Video: air-to-air refuelling Nato E-3 goes slightly wrong...

[Stratofreighter]

Bad Day for the AWACS - YouTube

...but only slightly... :}

Things get interesting from about 0.25 ...

More details through Close call: E-3 AWACS almost collides with KC-135 tanker mid-air « The Aviationist (http://theaviationist.com/2012/10/19/close-call-e3/)

EDIT: original clip got pulled, now see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbQ9LXZwJ78

[tonker]

I shat my pants and I'm in bed:\

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I've had my mitts on the controls of an AWACS for 10 mins. I didn't think it could move that rapidly. :eek: WTF???

[Danny42C]

Calls to mind the Spanish refuelling collision many years ago. Don't remerber all the detais, but a very good book was written at the time: "The Bombs of Palomares". Worth looking up.

Danny42C.

[Pure Pursuit]

Mission Crew: Deselect Net 1 and pray!

**** a duck...

[Wensleydale]

Quite early in my AWACS career I sat in Seat 5 (the jump seat) for a landing in a NATO E-3A. The captain was Italian, as was the Flight Engineer and the Navigator: fortunately the co-pilot was USAF. On the landing roll, the captain suffered from "pilot induced oscillations" in pitch. Rather than hold, he started to chase it and things got rapidly worse until the American Co-pilot cooly called "I have control" and took charge of the cockpit.

I always refused seat 5 for landing again (about 7,000 hrs worth) having discovered why The Pope always kissed the tarmac on arrival having flown Alitalia.

[BOAC]

I could not make out the detail - did the 'dog's dick' break off inside the AWACS receptacle or is there an 'auto' panic disconnect on the boom - or did the operator clear the boom?

[D-IFF_ident]

And there was me, thinking receiver AAR is so simple you could zero-flight time train it in the Sim!

:ouch:

[Tankertrashnav]

Reminds me very much of a Victor AAR training sortie when our new boss was being instructed by the senior squadron AARI. On a missed approach, instead of throttling back and trying again he decided to have a another quick stab at the drogue, which ended up in him rapidly approaching the underside of the other tanker. An abrupt nose down to avoid collison (as in the AWACS/KC135 incident) induced something like minus 2G and the interior of our aircraft became a shambles, with loose kit hitting the roof and falling back all over the place. I have a vivid picture of the squash in my cup heading vertically for the roof. Obviously we were all strapped in for AAR or there would have been injuries.

I recall our aircraft was declared Cat 3 and spent some time in the hangar before returning to service. Can't imagine the AWACS would have fared much better.

[vascodegama]

If you think that's bad you should try refuelling the USN (obviously the AC not the ships).

[BOAC]

Having only ever tanked from 20 feet of flailing hose and basket attached to the boom :), here's another question (for the big round eyes in the pod) that I have often pondered. How much 'movement' is there on the boom/probe assembly when plugged in? Presumably if the receiver moves too far up/down/forwards there is a danger of breaking the boom?

[Easy Street]

The 'solid' bit of the boom doesn't make contact with the receiver (or it shouldn't, anyway!). There is an extendable "sting" that comes out that actually makes contact, and moves in-out as required to allow for receiver movement whilst in contact. As the boom approaches the limits of its travel, this "sting" can be rapidly withdrawn to prevent the receiver dragging the boom outside of its safe range of movement. I'm not sure whether this emergency retraction happens automatically or is commanded by the operator, though.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Glad i wasn't in the front seat of the receiver; I'm in the same gang as tonker!

Duncs:ok:

[BOAC]

Easy - what is the normal 'length' of the 'sting'? It always struck me that a forward and upward motion by the receiver stood an excellent change of either tipping the tanker on its nose or pushing the whole boom through the belly which is why I thought the HDU system was better although with a lower flow rate.

Some 'amusing' footage here Air-to-air refuelling - when things go wrong - YouTube including a helo attempting circumcision:)

[fergineer]

Reminds me of a trip at MPA in an Albert when we had a false trail. Sellected wind and the basket fell off, narrowly missing the Staish who was trying to sneak up behind us....The basketless hose came in at a great rate of knots and not only filled the cargo compartment with fuel but with bits of wire and rubber. The Loady MB managed to get into a very small space before me and TT managed to get to the stop switch. Staish legged it home so that he could land as we made a rapid approach took the fast turn off and left a fuel filled Albert in the middle of the dispersal......Talking to the Flight Safety Officer afterwards we mentioned the radio active beta lights......It was mid winter and the snow was deep on the ground.....He ordered the RIC out to try and recover the drogue we did not venture down anywhere near the NAAFI for a long while.

[hum]

looks like the Helo succeeded :ooh:

[D-IFF_ident]

Joking aside, I heard there may be injuries amongst the crew in the receiver. I hope everyone is okay.

Regarding the mechanics of boom refuelling:

The KC-135 boom is controlled at all times by the boom operator. A telescope control is used to extend and retract the inner part of the boom while another control deflects the ruddervators, directly in pitch and roll and indirectly in azimuth (yaw). The boom operator manipulates the controls to lift the boom above the receiver, control the boom through the receiver's bow-wave and to 'put the pole in the hole'. After contact is made the boom operator maintains direct control over the boom and manipulates it to follow the receiver's movements in the refuelling envelope.

If the receiver moves towards the limits of the refuelling envelope then the boom operator commands the latches within the receiver's receptacle to release the boom. The same thing happens for a normal disconnect, a limit disconnect or if the receiver pilot commands the disconnect.

There is a contact envelope, within which the boom can enter the receptacle - NB that the nozzle angle is not controllable, so lateral angles are most limiting. After contact is made there is a bigger, disconnect envelope, within which the boom can safely remain in contact with the receiver's receptacle (the nozzle can bend by up to 60 degrees in all directions). Finally, there is a mechanical envelope, beyond which damage will probably occur.

Look up ATP-56 if you want to see what the overall boom limits are.
Look up STANAG 7191 if you want specifics of the envelope limits.

Modern booms work differently, with a lot of functions now automated. And there are plenty if examples of damage occurring by placing the receiver outside of the refuelling (disconnect) envelope.

:8

[Wensleydale]

This is a shot of an E-3D tanking correctly over Afghanistan in 2002. Photo courtesy of Combat Camera. I am sure that the co-pilot (probably AP?) will know whether this is 8 or 23 Sqn.

http://www.8squadron.co.uk/history_images/aar_close.jpg

Although capable of both probe and drogue and boom tanking, the boom gets the fuel quicker and is usually the preferred option as US tankers tend to be more prolific in theatre. However,as ex-mission crew, I am sure that someone from the flight deck could explain things better than I.

[ViciousSquirrel]

Did anyone else notice that it was the tanker that inadvertently pushed over into the AWACS?

[BEagle]

The E-3 never stabilised properly before the boom operator attempted to refuel it. It was in a climb when contact was made during (I think) a turn and continued climbing until the brute force disconnect.....

The whole sequence appears rushed and unstable.

The extreme pitch PIO will undoubtedly have caused damage and injury to the E-3 and its crew....:(

[Stratofreighter]

The extreme pitch PIO will undoubtedly have caused damage and injury to the E-3 and its crew....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif Indeed, it did:
Scramble Messageboard • Information (http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=601808#p601808) :(

[D-IFF_ident]

Squirrel makes a good point - the 135 is notorious for its AP disconnecting if a large receiver moves too quickly in close proximity to the tanker's tail. The interaction of the aerodynamic forces can cause the AP to disconnect, almost always leaving the tanker with a nose-down pitching moment.

The incident probably started quite early-on when, as Beags points-out, the receiver didn't stabilize before the contact. He then went high in the envelope, boom initiated a disconnect, receiver moved quickly, AP disconnected, brown trousers all round.

[BEagle]

Squirrel makes a good point - the 135 is notorious for its AP disconnecting if a large receiver moves too quickly in close proximity to the tanker's tail.

Hopefully they do what we used to do in the VC10 and keep their hands on the yoke during AAR, ready to take control instantly if there's an AP disconnect? I only recall that being a problem in the VC10K when refuelling the absurd Nimrod AEW3 with its 'platypus' nose.

And at least the boom didn't fall off though, eh D-IFF......

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/ouch.jpg

:eek:

[Tankertrashnav]

The extreme pitch PIO will undoubtedly have caused damage and injury to the E-3 and its crew....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif


In the Victor incident I referred to in post #9 we would almost certainly have been injured had we not been strapped in. Isn't it SOP for all crew members to be strapped in during AAR, whatever the type?

[lj101]

Isn't it SOP for all crew members to be strapped in during AAR, whatever the type

No it's not.

[keesje]

Yes, staring at the AWACS stabilizer I see no dramatic movements. Maybe the tanker pilot wanted to tie his shoe.

[Tankertrashnav]

No it's not.


Sounds like a good case for rewriting SOPs then. Certainly was in the 6 years when I was on tankers - seemed pretty prudent to me.

[Wensleydale]

Sentry SOPs involved strapping in, gloves on, securing all loose items etc (although often still working down back although some kit switched off so books and sortie paperwork often still on desk tops). Once stable behind tanker, Captain's discretion to allow "minimum" movement through the aircraft to achieve tasks (not for cooking). Often allowed passengers (one at a time, escorted by a crew member) to have a look at tanker through doorway for a few seconds - again, once stable behind the tanker.

Mind you, whenever we had an SOP then the AEOps would break it because they knew better...... Watch how quickly they unstrap after landing despite the FRCs! (and they knew better because "thats what we did on Nimrods").:=

[INT_QRU]

I don't remember the rear crew strapping in as SOP during Nimrod MR2 AAR. You could get a great view of the tanker by crouching on the floor just behind the eng.

[stickmonkeytamer]

Sometimes, it gets quite "close"...

http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo116/sband/sentrytooclose.jpg

SMT

[Easy Street]

PN,

The length of the 'sting' is 18.5 feet. That, and everything else you could wish to know about boom refuelling from a KC-135, can be found here in ATP56B (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/148022B3_5056_A318_A84E2113F75DFB0B.pdf). Turns out that the disconnect is automatic!

[Rick777]

Reminds me of when I got rear ended by a B52. My ruddervators (the v shaped control surfaces on the boom) left notches in his slipway doors. Other than that no damage except to the B52 pilot who was getting a check ride from SAC StanEval. As a tanker pilot you can feel the movement of the receiver even with the auto pilot on. I had the throttles on the firewall before he hit us.

[D-IFF_ident]

Thanks for the pick-up Easy. I should have known about the limit switches.

Maybe I should read that document sometime. :ooh:

[glojo]

My thoughts on this is..

How did this footage get into the public domain?

Sould the military allow its personnel to carry unauthorised cameras either video or still when on operations be that land, sea or sky?

If this footage has been 'leaked' then will disciplinary action be taken as the author of this footage must be known.

[pontifex]

Beagle,

If you thought it was interesting to have the AEW Nimrod prodding you you should have been in the one behind. The bow wave from the nose radome always tried to push the drogue aside. I think I only made contact two or three times during the trials and I believe I was the only one to do so. Not boasting; it's just that I had many more attempts than any one else. Incidentally the AEW, despite it's obvious failings, actually handled pretty well.

[Art Field]

Many moons ago a Victor captain was selected to train up as an Air to Air Refuelling Instructor, He was already qualified, of course, to receive fuel whilst sitting in the left hand seat. Now was to was the time to see how he got on in the right hand seat, He joined and moved astern smoothly so was cleared for contact. He approached rather fast and high, his instructor told him to drop back. Unfortunately he reverted to his left hand seat procedures, attempting to lower the nose by pushing forward the centre position throttles and pulling back on the stick thinking he was throttling back. The susequent bunt to recover found three rear crew members attached to the cabin roof and understandingly somewhat upset. The weather at base had gone nasty so the aircraft was gently flown to a diversion airfield where the rear crew were at least partialy recompensed in the bar. The pilot did not become an AARI.

[BOAC]

A familiar story, like trying to tank or formate from the RHS of a Lightning. Only difference being it was just two of us and we were well strapped in:)

[BEagle]

He approached rather fast and high, his instructor told him to drop back.

Hi Arters, hope you're keeping well?

Was said instructor a QFI? If so, surely the instinct would have been "I have control", followed by a re-demo?

During my AARI training, the instructor (whilst pretending to be the student) made such a ridiculously fast approach to contact that I only just had time to take control and abort the approach. After getting my breath back, I didn't need to debrief anything at the time, as the Air Engineer said it all for me.....

"You daft c**t, what the f**k were you playing at?"

[Courtney Mil]

BEags,

I think calling your student "daft" may have been a little harsh. Easy in hindsight, I know.

[Just This Once...]

Yes the 'd-word' is frowned upon in the CRM universe; everything else looked ok in the FE debrief so no doubt he was an instructor in his own right.

CRM line from the past…. still sitting in a very quiet cockpit with aircraft at random angle some distance from runway whilst warm engines turned wet grass into steam.

'Well as a plus point I like the way you appreciated the wind when capturing the localizer'.

[Chinny Crewman]

glojo do you work in JHC?

[BEagle]

Do sharpen up and RTFM, Courtney old bean ;) :

I didn't need to debrief anything at the time, as the Air Engineer said it all for me.....

"You daft c**t, what the f**k were you playing at?"

As I wrote, 'twas my brutally honest Air Eng who came out with the comment, not me. True though it was!

[Tankertrashnav]

Art Field - your story sounds very similar to mine, with the exception that in our case it was the loose objects in the a/c which ended up on the roof - not us!

In our case our u/t man in the LHS ended his career with rings (thick and thin) all the way up his sleeve, so it certainly didnt do his career any harm.

Twas ever thus.

[Courtney Mil]

Ah. I see. Skimming the thread doesn't always do it. Sorry. Sharpening up immediately, Sir.

[BEagle]

Sharpening up immediately, Sir.

That's the ticket! Baayyy!!

:)

[McC]

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w70/mcc757/Falklands%201982/HercAAR-1.jpg

[Art Field]

Fair to middling thanks Beags. Yes the other pilot (me) was a graduate of the Little Rissie school of aviation instruction and provided the push to clear the tanker. The instructor riding controls technique has to be used with caution, I remember one pilot thought his tnstructer was helping a bit too much so he only pretended to input the controls and watched a perfect approach and contact and was praised for it. The instructor must not show lack of confidence though I admit I had my worst instructional moments when instructing receiving. Managed over 1100 personal contacts in my time.

[Alloa Akbar]

AAR is always going to be a twitchy bum business. I hear that the chaps down in Spain are still having boom problems on their Tanker?

Beagle - I noticed the A310 MRTT down in Getafe earlier in the week, mod and upgrade??

[BEagle]

I noticed the A310 MRTT down in Getafe earlier in the week, mod and upgrade??

Are you sure it wasn't actually the Airbus Military A310 Flight Test Bed aircraft? That is now painted grey and carries similar military-style markings as those on the A400M.