly came on the scene also needed a specialist engineer to oversee the increasingly complicated engines and systems that were being incorporated into these large aircraft. The big flying boats that came into operation to span the globe became the first aircraft to regularly carry a Flight Engineer and it was in these that Australia first used dedicated Flight Engineers in both civil and military aircraft just prior to the Second World War.
During this war aircraft developed enormously, with most of the larger aircraft utilising the services of Flight Engineers. After the war the large airliners developed from wartime experience continued to use Flight Engineer Officers, as they became known, as part of the crew. In Australia, the purchase by Qantas of the US Lockheed Constellation in 1947 saw the Department of Civil Aviation issue licences for Flight Engineers for the first time. Other operators to use FEOs in the early days were ANA in DC-4s on overseas flights and the DC-6s as well as British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines in its DC-4s and DC-6s.
Soon after this time, engineers who began operating as FEOs began to form an industrial organisation known as the Australian Airline Flight Engineers Association, and after incorporation of the domestic FEOs, became a registered union body in 1961. By this time Qantas were operating Super Constellations, Boeing 707s and Lockheed Electras, while Ansett and TAA were operating DC-6Bs and Lockheed Electras. For the next four decades the AAFEA would have to fight continuously to keep the FEO as part of the crew of new types as pilots wanted an all-pilot crew.
The author of The Purple Stripe, Brian L. Hill, takes the reader meticulously through the many battles that the AAFEA fought - some successfully - many not so successful. Part of the appeal of this book will be the frankness that comes through as a 'warts and all' presentation of what really went on in Australian civil aviation during the second half of the 20th Century. Aviation buffs will be fascinated as to why the airlines chose the aircraft they did and how the manufacturers developed these aircraft. Brief technical details are provided on all of the major types that carried Flight Engineers.
Episodes like the Abeles Agreement with the Ansett FEOs and the split in the union over the Qantas B767 as well as the long TAA fight that followed, are explained in the context of the day. The long drawn out battle to have an FEO on the Airbus A320 is detailed with many of the twist and turns that have never been explained to the general public before. Similarly, the 1989 Pilots Dispute is laid out from the Flight Engineers point of view along with their efforts to mediate on this tricky conflict


Finished with Engines - The story of Qantas longhaul flight engineers by Colin Lock

[email protected]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2a0jnkj.jpg

Basically in two parts, the first details the development of the FE position within Qantas through to its redundancy in 2009. It consists of 345 pages covering aircraft types flight engineers flew on, incidents and accidents, crewing issues as well as the general Qantas operation from a flight engineers' perspective. There is however a great deal of general Qantas operational history to interest a wider readership. A considerable amount of the research came from files in the National Archives of Australia which had not been accessed previously. The second part consists of short biographies on, I believe, every Qantas flight engineer dating back to 1941.

[nitpicker330]

"the role of the FE was fuzzy"

What crap and I only had to read 2 lines............:=

Anybody that's ever sat in a FD with a FE knows exactly what he was there for...... :ok: nothing fuzzy about the vital role he played..:ok:

[Jabawocky]

The FE's Lament 2010 HD - YouTube

:ok:

[CHAIRMAN]

Jaba, you've excelled yourself - that's just awesome:D

[Avid Aviator]

GOLD!!
:D :D

[Jabawocky]

I would love to take all the credit, 99.999% goes to the posting author Baleka.

0.001% to me for remembering where to find it and post it here for your enjoyment.:ok:

[training wheels]

So what happened to Ansett and TAA's flight engineers on the 727 after that type was retired? I know some airlines in Asia trained their FEs to become pilots because their time on the flight deck was valuable experience. Did the same happen to Ansett and TAA's flight engineers?

[onehunglong]

Pilot training was an option that was available and taken up by some FEs, mainly the younger ones, many of whom are now captains.

The older, senior ones were happy to take redundency which was years of service based for payout calculations.

A third option, redeployment to other areas such as operations, training or maintenance, proved impracticable due to opposition from the affected unions and lack of will.

[Wunwing]

The Qantas FEs had an option to train as pilots and a number did from 1989. This was one reason why the Qantas FEs who were by that stage members of AIFEA, merged with AIPA.

In 2002 the B747 Classics went from 13 aircraft to 6 remaining B747 300s and a large number of FEs took voluntary redundancy based on a years for service formula. The rest soldiered on to the end. In most but not all cases they went beyond their planned 55 age retirement so most were happy.

The forgotten FEs were those on the B727 freighters who got the chop when the B727s were banned as too noisy just prior to a Federal election.That was coincidence I'm assured.

With the exception of the RAAF Orions FEs and the few remaining C130 H FEs the only remaining FEs in Australia are the 4 on the HARS L1049/C121.

Wunwing

[mustafagander]

Surprisingly few Qantas FEOs took up the retraining option in 1987. I can't remember how many applied, but it was nowhere near the more than 100 eligible. In the event, only 27 went to Bankstown for the retraining package starting in 1989. There were a few more who did a different scheme some years later.

This retraining option was not the reason AIFEA joined AIPA - FEO numbers were projected to fall through the floor and we simply couldn't afford to "go it alone" any longer.

[4Greens]

The best thing about flying with FE's was relieving them in cruise as a Second Officer. Learned more about the aircraft than you would ever do as a straight through pilot. Always valuable knowledge further down the track. Thanks to all the FE's I flew with.

[Wunwing]

I acually said it was one of the reasons that AIFEA and AIPA merged and it certainly was why the timing of the merge occurred when it did.

At the time AIFEA was being courted by a number of unions who wanted a foot in the aircrew door under the then minimum 10,000 union members rule.

As Brian Hill explains in his soon to be released book, it was a very successful move for both parties.

Wunwing

[ozaggie]

Nice one Jaba! Made my Sunday :)

[Engineer_aus]

The HARS cat is 3 crew. There is the FE spot just under the wings.

[fergineer]

Having just looked at the FE's position on the Cat I would think that it was a pretty uncomfortable place to be, good view of the engines I suppose through the windows.

[Exaviator]

Having spent some fifteen years flying various models of the 747 Classic I can say without any reservation that the F/E was a valuable member of the crew. As to be expected, some were better than others, but their contribution to the ease and safe operation of the aircraft was invaluable. :ok:

[Dora-9]

What a great video, Jaba - talk about bringing back a flood of memories!

Interesting to see the -200F's horrible retractable flight-deck access ladder gets a viewing too. It never felt very secure, and after a friend fell down it and broke his leg I was even warier of this contraption! The -400F had a fixed ladder on the side; a much better arrangement. One of Cathay's -200F's was the second last one off the line at Boeing; if you wanted to wind up the FE you'd tell him he "was sitting in the second last FE seat built in the Western world". It always produced a reaction!

I'm looking forward to reading Brian's book. I flew with FE's in Ansett for a year (on the B727), I confess as a group they really didn't make much of an impression. As part of the B737-300 intro ("bringing EFIS to the masses") I also did a fair bit of jump seating on the B767 to see how they did it - having a FE on that aeroplane was a black joke if ever there was one.

When I got to Cathay though, it was very different. Their FE's were totally integrated into the operation and were very much "a third pair of eyes". They were invaluable, and with one notable exception, an extremely professional bunch of guys indeed. It was a privilege to have flown with them....

[tarmac12]

I was always under the impression that to be an FE you had to have a CPL and a type rating on the aircraft being flown. This doesn't appear to be the case. Can someone please explain to me what used to be the system for training as an FE and when did it change to the CPL type rated system?

Cheers

[Wunwing]

It was never a CPL system in Australia for FEs.

There were two different beasts in the 3rd seat in some parts of the world. The FE known as a Professional Flight Engineer (PFE)and the Second Officer.
The distinction came about in the USA after US ALPA decided that they didn't want another union on their flight decks.That situation flowed on to US influenced countries such as the South American region. However at the same time some airlines maintained the PFE system. This was particularly true for freight because a lot of their FEs also had a A&P ground license.

The Europeans especially the Poms went the FE way.In Australia you did a Flight Engineers license through an airline with in house training. Most were selected from LAMEs. There was no requirement for pilot time although most had some.It is a specific FEs license, not a Pilots license.Type rating was done with the Pilots. Normally all practical training was done as a 3 person team from ground sim to endorsment.We all did the same theory although sometimes the FE got a bit more engineering theory. Later it was all the same.

We never had any formal IFR training but we were pretty good on the monitoring and in the sim we were often given flying. We were expected to be full bottle on the Jep charts and it wasn't unusual over Europe, especially Russia (in the early times there) to not only monitor INS loading, but often to load the INS

Over the years the airlines expectations changed. When I started my first sector under training was done by a Senior Check Engineer on his last trip. At 10,000' the headphones were taken away and I was told that the rest was pilot duties on the radio.By the time I finished on B747s we were fully integrated with the FE fully monitoring all the pilots actions and the pilots monitoring our duties. It was very much a 3 person team and we all had radio licenses. Our duties included all company coms if we didn't have a Second Officer. Even if we did we often did company coms if there were complex engineering requirements

Having now gone back 50 years on the Connie, I realise where the old FE was coming from. On the Connie you sit in dropped floor and its difficult to see out the window,you cant easily monitor the pilots and they can't see you. The B707 and DC8 for the better, changed all that.

Wunwing

[onehunglong]

The Purple Stripe will be launched by Graeme McMahon, previously Managing Director, Ansett, at a function in Melbourne next Friday.

[Wingnuts]

One person who will not be at the book launch is Sir Rod, G. Mc’s successor at Ansett.

It is said by some that Rod’s primary mission at Ansett was to prepare it for sale. That is, to make it profitable. Or if that was not possible, to subtlety asset strip it and divest it of expensive liabilities. At the top of the list was redundant FEs with their “guaranteed a job to age 60” agreement.

Rumours of dodgy sale and lease back of aircraft deals did the rounds, Haymen and Hamilton Islands went for a song, and a number of lucrative in-house departments such as flight catering were flogged off. That is not to suggest that the airline’s owner was the motivator or beneficiary of any shenanigans. Coincidentally, the newspapers and so called “investigative journalists” at the time were relatively silent on the unfolding debacle Ansett was to become.

By 2000, Ansett was a zombie and Rod, on secondment from News Corp, moved on to weave his magic at British Airways. However, he left some unfinished business at Ansett as the more tenacious FEs, the “dirty dozen”, were still on the books. At one stage they were locked out for the best part of a year and then sacked for not resigning. Needless to say, the Federal Court ordered their reinstatement.

Fable has it that Rod was amazed to find BA still had FEs, and he relished the opportunity to continue his crusade against them. The decision to retire the Concorde is controversial, but the Paris crash allowed Rod to pull the trigger on its FEs.

It is somewhat ironic then, that the Concorde was instrumental in cementing the FE’s career at Ansett. According to FE folklore, in early 1980, the controlling owner of Ansett, Sir Peter Abeles, a white knuckle flyer, was en route across the Atlantic on the Concorde when an engine failed. At supersonic speed the deceleration is neck snapping, and the subsequent required high speed descent from 60,000 feet to 3 engine altitude is arse puckering to say the least.

Following level off the captain did a cabin walk through, apologising for the big dipper ride and assuring everything was under control. The passengers found his presence comforting. After about 10 minutes however, someone within ear shot of Sir Peter, suggested to the captain that perhaps it was now time for him to return to the cockpit and “attend to things that need attending.” The captain responded that because the Concorde was 3 crew, he was basically surplus to requirements in the cockpit. The aircraft was being well looked after by his First Officer and Engineer, his primary concern now was to calm cabin anxiety.

Those words resonated with Sir Peter. His knees stopped shaking and he silently vowed that any future aircraft of Ansett would be 3 crew. In 1984, he overrode his management and guaranteed his FEs a job until the normal retirement age of 60. And as far as he was able, he stood by it. Ansett’s B767s were unique in that they were 3 crew.

At the behest of United Airlines with an order for 50, the 767 was originally designed as 3 crew and the first 30 were built as such. Basically, the pilots' overhead panel was located to the side as the FE’s panel, supplemented by FE in-flight access to the 2 crew, ground only, troubleshooting facility. Then, in response to Airbus coming out with its 2 crew A300, Boeing reconfigured it to 2 crew. The buyers of the first 30 were offered the option of conversion to 2 crew at a cost of $2 mil each. Ansett, the launch customer of the 76, and true to Sir Peter’s word, was the only one to stay 3 crew. No wonder he was referred to as “Saint Peter” by his FEs.


Click below for video of the Ansett 3 crew 767 cockpit. It takes about 3 minutes to get into the business part.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z412qiDfRio

FE PANEL, ANSETT 767
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x630/fepanelthepurplestripe_zps74d3145c_1__3a9d44cf4eb8acbc165492 fed4323c995761527f.jpg

Photo, The Purple Stripe

The story of how the incredible job guarantee actually firmed up is also intriguing.

Abeles, a poor Hungarian Jewish immigrant to Australia, had built his TNT transport conglomerate, which included Ansett, on the backs of his workers. He was reputed to have been ruthless and screwed many along the way. However, now in his twilight years and failing health, he did not want to be thought of as a heartless old prick. He had mellowed, and desired to be remembered as a fair man of compassion… and the FEs were in the right spot at the right time.

They and Ansett management were aware of Abeles’ bias to 3 man crew. For the FEs, realising their precarious future, it was imperative that an industrial document be drawn up and signed as quickly as possible. Management were of course horrified at the prospect of being permanently saddled with a group of workers whose job was going the way of the dinosaur and did their best to stall negotiations, hoping Abeles would come to his senses. Many months of protracted meetings were headed nowhere. The FEs figured their only chance was to bypass management and talk to Abeles directly. His minders ensured that was never going to happen. However, about October 84, Abeles walked unannounced into a meeting at TNT’s Redfern HQ. He assured his ashen faced team that he was there only as an observer and asked that negotiations continue as though he was not in the room. About 2 hours later, Abeles looked at his watch, and as abruptly as he arrived, excused himself, “My diabetes you know, I must have lunch.”

A minute or two later, one of the FEs, Dave, also excused himself, and said he was going for a leak.

It was a hunch, but sure enough, there was Abeles in the gents fronting the trough, but nothing was flowing. Dave too fronted up and went through the motions but he did not really have the urge. Can you imagine the conversation?

Abeles: We have the same problem.

Dave: Yes, it’s easily fixed though.

Abeles: My doctor says I need to lose weight. Not so easy.

Dave: You’re losing all your FEs. They’re going to Cathay.

Abeles: You have a problem too? You need to get your prostate checked.

Dave: Can we agree on it?

Abeles: 5 minutes ago I was busting for a pee. I’m here now and nothing.

Dave: Nothing is happening in there. You’re the boss. Just tell it what you want.

A few seconds later, and the piss flowed.

Dave: Tell those other dicks the same.

Together they returned to the meeting room. Abeles announced, “We agreed. You just need to fix the details,” and walked out again.


In 1988, when it was finally determined that Ansett’s A320s would be 2 crew, to stem a second wave of FEs going to Cathay, Abeles reaffirmed his job guarantee with a personal letter to each FE.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/568x757/ables_fe_job_for_life_letter_e9564857b57a061db2edb9a320e0547 13a7aa6e3.jpg

[Old Fella]

Many FE's from the RAAF moved to civil airlines in Australia and Asia. All RAAF C130 & P3 FE's were recruited from the technical trade ranks and underwent comprehensive training courses. Pre the C130J the minimum crew requirement for the C130 was 2 Pilots/one Flight Engineer although a Navigator and Loadmaster were carried as well. On the C130 for many years the FE would perform his airborne duties and conduct any rectifications required when away base, within the scope of the various spares carried on board. Each C130 carried a complete compliment of Maintenance Manuals on board. The Caribou 3rd Crewman, variously known as Crewman Technical, Loadmaster and eventually as a Flight Engineer also performed similarly to the C130 & P3 FE's.

Having been Qantas trained to the B707 I appreciated the standards, the standardisation and the integration of the FE into the crew. Cathay Pacific similarly on all counts.

[onehunglong]

Nicely spun, wingnuts.

If there is any discrepancy between your post and the book, which one do I go with?

A bit more re Ansett's 767s, in 1994 , after duely compensating the FEs, they purchased and put into service a two crew 767. I think the pilots were dual endorsed, 2/3 crew. This ultimately led to the conversion of the original 5 three crew aircraft to two crew in 1998.

For more on the 767 cockpit configurations, and yes, there was a 757 three crew option scheduled, go here:
Boeing: Commercial Airplanes - 767 Flight Deck (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_fltdeck.html)
Unfortunately, sound has been deleted by copy right police.

[Wingnuts]

A pic of the FE's panel after conversion to 2 crew. It looks to be VH-RMD on account it has the EROPS E/E Flow Monitor. (left of oxy mask)

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/545x360/b767_277ansettflightengineersstationafterconversionto2crew_z ps66138c90_1__8f9ee87bea37599023222758aa895e70af1eb76e.jpg

[training wheels]

Click below for video of the Ansett 3 crew 767 cockpit. It takes about 3 minutes to get into the business part.

Ansett AN22 Flight Deck 14 June 1987 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_f44oPPEYCE)


Thanks for the link to the video. I watched it right to the end. Nice to see the captain hand fly the 767 all the way up to 8000 ft (does that still happen these days, or is it autopilot on at 1000 ft AGL??).

Oh, and the overhead panel looks quite bare. Were most of the instruments on the overhead panel relocated to the FE's console panel?

[Wingnuts]

2 Crew:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x452/7672crewoverheadpanel0536893_zps854da794_1__46217aea62991d59 c83bf7fd76ccfb80c9e71621.jpg



3 Crew, VH-RMD
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/496x480/767rmd3crewoverheadpaneljpg_zpseb3bea0c_1__bb8307a253a7b4a66 17ab9343774fd22f1c06b01.jpg

[Wingnuts]

Last flight of VH-RME in 3 crew configuration. Also, last flight of Ruff, trying hard not to smile.
Aren't they beautiful? I can see why the FEs were so reluctant to give up their panel!
Photo, The Purple Stripe
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x392/7673crewamprufflastfltimg_4535_zpsa6433c03_1__8bcb1a42406f0d 368472584a3862a604bb5f4b79.jpg

[Grogmonster]

I have been reading this thread and wondered what happened to Peter Clark, Ansett FE, who was Brisbane based?

Groggy

[UTW]

"Face the front!" he used to say if the F/O wanted to have a look at the panel!!
Cheers Peter :D
They were fun times indeed....:ok:
Anyone heard from Russell B? (AN)

[Desert185]

Kudos and much respect to all the PFE's I enjoyed working with over the years.

[nznative]

In June 1999, the sale of Air New Zealand's Boeing B747-200 fleet to VIRGIN abruptly put paid to the careers and aspirations of many..

This website http://flight-engineers-air-nz.********.co.nz/ is being developed in an effort to capture, record and archive the low-down on the personnel, plus those many historic events from the 60 year era of AIR NEW ZEALAND's FLIGHT ENGINEERS

Unfortunately the link above to our website appears to be corrupted
Try Google searching ….
AIR NEW ZEALAND's FLIGHT ENGINEERS (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CHAQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflight-engineers-air-nz.********.com%2F&ei=h7QlUf_zCqz3mAXQkoGoAg&usg=AFQjCNGnBVVo6ChX9nc076zn_YQ3sM6RjQ&sig2=M8Dwn-0qsG0WOdKnGagjlg&bvm=bv.42661473,d.dGY)

[nznative]

Unfortunately the linkabove to our website was corrupted

Try Google searching ….

AIR NEWZEALAND's FLIGHT ENGINEERS (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CHAQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fflight-engineers-air-nz.********.com%2F&ei=h7QlUf_zCqz3mAXQkoGoAg&usg=AFQjCNGnBVVo6ChX9nc076zn_YQ3sM6RjQ&sig2=M8Dwn-0qsG0WOdKnGagjlg&bvm=bv.42661473,d.dGY)

[crocodile redundee]

Getting back to the 2 Books- I have purchased & read both & am very impressed with the honesty & openess of both scripts. A very fitting tribute to the FEO profession, which rightly claims to have NEVER lost a human life on ANY Australian registered aircraft that had a dedicated FEO as a Crew member , due to accident.
Time marches on & the sad state of Aviation in Australia reflects the bastardisation & tyranny that has beset the industry over the past 25 years.
The rot started after the 1990 Pilot Dispute & has never reversed.
The disaster of the A380 as far as earning its keep is still haunting any airline that has them in their fleet. Time will tell what lies around the corner in the industry; I am for one , Very, Very, glad I am retired & out of the current scene , but have vivid wonderful memories of my career in the industry in the halcyon years of the pure jet era from the mid 1960's.:)

[crocodile redundee]

Getting back to the 2 Books- I have purchased & read both & am very impressed with the honesty & openess of both scripts. A very fitting tribute to the FEO profession, which rightly claims to have NEVER lost a human life on ANY Australian registered aircraft that had a dedicated FEO as a Crew member , due to accident.
Time marches on & the sad state of Aviation in Australia reflects the bastardisation & tyranny that has beset the industry over the past 25 years.
The rot started after the 1990 Pilot Dispute & has never reversed.
The disaster of the A380 as far as earning its keep is still haunting any airline that has them in their fleet. Time will tell what lies around the corner in the industry; I am for one , Very, Very, glad I am retired & out of the current scene , but have vivid wonderful memories of my career in the industry in the halcyon years of the pure jet era from the mid 1960's.:)

[Wingnuts]

A previous instance of the displacement of the FE from the cockpit occurred in the 1940’s, after World War 2, when the Lancaster bomber was converted to the civilian Lancastrian, of which Qantas operated 9.

The Qantas Lancastrian, without heating or sound insulation, carried nine passengers in a row of seats facing inwards along the port side of what was previously the bomb bay. It flew to Japan, South Africa, and in conjunction with BOAC, the Kangaroo Service. The typical crew was 2 pilots, navigator and wireless operator.

In the Lancaster, the FE sat beside the pilot on a collapsible seat known as a “second dicky seat”. (Almost all British bombers, and most German bombers, had only a single pilot as opposed to American practice of carrying two pilots). For take-off and landing the FE set the throttles as called by the pilot. On bomb target runs, whilst the pilot controlled height and attitude, the FE adjusted speed with power.

Secondary instruments such as engine temps, pressures, and electrics, hydraulics etc. were located on a side mounted panel behind the FE.

If the pilot was incapacitated, it was expected the FE would assume control. Depending on his night flying skills, the options then were either to bail out or risk a crash landing.
Pilot/FE Ops Manual
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/350x531/lancasterpilots_fenotes_zpsd5376606_1__1e038ec67410e8762485d 6cbd278714bcb31a77b.jpg




FE's side panel
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x525/lancaster_fe_panel_4ace828cfd7614416e20d31da6ea948f189b896c. jpg





Single pilot/FE Lancaster
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x466/singlepilot_felancaster_zps201dea5a_1__e9e06b1668c285829203a 2eced11e12475e7b014.jpg




Two pilot Lancastrian (undergoing restoration, hence the odd yoke position).
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x495/twopilotlancastrian_zpsb4f7c021_1__2730c2872b7516c0b16ed14cf 721e362dbe2ec64.jpg

[LeadSled]

Wingnuts et al,
Re. B767 configurations, and two versus three crew on jet aircraft, you cannot sensibly discuss the whole industrial history without referring to the US Presidential Commission that dealt with the dispute of two versus three man crews, what it happened in the US, the Commission findings, and also in Australia.

Boeing did NOT build the B767 (and don't forget the 757) as a three man aeroplane at the request of United, read the history of the above. Boeing were quite cunning, the "three crew" B767 could be converted to two crew in a couple of hours. The Ansett simulator was the same, when it was hired by Qantas, it could be reconfigured to the two man configuration in double quick time.

Indeed, this matter was an important contributor to the breakaway of the AFAP Overseas Branch to form the AIPA. Quite simply, Qantas pilots would not go along with Australian domestic pilots demands for three man crews an any aircraft with 100 (I think that is the right number, it is quite a while ago) or more passenger seats.

Old TAA hands may well recall the industrial dispute about demanding three crew on the B737 --- and being out on the footpath, while their Ansett "colleagues" really coined it with all the extra flying they were doing.

As for Sir Peter Abeles arriving in Australia penniless, simply not true, and he did not start TNT, his original company was Alltrans Transport. Most of the rest of several posts dealing with E.H.P.Abeles owe more to imagination than fact.

Tootle pip!!

[Wingnuts]

Thanks LS. You raise some valid points.

The Presidential Task Force was pivotal because it formalised the 2 crew option. However, its findings were farcical it that they were dictated and predetermined by the commercial reality that Airbus was going 2 crew.

As for United’s 76s, the Boeing web site to which you refer says the first 30 aircraft were built 3 crew. Quote, “By September 1981, Boeing had developed the necessary plans to retrofit airplanes already produced with the three-crew flight deck and to incorporate the new design into the production line, beginning with the 31st airplane.”

Despite the promise of reduced crew costs, United initially demanded a conventional 3 crew cockpit. Again as Boeing has it, “United Airlines was the first to order the 767 (July 14, 1978). After lengthy deliberation, the airline decided that a three-person crew would reduce the introductory risk associated with being the first to put the 767 into revenue service.”

Following the Presidential task force determination, United opted to retrofit its 3 man aircraft to 2 man. United was the first airline to put the 76 into service so I think it is safe to assume some of the first 30 built were United’s.

Ansett stayed 3 crew largely due to the personal guarantee of Abeles to his FEs. The first of the original 5 Ansett 76s, RMG, to be converted to 2 crew, went into the hangar on 28th Jan. 1998 and returned to service on 10th Feb. It involved the installation of new looms to the overhead panel and took more like 2 weeks rather than the 2 hours you imply.

Interestingly, the 76s on which the first Ansett crews did their endorsement at Boeing, had analogue engine instruments on the pilots’ centre panel. The CRTs came later.

I do not know of the 737 dispute to which you refer. That is not to say it did not happen. However, in 1967 TAA had all its DC9s grounded in a dispute with the AFAP for 39 days during which time it is rumoured to have lost about $1 million. Ansett kept its aircraft operating by carrying a third pilot in the jump seat. The dispute was typical of the argy-bargy that was part of the dynamic associated with the introduction of a new aircraft and goes back to the DC6 when TAA’s LAMEs won over TAA the right to sit in its 3rd seat. More on that next time.

And yes, Abeles founded Alltrans which merged with TNT, and was subsequently headed by himself.

[LeadSled]

And yes, Abeles founded Alltrans which merged with TNT, and was subsequently headed by himself.Wingnuts,
Along with George Rocky, and they were anything but penniless.
Every "three man B767 " that was delivered could be converted to the two man configuration in hours, including the amendments to the AFM.
If the Ansettt conversions took so long, somebody had previously removed the looms to which you refer.
Tootle pip!!

[onehunglong]

NOW THIS IS A FE PANEL!

For 360-degree panorama of the flight engineer's station on a B-36: six reciprocating R-4360s and four J-47 jets go here:

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/062/B-36J%20Engineer.html (http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/062/B-36J%20Engineer.html)

http://i57.tinypic.com/259ve4n.jpg


Note: The four J-47 engines were added on the D and later versions of the B-36; they are not shown below.


http://i64.tinypic.com/qz0r47.jpg


And the Concord
http://i66.tinypic.com/awrck6.jpg
For 360 view go here:
http://www.kenmcbride.com/concorde/index.html



Concord FE interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dyNEPRHyxg



Antonov 225:
http://i68.tinypic.com/28b5no4.jpg


225 Cockpit
http://i68.tinypic.com/29n6t21.jpg


Bristol Brabazon
http://i64.tinypic.com/30aavd4.jpg
And the 12 engine Dornier DoX
http://i68.tinypic.com/14v3fpy.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/27z9hm8.jpg


747 FE Panel during engine start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPp5E55y0rQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPp5E55y0rQ)


AAF Training Film "The B-29 Flight Engineer" WW2 (full)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5D1f_1XU8w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5D1f_1XU8w)


P-3 Flight Engineer Recruitment Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuYPtOwGYjY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuYPtOwGYjY)