Big Redundancies Coming at Netjets?

[doggedpilot]

Found this in a pilot lounge:

Please find below details of the launch of a Redundancy Consultation for Pilots in Command (PICs) which I have just announced to all affected pilots.

A revised gateway policy reflecting these changes will be circulated to all crew members today and comes into force with immediate effect. From today all permanent gateway moves will be suspended for the duration of the consultation period.

I fully recognise that this is difficult news. However in such challenging global conditions, this is a necessary step in order for the company to remain competitive, and I trust that I can continue to rely upon your professionalism to keep the NetJets spirit going through the challenging period ahead.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Dear Colleagues,

As you are all aware, NetJets Europe has over the last few years faced unprecedented market conditions.

The prolonged downturn in the economy has led to a fall in demand for business aviation. In the circumstances, we have had to look at whatever steps we can take to control and reduce our own costs to safeguard the competitiveness of our business.

Currently, we employ 780 pilots of whom 529 are pilots-in-command (PICs) and 251 are seconds-in-command (SICs). Our assessment is that, whilst we do not have any excess of SICs (and they are not therefore affected by this proposal), we need to reduce the total number of PICs by 128.

In addressing this matter, we have to take account of another issue facing the business which is a significant change in European social security regulations. As you are aware from previous communications, the current position is that under EU law the UK system of social security contributions applies to crew employed by NetJets Management Limited (NJML). However, a new European regulation that has come into force now affects the social security regime applicable to crew based upon the country in which their gateway is located. We estimate that based on current crew levels and social security rates, these changes will cost the business an additional 6.3m Euros per year in employer contributions.

If the necessary reduction in the number of PICs cannot be achieved through voluntary redundancy, then the proposal is to select PICs for compulsory redundancy based first on the employer social security rates of their gateway country and secondly, where employees have gateways in the same country, by reference to their salary costs. Therefore, French and Belgian gateway PIC's will be first to go. It is proposed that PICs who are made compulsorily redundant would receive their contractual notice and a redundancy payment calculated in accordance with UK law but not any enhanced severance package.

In addition to the proposals outlined above, we have decided that, while gateways in the following countries will remain open for PICs and SICs already operating from those gateways, they will be closed to new moves:

[Airbubba]

If the necessary reduction in the number of PICs cannot be achieved through voluntary redundancy, then the proposal is to select PICs for compulsory redundancy based first on the employer social security rates of their gateway country and secondly, where employees have gateways in the same country, by reference to their salary costs. Therefore, French and Belgian gateway PIC's will be first to go.

Sounds a lot like a hoax to me. :confused:

[parabellum]

If it is a hoax it appears to have been a very well thought out one? Had it been released on 1st April then yes, an 'FO's Revenge' type of thing. Are Netjets pilots self employed? It would be interesting to know what the laws of the respective lands have to say about the method chosen for selecting compulsory redundancy too.

[screwballburling]

Hoax?

I don't think so. You will notice seniority has not been mentioned in this writeup. That is typical US style management of course. Loyalty to a company is rewarded with a kick up the ****.

[natops]

Serious business guys and girls.

I hope that all the pilots involved will find a new job real soon.
Must give you guys a lot of stress...

Hang in there!
N.:ok:

[Flying Mechanic]

Netjets china will need a fair few pilots, there AOC is being processed now.If you like the Tate of noodles......the Zhuhai base might be the place for u!

[AngryPilot]

It's even worse... They are targeting mainly French and Belgian Captains.

:mad::mad::mad:

"Our proposal is to reduce the number of PICs employed by NJML from 529 to 401, i.e. a reduction of 128.
We therefore propose to offer voluntary redundancy to PICs with gateways in the six countries with the highest employer social security rates. These are listed below in descending order (i.e. of the six countries France has the highest rate and Hungary the lowest):

Country / Number of PICs with gateways in that country as at 5 October 2012
France /105
Belgium /61
Czech Republic /2
Sweden /9
Italy /10
Hungary /1"

[Mike Oxbig]

Dogged pilot,

"Found this in a pilot lounge:"

was it left visible on an open computer page or printed out? Just curious as to the provenence!

[cldrvr]

Netjets is just responding to the Socialist government in France. If you want to have a go at anyone, send Hollande an email.

NJE cannot be expected to carry French pilots when their cost have increased by 6Mn a year.

[cldrvr]

Loyalty to a company is rewarded with a kick up the ****.


You are venting your frustration in the wrong direction. NJE is in the business of making money, not providing employment for those who are loyal or buy donuts on a Monday.

When the cost of employment goes up for one part of the company, any company, American or not, will cut costs it just happens to be French pilots today.

[His dudeness]

You are venting your frustration in the wrong direction. NJE is in the business of making money, not providing employment for those who are loyal or buy donuts on a Monday.

When the cost of employment goes up for one part of the company, any company, American or not, will cut costs it just happens to be French pilots today.

Whilst this seems todays fashion, I was most impressed with NJE when they offered their packages 3 years ago in order to make it not too hard for the crews...IMO - I´m oldfashioned, I know - if I were Mr.NetJets, I´d TALK to the guys concerned first, before I slash their jobs. Maybe some of them would like to move and keep their jobs ?

Of course, we can throw everything over board that our fathers and grandfathers fought for and do as the capital pleases, the question is: is this a world we want to really live in ?


Good luck to all the guys in question...

[733driver]

@ His dudeness: 100% spot on.

[screwballburling]

cldrvr

Jolly good.

I doubt you would be singing the same tune, if it was your job on the line.

Maybe you are so brain washed by the corporate mentality, you would actually volunteer for redundancy? Just to save the company a few dollars. You know, the, (soon to be) company you did work for.

Gimme a :mad: break. :yuk:

[CaptainProp]

was it left visible on an open computer page or printed out? Just curious as to the provenence!

Good question. The stuff I see in crew room printers and download folders on PUBLIC computers never stops to amaze me!! By the way, deleting downloaded files is not enough, you have to delete the files from the trash can as wel....l

CP

[Mike Oxbig]

But the costs of employment are not going up for a maximum of another 10 years! My understanding (and please correct me if wrong) is that there is a 10 year transition period before the new social security laws come into force where the employee can decide whether to continue paying in the UK (in NetJets case) OR their country of residence. if the company were to request all employees to maintain NI contributions to the UK, the cost is deferred 10 years. There is obviously another agenda under the table to target these nationalities - why not use time and trusted seniority as all other airlines seem to? That then retains those loyal and experienced employees.

Still waiting for the explanation of 'Found in the crew room'!

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

@Angry Pilot

From reading the letter at the top and your post it does not appear that they are not targeting French and Belgian pilots. They are targeting a Gateway. I imagine there will be many English and other nationality of pilots living in France (not sure about Belgium, no offence guys) and therefore affected.

[Dark Master]

Dear Colleagues,



As you are all aware, NetJets Europe has over the last few years faced unprecedented market conditions.



The prolonged downturn in the economy has led to a fall in demand generally for business aviation. In the circumstances, we have had to look at whatever steps we can take to control and reduce our own costs to safeguard the competitiveness of our business.



We have already implemented a comprehensive set of measures to reduce and control costs. Both the Voluntary Options and the more recent Voluntary Separation programme sought to minimise impact on pilots as far as possible and were initiated in good faith to avoid having to terminate employment on the grounds of redundancy, in the hope that in due course the economy would pick up.



As the Voluntary Options programme comes to an end within the next 15 months and following the final swap of most crew members to their job share year on, we have had to look again at the number of pilots we employ and compare this with anticipated demand.



Last year, when we launched the Voluntary Separation programme, we informed you that our forecasts indicated that at the end of the Voluntary Options programme, the probability was that we would still have too many pilots when compared with likely flight demand. The Voluntary Separation programme was therefore intended to help address this. Although the offer of voluntary separation was taken up by 152 employees, unfortunately, in the light of continued lower flight demand, this was not sufficient to address the issue of over-capacity of pilots. We expect that trading conditions across Europe will remain fragile and, based on our current forecasts, we do not expect to see a return to the levels of demand that would require our present crewing levels for several years. In the circumstances, it is critical for the future of the business that we take steps now to address this issue.



Currently, we employ 780 pilots of whom 529 are pilots-in-command (PICs) and 251 are seconds-in-command (SICs). Our assessment is that, whilst we do not have any excess of SICs (and they are not therefore affected by this proposal), we need to reduce the total number of PICs by 128.



In addressing this matter, we have to take account of another issue facing the business which is a significant change in European social security regulations. As you are aware from previous communications, the current position is that under EU law the UK system of social security contributions applies to crew employed by NetJets Management Limited (NJML). However, a new European regulation that has come into force now affects the social security regime applicable to crew based upon the country in which their gateway is located. We estimate that based on current crew levels and social security rates, these changes will cost the business an additional €6.3m per year in employer contributions.



Proposals



In light of the position outlined above, we have formulated proposals to address the issues we face as a business. Unfortunately these proposals would involve job losses. These proposals are subject to consultation with employee representatives to be elected by the affected employees.



Our proposal is to reduce the number of PICs employed by NJML from 529 to 401, i.e. a reduction of 128.



If possible, we would like to avoid the need to make any compulsory redundancies. We therefore propose to offer voluntary redundancy to PICs with gateways in the six countries with the highest employer social security rates. These are listed below in descending order (i.e. of the six countries France has the highest rate and Hungary the lowest):



Country

Number of PICs with gateways in that country as at 5 October 2012

France

105*

Belgium

61

Czech Republic

2

Sweden

9

Italy

10

Hungary

1



* PICs with Basel and Geneva gateways have been included in the total number of PICs with gateways in France and will be given the opportunity to opt for voluntary redundancy. Further clarification is required from the authorities regarding the treatment for social security purposes of PICs with these gateways before we can confirm whether or not such PICs would be included in any compulsory redundancy exercise.



PICs with gateways in these countries will under the proposal have the option to leave with a one-off compensation payment equivalent to 15 months’ base salary (less applicable tax and social security payments) regardless of seniority. This sum will include any individual notice pay and redundancy payment entitlements but, clearly, will be well in excess of the value of those entitlements.



If the necessary reduction in the number of PICs cannot be achieved through voluntary redundancy, then the proposal is to select PICs for compulsory redundancy based first on the employer social security rates of their gateway country and secondly, where employees have gateways in the same country, by reference to their salary costs. It is proposed that PICs who are made compulsorily redundant would receive their contractual notice and a redundancy payment calculated in accordance with UK law but not any enhanced severance package.



In addition to the proposals outlined above, we have decided that, while gateways in the following countries will remain open for PICs and SICs already operating from those gateways, they will be closed to new moves:



France

Belgium

Czech Republic

Sweden

Italy

Hungary

Finland

Norway



A revised gateway policy reflecting these changes will be circulated to all crew members today and comes into force with immediate effect.



From today all permanent gateway moves will be suspended for the duration of the consultation period.



Consultation and Election of Employee Representatives



As stated above, these proposals are subject to consultation with employee representatives to be elected by PICs with gateways in France, Belgium, Czech Republic, Sweden, Italy and Hungary.



Details of the main functions of these representatives can be found at: The role of employee representatives | Business Link (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1074477056&type=RESOURCES).



The company therefore invites PICs to elect:



• two representatives for PICs with gateways in France (the France Constituency);

• two representatives for PICs with gateways in Belgium (the Belgium Constituency); and

• two representatives for PICs with gateways in Czech Republic, Sweden, Italy and Hungary (the Third Constituency).



As a PIC with a gateway in one of the relevant countries, you are entitled to nominate an individual for election as an employee representative. You may nominate yourself or any other PIC with a gateway in the same constituency as yourself. For example, PICs with gateways in France can only nominate themselves or any other PIC with a gateway in France. PICs in the Czech Republic may nominate themselves or any other PIC with a gateway in the Czech Republic, Sweden, Italy or Hungary.



Your nominee must be an employee of NJML. Please also check that your nominee is willing to stand as a candidate for election.



Employee representatives will serve until the end of the consultation process which is anticipated to last until 31 January 2013. It is anticipated that the first meeting with employee representatives will take place on 31 October 2012 and that subsequent meetings may take place at regular intervals thereafter.



If you wish to nominate yourself or someone else for election, please complete the nomination form (at the end of this email and attached) and return it to Carla Pombeiro by e-mail at [email protected] by 12pm Lisbon time on 12 October 2012. In the case of a nomination of a colleague, your form must be accompanied by an email from the nominee agreeing to stand for election. Nomination forms received after this date will not be considered.



If more nominations are received than the number of vacancies, then a secret ballot will be arranged to elect employee representatives. Each PIC in a constituency will be entitled to two votes. The ballot will be conducted by Electoral Reform Services (an independent body) in order to ensure fairness, accuracy and confidentiality.



Questions



If you have any questions in relation to the proposals set out above or the consultation process, please send them by email to [email protected]. I have also attached answers to some FAQs for your information.



I appreciate that the announcement of these proposals is likely to cause significant concern and great uncertainty. As soon as the representatives have been elected we will commence detailed consultation with them and in addition we will keep you informed of developments throughout the consultation process. In the meantime, I would ask you to continue to focus on delivering to our customers the highest standards of safety and service.



Yours,



Mark

MARK WILSON
Chief Operating Officer



Discover the Bombardier Global 6000,
the new flagship of the NetJets fleet.
NetJets Europe | Enjoy Fractional Jet Ownership (http://www.netjetseurope.com)

[mushroom69]

Seems like a very clear message. They have over-capacity and need to reduce the number of employees. Seems they are offering people a voluntary package that also seems fair. If the desired reduction is achieved, that will be the end. If not, then they will fire some people.

It seems that on other forums, there was some laughing at Ryanair.....now they will get their comeuppance....they will have to start paying the social benefits where their employees are based.....lol! Well, the other side of the coin, is that everyone else, based on their Base, will cost their company the local social contribution. In some countries, this contribution is heavily employer-based.

Let's be fair in thinking about this question. Consider a company based in Spain, with aircraft all over Europe and employees based in every European country. Where should these employees be taxed, where should they be socially insured? The technocrats have finally decided that taxes are paid in the country where the aircraft (or ship) is registered, while (and this is new) the social insurance is paid where the crew member has his/her BASE. So you can actually live in France, say.....but determine your base gateway to be London. You pay your own way to London at the start of your duty and back after duty. The company gets you to/from that gateway to the aircraft.

All theory. But the reality is that, due to the different systems of social insurance in the various countries, where some countries can add 35% of salary TO BE PAID BY THE EMPLOYER as social insurance, then that is a severe extra cost to the company. The result is that companies will avoid hiring people with base (gateways in NJ speak) in those countries.

So if you are presently living in France and want to continue to do so, make your gateway a German city and pay what it costs to get there and back. If you are too far away from another country to make this practical, you will have to relocate or find another employer.

Sorry.....that is a result of a change in legislation. Example---So in Denmark, cars are taxed at 105% up to about 8500€ wholesale price. Thereafter at 180%(!!) Then when all this is added together, 25% VAT on top! So in principle, you buy three cars and give two of them to the State in taxes. That is why you see an immediate change in the size and age of cars when crossing the border from Germany or Sweden. Same deal......you get some advantages living in Denmark, have to weigh the disadvantages and make your decision. If you are a motorhead, then maybe Denmark is not the place to live.

It is the same all over. We are nomads, our industry is international in scope. The various governments are all fighting to get the right to tax our salaries and have us pay social insurance. The technocrats have passed legislation to address these conflicting demands on our tax money.

Make your decisions based on what is important to you. But it certainly is not NJE "fault" at the end of the day. It is what it is.......

[Tags]

"So if you are presently living in France and want to continue to do so, make your gateway a German city and pay what it costs to get there and back. If you are too far away from another country to make this practical, you will have to relocate or find another employer. "

If you'd read the thread in its entireity, you'd realise that all gateway changes are frozen!
So my mate in France, can't move to one of NJ's preferred gateways to keep his job!! It should be LIFO, and all those above the line have to relocate, if they choose not to, then seek employement elsewhere.

[mushroom69]

I did read that the gateways were frozen for the time. I was generalizing for all of us, as every pilot will be impacted by this ruling if they work for a company in another country and have a "base." Every company will be impacted as well. Imagine the nightmare situation for a large company with many employees spread all over the EU.

Each of these countries have differing rules and the book-keeping function will have to learn all these country rules and processes. It can be difficult to understand the rules in one's own country at times......but 23 sets of rules?

I understood the base freeze was temporary in NJ case, as they are trying to get a handle on the implications, but it looks grim for the French and Belgian based.

It is in a way another case of pulling one leg of the table and being surprised that the other three move as well. This regulation was addressed at one aspect and no one thought about the other aspects, it seems. So someone is feeling smug, that they will get some money into their country coffers. The end result, might be that the impacted pilot either moves or becomes unemployed. In either case, the money his family previously spent locally on clothing, shoes, meals, supermarkets, services etc, will now go elsewhere. Net result is less money in circulation, fewer jobs and in an even worse case, a ward of the unemployment office is created out of a former net positive contributor.

I remember when ports in Norway were required to be "self-financed." It sounds good, doesn't it? The port income and the port expenses should be in balance. What happens in reality though, is that the port fees go up so high, that the ships go to other ports, making the remaining ships pay even more. As ships leave, the radar repairman, the dry dock, the painters and carpenters, the chandlers, and their families are out of jobs. The end result is that the largest port in Norway is now in Sweden! So many goods arrive "in Norway," via GØteborg and are driven in by lorries.

"Well yes, but it is a principle of this government that the ports and administrations other places be user-financed." Again, sounds good.....net results---closed airports, closed or reduced ports, high costs of licenses.

[doggedpilot]

Quote:
was it left visible on an open computer page or printed out? Just curious as to the provenence!
Good question. The stuff I see in crew room printers and download folders on PUBLIC computers never stops to amaze me!! By the way, deleting downloaded files is not enough, you have to delete the files from the trash can as wel....l

CP

This isn't an aircraft accident investigation. If I warned everybody how to avoid carelessness in leaving things on computers and in crew lounges, I'd miss out on a lot of interesting reads!

[His dudeness]

I did read that the gateways were frozen for the time. I was generalizing for all of us, as every pilot will be impacted by this ruling if they work for a company in another country and have a "base." Every company will be impacted as well. Imagine the nightmare situation for a large company with many employees spread all over the EU

Dead right. I was employed in Luxembourg a few years ago. Asking the same question to Revenue Services would give result in different information, every guy had his opinion, had even to employ a lawyer at one stage...

This makes the Nobelprize an even bigger joke. How on Earth could one pack 20+ coutries in on bag and not get at least social and financial laws sorted before. This can`t and doesn`t work and won´t in the future. I would really like to leave, but where to ?

[ericthepilot]

NetJets Europe Plans To Reduce Pilot Staff by a Third
Despite the outward appearance of growth with the recent announcement about the addition of Bombardier Global 6000s to its fleet, NetJets Europe is seeking further voluntary redundancies from its pilot workforce in response to prolonged softening in demand for fractional shares and jet cards, the company confirmed. It has begun a consultation process with flight crews, repeating an exercise that it embarked on three years ago at the height of the financial crisis. “In 2009, due to the global economic environment, we launched a voluntary options program to manage excess crew levels at NetJets Europe due to a decrease in flight demand,” NetJets Europe told AIN. “Forecasts indicate that market growth will not resume to previous levels for a number of years. To align our crewing levels with customer demand, we have put forward a voluntary redundancy proposal to our pilots and are undergoing a consultation process. As this is an internal matter, it would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage.” The options offered to pilots in 2009 included long- and short-term leave of absence, job sharing, part-time work or voluntary redundancy. At the time, this approach achieved the company’s goal of reducing flight crew capacity by 60,000 pilot duty days per year. Back then, it employed 1,046 pilots, and 87 of these took voluntary redundancy with many more opting for job sharing. Sources close to NetJets’ flight crew have told AIN that NetJets Europe is seeking to reduce its payroll to around 650 pilots, an approximate one-third cut.

[No RYR for me]

I must say that this hard for the gateway's involved but on the other hand a very balanced approach by NJE. After 2008 they were very reluctant in firing people while everybody was firing left right and centre... Speaking to NJ pilots at fbo's I was surprised at the little amount of flying they did lately and the high number of PIC's flying together... So people must have seen the writing on the wall.. :\

[atr42500]

Unless you re close to upper management at nje , you cannot write this kind of stuff

what do you know about the "very balanced approach" ???

what cost is involved in doing that ?
how many new type rating will be needed ?

But nje has a target , whatever is the cost .. money is not an issue when those big companies have a goal to achieve..

but for once NJE has a 10 years plan :D

i agree with you , one thing is sure NO RYR for me too:)

[cldrvr]

cldrvr

Jolly good.

I doubt you would be singing the same tune,
if it was your job on the line.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Anyone who has been in this business long enough has gone through it. There are very few, if any, large enough operators in Europe that have not seen layoffs.

This is the nature of our business, a plane when things go well is a tool to be used extensively, when the sh!t hits the fan, the plan is just a liability and the beancounters like to see it go when the downturn is upon us.

I was solely commenting on the posters who said that based on his loyalty a job was owed to him/her. Time to wake up and smell the coffee, the health of our industry and job security is directly linked to the health of the economy and specifically to the speciality the principal operates in when talking about smaller operators. A large operator like Netjets has to respond to the wider economy it operates in, when belt get tightened, the plane, shared ownership and charters suffer.

[No RYR for me]

what do you know about the "very balanced approach" ??? Having been through the 2008 layoffs and seeing people around me fired who had just paid up to 40K (!!) for an unusable TR on a Citation III or similar I feel that a company that kept on people for another 4 years through a recession with large overcapacity fairly balanced :confused:

The fact that they target certain employees in certain countries is not nice but at the same time looking at the countries selected I can understand it... So yes: very balanced (but not nice for the people involved!) :rolleyes:

[upthejunction]

What a great opportunity to wipe out Skyshare..... I wonder !

[ericthepilot]

There will be 128 pilots made redundant ....

[No RYR for me]

Interesting reading on territory's etc...
Connection with the UK examined again in context of trade union recognition - Lexology (http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=b708db5c-95c9-49e2-ac3e-5b8857818b57)

[Waldi]

Been here long time, got even a plasic thing saying thanks and looking forward to many years working together....

its just my opinion, the company will fail! I am "not affected, but I would love to take the money, but I will go even without!

We had good times! It was the best Company to work for!

Bye Bye, Fraction

[pilotatlast]

Am I being thick here but why bye bye fraction?:rolleyes:

[binzer]

Well if you are a captain just go. Then there would only be 127 captains needed to leave. The problem as we know we over recruited because of a load of idiots from previous managements, and they left this lot with a plate of sh@t. Cuts are happening all over the job markets it's just unfortunate for those it's affects. If it wasn't those 128 it would be another 128. And remember there will be 500 other crew hoping this company survives so they can make a living. It's a sad man who wishes the downfall of netjets. Not saying you do but you have opions. Why the end of netjets then?

[Waldi]

But still, if I get a chance somewhere else I am gone. Many changes ahead! Travel department in LIS? Why? Catering department in LIS? Why? Scheduling and so on.

I will ship the Honor plastic reward back, "looking for many years to work with you"

Just my thoughts, and I am from the continent!

[binzer]

You are not at the wrong gateway. Anyone can leave it's just that you won't the get redundancy money. You just want your cake and eat it. If it's so bad just leave and give someone else a chance. This company can hopefully turn it's self around. We are going back to where we were 6 years ago before the maniacs in the asylum took over, and now we have a sensible outlook. No it's not going to be the same during the growth period but that's life. I still like this company and want it to work so I and others will profit from employment.

[Victorian Dad]

If You know the business model you would not be asking Why Why Why Catering Travel etc in Lisbon, I think the thread has got off track.


Its a total shame whats going on, any other company would have cut the crew years ago with the slightest hint of reductions.
Im afraid its time to face the music they are struggling and need to cut back in all areas.
Lots of senior management have gone already, I do not agree with the methods used to select the redundancies and given this it will be challenged in the european decree of employment laws.

[sooty3694]

I was always surprised that NJE treated the subject of redundancies so compassionately, and provided crews with so many options. Their business, like so many others, has declined to such an extent that there would now appear to be less room for compassion.

For many this will be sad, but in the long run I suspect it will have benefits for the whole industry. NJE pilots are, I believe, better trained than most, and their introduction to the job market will most likely pull up the standards of GA.

[apruneuk]

"and their introduction to the job market will most likely pull up the standards of GA"

Speak for Yourself, Sooty.

[sooty3694]

I just did!

[Tequilaboy]

Had the opportunity to work with a few NJE pilots, some amazing, some with a self bestowed over blown sense of entitlement to jobs based on 'experience' with NJE. Some I wouldnt allow to pilot me on a gondola in a canal with divers in the water and a rescue chopper overhead. Yes same parent company owns Flight Safety but why does that make any difference to how they fly a jet than someone self funded or through another organisation?

Hope they are not cutting back on maintenance in the same way as some are speculating as to PIC employment however the DA2000 I saw spluttering earlier at EGLF earlier, wouldnt touch them with a barge pole. I am no engineer but christ, backfiring engines like that has to be something of a wake up call!

[His dudeness]

Yes same parent company owns Flight Safety but why does that make any difference to how they fly a jet than someone self funded or through another organisation?

One should think sim training does some good... I learned a lot from going into the sim, first roughly 8 years after I started my (shallow) career. Have been twice a year and now once a year I feel it did help me a lot. Annual refreshers of airplane systems is a good thing too.
If I compare my current status (not at NJE, but using FSI for the annual refresh) with that of mine before I could use the sim, then I´d say, yes it does make a difference.

Still, a lot is in the attitude towards learning and in the first place admitting that one can learn something. If you think you're a skygod, then all the training in the world won`t change you. VV, if you have the best of attitudes but never see a sim, you can`t know certain things...

[His dudeness]

I am no engineer but christ, backfiring engines like that has to be something of a wake up call!

Sounds interesting...care to tell us more?

[Tequilaboy]

Sorry, was referencing more that NJE pilots may think they are more accredited than others based on the same ownership with Berkshire Hathaway, not intending to devalue sim based training which is one of the best training methods outside obviously being actually in the sharp end!

In regards to yesterday NJE had one of their CS-DFE from memory (could be wrong) was on the ramp running and one of the engines was making a terrible metal on metal sound like a bearing had gone or something, throttled up and began spluttering and backfiring seemingly. There were 5 of us that just stopped and looked and all looked fairly bemused. Crew throttled up and down again and an enormous cough and a bang again!

Like i said, I dont know if this is normal or can happen, either way I would have been hesitant boarding!

[His dudeness]

Like i said, I dont know if this is normal or can happen, either way I would have been hesitant boarding!

Me too, but only if I´d know that there is NO maintenance done after such an event.
Our engines do rattle when spinning down, never fails to get the attention of new passengers...

Just a little story: I once took delivery (not mine!) of a brand new Challenger 300, flew it over (7 hrs) and had an oil chip detect message after landing and the engine had to be exchanged. Total time on this engine: 25 hrs.
Asked the Honeywell tech rep, he said this is unheard of with this engine. Checked the engine logbook of the exchange engine, which said that it was removed for an oil chip detect... these things happen and are by no means a sign of bad maintenance. (although very rarely in jet engines)

I do know some guys in NJE and I believe they would not take an unsafe aircraft out flying.
In fact, NJE seemed to be a bit over the top in this respect IMO, given some stories they told me about occasions when they ferried in replacement aircraft - which is a good thing.

[Globally Challenged]

Never was any question over teching an aircraft (or being asked to 'delay' writing down anything until you reach a certain airport). Also no questions asked over a crew calling fatigued etc.

NJE had/have a highly professional safety culture - no requirement to be 'flexible' with the rules like I have found elsewhere.

[No RYR for me]

In fact, NJE seemed to be a bit over the top in this respect IMO, given some stories they told me about occasions when they ferried in replacement aircraft - which is a good thing.

200% agree. If you want to attack NJE on something it is on the money wasted on engineering... :\