Crossing the Irish sea in a single

[ianwild]

The Flight to the Isle of Man thread (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/497586-flight-isle-man.html#post7457866) has played on my mind quite a bit.

One trip I hope to do once my PPL flying is more established and probably not until I've got confidence and an IMC, is Newtownards near Belfast, which is close to one of our offices and a friends house.

I can see how to make it a reasonably short sea crossing, but it's clear there is a feeling amongst more experienced pilots, including my instructor, that knowing what they know now they just wouldn't perform any sea crossing where there is even a chance of not being able to make land in the event of engine failure.

I understand risk and while of course the engine never knows where it is, mitigating risk is the name of the game. So I was wondering not so much about whether you'd do it personally, but more how PPruners would comment on a pilot who went down after having made the decision to do it.

Would the pilot be irresponsible for having made the decision in the first place? Would it make a difference if there were none PPL passengers on board?

Ian

[Johnm]

I go regularly to the channel island in a light single. I carry a raft, make everyone on board wear life jackets and carry a plb. If the donkey stops I'll be in the briny and I know that others have survived the experience.

[ianwild]

Would I be right in thinking the Irish sea is a lot more brutal than the Channel?

Assuming sea condition / proximity to other craft is a consideration in terms of survival chances, would the channel islands be a safer bet than the Irish sea?

I found this post (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/399140-ga-aircraft-ditching-irish-sea-16th-dec-3.html#post5388178)about someone surviving a ditching, but it strikes me that's probably an exception to what would seem like a normally fatal situation?

Eurghh! So many more questions now I have a PPL than when I was training...

Ian

[Nearly There]

I wouldn't fancy a trans atlantic crossing! but I do Ireland now again (mrs from Cork) as above life jackets, raft, elb, pick a shorter crossing and look out for shipping/rigs and ditch ahead and to the left/right of a ship or near a rig. As for my thoughts if it ended in a ditching due to an eng failing I would think unlucky & hope they're ok.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Would I be right in thinking the Irish sea is a lot more brutal than the Channel?
"Immersion suits if sea temperature is 15C or less" is the rule for S&R out of Culdrose, we were told. Then you've got to extract yourself and dinghy and passengers from an upside-down sinking aircraft, all keep together, get the dinghy inflated, climb into it ... not saying it can't be done, because from time to time it is done successfully, but you're betting your life on it.

[2high2fastagain]

Raft and jackets are essential in my opinion, but the real clincher for me is how I feel about my engine. It's been running flawlessly with very consistent cht/egts, oil temps and pressures for quite some while, so I have gradually felt more comfortable about it and tried longer sea crossings. I would recommend that you try newtownards via the short crossing from Stranraer/mull of Galloway and then build it up from there. Oh and make sure you are talking to someone. Fisbang and his mates at Scottish info will be quick to get someone out to you if they know you are going down.

[thing]

"Immersion suits if sea temperature is 15C or less"

I'm always reminded when I read stuff like that of when I was a nipper and we used to go swimming in the sea off Whitby for hours on end with nothing more than a pair of trunks on. Now apparently it's fatal.

[Mark 1]

Flying over water in a single is only a few percentage points more risky than an equivalent trip over land. Mountains, forests or night-flying are more dangerous in the event of a forced landing than a ditching on water.

It's an individual decision but, properly prepared and equipped, you can expand the utility of your aircraft.

This article (http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm) gives a good perspective of the risks involved.

[jecuk]

I think if engine failure in singles was a likely as your instructors suggest, very few people would be flying. So long as you don't run out of fuel, and take life jackets, MY view is that a well maintained single over water is fine. But this is really one of those issues where you just have to form your own view.

That said I remember my first open water crossing with my family aboard and it was nerve wracking. Altitude is your friend of course.

[riverrock83]

That article is a good presentation of the facts.

If you are trying to be extremely risk averse then go Mull of Kintyre across to Fair Head. Its something like 6 minutes flying time with no airspace above you so you can always be within gliding distance of land (of most planes).

Survival time in the Irish sea without a life raft is estimated at 1 1/2hrs. Life rafts would prolong that but that assumes you are able to operate it and get into it - easier said than done (I've done the training for operating passenger ships).

If word gets out that you are in trouble (you get through on the radio), your PLB works and you ditch successfully (and the stats are actually quite good with ditching) then you should find a helicopter above you well within that time. If one of those bits fail, things become more difficult unless you have a raft you can get in to.

Would the pilot be irresponsible for having made the decision in the first
place?
I would say only if they were un-prepared (no life jackets) or were flying in conditions that weren't suitable.
However - this is an internet forum so someone would have a bitch...

[Pace]

When you consider how many pieces make up a piston engine then you realize that a failure is a real option.
As someone who flies and scuba dives I am fairly aware of the sea at close quarters as well as a pilot who sees it from 3000 feet up!

3000 feet up those little white smidges and flat looking surface can be 30 foot walls of waves with more energy than you can dream to imagine at sea level!

Pilots do fly long distance USA UK in single engine aircraft over vast expanses of the North sea and in areas where you would last 10 minutes.
Is it risky? Of course it is! Only a fool would kid themselves otherwise.
So it really comes down to a personal choice of the level of risk you are prepared to take.

Do I trust mechanical piston engines? after a few failures in twins and a forced landing in a single? No.

Would I trust a turbine more? Yes!

All I know is crossing sea I am always that bit more relaxed when the coast comes into view and land is below the wings. It is funny how your senses become more highlighted to every beat of the engine over the sea.

Take my word for it landing into a brick wall of a 30 foot wave will be no fun and I have seen and heard singles merrily flying over such seas while flying twins and jets myself as well as seeing them do this with a couple of hours to dusk.

Pace

[BackPacker]

So it really comes down to a personal choice of the level of risk you are prepared to take.

Agree with Pace here. It's the level of risk you are willing to take, and the mitigation measures you take to prevent bad things from happening or from escalating. If you're not prepared to take any risk, you should not be flying privately, in a single engine aircraft in the first place.

Read the Equipped to Survive link that Mark sent you. Not just that link, but the entire site. It's a goldmine of information. Then, ideally, go on a maritime survival course to actually learn how to operate all the equipment, and to feel what it's like bobbing about in a hostile sea, having to operate survival equipment with numb hands and such. Then read some of the other threads on here about crossing the channel and such. And then decide for yourself what sort of gear you're going to bring, assuming you're still willing to take the risk in the first place.

Me personally, I have a drysuit and life jacket but no life raft for crossing the North Sea. Plus some other survival kit: rescuestreamer, signal mirror and a bag of tricks I picked up at the survival course.

I see a lot of people crossing vast expanses of water with just a life raft and some life jackets. After having done that survival course, I know that combination gives a very false sense of security. After the ditching itself is over, hypothermia is your biggest enemy. A dry suit does a lot more to prevent hypothermia than a life raft. And that's assuming you can get the life raft deployed properly, turned right side up, and are able to get into it in the first place. Which are major issues all by themselves, and for which you need proper training.

Furthermore, a 10+ kg life raft is a liability in itself in the event of a ditching. It needs to be secured properly otherwise the impact may launch it forward and hit you in the head or something, but it also should not be secured too well as you may only have a few seconds to retrieve it before the aircraft sinks.

At the end of the day, the only things that are guaranteed to make it out of the aircraft together with you, are the things you carry on your body.

[Fionn101]

just my 2 cents,

I have flown Dublin - Wales a few times (Caernaforn ??) and I also Surf a lot up in the cold Atlantic off the coast of Donegal (water temp around 11 degrees).

With a 5mm wetsuit with gloves,hood and boots I am okay in the water for around 1.5 hours.

If flying over water again I ideally would like a drysuit and life vest and a streamer at the very least, any extra items a bonus.

Drysuit and Altitude are your friend in this crossing.

Take care,
Fionn

[Flyingmac]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/399140-ga-aircraft-ditching-irish-sea-16th-dec.html#post5383192

It was a twin.

[BackPacker]

I remember that thread. Go to page 3 to read a first-hand account.

Things that struck me:
- Was wearing an immersion suit.
- Had a life raft but was not able to get into it.:sad:
- Decided not to stretch the glide, but to ditch in a place where rescue was more likely.
- ATC on the ball, oil rig support vessel + helo nearby, leading to a very short recovery time.

[John R81]

Have crossed the channel and the Irish sea in a single engined helicopter.

Life jackets, floatation gear on the heli, PLB. Always talking to someone on the RT.

I would expect to be able to ditch the heli, inflating floats before contact with the water, but given the position of the engine & gearbox I would expect the machine to turn over in anything but the calmest of water.

Usually I try to navigate shortest crossing, and where possible I head from "ship to ship". There is some chance that I could put the machine onto a tanker / container ship if needed (there's always a chance!) but if not then ditching nearby (I hope) increases the chance of a quick pick-up. There is no possibility of gliding any serious distance in a heli once the donky dies.

Without a PLB or a raft, sea-dye or similar I think the chances of being seen by a search aircraft might be low indeed! Staying with a floating heli - even one that has overturned - should increase the chance of being seen.

[PompeyPaul]

Some good points here, about it's your choice and your risk profile.

I crossed both the Channel and the Irish sea. Despite all the horror stories out there these are my own thoughts and findings

1. Take life jackets & raft with you

Although realistically I am sceptical if I actually could inflate the raft if standing on a wing after surviving a ditching attempt. It also strikes me as fairly heavy, there is a high chance it slips into the sea and would be gone. I'd rather cross with than without but it seems to nowhere near ensure survivability.

2. The Irish sea is far more barren than the Channel.

I, maybe naively, am not to worried about crossing the channel. Yes the caveats of there are more dead pilots in the Channel from IMC than WW2 etc but there is lots and lots of shipping. You would most likely come down near a boat. Yeah, I've not tried it but I find that reassuring. The Irish sea is far, far more barren. To my mind it is a far more dicey proposition. That said I still did it, and would possibly do it again.

3. Your own level of risk

When I crossed I was late 30s, unmarried and relatively fit. Today I am almost 40 and with my first born in January. I would now think twice, although probably still give it a whirl. It's not something I would make a habit of, and if I were going to do it multiple times, I'd certainly ensure my life insurance was paid and my will was up to date. It wouldn't stop me, but you know, you are opening yourself up to risk.

There is no simple answer, if you want to live in a bubble of cotton wool, don't fly. On the other hand there is real potential for it to go wrong, are you accepting of that? You can't let fear live your life, if mankind did we would never have gone to the moon. When I am in a care home, my life done, I know I'll look back and remember that mission to Newtonards as something that was a real achievement and something I truly enjoyed.

I guess you have to ask yourself "do you feel lucky punk? well do yah?"

[riverrock83]

2. The Irish sea is far more barren than the Channel.

Agreed. I used to work for P&O Irish Sea onboard on their Larne crossing and in the event of an evacuation we were to expect quite a wait for rescue.

However, for this reason, I would recommend crossing from around Stranrar (Scotland) towards Islandmagee (Larne). You then have 2 Stenaline vessels, 2 P&O vessels and a seasonal fast ferry under you, (along with the odd old freight ship and fishing vessels). Larne is also a good VRP with its 3 towered power station. The crossing isn't as short as slightly further North, but it reduces the track distance some what and so isn't a bad compromise. You can get a service from Aldergrove (or is that "Belfast") approach if you have difficulty contacting Scottish.

[Fuji Abound]

The risk of an engine failure is incredibly small. Ensuring the aircraft is properly maintained will reduce that risk even further. The starting point is that it is barely a risk worth factoring into the equation.

In reality of course it is a fear we all suffer from, as irrational as that maybe. You either set aside the fear and go, or you don't.

You may reconcile the risk by taking reasonable precautions. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that most ditchings are successful. The advantage with the sea is the terrain is predictable, at least to the extent that its only the wave height and frequency that changes. Fortunately I have never landed on the water (other than in a sea plane, which I have done :)) so I have no basis for commenting on the effect of swell height and frequency. I sail a lot and I guess if you want to mitigate the risk yet further you could take into account the sea state. The Met Office provides real time buoy data which gives a good indication of the swell and its frequency.

The Irish sea is reasonably desolate so in the event of a ditching I suspect your greatest risk is exposure and ensuring you have secured a ride back. As much height as possible for the crossing will give you the best chance of aiming for a ship or boat and the best chance of maintaining radio contact. Not that it is your route I have lost radio contact below a few thousand feet going to Waterford on more than a few occasions, albeit in a twin so the concern was less. An EPIRB would make sense in terms of ensuring your chances of being found are certain, albeit its complete nonsense for the EPIRB to be fitted to the aircraft which will sink and you will have drifted some distance before recovery. An AIS beacon is a much cheaper alternative although these dont have a selective distress frequency.

Your greatest priority is to protect yourself from exposure. Your priorities include life jackets, rafts and immersion suits. Personally I am happy with just a raft, but others take a different view. Rafts can be difficult to get into and any exposure to the water for any length of time can be very dangerous.

That is about it, except to say that its for you alone to make your own assessment, but you have a far greater chance of meeting your maker in all sorts of other ways that in consequence of an engine failure over the Irish sea - there are a great many other things you should give up first if you were confronting the problem rationally.

[dublinpilot]

Some of us have to cross it if we want to fly any distance :eek:

[Papa Whisky Alpha]

Northern Ireland to Scotland and Cumbria to the Isle of Man have both been done by gliders in free flight !

[Pace]

PWA

Oh well you guys in gliders do not have to worry about engine failures as you cannot have them :ok:

Pace

[Rod1]

Many years ago I was involved in a week of research into sea survival jointly funded by Plymouth poly and the Coastguard. One of the experiments was to take 30 ish undergrads, brief them on getting into a raft, inflate a raft 2 miles off shore and let them get into teams and try to get in. The only people who managed it were people with previous experience in sailing etc. There was a 100% failure from the untrained and inexperienced. Having watched this I find it very unlikely that your average 50 + overweight PPL with no training would get into a raft unless he as very lucky. I would not expect many to even get it out of an upturned aircraft with a sea running. If you are going to fly the Irish sea either get an immersion suit or go on a ditching course.

Rod1

[Pace]

Having had a number of partial engine and full engine failures in twins and a single I do not have the confidence in piston engines to the extent of some here.

The chances are very small but there is still a chance!

Has it stopped me? No but with anything with an element of risk you have to safeguard yourself as best as possible and accept the risk.

I nevertheless Breath easier when over land again and the engine tone goes back to normal ;)

Pace

[dont overfil]

I have done quite a bit of single engine overwater flying (mostly warm water) so I have thought a bit about it. Most of the recent trips have been in a C172 3 up.

We decided not to bother with a liferaft. None of us are spring chickens so the possibility of getting in to it was going to be slim.

We of course had lifejackets and an ELT. We should probably have taken dye as well.

The most important thing was a serious discussion about egress. In a C172 the seat has to be forward for the rear seat passenger to leave and rearward for the front seaters. Therefore the rear seaters must leave first as they can't reach the seat adjustor. Furthermore, if the aircraft remains upright, in fact even if it doesn't, it will float substantially nose down. How will that affect moving the seat rearwards? Annother difficulty is on old C172s the seatbacks would fold nearly flat. Not so on the newer ones.

Now the single door on the Pipers doesn't seem so much of a problem.

D.O.

[BackPacker]

The most important thing was a serious discussion about egress.
Excellent point and well executed.

Part of my maritime survival training was helicopter egress practice. Now helicopters have a strong tendency to flip upside down in a ditching. Which means you absolutely, positively will lose your bearings and have no clue whatsoever what is up, down, left or right, and where the emergency exit is. Furthermore, the cabin will be filled with bubbles, debris, oil and whatnot, so don't expect to see anything.

The trick is to ignore all this. Your seat will be bolted to the floor, and you will be strapped in your seat, so the emergency exit is still where it was before, in reference to your body and seat.

What you need to do is first clear the path to the emergency exit (which is normally your window, in an off-shore helicopter, so you open or eject the window), THEN you grab hold of the emergency exit (window sill or something) with one hand, THEN you unfasten your seat belt with the other. You then pull yourself towards the emergency exit and egress the aircraft.

I guess the same thing would apply to a C172. I expect that airframe to fill with water rapidly (especially once the doors are opened) so you need to be prepared for an underwater egress. That means that you will effectively be floating, more or less horizontally, in the cabin, once you released your seatbelt. And that means that the position of the front seats would not matter one bit, as you will simply float over the tops of the seats through the exit.

[Pace]

BackPacker

Too true! As a keen scuba diver I sometimes wonder if those pilots who are not used to the the sea close too ie either sailors or divers or watersport fanatics really appreciate what a real ditching would be like.

One minute your snug in your aircraft at 3000 feet looking down at what looks like a fairly flat surface covered with white splodges next your facing 15 to 30 foot walls of pure energy and foam.
Not exaggerated as I have seen and heard many singles crossing the irish sea with those conditions below.

Ignorance is bliss but far removed from the initial shock of freezing salt water hitting your body to the point you cannot get your breath never mind think clearly!

There has to be preparation! Only cross large expanses with fairly calm seas! Try to cross high 8-10 K gives you more time to not only glide near some ship but to talk with ATC.

Do not take off an hour before darkness as no one will find you etc.

False security snug as a bug in a rug at 3000 feet is very different from reality when you hit that sea.

Pace

[riverrock83]

There was a 100% failure from the untrained and inexperienced.

I'm surprised it was that high but I guess it depends on the raft and how fit they are.
The training I did (for shipping) was with 15 or so person rafts and people all in their 20s (the demographic for those working as customer services crew on a ship!). We all got in unaided (which was a course requirement) although it took some people a number of attempts.
Those rafts included a ladder which sat below the water line (although only some people used it) but I would expect the large one to be harder to get into due to higher sides.

Agree though that the demographic for GA pilots to be some what different!

[BackPacker]

Just FYI, it seems someone on "the other forum" is trying to organize a maritime survival course for GA.

FLYER Forums • View topic - AAIB October Bulletins published (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79631&p=1107958#p1107958)

[Rod1]

riverrock83 – was your course in open water?

The students were 19 – 20 year olds in light clothing

Rod1

[riverrock83]

Course was in an unheated swimming pool with a wave machine turned on, designed to simulate the North Sea.
Offshore Survival Centre | Blackpool and The Fylde College (http://www.blackpool.ac.uk/nautical/fosc)
http://www.blackpool.ac.uk/files/nautical/images/53large.jpg
Was quite a while ago, but I think we were wearing t-shirts, swim shorts and life jackets.

It was obviously not aviation focused and the rafts are bigger (as you can see in the pic) so your test was probably more representative, but I'm still surprised at 0% success of your test subjects!

the final test had us doing it in the dark with simulated rain, panicking "passengers" and involved an 8 meter (I'm guessing) jump off the side of a "ship" into the water...

great fun!

[Romeo Tango]

It's a very very good risk, assuming you and your engineer are remotely competent. I've flown the Atlantic five times in my Robin and I'm not dead (or wet) yet.
Bill

[Fuji Abound]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=aberporth+buoy+wave+height+three+months&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Walls of water is a slight exaggeration. While it can be true waves are often not as high as you might think crossing around north wales. I have sailed the Atlantic a few times and again contrary to expectation walls of water are very rare - undoubtedly there can be large swells with an equally large period between the swell but white top walls they are not. I don't suppose any are good for your health with regards a ditching but as I indicated earlier the outcome of ditching if you read the reports appear surprisingly good.

I would agree with the last poster - the problems of getting into a life raft are in my opinion also over done. I am not saying it is necessarily easy and the design of the raft is an important component. However a life raft is your best hope given that in reality I see almost no one climbing into immersion suites not least because of the cost, the lack of comfort and the need to supply each passenger with a suite. In fact a dinghy dry suit is a far better and more practical alternative but in both instances the clothing underneath are an equally important component in staying warm.

[davidjohnstone]

Some years ago I was at Oshkosh & was offered a ride in a small float plane. The take off began & I realised that something had gone wrong, in fact one float had delaminated & we went in at some speed. The aircraft nosed in & I found myself upside down & under water. I had never been on any survival course but was a regular swimmer. So extracting myself wasn't so difficult, once under water you are weightless & can swim out. Just follow the bubbles.
It has made me more cautious when flying over water but it hasn't stopped me. Just take adequate precautions & remember the engine doesn't know it's flying over water.

[140KIAS]

We should probably have taken dye as well.



No need, the sharks would have directed the rescue services to your location.:ouch:

[noblue]

I've done the Belfast -Liverpool route many times in a single, and I agree with the advice in the bove posts, especially re immersion suits & plb. one thing i would emphasise is to go high. There is a class D airway from iom to belfast wich you can access without an IR. I knew that I could always glide to land in the SR20 from FL100, which a typical PA28 can easily reach. I accept though that as a newly minted PPL the cloud cover would be an issue for most of the year. IOM to Wallasey is of course a different prospect due to the Class A. Once you are IMC capable crossing the Irish sea on top of an overcast is great fun with the Isle of Man no more than a ripple in the smooth white deck.

[dont overfil]

No need, the sharks would have directed the rescue services to your location.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gif

Question. "Will they eat me whole?"

Answer. "No. They spit that bit out."

I'll get my coat!:p

D.O.

[sailor]

Always climb to a flight level which will allow you to glide to land in the event of a donk quitting - foolproof !!

[Fuji Abound]

Must try that over the Atlantic - just passing Isis. ;)

[BackPacker]

Always climb to a flight level which will allow you to glide to land in the event of a donk quitting - foolproof !!

Not even possible in the Channel crossing, due to airspace restrictions.

[dublinpilot]

Always climb to a flight level which will allow you to glide to land in the event of a donk quitting - foolproof !!
And rarely possible VFR on the Irish Sea either due to weather or ATC clearances, and except for the area close to Scotland, it would require O2.

In deed many light singles can't climb high enough for the crossing in most places, to remain within gliding distance.

[JW411]

So you never worried about hitting an iceberg at night on the Titanic route?

[JW411]

Well, I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have been called in the middle of the night in the Atlantic (on 121.5) by some chap who was unable to raise Gander or Shanwick on his home-made HF set and who was down so low that he was almost scratching the surface to avoid ice and asking me to relay for him.

What were they doing? Usually on an 21 hour direct flight plan from Gander (if they had the proper equipment) or from St Pierre et Miquelon (if they didn't).

Of course, most of them got away with it.

I sat up there at F350 passing on the messages and boggling at what motivates anyone to tackle the Pond direct in a PA-28.

Let me just say that I have over 2,000 hours in gliders which do not suffer engine failures.

I also have over 16,000 hours in powered aeroplanes (most of them with four engines).

Until recently, I owned a very nice and well-equipped PA-28. I had all the gear in it, but when I went overwater I was never totally happy.

Perhaps it was that during my 18 years in the RAF I learned during several Sea Survival courses (in those days they were held at Mountbatten) that even the English Channel is not much fun in February.

The statistics are actually pretty good. Provided that your aircraft is well maintained and nothing goes wrong, you could do Liverpool to Dublin almost ad infinitum.

But that is not the way that statistics work out.

If you have reasonable common sense you must ask yourself if you are prepared to be the statistic.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I flew with my wife and two friends to France many years ago in a C172. After the experience my wife made me promise not to fly over water again in a single, as our daughter had just been born.

Years later a pilot (who later featured in the TV series '999') ditched a turbine helicopter in the Irish Sea off Blackpool. He was wearing an immersion suit, but only just survived thanks to a passing aircraft dropping him a dinghy. His immersion suit leaked and he recalled how quickly he lost feeling due to the cold.

I think the issues to consider are:
The 'shock' of the experience and the fact that, rather than being a small boy swimming in the sea off Whitby, you will be suddenly cold, in shock and possibly injured;
In an environment which is alien to you, with the added dangers of sea state and sea temperature; and
Unlikely to be 100% prepared in terms of survival equipment, clothing and knowledge of its use - particularly in the adverse conditions of a ditching (I've never seen an immersion suit nor seen anyone wearing one in reality).

I'm sure I read an article in Pilot magazine years ago written by a former Air/Sea Rescue pilot who stated that in all the years he had been flying in that role he never brought anyone out of the sea alive. Some survived the ditching, but of those none survived the sea and the cold.

FOK

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Above The Clouds

Yes, as you point out with the correct equipment.

How many people have that - and know instinctively and effectively how to operate it?

A ditching is no time to read the operating instructions!

I know when I was flying with the airlines and ditching was discussed, we all thought the training techniques were less than ideal and effective - leave the aircraft by the emergency exits, inflate your lifejacket, form a circle joining hands/tieing your lifejackets together, assist the passengers ... whatever?!

All designed - as with all things in aviation - to provide an 'option'. No disaster in aviation is trained for with anything other than a 'happy ending' - not even two engines falling off your B737!

Maybe if the true statistics of ditching a light single in Northern waters was made clear an engine failure might be taken more seriously. Personally, I don't think many people take the risks too seriously. I flew to the TT Races in the IOM this year and was one of (I think) only two or three twins there. Most people were in shirt sleeves and no sign of one immersion suit. I'm sure many had dinghies and (I hope) all had lifejackets - luckily none had an engine failure.

What would have happened if the friend of Above The Clouds hadn't been found in 18 hours - but not for days?

I'll never fly a single across water again - the same friend who I flew to France with the first time flew another C172 years later the flight after the aircraft had returned from the IOM. He had an engine failure/fire and managed to glide into Sywell. Had that happened to the pilot a flying hour before, who knows?

FOK

[abgd]

I'm slightly alarmed at the previous comment about trying to ditch on an oil-tanker. I guess crude isn't as volatile as gasoline, but my immediate thought is that it would be better to ditch next to the ship and hope that someone was on lookout duty.

[Romeo Tango]

IMHO this thread is an interesting lesson on perceived risk.

To imply that it is irresponsible/stupid to fly across the Irish Sea in a well maintained PA28/C172 is ridiculous. Frankly I'm happy to take my wife and children on such a trip. Of course take a life jacket/dingy/PLB and tell your passengers how to use them but only because it's easy to do, the chances of actually getting them wet is tiny.

The reduction in risk of using a twin turbine flown by two professional pilots is too small to worry about, and has multiple disadvantages.

Bill

[dont overfil]

IMHO this thread is an interesting lesson on perceived risk.


It is indeed. There are many unpleasant things to hit after an engine failure over land.

Some posters seem to have so little faith in a piston engine I am surprised they use them at all.

Flying for 23 years and 1100 hours I've never had an engine failure. Driving for 44 years at around 15000 miles per year I've only had engine failure on one vehicle. A crappy mini van with a known faulty fuel pump temporarily fixed by thumping it. Of course I've had a few which wouldn't start!

D.O.

[DaveW]

I'm slightly alarmed at the previous comment about trying to ditch on an oil-tanker. I guess crude isn't as volatile as gasoline, but my immediate thought is that it would be better to ditch next to the ship and hope that someone was on lookout duty.

My neighbour is a retired VLCC 'Old Man', and we've had a similar conversation. I've also discussed it with an RNLI coxswain.

Both are adamant - don't ditch next to an oil tanker.

The watch probably won't see you, and even if they did there's virtually no chance of the tanker stopping, even if it could (which is unlikely given its momentum).

The RNLI chap (who is also a flyer) recommends ferries, assuming the luxury of the option. Lots of eyes, and very manoeuvrable.

[mm_flynn]

The reduction in risk of using a twin turbine flown by two professional pilots is too small to worry about, and has multiple disadvantages.

Bill

That is actually not true. While the risk in a single engine single crew crossing may be acceptable (and it certainty is to me as I do that type of crossing), professionally crewed twin turbine aircraft have orders of magnitude less probability of going down due to a power plant failure (or more generally for any reason). Note - Not zero as the various multiple bird strikes and the Beijing to Hatton Cross flight in recent years demonstrate, but much much lower than single crew piston singles.

There is a reasonably consistent annual rate of light piston powered aircraft ditching around the UK. Disappointingly, the most common reason to swim seems to be running out of fuel! I think all of the twins except for the mystery dual unrelated root cause IOM Twin Comanche went down due to fuel exhaustion/mismanagement.

It is global news if a twin turbine has both engines shut down.

[david viewing]

I've crossed to Ireland on many occasions in a PA-28. One thing I'd like to add to this discussion is the importance of the ferry routes. On the Holyhead Dublin route there are always ferries somewhere and on most days the gaps between them are far less than the gliding distance to shore. I always take note of each ferry that I leave behind me, just in case.

There are ferries on the Southern route (Fishguard/Milford Haven to Rosslare) but the gaps between them are much bigger. Ditto the Stranraer to Larne route, but of course the crossing is much shorter here. I travelled on the bridge of a P&O ferry once and was impressed to see that they carry a 121.5 radio permanently on.

Other routes, like Central Wales to Arklow, have no ferries and sometimes little other shipping to be seen. I don't route that way now, although I've done it a few times in the past, because I don't regard the risk in an SEP (or any reciprocating engined aircraft) as being completely negligible.

Finally, it's worth noting that there is great value in being in continuous radio contact with someone when over the sea, just in case something does go wrong, especially on summer evenings and other times when Valley is closed and Dublin hand you off to London Information. Amazingly the promulgated frequency of 124.75 DOES NOT WORK to the west of Holyhead due to the shadow of Snowdon although the Northern frequency of 125.475 does. I've been banging on about this for more than 10yrs but nothing ever gets done about it, apart from them removing the legend 'London Information 124.75' from the 1/2 mil map right at the spot where it doesn't work!

[Stewart52]

I've flown from Newtownards via Ronaldsway (IoM) to Sywell & back over the past couple of months. C172, with 4 up, in the back on the way out and P1 back. We all wore lifejackets, but we were over open water for what seemed a very long time, and I couldn't help thinking about a recent article in "Pilot" about a contributor who suffered engine failure thanks to a piece of dead insect blocking the main jet in his carburettor. He was able to land on a golf course though. Also my son is a SAR Sea King pilot, who told me in no uncertain terms how silly he thought it was to fly a single on a long over water leg without all the survival gear - immersion suits, dinghies, PLBs, when it wasn't absolutely necessary. Assuming you survive the ditching, can extricate yourself from the back of a sinking Cessna without the dunker training the military seem to think is necessary, and assuming you don't then succumb to cold shock, the SAR guys, when they arrive, are going to be looking for a football-sized object (your head!) in a large expanse of water.
Like others have said, it's all about how much risk you want to take, but I personally won't be doing that sort of route again. There are much shorter sea crossings between Scotland & NI and I'd use those, albeit at the expense of a few additional flying miles. There's still water, but much less of it!

[Romeo Tango]

professionally crewed twin turbine aircraft have orders of magnitude less probability of going down due to a power plant failure (or more generally for any reason).

Yes, but the difference in absolute risk is tiny.

Spending ones life in a cave to avoid being hit by meteorites reduces the risk by several orders of magnitude but the improvement in absolute risk is very small.

Bill

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Stewart52

Yes, my points exactly - and interesting that your son confirms the advice penned those years ago by another ex-SAR pilot.

The more I've learn't about flying, the less 'risks' I've learn't to take!

KR

FOK :)

[PompeyPaul]

Help sometimes comes from unlikely places! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19983570)

[BackPacker]

Very odd story, that last one.

An Air Canada passenger plane dropped 30,000 feet in order to help a yacht that was in distress.

They probably descended 30,000 feet.

But furthermore, this guys mast broke. Problem, but not all that uncommon in off-shore sailing. Part of your emergency equipment should be stuff to cut through the mainstays and hack through the mast remains so that you can cut it all free. He apparently did so, then motored on for 12 hours while knowing full well that he would not have the fuel to reach land. But only when nearly out of fuel did he somehow raise the alarm, and for some reason the Coast Guard did not have any clue where he was.

We are discussing on here whether you should have a (possibly GPS enabled) PLB for crossing the Channel or North Sea, in addition to the ELT. For flights lasting less than an hour (sometimes even mere minutes) over water. I would have thought that having a GPS enabled PLB (or two) on board for oceanic sailing would be a given. Maybe a satphone as well. At the very least, something to rig up a backup VHF antenna.

So somehow I think there's more to the story than what's currently in the media.

[soay]

In an interview I saw with the pilot, he said they found the yacht where they expected it to be. That implies the guy on board had transmitted his location.

[Fuji Abound]

We are discussing on here whether you should have a (possibly GPS enabled) PLB for crossing the Channel or North Sea, in addition to the ELT. For flights lasting less than an hour (sometimes even mere minutes) over water. I would have thought that having a GPS enabled PLB (or two) on board for oceanic sailing would be a given. Maybe a satphone as well. At the very least, something to rig up a backup VHF antenna.

Most yachts intending to cross oceans these days would have an EPIRB, GPS chart plotters, SSB or a sat. phone and an emergency VHF radio. All are requirements for entry in the ARC (the rally for cruisers crossing the Atlantic and held every year). It of course doesnt mean to say all yachts carry everything or even some carry nothing. Sat. phones are still considered expensive as are SSBs so there are certainly some yachts that would have neither. VHF propagation at sea level is essentially line of sight so in the middle of an ocean another vessel to relay is your main hope.

You might well put together a jury rig so reliance on the engine is not total.

One suspects (I have not read the reports) that he must have communicated his distress in some way for the aircraft to be looking for him in the first place. Unlike a "downed" aircraft you will almost never stay still in the ocean (although with a drogue parachute you will drift very little) so your initial GPS fix will change over time. His original point of distress may have been somewhat removed from his position 24 hours later, although yachts are usually very pleased with a full rig to make anywhere near 200 miles in a day. He might have typically motored at between 6 and 8 knots so never the less he could have been a considerable distance from his original point of distress.

[mr_rodge]

This whole flight over water thingy crops up time and time again, but I've never seen a poll on the should you/shoudn't you debate. I'd like to see one! I may just do an online survey and post a link here, with different variables such as 'would you wear an immersion suit? If not, why not?' with multiple choice answers.

It'd apply only to SEPs.

[Pace]

Mr Rodge

Your poll would have to be more detailed.
Would you fly from Dover to France a distance barely more than 20nm and most would probably say YES.
Would you fly 500 nm over the North Atlantic and the answer maybe very different.
With a piston single there is a risk. anyone who thinks there is no risk or negligable risk is naive so usually it boils down to how much risk your prepared to take?
I fly with a guy who did a lot of ferry work he lost power in a single 300 nm from land over the North Atlantic. Spiraling down through cloud he broke out at 500 feet above the sea with the only fishing boat right below him.
He landed in the water and was picked up spending a week on the boat before they returned.
How lucky was that???

Pace

[peterh337]

One issue with the N. Atlantic is that the chances of a rescue might be very slim.

[BackPacker]

Agree that a simple multiple choice poll would not yield any meaningful results.

I think most on here will agree that if you have the choice between a 10/50/300 nm leg over water and a 10/50/300 nm leg over land (with grass fields, preferably), to get from A to B, you would choose the land route.

But that's not the choice. To get from A to B you sometimes have to fly over water, out of gliding distance of land, and there are only a few options: The direct route which may have a long overwater leg, or a dogleg to minimize exposure, or EasyJet.

Which choice you make out of those three depends on too many factors to capture in a simple poll.

First, the (perceived) actual risk: Are you flying an old dog of an aircraft or one that has proven to be very reliable over the last few months? How long is the overwater leg going to be, and how long are you out of gliding distance? What altitude can you fly at, both weather and airspace wise? What's the water temperature and sea state like? What airframe are you flying, and how well would it cope with a ditching? How much fuel can you bring along and where is your point of no return (if there is one)? What are the rescue services and options like?

Second, ability. Do you have experience in flying over water, do you have an IR (so you can go high), did you do a maritime survival training?

Third, reason. Why is the flight necessary? Is EasyJet or a dogleg a viable option? (I flew to the UK recently for an aerobatics contest. It's a bit of a challenge to get an R2160 in the belly of a 737...) Can you send passengers ahead (EasyJet or Eurostar to the other side, pick them up there) so they don't have to be on board for the crossing?

Fourth, risk mitigation. What equipment do you have and do you know how to use? What do you need to borrow, buy or rent? What sort of equipment (immersion suit, life jacket) would you force onto your passengers, if any?

And there may well be other factors. Heck, even religion/karma/fatalism/predestination may play a role in the decision making process, plus the question "what am I leaving behind should the worst happen?" At the end of the day, someone will weigh all these factors against each other and make a decision.

[Pace]

Backpacker

Nicely said :ok:

Pace