Poor guys, never stood a chance

[NutLoose]

Syrian Helicopter downed

http://cdnvideos.telegraph.co.uk/NhNGs4NjqhRlyju2G3EGkpVWZnm3QXB8/DOcJ-FxaFrRg4gtDEwOm9jOjBrOzWosu?geo_country=GB

Syrian helicopter reportedly downed by rebels over Idlib - World News (http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/17/14514429-syrian-helicopter-reportedly-downed-by-rebels-over-idlib?lite)

[Avitor]

What is wrong with Islam, in that they seem to be unable to negotiate without resorting to violence?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Why "poor guys"? They are military, carrying ordinance by the look of that explosion to use on the rebels that shot them down. They weren't thinking "Poor guys" when they use that ordinance.

[Bob Viking]

I see your point but they were just following orders like every other soldier is when he does bad things. It's not their fault that their Generals (and politicians) are a bunch of nutjobs.
Despite the fact I think the Syrian regime have completely lost the plot, it's still a shame when fellow aviators are killed.
BV:(

[The Helpful Stacker]

I see your point but they were just following orders like every other soldier is when he does bad things.

Hmm, the Nuremberg (or 'Superior Orders') Defence.

Very sticky ground and one where an individual has to weigh up which is more serious, possible breach of national law (for refusing an order) or possible breach of international law (for carrying out an order).

[melmothtw]

Very sticky ground and one where an individual has to weigh up which is more serious, possible breach of national law (for refusing an order) or possible breach of international law (for carrying out an order).
I agree Helpful Stacker (we had a similar discussion about the rights and wrongs of 'following orders' in a previous thread relating to the shooting down of a Syrian helicopter).

Out of interest, is it not national law to disobey an unlawful order?

[BOAC]

Yup - I'd call that a kill.

That looked like a fairly high shot. Anyone know what the missile was? Have they got some decent SAMs?

[lj101]

Why "poor guys"

Why? Because he has compassion for fellow human beings.

[Torque Tonight]

Crikey. At first I thought this was another view of the shootdown seen last month, but when I saw the end result this clearly is a new event.

That was quite some explosion, much bigger than I would expect from a manpad (of which I could see no trail) or fuel tanks going up. If it was ordnance on the aircraft cooking off then what the hell were the carrying.

It's sometimes quite difficult to tell who are the goodies and who are the baddies in conflicts like this, but regardless I think most military aviators have a level of mutual respect even across lines of conflict, and so yes, poor guys. As an ex RW mate, that was pretty horrible to watch.

[NutLoose]

I said poor guys because regardless of beliefs or sides at the end of the day they are fellow human beings who for what ever reason are caught up in a war and their final moments in that must have been horrific. He almost made it.

[Whenurhappy]

Yep - the last few moments of the crew must have been unbelievably terrifying. Whilst not defending their actions supporting the Assad regime, it was still a pretty horrible way to go. Not nice.

[Lonewolf_50]

I am trying to figure out whether or not he was in control of the aircraft as he descended. Main rotor seems to be turning, likely (if a MANPAD is what got him) weapon impact was aft of, or in the aft portion of the cabi.

I base this on where the smoke seemed to be coming out.

(Was engine on the right side shot off? Was it on fire? Spiraling flight path makes it hard to figure out. Were both engines hit?)

Was he flying in a circle in the belief that he'd be dodging missiles (or a further missile?) on the way down?

Was the pilot hit? Was there damage to the control linkage?

Was his tail rotor no longer providing anti torque (i/e severed shaft/cables/servos)?

Was he trying to autorotate down?

A lot of flying questions that the explosion rendered moot rather suddenly.

As an ex-helo jock, that one hits rather close to home.

[BOAC]

I do hope none of the debris hurt anyone on the ground - unless it was Assad's lot.

I suspect the 'final moments in that' were pretty short-lived. Good way to go.

[fantom]

Who are the 'poor guys'?

Are they the ones raining down terror or the civilians?

Answers on a postcard.

Good grief.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Hips are used firing rockets in previous videos on YouTube. Probably cooked off.

I suspect the pilot had the choice of obey an illegal order or your family gets shot, you get shot, then we send someone else anyway.

There's nothing civil about civil wars.

[Basil]

I suspect the 'final moments in that' were pretty short-lived. Good way to go.
Hear, hear!

[Jumping_Jack]

Cool smoke ring!

[downsizer]

I love the way everybody thinks the FSA are great and aren't a bunch of islamist terrorists in the making (or made) :ugh:

Some of the FSA videos online are little better than the ****e AQ put out.

[pr00ne]

Avitor,

Why on earth single out Islam. Are you aware of Christian history? Pretty bloody stuff.

[TEEEJ]

Probably the fuel tank exploding? See following footage of Syrian Mi-8 with internal fuel tank visible.

hNmQkl_w-hc&feature=related

[glad rag]

'wot they run on LPG or summat?

Nice, no uniform and a machine gun.

I believe they hung "irregulars" during the war of independence...:hmm:

[Genstabler]

Negative. They hanged them. I was hung in my youth, but fortunately never hanged.

[Courtney Mil]

Wonderful out-pouring of grief. But let's not get too sentimental about the bad guys. They are fighting a civil war now. This is what war means.

[Avitor]

Avitor,

Why on earth single out Islam. Are you aware of Christian history? Pretty bloody stuff.

Why not?.... and Yes. :cool:

[downsizer]

Wonderful out-pouring of grief. But let's not get too sentimental about the bad guys. They are fighting a civil war now. This is what war means.


Do we really know who the bad guys are? The secular government (who were far from perfect) or the FSA which is slowly being taking over as an Jihadi/Islamist extremist group? The FSA are a whole pandoras box of problems waiting to explode...

[angels]

The choppers have been chucking dustbin loads of TNT out. No subtlety, just IEDS from the air. Hunt around and you can find pics of some of them which did not explode.

My guess is that one of those went off inside the chopper.

[Lonewolf_50]

That would explain quite a bit.

As to "good guys and bad guys" I think some of you miss the point.

This is a civil war, about as uncivil an undertaking as there is. All emerge from that bloody handed.

As I see it, there are no good guys in this fight.

Assad is, no doubt about it, an autocrat and a despot. He's got blood on his hands, as Saddam did in Iraq. He's also, like Saddam was, in charge of a regime that is, believe it or not, more likely to allow for a diverse society (multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi creed) to thrive than many of the Islamists who are fighting him. So long as he's in charge, of course, as is the case with most despots.

No good guys in that crowd, gentlemen.

But go ahead and root for his opponents. I am sure you'll be overjoyed to see Syria become the next Iraq, the next Lebanon, and the next Libya.

The Arab Spring's crop is a red harvest. Enjoy your meal.

[Roland Pulfrew]

I agree with downsizer and Lonewolf on this one. I sometimes wonder just what Cameron and Hague are hoping will come of this? Sadly I don't think it will be any form of western-leaning multi-cultural, secular society. The FSA aren't the good guys in this, anymore than the Assad regime; it is a civil war and we would be best to stay out.

And yes it too felt sorry for the helicopter crew although probably better to go that way than at the hands of the FSA.

[langleybaston]

Can anyone else see the chute attempting to deploy bottom left ........ or is it the old floaters again?

[Locked door]

I think that's a blade with part of the rotor assembly still attached. It's moving way too fast to be a 'chute.

[phil9560]

Accompanied by the standard war cry-'allaha akbar'.Yep God is great.

[dead_pan]

S'funny how some people get all dewy-eyed when 'fellow aviators' are involved, as if they some how are more deserving of our sympathy by virtue of the fact they share a
common vocation. Sure, they may be killing civilians but hey, give them a break, they're doing it from several thousand feet from a helicopter.

[VinRouge]

Killing islamists. Have no problem with that personally.

Anyone remember this?

"Palestinian" arabs response on 11/9 - YouTube I certainly do.

I can also remember seeing graphic videos of what AQ did to chechens loyal to russia and news articles of them having drilled holes in prisoners heads in Iraq.

Quite frankly, a bit of TNT on a parachute pales into insignificance really doesnt it?

[phil9560]

I'm not particuarly dewy eyed.Just the allu chanting makes me question their credentials.Seems to be an all purpose mantra for all kinds of savagery for some groups-decapitations,IEDs et al.Western politicians don't seem to make the link.

[billynospares]

Where is this ally's snack bar ? Must be good everyone seems to shout about it :ok:

[phil9560]

Branches all over the middle east ! Tempted to say the Midlands but thought better of it :=

[Lonewolf_50]

You'll falafel if you eat there ...

Hat, coat, exit ... hell, two minute minor, into the penalty box with me! :=

[henra]

Probably the fuel tank exploding? See following footage of Syrian Mi-8 with internal fuel tank visible.



I strongly tend to agree.
I think the trail you see in the video might be fuel. Possibly pouring out of the aft ramp. The explosion pressure wave only seems to be as big as the fiireball, this too me points to a combustible liquid / vapor explosion rather than HE stuff.

Therefore I don't think it was hit a second time by a missile. Also no trail and too big / fiery of an explosion for a MANPAD or RPG..

[500N]

henra

I agree, that didn't look like an HE explosion to me either,
very much like a fuel explosion.
.

[Lonewolf_50]

henra, thanks.

Makes good sense, the way you have explained it. :ok:

[SRENNAPS]

I do feel sorry for those poor guys that died in that helicopter. They died in horrific circumstances doing a job that they were told to do. They had mothers, fathers and probably wives, daughters and sons. I am sure that if somebody had told them 3 years ago that they would die bombing people in their own country, they would never have believed them.

When I read some of the comments here it makes me realise that humanity really has not got a chance.

Subtle brainwashing, Political Correctness and media distortion of the truth has confused so many people. They really have no idea what is good or what is bad, what is right and what is wrong. They do not know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

They forget history very quickly (if they ever knew it in the first place??). Just look at the very recent history of the Middle East and who has been good or bad in the last 20 years.

When a story first breaks and it is not clear which way it will go people are silent and hesitant to comment, yet when they think they know what is happening (because they have read the newspapers or watched the news) they are quick to comment and quick to judge. It makes them feel important and superior over those that have yet not commented. And so it goes on along the chain.

Very few people of the masses actually have their own opinions, they merely respond to others who happen to be in positions of influence.

But what really frightens me is people’s reluctance to question anything that might be interpreted as being politically incorrect. The word “pathetic and weak” springs to mind, but even worse it will only ultimately end in tears for the whole of humanity.

[phil9560]

I've tried to use irony but plainly speaking -

'THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS'.

[SRENNAPS]

phil9560

I totally agree with you!!

[El Grifo]

Why on earth single out Islam. Are you aware of Christian history? Pretty bloody stuff.

That was then, this is now !

[SASless]

You reckon the shooters and shootee's are all of the Muslim Faith for a starter?

They are butchering each other in typical Muslim fashion.....and just what is new and unique about that?

That they praise Allah for their success should come as no surprise to anyone knowing the general mindset of that part of the World.

[PTT]

Because nobody of any other faith shoots each other, right? :ugh:

The level of wilful ignorance by some is astonishing...

[El Grifo]

It is simply that they are the specialists, gold medalists if you will.

Murder incorporated :suspect:

[Rosevidney1]

I must be in there with the others as it is blindingly obvious to me that it is the Islamic world that is doing most of the shooting, as well as bombing, beheading and laying IEDs.

[Bob Viking]

I'm not supposed to say this (since it is politically incorrect to do so) but absolutely bloody spot on fella!
More and more these days it seems religion is used as an excuse to kill and be killed. At the end of the day these people (and I don't speak just of Muslims) base their lives and values on a very elaborate story book. Maybe I should start killing people who accuse Frodo of being effeminate. Lord of the Rings is my Bible and I take it very seriously!
BV:ugh:

[SRENNAPS]

All,

I do apologise, but having thought about this really hard I have decided to delete my earlier post. I still believe that there is an element of truth in it, but I also believe that the post has the potential to cause offence to some and even possibly affect the good name of PPRuNe; and I would not want that to happen. Therefore I have removed it.

Bob V, thanks for your comment and apologies that my post is now removed.

[El Grifo]

What you posted was absolutely true SRENNAPS.

Never apologise for honesty.

All it takes for such stuff to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

[Bob Viking]

Now you've done it. There is a Hobbit sized Jihad being instigated as we speak. I hope you're happy with yourself.
BV:E

[SRENNAPS]

El Grifo

Thanks,

I know it is so true and I am pretty certain my post would not have resulted in a riot or terrorist attack in my little town in South Wales, but after a bit of thought I was worried it might have led to a negative response to PPRuNe; and that would not be fair to the people that run the website or it members.
I might be over reacting, but with this subject you just never know!!

[Bob Viking]

Freedom of speech eh? How dare you think something that you haven't been told to. I'm not sure why stating facts should be so controversial.
BV:sad:

[TEEEJ]

No wonder the things blow up! I'll just light this fuse with a cigarette.

LrslYDilV78&feature=related

[NutLoose]

Don't they know smoking can seriously damage your health.



Now you've done it. There is a Hobbit sized Jihad being instigated as we speak. I hope you're happy with yourself.
BV

Check for giant footprints in amongst your roses, you will know there then onto you.

[glojo]

Could that explosion have been caused by one of the improvised explosive devices exploding prematurely in the aircraft?


Killing islamists. Have no problem with that personally.
Anyone remember this?




I certainly do.

I can also remember seeing graphic videos of what AQ did to chechens loyal to russia and news articles of them having drilled holes in prisoners heads in Iraq.

Quite frankly, a bit of TNT on a parachute pales into insignificance really doesnt it? I used to get REALLY angry with the way some Americans lauded the IRA and even held large charity shows to raise money for these killers and whilst you talk about Al Qaeda or any other terrorist organisations then spare a thought for those mutilated with an electric drill by the IRA who a significant number of Americans have hero worshipped...... Terrorists are terrorists.

I can understand fellow aviators expressing their sympathies when watching the last minutes of a fellow human being but I guess this is a civil war and I simply ask, 'Who are the good guys?'

[cockney steve]

Irrespective of whom,what ,when, where, anyone joining the military should be aware:- You are paid to take orders from the heirarchy above you, no ifs ands or buts... kill or be killed, that's the objective of your employment -group.

It's non-negotiable, Military = obay orders to kill whoever your superiors dictate..........if you didn't think that one through before you signed up for the glamour/excitement/prestige/travel/cush number...or one of the myriad of other excuses I've hearrrr fo joining a killing-machine.....no sympathy, tough cheddar.

[course_profile]

That not entirely true steve. You are within your rights to disobey an illegal order, it's not as black and white as simply killing anyone your superiors dictate.

[stuckgear]

I love the way everybody thinks the FSA are great and aren't a bunch of islamist terrorists in the making (or made) :ugh:

Some of the FSA videos online are little better than the ****e AQ put out.


downsizer.. very valid.. from a post in JB here: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/499043-syria-we-supporting-right-side.html

U.S.: Al Qaeda, other extremists aiding Syrian rebels | WashingtonExaminer.com (http://washingtonexaminer.com/u.s.-al-qaeda-other-extremists-aiding-syrian-rebels/article/2504501)

Al Qaeda and other extremist groups have increased their presence in Syria in recent months to aid rebels trying to overthrow that country's government and solidify their standing in the region, senior analysts and U.S. officials said.
The organizations' ultimate goal is to create an Islamist state once Syrian President Bashar Assad is deposed, said Ed Husain, senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations


On 9/11, al Qaeda looks to Syria to revive its fortunes – CNN Security Clearance - CNN.com Blogs (http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/11/on-911-al-qaeda-looks-to-syria-to-revive-its-fortunes/)

Zawahiri’s ultimate aim of creating a theocratic Islamist order in the Arab world has for many years rested on two foundations: creating a safe-haven for fighters in the Arab world and winning the support of the Arab masses. The 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq provided al Qaeda with an unprecedented opportunity, but the barbaric sectarian-driven attacks of al Qaeda in Mesopotamia under the leadership of Musab al Zarqawi led to a rapid erosion of support on the Arab street.

Syria may offer al Qaeda a second chance - an opportunity to regain support across the Arab world by portraying itself as the defender of Sunnis against a merciless Alawite regime. But it has to be careful not to be perceived as trying to co-opt or impose itself on the uprising. That was its mistake in Iraq. The growing sectarian complexion of Syria’s violence may portend the fracturing of a state long held together by repression and an ubiquitous security service, providing al Qaeda with the opportunity to thrive amid a meltdown of authority – and taking it right up to Israel’s border.

"Establish a state that defends the Muslim countries, seeks to free the Golan, and continues Jihad until the flag of victory is raised above the usurped hills of al-Quds [mosque in Jerusalem]," Zawahiri urged jihadists fighting in Syria in February 2012.

[...]
Noman Benotman, a former Libyan Jihadist now with the Quilliam Foundation in London, has been closely tracking Jihadists in Syria. He told CNN that al Nusra probably has several hundred mostly Syrian fighters, has developed a presence across Syria, and has emerged as one of the most effective groups in waging urban warfare.


Council of Foreign Relations: Al-Qaeda's Specter in Syria - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/syria/al-qaedas-specter-syria/p28782)


The Syrian rebels would be immeasurably weaker today without al-Qaeda in their ranks.

[...]

In Syria, al-Qaeda's foot soldiers call themselves Jabhat al-Nusrah li-Ahli al-Sham (Front for the Protection of the Levantine People). The group's strength and acceptance by the FSA are demonstrated by their increasing activity on the ground (BBC) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19091400)--from seven attacks in March to sixty-six "operations" in June. In particular, the Jabhat has helped take the fight to Syria's two largest cities: the capital of Damascus, where 54 percent of its activities have been, and Aleppo. Indeed, al-Qaeda could become the most effective fighting force in Syria if defections from the FSA to the Jabhat persist and the ranks of foreign fighters (Guardian) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/al-qaida-rebels-battle-syria) continue to swell.

Al-Qaeda is not sacrificing its "martyrs" in Syria merely to overthrow Assad. Liberation of the Syrian people is a bonus, but the main aim is to create an Islamist state in all or part of the country. Failing that, they hope to at least establish a strategic base for the organization's remnants across the border in Iraq, and create a regional headquarters where mujahideen can enjoy a safe haven. If al-Qaeda continues to play an increasingly important role in the rebellion, then a post-Assad government will be indebted to the tribes and regions allied to the Jabhat. Failing to honor the Jabhat's future requests, assuming Assad falls, could see a continuation of conflict in Syria.
only a couple of hours ago..

Al Qaeda's Zawahri calls for kidnap of Westerners | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/27/us-qaeda-zawahri-message-idUSBRE89Q02O20121027)

(Reuters) - Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahri has called on Muslims to kidnap Westerners, join Syria's rebellion and to ensure Egypt implements sharia, SITE Monitoring reported on Saturday, citing a two-part film posted on Islamist websites.
The Egypt-born cleric, who became al Qaeda leader last year after the death of Osama bin Laden, spoke in a message that lasted more than two hours.
"We are seeking, by the help of Allah, to capture others and to incite Muslims to capture the citizens of the countries that are fighting Muslims in order to release our captives," he said, praising the kidnapping of Warren Weinstein, a 71-year-old American aid worker in Pakistan (http://www.reuters.com/places/pakistan) last year.


puts things into a different perspective doesn't it!

[barnstormer1968]

Irrespective of whom,what ,when, where, anyone joining the military should be aware:- You are paid to take orders from the heirarchy above you, no ifs ands or buts... kill or be killed, that's the objective of your employment -group.

It's non-negotiable, Military = obay orders to kill whoever your superiors dictate..........if you didn't think that one through before you signed up for the glamour/excitement/prestige/travel/cush number...or one of the myriad of other excuses I've hearrrr fo joining a killing-machine.....no sympathy, tough cheddar.

Can I just ask if I'm the only one who thinks the above text is total nonsense?

IMHO it is completely missing the point of the the thread.
We are not talking about western forces here.
The fighters on one side probably didn't choose to join up, and the opposition didn't join up as they are part of loose irregular movements.

Many of the fighters are not being paid, and to be honest the sight of your fellow villagers being brutally murdered by state troops is probably as good an incentive to fight against them as any other.

This is a serious conflict (which ones aren't :ugh:), and silly ideas about 'not thinking things through' won't really help anyone.

I for one could not look a mother in the eye whom had just seen her husband and sons gunned down in cold blood (perhaps in their own home) by out of control state troops, and then say 'they should have thought about this more fully':confused:


http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7492453&noquote=1)

[VinRouge]

steve obviously hasnt heard of the conciencious objector...

[DADDY-OH!]

Sympathy for the Syrian Helicopter Crew???? Do my eyes deceive me???

And would you have said "Ahh, poor sods!" Had you been a Tommy walking through the wreckage of a downed Stuka at Dunkirk in 1940 after it had strafed a column of helpless, defenceless refugees with a few fleeing Tommies?

You W⚓!

[VinRouge]

Not quite the same when there were questions about whether the civilians had also been involved in the slaughter.

[His dudeness]

And would you have said "Ahh, poor sods!"Had you been a Tommy walking through the wreckage of a downed Stuka at Dunkirk in 1940 after it had strafed a column of helpless, defenceless refugees with a few fleeing Tommies?

Or a polish slave labourer walking through the wreckage of a dambuster Lanc after it had bombed a dam and killed thousands of innocent people downstream including roughly a thousand non germans, mostly slave labourers?

[Courtney Mil]

I am intruiged, not only in this thread, but many others here, just how many people that are, supposedly, "professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware" are shocked by the results of military (albeit established autocracies or rebel 'freedom fighters') action.

Folks that put themselves in harm's way sometimes die for their (or someone else's) cause. That's what fighting does. When we're told to engage, I for one would not be happy with someone in my formation that suddenly decided to worry about whether or not the other guys stand a chance.

Sorry, you should have thought of that before you joined. It certainly does you no credit to start talking in public about it now.

C

[course_profile]

CM,

I don't think you're being all that fair in your own post.

It's a big shout which doesn't do you any credit to suggest that sympathy for fellow man (even the baddies!) some how equates to not doing your job when you are expected too.

I can't remember which one but I am certain one the WW1 RFC aces suffered a fairly serious nervous breakdown from the guilt of the killing.

[BOAC]

c_p - it is perhaps worth remembering that as I read his post, CM is talking about the 'armchair quarterbacks' on this thread, not those doing the killing in Syria..

[Courtney Mil]

BOAC, indeed. Thank you.

[course_profile]

I was replying on the assumption that Courtney was addressing serving members of the RAF posting here.

[DADDY-OH!]

His dudeness

There is a world of difference between victims through collateral damage of a bombing raid a few miles away from the target & targeting civilians through machine gun boresight & intentionally strafing them.

I would say that one is Accidental Death as the Dambuster crews weren't deliberately targeting the Polish prisoners, whereas the Stuka pilots were just murderers hellbent on following their orders to kill & maim every living thing on those roads- civilian, combatant, male, female, young, old, man woman & child.

But then again, I am British. And let's not forget who was responsible for those poor unfortunates being in those camps.

I can't believe you compared the Dambuster Crews to Stuka Crews. You have a remarkable take on factual history.

[Torque Tonight]

But many WW2 RAF pilots had a degree of respect for their German adversaries, and in many case after the war met and became good friends. The enemy were, after all, young men following orders and fighting for survival, just like themselves.

Anyone who serves in uniform should have no doubt about the effects of weapons, but revelling in such results would as unhealthy as shying away from them. If an SH pilot says that seeing SH aircrew of a different flag going down in flames and exploding makes uncomfortable viewing it is probably a glimmer of humanity and a 'there but for the grace of God' feeling rather than being a wimp, as Courtney seems to suggest.

It still remains to be seen whether having a hard-arsed secular dictator in charge is better or worse than having fundamentalist Al Quaeda run anarchy within spitting distance of Europe.

[500N]

"But many WW2 RAF pilots had a degree of respect for their German adversaries, and in many case after the war met and became good friends."

For the German Airforce as opposed to all of the military ?

Similar to the way the degree of respect for the Argie pilots ?

.

[VinRouge]

Daddy-oh, you do know who invented concentration camps now don't you?

[BOAC]

I was replying on the assumption that Courtney was addressing serving members of the RAF posting here. - I doubt he was being THAT specific, but yes, they would be included, and rightly.

Most 'normal' people would feel emotion if they had to kill or maim someone in the course of 'duty;', but excessive weepiness and hang-wringing over a 'poor' crew that were about to unleash extremely unpleasant, maiming and killing weapons on others but got blown up themselves - no.

[course_profile]

I just think it's off that one person thinks they have the authority to scold other people for their reaction to watching other men die. Having your own opinion is different from telling other people how to feel, or scolding them for feeling a certain way.

[DADDY-OH!]

Vin Rouge, yes, I think so. Was it the British in South Africa? Or was it 'Internment' Camps such as Croke Park in pre-1916 Dublin?

I think you'll find the German variant had gas chambers, crematoriums & laboratories for human experimentation which murdered on an industrial scale. How many Boers or Afrikaaners died in Britischer 'Concentration' Camps?

You will also find that the camps washed away post Dambusters raid were 'Labour' camps housing prisoners from Nazi occupied countries forced into working for the Nazi war machine.

Now was there anything else or were you just having a pop at the Brits?

[barnstormer1968]

Daddy

Your reply may be doing you no credit.

I don't know who Vin Rouge was implying started the camps, but I was about to type a similar reply!

It is very easy to wriggle out of the concentration camp debate by blaming a whole nation, but maybe Vin Rouge was singling out one man, and then the relevance becomes clear.

From memory the pre industrial revolution British camps had 78.000-80.000 deaths, so you would appreciate that if they were larger, and lasted as long as the Nazi camps, then the figure would be higher.

Being a Brit myelf, I am sure you will also know that the RAF were also very aware of whom and how many people were in the labour camps....And knew what would happen to them.

I'm sure you also know that the 'founder of concentration camps' was also well aware of many Nazi concentration camp activities, and is well documented in his attitude to the inhabitants (so nothing for you or I to be proud of there!)

Just as an anecdote: About once a month I drive along a road where a He 111 was shot down in WW2. The crew survived and were surrounded by the local home guard unit and some farm workers with pitch forks etc. The home guard held the crew until a regular army unit arrived, BUT the farmers wife of the farm they crashed on could see just how young and terrified the crew were (one was 17), and she refused to let the soldiers take them until she had made them a cup of tea!

Courtney Mil

Can I question something you said.
You mention not wanting anyone of your side worrying if the other bloke has a chance, but can we see that a bit differently please?
If you had been soaring about in your F3 and came across some hostile intruders I would have hoped you would have downed them as soon as possible, and in a way that gave them as little chance as possible.....A fair fight is for film and TV, not real life.
But, that does not mean you needed to be happy in killing other humans, or to wish their end was painful etc. I would have seen your job as stopping their weapons platform, which in reality could do more damage than a few pink fleshy bodies.

[BOAC]

I would have seen your job as stopping their weapons platform, which in reality could do more damage than a few pink fleshy bodies. - I'm sure CM agrees with that, and that is EXACTLY what happened to the helo. "weapons platform" stopped. I do not expect anyone aiming the SAM or whatever it was thought any more than "get that helo before it drops stuff on my lot". Anyone who stops to think "I wonder if I'm going to hurt someone" is in the wrong job.

I see no mention of being "happy in killing other humans, or to wish their end was painful etc." in his post?

[VinRouge]

I have no issue with the stomach of the business, I have issue with whether those supporting the FSA understand some of the atrocities their members have commits in this and other theatres.

The helicopter crew had it coming if they were dropping indiscriminately, and from the video, it looks as if that was what was on board. But let's not get confused about which side will provide the most stable. Least backward future for that hole.

[course_profile]

BOAC,

Hopefully to clear this up. It was just that CMs post came across as if he was berating people for either having sympathy for the downed crew or having a 'there but for the grace of god' type moment.

He also seemed to be saying that somehow anyone who was anything other that steely-eyed about the whole thing might not be effective in combat. If this was what he meant, then it was totally unfair and frankly illogical. If It wasn't then maybe it's just a bit of a misunderstanding.

[Courtney Mil]

Again, BOAC, you are spot-on. I don't expect soldiers, sailors and airmen to enjoy killing people, but I also don't hold with the 'excessive hand-wringing' as you so neatly put it.

Probably easier for me than many as I was always air defence and could always console myself with the thought that I was stopping the bad guys from hurting people, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a conscience.

Poor guys, never stood a chance? Fine by me. As BrainStormer says, I don't need a fight to be fair.

Finally, no I don't wish a painful end on anyone. But I am still a bit surprised by the outpouring of sympathy for the bad guys that die in a fight/war/action.

[BOAC]

c_p - yes, time to 'clear this up'. The thread title was the kick-starter for this and AA in post #3 brought us back to reality. If it had been tilted 'Syrian AF helo down' we might not be here now.

WRT your last para - IF that was what he was saying, then he was absolutely right. Kitchens and heat? If you just want to stack blankets, don't join the military - go and work in a bedding store.

[lj101]

excessive hand-wringing

Which post(s) were they?

[course_profile]

BOAC,

That really isn't fair at all. There are all kinds of people in the military, some are more likely to introspect and reflect on the killing and misery caused to both sides in a war and some aren't. It's simply untrue and unfair to suggest because someone can have empathy with the enemy that they would not be effective at doing their job when it was required of them.

So, if that was what CM was saying then he was IMHO dead wrong.

[BOAC]

Obviously we will never agree. I'm sure that had CM or I scythed through an enemy cockpit or 3 with our missile warhead, killing or worse mutilating the crew, we would have both suffered trauma and troubling times later. It may be that it would have 'finished' either or both of us - I don't know as it never happened to me, but I would have hoped I would have been back in my jet to do it again without delay since that is why I took the Queen's Commission . The time to quit is when you join - as one of the guys on my South Cerney course did when he realised he could not face 'bombing babies' and had made the wrong career choice. I respect him for that and think no less of him.

It is how far we take your 'empathy' - 'Take the shot' as M in the current film says - there is no time to think.

[course_profile]

BOAC, I suspect you're right we won't agree totally but there is some common ground. I wouldn't want anyone to hesitate before taking what ever shot it was incumbent on them to make either, I'd count that as them not being able to do that job they were there to do.

All I'm saying is that away from the heat of that particular moment people have all sorts of different ways of reacting to what they've done or witnessed others doing and no one should be judged on that.

You have an opinion and I respect that.

[cockney steve]

[QUOTE][You are within your rights to disobey an illegal order, /QUOTE]

C.P. Valid point, but how many "cannon-fodder" are fully qualified lawyers, and who's going to argue with an officer's gun pointed to your head?...or your family's?.....If you aren't IN the Military , then you're not putting yourself/family in the way of sanctions for not obeying orders(illegal or otherwise)

My biggest objection to Military service, is the thought of having to obey the orders of incompetent or immoral a-holes. When they all lead fronm the front, I may think differently.....but read about "D" -Day and how a diversionary force were sent to certain death.....sure, justify it as "for the greater good".....but had the knobbers who sanctioned that particular "jolly", had to lead it, they may have come up with a different strategy!..... so, yes, V.R. I probably would have been a Concientious Objector.

[His dudeness]

DADDY-OH, I don´t think I have a remarkable take on history.

I wanted you to see the parallels between the actions and especially the result.

I venture a guess here, not being killed yet myself, I think it does not make a difference who killed you. The result is the same.
The dambusters did what they have being told to do and I´m pretty sure not following orders was a court martial offence in WWII also in the UK...as it was in Hitlers Germany.

I also know for a fact that allied soldiers shot at civilians in WWII, namely, e.g. at my mother who was a child then. I will never know wether this was done intenionally or not, the result if he`d hadn`t missed would have been the same. This happened when she was hearding goats on a meadow in the black forrest region. No military installation close.

Bomber Harris had his crews mostly aim at civilians, didn´t he? 'Breaking the morale', as it was put so gentlemanly. But of course, being british the bomber command had every right to do so. Because the Germans did it first.

But don`t tell me this was of any different result for children, females, elderly and others that were killed in the countless air raids of the RAF.

If the German Stuka crews were murderers, then RAF crew bombing/strafing not purely military installations were too.

There is a world of difference between victims through collateral damage of a bombing raid a few miles away from the target & targeting civilians through machine gun boresight & intentionally strafing them.

No.

[course_profile]

Cockney Steve

If you aren't in the military then please don't come here and make comments as disrespectful as the one you have just made.

If that is your perception of the UK Military, then you are wildly wrong.

[Neptunus Rex]

As BOAC, Courtney Mil and many others could tell you, the responsibility for obeying orders is strictly confined to Legal Orders, the definition of which is clearly laid out for British Forces in Queen's Regulations.

[Lonewolf_50]

His dudeness
No.
Actually, it's as much "yes" as it is "no."
At the moral level, there is a difference. At the purely physical level, no. We humans are far more than purely physical, or purely moral. We are a mix of both. That said, I am glad they didn't hit your mom. :ok:

Your reductionist take on this discussion is an incomplete approach to a very human activity: intramural homicide, aka war. You will note that humans, in their infinite wisdom (or is it folly?) have crafted a thing called war crimes at the international level, which more or less judge whether or not a given kill was a valid kill.
That's a moral matter, and renders your "dead is dead" point true but utterly incomplete, and thus at least partly wrong.

A few other points:
If an SH pilot says that seeing SH aircrew of a different flag going down in flames and exploding makes uncomfortable viewing it is probably a glimmer of humanity and a 'there but for the grace of God' feeling rather than being a wimp ...
Spot on! That is how I felt the first time I saw the film clip. I spent some years as a Naval Helicopter pilot. I knew damned well that a hand held SAM, well directed ZSU-23 fire, or a variety of other surface to air fires, would put an end to me in a fashion similar to what happend to those fellows.
"It still remains to be seen whether having a hard-arsed secular dictator in charge is better or worse than having fundamentalist Al Quaeda run anarchy within spitting distance of Europe.
Good point, and quite frankly, the most important point regarding the "lesser of two evils" matter.

On a less dire note, in 2004 I faced an election where I could choose:

George W Bush (a man with whom I was bitterly disappointed, and whose inner circle quite frankly pissed me off, that Swift Boat defamation tactic being the cherry on top of the sundae)

John Kerry, whose record showed that he was utterly devoid of leadership talent at the level required, albeit we had in common Naval Service

I held my nose as I voted.

We don't always get a choice between the bad and the good.

More often, we get to choose whether or not our feces falafel comes with cheese and pickles, or with tomatoes, onions and lettuce. I daresay that is what the average folk of Syria confront at the moment. I am not sure there is a lot of choice beyond "who keeps fighting longer" in this nasty civil war.

cockney steve: your post comes off as
a tale ... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Further comments duly :mad:

[cockney steve]

My apologies to the last 3 posters if I've upset you with MY opinion.

It's just that, an OPINION. I'm on the outside, looking in. I find the whole concept of killing my fellow man in cold blood, because my "superior" says so, to be immoral.....
Although i quoted the sacrificial force of "D" day, I wasn't necessarily saying the corruption/incompetence applied to only "Queen's Regulations" forces....it was basically a reply to the poster who tried to justify just why this Heli crew may have been killing their kith and kin.
in the ground position, I, too would have defended myself
(theres the dichotomy.)
Presumably, them lot are ignoring Q.R ?


Oh, ..and had the "movers and shakers" in the Falklands war been competent enough to log the fact that we , AND the enemy both had Exocets , Simon Weston might have kept his original features.

Sorry, I can't accept gaffes on this scale from a "superior" to whome I've entrusted my continued existence.

To those who have served , come out the other end,and still have a life to enjoy, I salute you...I.m too much of a coward to have ever contemplated Military service.

[Torque Tonight]

I don't think the Syrian Air Force or rebel groups ever signed up to Queen's Regulations.

[phil9560]

Re.Simon Weston-Sir Galahad wasn't hit by an Exocet.

[SASless]

Lone....did you just say you voted for Kerry?

[NutLoose]

Well i have read all the posts and thought i would reply as to why i posted it under the heading i used..
War is war and people die, but even if I was on the ground shooting at it and took it down, I would still feel compassion towards the crew as they spun down, because at the end of the day I wouldn't wish a death on anyone like that, rather a quick bang bang your dead, hence my original post and title to the thread.. For all we know it could have just been carrying people from A to B, we just don't know who was in it and the circumstances.
I could have shown a link to the US Marine CH-46 that was hit by a SAM in Iraq that turns away on fire and descending as they try to flee the scene, that we know was carry some guys going home on leave, they died, compassion works both ways.

[si.]

I wouldn't want anyone to hesitate before taking what ever shot it was
incumbent on them to make either


I'm in full agreement that mil aircrew are there to perform a role, regardless of their personal views. The RAF / USAF etc are not just large flying clubs.

Yet sometimes just a moments hesitation is entirely the right course of action. For example in Courtney's Journal, he reports scrambling from Wideawake airfield to intercept an incoming aircraft, which was suspected of being an Argentine transport aeroplane. Acting on his 'hunch' that something wasn't quite as it appeared, he hesitated long enough to confirm it was actually an in coming RN helicopter. Yet engaging immediately would have been an acceptable course of action, given the information first available.

How many other FJ pilots have 'hesitated' long enough for the situation to change completely, and slept much better as a result of it?

[barnstormer1968]

BOAC

Sorry if my post was not clear to you. I was agreeing with CM, but took issue with the idea of worrying (or thinking about) whether your opponent has a fair chance. I would always want my gang to be thinking carefully about that in order that the other guy NEVER got a fair chance!
I come from a green background, and would always choose to sneak up on an enemy in their beds rather than ones who were wide awake and alert.

[TEEEJ]

Cockney Steve,

The Bluff Cove air strikes had nothing to do with Exocet. RFA Sir Galahad and RFA Sir Tristram were bombed by A-4 Skyhawks.

Bluff Cove Air Attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff_Cove_Air_Attacks)

Both sides were well aware that Exocet was in the respective inventories before the conflict.

Argentine Navy: MM38 (surface-launched) and AM39 (air-launched)
Royal Navy: MM38 (surface-launched)

[El Grifo]

Re.Simon Weston-Sir Galahad wasn't hit by an Exocet.

Boom Boom !

El G.

[ORAC]

Syrian Air Force Commander Is Reported Killed (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/world/middleeast/syrian-air-force-commander-is-reported-killed.html?_r=0)

Syria’s state television said Tuesday that insurgents had assassinated an air force commander in Damascus, as news accounts from antigovernment activists reported an intensified aerial bombing campaign against rebel targets, including the first warplane attack inside the Syrian capital since the conflict began 20 months ago..............

An announcement carried on state television said the air force commander, Gen. Abdullah Mahmud al-Khalidi, was killed in the Damascus district of Rukn al-Din on Monday by armed terrorist groups, the government’s categorical term for its adversaries.

The announcement did not specify how the commander had been killed, but it described him as one of the country’s top aviation experts. Agence France-Presse, in a report from Damascus, quoted an unidentified security source as saying the commander had been shot to death while leaving a friend’s home.

The news agency also said that the Free Syrian Army, the main group of armed insurgents in Syria, had claimed responsibility for the assassination. But other unconfirmed reports from Syria raised the possibility the general had been killed by government agents to prevent him from defecting. Al Jazeera quoted unidentified activists as saying “the regime got rid of him before he does that.” ............

[Lonewolf_50]

SAS: no, I didn't vote for him, but I nearly did.

[BOAC]

the commander had been shot to death while leaving a friend’s homeunconfirmed reports from Syria raised the possibility the general had been killed by government agents to prevent him from defecting.Well, I've waited 24 hours and no-one has popped up and said:

"Poor guy, never stood a chance"

Why not? Anyone able to explain the difference?

[SASless]

Lone....you scared me there for a bit.

I would gladly volunteer to be the Officer in a Firing Party for Kerry and Fonda....remembering said Officer gets to put the Pistol shot into the head after the Firing Squad does their thing.

What Kerry did in Paris and afterwards in support of the North Vietnamese while he was a Naval Officer are something I can never forgive. I see it as being a clear act of Treason.

There were many ways to protest the War and still hold faith with those being held POW by the North Vietnamese....he went far beyond the line in his conduct.

[LT Selfridge]

If there is anyone else out there who is disturbed by the 'kill them all and let god (sic) sort them out' brigade then let me put in my two cents. Don't turn away from the military you respect and the legacy of the people who have served before you in good faith. The forces need a mix of the heartless gunslingers and the contemplative types. Hang in there and the balance will, ultimately, be restored. If you stay your hand or turn away... we are doomed.