CPL failure.....again!

[Izzarch]

All,
Felt prepared, focused and tuned in and for once the sky was blue, however failed the Multi-Engine/ CPL Skills test for a second time today following a botched EFATO, wing drop and brain fart.
I think I know the answer but would appreciate sincere views as to my viability in tomorrows employment Market assuming I manage to pass Test No. 3 and thereafter the IR.
I'm 40, worked within Aircraft manufacture and maintenance up to now, which as an aside is rather positive from a manufacturing perspective, albeit seemingly endless deliveries for the parts of the world that see the sun rise hours before the UK, but am continually saddened to meet and read of individuals much younger than myself with good experience, first time passes etc.. not finding employment in the old world and of course my meagre stance in this pecking order.
I'm extremely lucky, house, gorgeous wife and kids for which the deal from the outset was to fly on condition of a sufficient wage to pay the mortgage and hopefully be home enough for the kids to appreciate the majestic delights of Dad's Toaster and Microwave meal expertise.
On a different day, can fly, but will I get a second look without the need for extortion or otherwise?

[truckflyer]

Extortion will be required unfortunately!

Depends fully on your goals, it is not impossible, but do not expect miracles to happen!

One thing though, why did you do your CPL on a ME? It would have been simpler and cheaper to have done it on a SEP/ Arrow etc.
And you would not have had to do the EFATO on your CPL test!

There will be chances, but not easy, thats for sure! Good luck!

[PURPLE PITOT]

An honest answer. You will be up against thousands (yes you read right) of 20 something kids with first time passes, who are prepared to pay to fly, or work for slave wages for years. Give up now. Fly for fun. See your kids more often than we do.

[Gazeem]

Purple - where did you get the thousands from? If you've got a hard source of facts can you share it?

[truckflyer]

You not just competing with UK pilots, you competing with EU pilots!

Few thousand for sure!

[PURPLE PITOT]

Correct TF, and factor in the schools being set up in China, you can probably double that in the next few years.

[Squealing Pig]

I dont know of anyone who was ever asked at interview how many takes for CPL, IR etc, most traing dept fully know its luck of the draw on the day somtimes. I got thru the IR on the 3rd go!

[Izzarch]

Thank you for replying and posting your thoughts, and of course you are all right.
My motivation to fly is pitched towards Survey, Air Taxi and smaller regional Operators where I hoped my personal strengths of life experience, attitude and maybe just a little hair dye (more chance of presenting myself in person to an accessible office) might offset my otherwise poor hours/ age mix and now the Test failures.
Yes, the money's poor but even the big jet pilots have other income streams, what else would they talk about at FL370, hence this was my intent.

I appreciate the aviation industry is far from the glamour of the not to distant past and although I take some of the candid views on PPRUNE with a pinch of salt, the whole world has changed and competition is severe across most industries for an ever diminishing slice of the cake assuming you are even allowed in the bakery.
We all adapt as best we can and hopefully you like me will have the chance to 'float your boat' with maybe just a few compromises.
Still can't believe the silly :mad: writing this failed again......and I've still got to tell my mum!

[G CEXO]

If you are definitely planning in completing your fATPL training then I would suggest you stop worrying at the minute and focus on passing the CPL and then the IR.

One step at a time mate and when you're employable, you can then worry about job prospects.

[PURPLE PITOT]

When throwing huge amounts of money at a licence, with a family to feed, i would think job prospects would be the first thing you would think about.

If not, i have a large supply of magic beans for sale!

[G CEXO]

When throwing huge amounts of money at a licence, with a family to feed, i would think job prospects would be the first thing you would think about.

One would assume that this has already been thought through even before money has been parted.

I think it will be in the best interest of this guy/girl to focus on one hurdle at a time. Stressing yourself out on possible job prospects even before you're anywhere near qualified does no one any good.

[Halfwayback]

First time passes are talked about here in a testosterone-charged manner. I have yet to ask that question when interviewing a pilot and I have never been asked it during a long career in aviation. My answer would be 'Does it matter now? I have a full licence and satisfy your criteria'. 30 odd years ago I took up the wrong hold at Jersey and failed my initial IR. 15 minutes later another examination fee was paid, we were soon airborne, into the hold correctly and then returning home via airways with an IR.

We all have off-days when under pressure of examination and I would defy anyone to say they can't be 'cracked' by pressure. I have been on sim rides with highly experienced pilots who have screwed up an EFATO and had another go and carried on flying the line. Examiners can always vary the pressure but you should always remember they are there to pass you. Unfortunately it is a bit more cut and dried during your initial.

If you really want to enter the commercial industry then go for it but, from your comments, you know the parlous state it is in.

HWB

[PURPLE PITOT]

It used to be very important to British Midland to have first time passes, but they are gone now. I quite agree, a licence is a licence, and anyone can be cracked in the sim. My concern is that the OP has a family to feed, and even assuming the pass, employment prospects are remote, and even then, a living wage to feed a family is unlikely.

Never give up the dream though:ok:

[bravobravo74]

I can't give you any advice however I sympathise with your situation. Luck plays a vital part in these exams and I'm sure that there's a correlation between the level of performance and the examiner/candidate dynamic.

Try not to base your expectations of the IR (in terms of how many attempts you'll need) on your number of CPL exam attempts. By the time that you do an IR exam you'll have previous experience of being in a professional-level flying exam situation.

[Izzarch]

Thank you, am fortunate to have short term contract work with a sympathetic boss, plus prior to commencing ground school we were fortunate to sell our house and downsize, so although not perfect my family is comfortable and my better half is fully supportive, in fact since the day we met I'd warned Mrs Izzarch of my ambitions.
The above advice and experience is really appreciated plus wise words from my Instructor have given me much food for thought, however it's Flying that gives me the 'Ready Brek' glow inside and out, and life's too short!
Back on the horse, BUMPFFCCAI, IPPUFPRAEFLI...............and third time lucky it is!
Good luck to all, let's hope those "Green shoots" arrive by Aircraft first and soon.

[KAG]

An EFATO is challenging when you have only 200 hours.

You need to know the procedures, and repeat them in your mind with a visual mental simulation thousands of times. Sometimes people put efforts on the wrong method to learn.

You should mentally visualize what is the effect of this failure on what you see (outside and instruments) and what you should do. Visualize engine failure on the right, and on the left engine. This is a mental excercise, and you should be able mentally to recall everything that's is goind to happen and all the actions required. Do not plan on doing your checkride before being able to mentally totally do any exercice required.
Fly the airplane, but do know/understand the check list and understand what is expected from you.

I bet you were not properly prepared.

For the record I am a former multi engine/IFR instructor with a few thousands hours of instructor experience.

[jimbols6]

dont worry about failing just keep at it, I failed my CPL on exactly the same thing. Went over the procedure 100 times in my head but still managed to mess it up on the day.
For the first time since I started training I wasn't enjoying my flying, the CPL was not fun and thats when you start to doubt yourself, but you have to keep going.
Its just a pain in the arse because of the expense but i'm sure you will get there in the end.

I dnt know what aircraft you doing your CPL on but I just completed my IR on the DA-42. This is a really nice aircraft to fly and it takes some of the workload away as the aircraft is very stable so your not messing around retriming all the time. Plus it has the G-1000 which is much better than chasing old needles around. Plus when you go to an airline you will not be flying old aircraft now, most modern jets are EFIS equipped.
I found this aircraft really enjoyable to fly which inturn made my IR course alot of fun and I passed first time.
Also make sure you budget for some extra Hours. For the IR I would say 2000-3000k just incase you need to practice extra ILS/NDB approaches or a retest.

There are many people that come on here and try and put people off flying but as with any profession it has its pro and cons.
These people that try to put you off are the ones that are currently flying and seem to think if nobody trains to be a pilot all their terms and conditions will suddenly improve. Theses will be the same pilots on here moaning because they are doing max hours and because their airline doesnt have enough pilots.

Theses types are a real pain to the industry because they just sit and moan and don't do anything to try and protect it. If they just clubbing together and putting pressure on their airline to improve conditions for entry level pilots they might find that their conditions would improve also, as there would be no pay to fly gang bringing the industry down.

good luck Izzarch im sure you will be fine.

[Piltdown Man]

I'm one of those pains. Listen - there are are no jobs for newbies! (A job is where you work and and your employer pays you a decent living salary). But going back to the OP's question, the answer is that it all depends. With some airlines, Human Remains will just bin your application if they see any failures whatsoever. Others only see licences. The thing you have to be happy with is flying an aircraft under pressure (in training and in a test) because you'll be under pressure all the time from now on. It won't lift until you have a few years behind you.

But what I wouldn't do is gamble away your current life for a new one which offers only the possibility of the slimmest chance of success. Consider this - you'll not only be competing with those who are younger and cleverer than you, but more importantly you'll be up against those who are more desperate than you. But don't think this all about flying. The reality is the flying is bit is rather easy. It's the rest of the job that that presents a challenge - and that's the bit you can compete with - your life experience.

But there again, jimbols6 could be right and I'm wrong... I'll wager my pilot's salary against his that I'm correct.

[maxed-out]

Younger does not always equate to being more intelligent.

What a silly comment from a 56 year old.

[taxistaxing]

I read that as saying you will be competing with those who may be younger and cleverer, but not saying they are cleverer because they're younger (one would hope) :ok:.

[jack schidt]

As a pilot of nearly 3 decades and flying for one of the most prestigious airlines in the world on the heaviest aircraft in the world, I think I should know a thing or 2! All that being said, I told my sons that being a pilot is not an option comercially in this current global screw up as a career option for them.. Get a real job, earn some real cash and go fly for fun....single engines ;-D

[Callsign Kilo]

I have worked with pilots who obtained first time passes and hold less than 200 hours flight experience. Some of decent calibre, but by in large average and in extreme cases, piss poor. First time passes mean little in today's zero to hero environment, where the increasing consensus is that people are being trained to pass tests rather than fly aeroplanes. When I set out I used to believe that passing first time was everything; it isn't! Having a good grasp of the basics and the ability to learn from your mistakes is of upmost importance. A sometimes arrogant declaration of passing everything first times holds no stock to most in the commercial world.

You appear to have faith in your flying ability and simply suffered a brain fart on the day. I'm sure you will gain your CPL next time around, unfortunately I am less certain about the condition of the industry that you aspire to become part of. Re-read HWB's and PitDown Man's posts again. They are accurate testimonies of what's important and of what can be expected.

[AMS]

Callsign Kilo - your words are so true......

It's exactly the same for ground school passes. You forever hear of first time - average passes at 97 - 99% - but then cannot answer half the atpl questions or know the theory....

So long as you have a license and can state what you learned and turn that failure into a positive - ie what you learnt from it - you will be ok - mind you will still need to perform at the selection and more importantly on the job.....