P2F PILOTS HIRED BY UAE AIRLINES ?

[stall-recovery]

Hi everyone

Simple question: Are p2f pilots (eagle jet, CFA) from Lion Air or other Asian airlines hired by airlines in the UAE ? I am talking about pilots who are above the minimum flight time requirements ?

I have heard varying opinions on this. Some say that p2f pilots from Asian airlines are not hired by major airlines in the UAE. Others say that it does not matter if you did p2f...as long as you have the hours, you will be ok.

Anyone have first hand or second hand knowledge of p2f pilots from Asia being hired by airlines in the UAE ?

Thanks everyone for your help.

[Wizofoz]

The problem you have is that you seem to imply it's simply about getting the hours.

AFAIK, with EK at least, it doesn't matter where you got you experience, you will be assessed on your abilities.

There is a relativley low pass rate for the interview, so THAT is where the QUALITY of your previous experience shows up.

So, no, just having the hours doesn't make it ok- having the hours and the ABILITY does, and if your hours have not been with Airlines that provide good training, that is probably going to be a problem.

[stall-recovery]

Thanks for the reply.

Perhaps a better question would be: Does having any p2f history at airlines like lion air mean instant rejection or would you at least be granted an interview ?

[Wizofoz]

Again, only AFAIK (and I'm not in recruiting) no, it shouldn't.

There IS a screening pre- the granting of interviews, and possibly one airline has proven to provide better candidates than others. If your ONLY experience is with Indonesian Lo-Cos and as a P2F, it probably isn't going to help, but if that is just part of your background, there isn't any "Instant blacklist".

I WOULD suggest seeking employment with an Airline known for good training if the ME is your long term goal.

[D84178]

What Wizofoz explained is that it doesn't even matter if you get an interview or not, because you will most likely fail the sim test anyway :=

Airlines want experienced pilots, but the only experience you gain from working with an asian LCC carrier is terrible CRM and bad habits that are practically impossible to break.

And the mere fact that someone consider getting himself into a P2F scam only proves he posses utterly bad judgement skill to begin with, which unfortunately is the most essential skill for doing the job properly.

And rest assured that the moment you say you've been flying for Lion Air any half-decent recruiter will look down on you because P2F is for pathetic losers :yuk:

[AP2 On Please]

D,

I know several pilots who got involved with P2F schemes in Europe several years ago who are now moving on to Emirates. These guys finished flight school during the worst days of the recession, when airline recruiting had all but vanished in Europe. These guys took (what in my mind is a very sensible decision) and realised that even the best flight school on earth only really prepares you for flying a Seneca, or Duchess, or whatever and that actual airline experience is vital. When you think of how many pilots the flight schools graduate every month, then you have to realise that every 30 days there are a hundred, if not more, freshly minted pilots who were more recently in the simulator, more recently in an exam and more recently in an airplane than you. And new pilots get ground happy in a hurry! So a few people I knew in that situation arranged for short term P2F contracts that had a chance of a permanent job at the end. They all got the contract, they all got the experience, and they have all moved on - several to Emirates. So I don't think it's fair to say that these pilots have bad judgement (a lot of their peers who refused on some moral or ethical grounds to get involved in similar arrangements are still on the ground!) And they certainly aren't pathetic losers. They did what was needed, when it was needed and it worked for them.

Now I agree there are any number of incredibly dodgy people out there running P2F operations that are barely more than a scam. I also think that P2F exists in other very thinly veiled guises - the likes of Ryanair asking people to pay for type ratings. I know there is the promise of a job afterwards, which differentiates it from other schemes where that promise isn't there, but it's an earlier stop on the same route. And I think it would be wonderful to exist in a world where the likes of BA, Lufthansa or anybody else for that matter would pay cadets to train. But let's face it, those days are long gone, and with all the good will in the world they aren't coming back.

Now to be absolutely clear, I would never suggest anybody get involved with P2F at the expense of a job where it isn't required. And I would always suggest that extreme due diligence is mandatory if somebody does go on the P2F route. But that aside I have seen it work, and I have seen it work even with companies like Emirates, who probably have the one of the widest potential talent pools to draw on in the world. If a company like EK didn't want P2F pilots working for them, I think they could cast them off and still not have a problem bringing people in to assess for them. That seems to suggest to me that at least they (I can't speak for any other UAE companies) don't mind so much where a pilot got his start, only that he has reached the level they demand by the time he gets to the door in Dubai.

To address the specific question about Lion Air, or even Asian LCCs is beyond my experience. I know LA have an extremely questionable safety record and are on the EU black list. But it's perhaps unfair to tar the entire pilot team there with the same brush of being an accident in waiting. After all, if they were all that bad there wouldn't be any Lion Air planes left to run the airline. Unfortunately for Stall Recovery I can't offer any stories about Asian P2F pilots being taken on by UAE airlines, although I can't offer any evidence to say it doesn't happen either. I think WizOfOz got it right. The history doesn't matter as much as the ability when you apply. Now if your airline has lousy training and bad practices you might develop those too and that could be a problem. But there's never been anything to say somebody has to fly at the laziest level mandated by their company.

AP2

[D84178]

I hold no grudge against you AP but let me state a few things :ok:

So a few people I knew in that situation arranged for short term P2F contracts that had a chance of a permanent job at the end. They all got the contract, they all got the experience, and they have all moved on - several to Emirates. So I don't think it's fair to say that these pilots have bad judgement (a lot of their peers who refused on some moral or ethical grounds to get involved in similar arrangements are still on the ground!) And they certainly aren't pathetic losers. They did what was needed, when it was needed and it worked for them.

You make it sound like they went straight from P2F to EK. Well let me quote another post from PPRUNE:
"A guy I know who was living in the Middle East (Indian passport holder) finished up at Lion Air a couple of months ago(Eagle Jet scheme). With his line training and one year employment he has clocked up around 1800 hours.

About two months before his contract expired he started sending out CV's and contacting agencies.
KAL-No hope as he doesn't have a 2 year college degree or better.
Hong Kong Airlines-No response
Air Hong Kong-3000 TT required (Not hiring now anyway)
SIA Cargo-No response
Qatar-Not hiring
Gulf Air-Not hiring
Safi Airways-Not enough experience (only response given)
Fly Dubai-2500 hours TT required
Yangtze River Airlines-3000 TT required
You get the idea.

He was told by one agency that most of the clients wouldn't interview someone from Lion Air. Even if they were locals and didn't pay for a job. The standard is just too low and the pilot would have to have considerable remedial training to get to a standard required by most more reputable airlines.
My friend is now worried that his 50K USD will have been wasted."

This story sums up perfectly what happen to most pilots giving the P2F route a shot. In the end they simply end up with a gigantic hole in their pocket and the disgraceful P2F on their record.
So if you are willing to take on this immense risk, risking your life and your money (or should I said daddy's money) for nothing more but a strenuous job in the sandpit and no hope of a positive change in the foreseeable future THEN you have ZERO judgment skills, let alone the judgement skills required to be in charge of passenger's life. You ought to be a professional gambler, sitting at a casino's table, not in the cockpit :=

Anyone falling for the P2F scam is a gullible loser ruining what used to be a respectable profession, there is no need to argue about this.

Now I agree there are any number of incredibly dodgy people out there running P2F operations that are barely more than a scam. And I think it would be wonderful to exist in a world where the likes of BA, Lufthansa or anybody else for that matter would pay cadets to train. But let's face it, those days are long gone, and with all the good will in the world they aren't coming back.

Circular reasoning, those days are long gone partly because you can find on the market a bunch of delusional kids eager for P2F, digging their own grave. Lion Air dare to offer P2F solely because of the hundreds if not thousands of lemmings knocking at the door, begging to whore themselves out for this revulsing scheme.



that's it, I'm outta here good luck to you OP :E

[AP2 On Please]

You can't be serious. You say you have no grudge against me and three paragraphs later you go out of your way to say, in bold face no less, that I have zero judgement and have no place in the cockpit caring for the lives of my passengers. Well I'll go hand in my license on your say so.

I gave no indication that anyone had ever walked from P2F to Emirates. In fact I said all of the pilots I mentioned had earned a contract with previous airlines and then moved on to EK. So if you're going to come after me, at least do it for something I actually said.

And I was very clear in not addressing the issue of Lion Air specifically, or even the Asian LCC issue generally. I was elaborating on something WizOfOz said about quality at the time of interview, and I did it with a history of pilots I know with a story that backs up what he said. They were P2F pilots and are now gainfully employed with Emirates. They have suffered no disbarment from Emirates because of their past, and have been treated with dignity and respect worthy of their positions. This is something I didn't see in your post, and in fact it was your comment about them being "pathetic losers" that spurred me to write in the first place. You may not agree with P2F, actually it's blinding obvious that you don't. I have my problems with it as well, as do a great many others. But it doesn't stand the laugh test to say that just because a pilot went down that route he is automatically to be classed as a lifelong no-hoper and should be derided for his decisions at every turn. If your disdain for colleagues in our industry is so high because of a decision they may have made many years ago under hugely different circumstances that you couldn't begin to understand then I won't take the time defend them and their reputations because nothing I can say will change your mind. But the Emirates recruitment department has rather made my point for me because they certainly thought these guys were worthy of the standard that had been set, so that speaks volumes about their abilities as pilots, P2F or not.

If you want to disagree, fine. If you want to deride these pilots, fine. If you want to question my judgement and call me a fool with no higher purpose than to sit at the craps table throwing dice, despite not knowing the first thing about me, that's fine too. But I think we can do without calling people pathetic losers (would you call the pilots who didn't get involved with the one or two reputable P2F schemes out there, and as a result have been sitting jobless for 3, 4, even 5 years or longer pathetic losers as well?) If you want to attack P2F then in most cases you'll get little argument from me, but you have a duty to the pilots who've been through it to judge them on their merits now, as they appear on a flight deck near you, rather than what they used to be when they signed the cheque. To say nothing of the fact you didn't know them then to begin with. And if you've known some bad ones, I've known some great ones. So don't paint everybody with the same brush.

As for circular reasoning, it may be. But I'm at a different part of the circle than you. These schemes are here to stay, for good or bad, and there is nothing we can do about it. If you can get British Airways to start paying for training of cadets again, then you'll be the darling of the flying community for a generation to come. But no accountant on the planet will pay for that, and they have far more power these days than our humble selves driving from the front. Shouting at the sky doesn't change that. So either you play in the game with the cards you're dealt, or you sit on the sidelines hoping somebody changes the rules to allow you in. If a pilot suffered through P2F and all that it entails, and came out the other side with enough sense in the cockpit to make it to a company like Emirates, then I don't care how he got there, I think he's done rather well for himself.

AP2

[menikos]

D84178 you have the right to think whatever makes you happy, let me tell you that I know guys who flew for Lion Air on the T7 now for QR, I will not mention guys flying for Emirates and so who flew for other companies as you are focusing on Lion Air, sorry for your indian friend.

:ok:

[airline man]

D84178 you do seem to have a serious grudge against lion air and P2F. Man I haven't met any lion air pilots but it is seriously unfair to generalise every pilot in the airline like that.

People come in all varieties. There may be some sincere and skilful people in lion air who haven't had any better opportunity.

Just like there may be some lazy and poor crm'd people who managed to slip into EK.

In their search for the best, I don't think that EK is the type of airline to stoop so low and grudge an entire category of pilots so you shouldn't either.

stall-recovery I wish you all the best and hope that you have applied and are up to the mark for EK. Prepare well and good luck for when they call.

:ok: