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Odai
3rd Oct 2012, 02:19
Hello,

I am a student currently working through my PPL. I was reminded of VFR guides on a recent dual cross country flight when my instructor asked if I already had the charts for the airport we were flying to.

My query relates to the appropriate use of these VFR guides (Pooleys one is often recommended to me). When would you use such a VFR guide in place of information from the AIP?

As I understand it, the AIP is the authoritative source of information, also being the most up to date (when also viewed with the relevant circulars etc).

Why would you use a VFR guide in the pre-flight planning process if there is a risk of the information being out of date or simply incorrect to start with? Why not go straight to the source? I see all kinds of ammendments being made to the AIP constantly, whereas the popular VFR guides only seem to be refreshed once a year.

Would greatly appreciate any guidance on this issue.

Thanks,

Odai.

Beethoven
3rd Oct 2012, 05:35
My understanding is that the AIP is just licensed airfields whereas Pooleys etc contain not only these but also a multitude of unlicensed fields. If you are worried about the data being out of date then many popular airfields will have a website with up to date airfield information on or at least a phone number for PPR.
For any destination my habit is to check ALL sources of information including the AIP if relevant and clear up any contradictions with a phone call if possible.

stevelup
3rd Oct 2012, 06:07
There tends to be a lot more information in the VFR guides for the visual pilot than there is in the AIP such as graphical representations of noise abatement areas and non-standard circuits.

peterh337
3rd Oct 2012, 06:26
A very good Q, with no straight answer :)

In the UK, you can just fly with Pooleys, because it is pretty accurate. It's what I do. There are two reasons it is accurate:

1) The UK AIP is of good quality, and Pooleys get the basic data from there
2) Pooleys is widely used in UK GA so errors get picked up
3) As said above, Pooleys covers unlicensed fields also

Abroad, things are a lot less good and the "pilot guide" publications, where they exist, are much more variable in quality. But then GA activity in the rest of Europe, with the exception of Germany and France, is much lower anyway.

What one consistently finds, with all aviation databases, is that their quality is related to their usage in that particular geographical area...

However I also telephone an airport I am going to, before going there, just to check they are open, have fuel, etc. Very quick and easy. Some are PPR and the phone call covers that, too.

Plan the route
Get notams
Get airport data
Phone the airport

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Oct 2012, 07:55
For any destination my habit is to check ALL sources of information
Yes. AIP (if the airfield is in there which many aren't), Pooleys (which is updated quarterly if you buy the loose-leaf version), airfield web site, and phone them first.

Pooleys has the advantage over the AIP that you can actually fit the whole book in the aircraft, thus if you have to land somewhere unplanned (as I did the other day) you've got the airfield info with you, rather than just having the charts printed out of the AIP for the planned destination and alternates.

peterh337
3rd Oct 2012, 08:23
The most important thing - anywhere in Europe - is to get the airport notams.

The AIP is updated in theory once a month, and in practice "everybody knows" that almost nobody reads it, so the first thing any airport will do when something important changes is to stick a notam into the system.

(In the UK unlicensed airports cannot issue notams, AIUI).

dublinpilot
3rd Oct 2012, 08:55
AIP should be the first source for airports that are covered.

However even for these, Pooley's can supply some additional useful info such as landing fees, availability of food close by and taxi phone numbers.

BackPacker
3rd Oct 2012, 09:08
Pooleys has the advantage over the AIP that you can actually fit the whole book in the aircraft, thus if you have to land somewhere unplanned (as I did the other day) you've got the airfield info with you, rather than just having the charts printed out of the AIP for the planned destination and alternates.

My experience too. I don't fly to the UK all that often so I don't invest in an up-to-date UK flight guide each year, but simply print the required AIP entries for my flight. I do bring my out-of-date AFE flight guide though, and it became very handy on a recent diversion to Norwich.

After all, airfield layout will hardly change from one year to the next and if you're on a diversion, ATC will expect you to have "incomplete" information. So they will offer you all the frequencies you need, progressive taxi instructions and so forth. So all you really need is a rough idea of airfield layout, reporting points and such.

For places where I do go regularly, I hand-amend an out-of-date Bottlang based on the information from the AIP. Simply because the Bottlang pages are A5 sized and fit nicely on my kneeboard, while the AIP printouts are an unwieldy A4. (Investing in a color laser printer and using some tricks to print the AIP A4 pages onto A5 would work too.)

ShyTorque
3rd Oct 2012, 10:58
Because I fly IFR where necessary, I carry a Jeppesen airways manual in the aircraft (it has a monthly update service).

However, the pages are very flimsy and easily damaged. They are also difficult to photocopy without print through from the reverse side for (I'm aware of possible copyright issues). So, if I intend to go to a large airport I often get the plates from the AIS website and print the plates in A4 size, especially the ground taxy charts.

Because I also go to small airfields and helipads I also carry the latest Pooley's VFR Flight guide. If you buy the loose leaf version, a quarterly update service is included, which I'd recommend.

I also PPR airfields, irrespective of whether it's mandatory or not, because of the nature of my job - if I need to go, it's important that I work in a highly professional way. This has proved to be a good idea on any number of occasions, when I was given essential new information that hadn't even been NOTAM'ed.

soaringhigh650
3rd Oct 2012, 13:51
I also PPR airfields, irrespective of whether it's mandatory or not, because of the nature of my job - if I need to go, it's important that I work in a highly professional way


So that's why public airports across Europe are becoming PPR.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.

Now they're thinking - that's a good idea!

Fuji Abound
3rd Oct 2012, 14:17
First time - telephone call to clarify any matters, second time probably know enough from the first visit to know whether a call is needed for any reason or not.

Whats so hard about a quick 'phone call?

dont overfil
3rd Oct 2012, 14:25
So that's why public airports across Europe are becoming PPR.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.


Not very many "public" airports in the UK. Most GA accessable airports have an ordinary licence where according to the CAA, PPR is mandatory.

It's a different world here.

D.O.

englishal
3rd Oct 2012, 14:37
Plan the route
Get notams
Get airport data
Phone the airport
These days I tend to use Skydemon for everything. I plan the route, and get the plates from their plate subscription along with glancing over the national AIP plates that SD also delivers, and then print everything out.

In fact I flew to France a few weeks ago and the whole pre-flight planning process took about 15-20 minutes. I planned the route, downloaded the notams and plates in SD, filed the flight plan from Skydemon and printed my stuff then off we went. The SD plog was within 5 minutes, the FP's were filed just fine...in fact the only slow bit was the GAR form - It would be nice if you could submit the GAR from SD as well, then life would be really easy.

I didn't phone the airport though.....

peterh337
3rd Oct 2012, 15:08
Phoning (or otherwise contacting) airports is a very variable thing...

In the UK, where they speak English (well usually ;) ) a phone call is so trivial as to not be worth worrying about.

Abroad, I am normally planning the flight some days ahead and being lazy I just shoot off faxes+emails to all published contacts (half of which will be duff anyway) and see what comes back. Take a trip like this (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/samothraki/) and you get all kinds of stuff back... a hundred lines about getting the local CAA permission to go there, perhaps. For most of France, no prior contact is needed. Germany is almost as good. N Europe as a whole is pretty good. S Europe much less so and various forms of PPR/PNR are needed.

MANY airports are Customs PNR, everywhere, and in some places (Italy, Spain, Greece, etc) the f******s will deny a landing clearance even if you are on short final when they realise.

In general, with the big H24 airports (e.g. Prague) you can just file and fly. Exceptions known to me are Gatwick, Luton, Stansted (which are 24hrs PPR but they set up their handling cartels to rip you off ~£600 which takes care of removing the "unwanted business" nicely ;) ) and various ones in S Europe.

I know there is a widespread culture among UK pilots against PPR, and indeed most cases of PPR are so obviously pointless, but really it is no big deal especially given the English phone call is so easy, and if you want to fly abroad, you can't pretend aviation is much different across the water, because it isn't.

This is for example what I got from Belgrade LYBE (and I've seen much much longer):

WE ACK & CONFIRM GROUND HANDLING, FUEL FOR FLT
xcxcxcxcxc / 19 SEP 12.

NO SLOTS REQUIRED FOR BEG
NO VHF FREQ FOR HANDLING
FOR OVERFLIGHT, LANDING PERMITS AND NAVIGATION FEES CONTACT
FLIGHT AUTHORITY DEPARTMENT
SITA: BEGTC8X, BEGOMYA E-MAIL: xcxcxcccgov.rs;
FAX + 381 11 311 7518, +381 11 2286 198, +381 11 3104879
TEL + 381 11 292 7017, +381 11 209 7808, +381 11 3104851
ALL CHARGES HAVE TO BE PAID BY CREW IN CASH
OR BY VALID CREDIT CARD (DINERS, VISA, MASTER,
AMERICAN EXPRESS (AMEX) OR EURO CARD).
FOR PAYMENT ON CREDIT (ADVANCE PAYMENT) PLEASE CONTACT OUR COMMERCIAL DEPARTMENT TO SEND YOU PRO FORMA INVOICE WITH EXPECTED CHARGES.
TEL/FAX + 381 11 2286125, + 381 11 2286 188, +381112094844 MR. M. VUJADINOVIC
e-mail: xcxcxcxcxcx
OVER COLLECTIONS WILL BE REFUNDED AND UNDER COLLECTIONS WILL BE INVOICED, ADDITIONALLY.
THIS IS LINK FOR PRICE LISTS
Aerodrom Nikola Tesla | Price Lists (http://www.beg.aero/about_us/price_lists.157.html)
IN ARR/ DEP YOUR PAX AND CREW WILL USE GENERAL AVIATION TERMINAL !
GENERAL AVIATION TERMINAL WORKING TIME: 07:00-21:00 LT / 0500 - 1900 UTC
FUEL SUPPLIER NAME :

NIS JUGOPETROL TEL +381 11 311 1426, +381 11 311 9488, + 381 11 209 7023
FAX: + 381 11 2286 378, PRICE IS 2, 26614 USDOL/ KG
CARNETS: Jeppesen World Fuel Services Card, Avcard,
US Government AIR card, OR CREDIT CARDS

NB. APROX PRICE FOR HANDLING FOR 1 DAY PARKING AND 1 PX IN DEP IS:
Infrastructure: 18.00 EUR
Handling: 30.00 EUR
Landing: 12.00 EUR
Parking: 3.60 EUR
Lighting: EUR
Use of air bridge: EUR
PAX TAX: 16.50 EUR
Security TAX: 3.30 EUR
DCS: EUR
Cute: EUR
Royality PAX TAX: 0.98 EUR
Royality Cargo TAX: 0.00 EUR
GAT PAX TAX: 15.00 EUR


Total: 99.38 EUR


Airport Nikola Tesla JSC Belgrade
Flight Coordination D Mandic
Tel: +381 11 209 7345
Fax: +381 11 2286 500
SITA: BEGOWXH; BEGAPXH
E-mail: cxcxcxcxcxcx

The bits in bold are particularly relevant :)

OTOH, you never know, maybe you can ignore all that and just file the flight plan and turn up at the IAF... A lot of pilots do that and don't exactly post all over the internet when they didn't get away with it :) But, to paraphrase C Eastwood, do you feel lucky, to turn up with 2hrs' fuel and be told to s0d off, and the nearest airport is over a few little hills (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/samothraki/fyrom-big.jpg)?

piperarcher
3rd Oct 2012, 17:42
For me the Pooleys VFR plates are well presented and fit nicely into an A5 plastic sleeve which I can use on my kneeboard. Besides the other reasons already mentioned, printing off the AIP plates onto A5 leaves a large print border and makes it hard to read some of the information. Also, Pooleys give a whole load of other information which you can keep with you in the plane (LARS coverage with times and days of station availability. It also has guidance on flying to France, Channel Islands etc, and things line sunset times. All quite handy as a reference and for flight planning.

Also, if you subscribe to Pooleys, they will send updated plates for free when they change.

rgsaero
3rd Oct 2012, 18:15
And in France - Delage. An excellent guide which has everything you may need, especially if you end where you didn't plan to be!

ShyTorque
3rd Oct 2012, 19:23
So that's why public airports across Europe are becoming PPR.
Because of eager pilots phoning thinking it is polite.

It's got nothing to do with politeness (or how things are done on the other side of the Atlantic :rolleyes:). We're not joy-riding here.

It's all to do with making sure the plan works on the day, without any stupid hold-ups, so that my passengers can be provided with a professional, efficient service, which they fully expect.

Flyingmac
5th Oct 2012, 09:55
The OP said, "I am a student currently working through my PPL. "

Get the AFE VFR flight guide. It has all of the airfields listed in Pooley's plus over a hundred more.

Get some informed advice regarding the use of SkyDemon.

Good luck with your training.:ok:

soaringhigh650
5th Oct 2012, 10:09
without any stupid hold-ups

It is a terribly poor state of affairs if an airport has to hold up a flight because they think they have not "PPRed".

mm_flynn
5th Oct 2012, 10:44
It is a terribly poor state of affairs if an airport has to hold up a flight because they think they have not "PPRed".


I suspect ShyTorque is concerned about landing, first time, right next to the waiting car so the PAX steps out of the helicopter, into a car and goes directly out of the airport to their destination. Not so much about getting faffed around in the air.

soaringhigh650
5th Oct 2012, 11:01
Ok, but as peter says:

The bits in bold are particularly relevant. OTOH, you never know, maybe you can ignore all that and just file the flight plan and turn up at the IAF... do you feel lucky, to turn up with 2hrs' fuel and be told to s0d off, and the nearest airport is over a few little hills?

That sounds like stupid admin work to me. Just declare Mayday and land. The public use airport obviously has no clue about general aviation.

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 11:17
It is a terribly poor state of affairs if an airport has to hold up a flight because they think they have not "PPRed".

You maybe missed my last post. If it is not a public airport it is a legal requirement.

If it is a public airport it would be good to know in advance that the landing fee will now require a mortgage!

There is a whole world outside the USA.

To answer the OP my vote goes to Pooleys. There is just so much info and of course the man himself is such a gent.:ok:

D.O.

soaringhigh650
5th Oct 2012, 11:32
There is a whole world outside the USA.

Maybe. But all of the world's GA movements combined doesn't even come anywhere close to ours. I wonder why. :}

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 11:51
Maybe. But all of the world's GA movements combined doesn't even come anywhere close to ours. I wonder why. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Ah! Maybe so. But in the UK we have one government employee for every citizen and in Europe one EASA employee for every pilot.:)

D.O.

peterh337
5th Oct 2012, 13:10
The concept of "public use" doesn't really exist in Europe.

Some French airports are owned by the local authority (the Chamber of Commerce, etc) and in the UK a small number are. But most are on private land and if they put up a rule saying you have to wear pink underpants to fly there, they are entitled to do that.

A lot of PPR in the UK is a nod to the conditions for getting the planning permission.

This has been done to death on all the UK forums but IMHO the only really objectionable situation is where "PPR by telephone" is insisted on - which is self evidently a complete farce when you realise you can get a satellite phone for about £300 from Ebay and make the "phone call" with that. No airfield should require PPR by phone only. Obviously they can always turn away traffic which just turns up, for a good reason, but they should not turn away traffic for no reason, only because they did not get PPR. However many airports in Europe will refuse a landing clearance if you didn't get PPR...

In the UK, to some degree it depends on the type of CAA license. If the airport is on a "public license" (e.g. Shoreham) they cannot turn away (refuse a landing clearance to) people selectively. If it is a "non public license" (e.g. Goodwood, AFAIK) they can turn away people they don't like (the extra complication is that Goodwood is not ATC and the FISO could not refuse a landing other than by passing a message "on behalf of the airport owner I am not allowing you to land").

It's not a satisfactory situation but that is what we have here in Europe, and we have to make the best of it.

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 14:49
This has been done to death on all the UK forums but IMHO the only really objectionable situation is where "PPR by telephone" is insisted on -

Hi Peter,
In some cases and at some times this would seem pointless.

The reason phone (or on line with contact details) is insisted at my local field is:-
a) PPR by radio is not always possible as there is breaks in cover.
b) Three runways sometimes all being used.
c) The CAA want it recorded.
d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.
e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).
f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.

D.O.

Fuji Abound
5th Oct 2012, 14:56
To be fair, I have very rarely found this a problem in the UK.

Duxford were notorious about requiring PPR in advance, Blackbushe and Elstree could be prickly but that was about the extent of it - doubtless there are a few others that are well known.

I famously recall passing Duxford once and thinking a coffee and a quick visit would be pleasant as clearly nothing was going on. Of course we hadn't PPRed and told them so. From 1,000 feet a telehone call is often not too much of a problem - did we 'phone them and end up with our coffee, well if we did it rather demonstrates what a complete nonsense this is. ;)

Mind you I do know of one airfield (which I am not going to name) which is PPR but in reality only PPR for one small group of individuals which will always be refused permission - everyone else is welcome.

Fuji Abound
5th Oct 2012, 15:04
dont overfil

- sure, but playing devils advocate;

- in which case say in the flight guides, AIP, no radio, no landing (other then in an emergency when you cant refuse a landing anyway),

- plenty of places use multiple runways, why cant the pilot be told over the radio multiple runways in use - if he had been told over the 'phone what difference would it really make,

- why, are you suggesting the CAA will only licence (assuming it is licensed) the field if PPR is ONLY by 'phone, what is the difference with PPR over the radio?

- if its not in the flight guides then well worth having it included I agree but that shouldnt be too difficult and could end up simply being a convenient excuse,

- I very much doubt you actually want to accept the responsibility of reporting someone missing because they didnt arrive - that could be a very dangerous game indeed,

- but that is true of anywhere and any airport.

soaringhigh650
5th Oct 2012, 15:11
The reason phone (or on line with contact details) is insisted at my local field is:-

Sorry but this is all trash.

a) PPR by radio is not always possible as there is breaks in cover.

Then fly higher. Airplanes don't fly by radio waves. Transmit above the mountain, not in the next valley.

b) Three runways sometimes all being used.

Get the info from the ATIS, or ATC or from other pilots. Look out the window.

c) The CAA want it recorded.

Get the recordings from the radio transmissions.

d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.

NOTAM.

e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).

File a Flight Plan

f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.

Get a PPL.

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 15:42
- in which case say in the flight guides, AIP, no radio, no landing (other then in an emergency when you cant refuse a landing anyway),


The airfield is notified no non radio AC. Exceptions have been made. What I meant was the airfield radio may not be manned 100%. Aircraft transmissions are made blind at these times for others benefit but PPR by radio would not be possible.
- plenty of places use multiple runways, why cant the pilot be told over the radio multiple runways in use - if he had been told over the 'phone what difference would it really make,


Decisions on the usability of the grass areas are made in the morning often too late for a visitor to get notam info.
- why, are you suggesting the CAA will only licence (assuming it is licensed) the field if PPR is ONLY by 'phone, what is the difference with PPR over the radio?


Radio may not be manned.
- if its not in the flight guides then well worth having it included I agree but that shouldnt be too difficult and could end up simply being a convenient excuse,


Safety info for the AIRAC cycle is notamed for three months before being included. Only then will the flight guides put it in their updates. If you are not a subscriber you will not see the updates untill the next issue.
- I very much doubt you actually want to accept the responsibility of reporting someone missing because they didnt arrive - that could be a very dangerous game indeed,


Not at all. never a week goes by without at least one PPR not appearing or one sortie landing away without notice. It thankfully is usually sorted with a couple of phone calls. That is the principle part of my job.

Sorry. I can't type as fast as you guys.

D.O.

peterh337
5th Oct 2012, 15:53
a) PPR by radio is not always possible as there is breaks in cover.
b) Three runways sometimes all being used.
c) The CAA want it recorded.
d) Safety info not yet in the flight guides.
e) If we don't know you're coming we don't know you're missing. (Inhospitable terrain).
f) For those who are incapable of self briefing.

c) is most interesting..... why would the CAA insist on PPR?

d) is most curious too; I have never heard of the CAA even acknowledging the existence of flight guides :)

I do like f) but why not get all proposed visitors to fax you a copy of their PPL? :E

I see where you are coming from but isn't it a sad state of affairs that somebody feels the need to explain to a pilot how to land a plane? In fact if I was looking at this legally the last thing I would want to get involved with is a mandatory safety briefing because it implies that the airfield is in some way unreasonably dangerous. What if the pilot asks if there are potholes, you say No, and he goes into one and goes after you for the £20k?

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 15:56
Sorry but this is all trash.


Law.
Then fly higher. Airplanes don't fly by radio waves. Transmit above the mountain, not in the next valley.


Read again what I said.
Get the info from the ATIS, or ATC or from other pilots. Look out the window.
No ATC No ATIS Different world.
Get the recordings from the radio transmissions
No recordings. Different world.
NOTAM.


Explained in my last post.
File a Flight Plan


VFR Filight plans are not acted upon in UK. Crucially people seldom put contact numbers on then or POB.

Sorry to be blunt here Soaring but you don't seem to know what aviation is like here in the UK.

I have flown every year for the past 18 years in the USA. I know it's great but as I've said it's a.......

D.O.
Edited: Getting my next and last mixed up.

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 16:05
why would the CAA insist on PPR?


I don't have the energy to dig it out just now but it is somewhere in CAP168.

It is enough of an issue to make my employer buy an on line system for a visitor to complete. If they don't then I must.

The pub's open now so I'm off!

D.O.

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 16:29
d) is most curious too; I have never heard of the CAA even acknowledging the existence of flight guides http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


Maybe a misunderstanding.

There's a chance that 60% of pilots will read a Pooleys or VFR guide. I doubt if 10% read the AIP. By the time it comes out in the flight guide a year could have passed before the info trickles through.

Example.
An issue was discovered in February 2012. A 933 form was submitted and the issue results in a notam only until the next AIRAC cycle. Notam disappears in July because it is now in the updated AIC. Pooleys put it in their subscribed updates to appear immediately. It will then appear in their
2013 issue which most tight wads will not see untill one is discarded in 2014.

Pub calls:)
D.O.

peterh337
5th Oct 2012, 18:01
There's a chance that 60% of pilots will read a Pooleys or VFR guide. I doubt if 10% read the AIP. By the time it comes out in the flight guide a year could have passed before the info trickles through.

I don't disagree ;)

But what kind of information are you talking about which is so critical that it could not be passed on (or become obvious on) the first radio call?

There is a broader point here. Greece, for example, has not had an online AIP until very recently, and the printed one was full of outdated crap, so the airports permanently notam important stuff like opening hours. Why can't the UK do that? Everybody knows that almost nobody reads the AIP.

flybymike
5th Oct 2012, 19:50
Peter you are surely not suggesting more NOTAM crap to clog up all our downloads! :eek:

dont overfil
5th Oct 2012, 21:14
Peter,
Radio not always manned. Neighbouring airfield instrument approach in class G can encroach on circuit traffic.

D.O.

dublinpilot
5th Oct 2012, 22:05
While it would be nice not to have to bother with PPR, I really don't have a problem with it most of the time. The only times it annoys me is when an airport insists on PPR, but then doesn't answer their phone for days on end!

dublinpilot
5th Oct 2012, 22:09
It is enough of an issue to make my employer buy an on line system for a visitor to complete. If they don't then I must.

An online PPR system? I wish more airports would do this.

You log onto their website, read the predetermined briefing and any supplements for today, and then enter your details as confirmation of receiving the briefing. Then you have PPR.

It would allow people to PPR after closing hours for a flight early the next day, and you would never need to be able to get through to anyone on the phone.

dp

ShyTorque
5th Oct 2012, 22:29
I suspect ShyTorque is concerned about landing, first time, right next to the waiting car so the PAX steps out of the helicopter, into a car and goes directly out of the airport to their destination. Not so much about getting faffed around in the air.

Yes, of course I was, thanks for providing subtitles for the hard of hearing. :)

From experience, doing the bare minimum required by law doesn't always work this side of the Atlantic, for a variety of reasons.

A phone call takes a couple of minutes. I've never been taken to task for sorting my life out in advance by phone, by those that matter, let alone from across the Atlantic by someone who obviously doesn't understand our system.

I think some folk just have a need to try to belittle others. :rolleyes:

peterh337
6th Oct 2012, 07:11
Peter you are surely not suggesting more NOTAM crap to clog up all our downloads

Yes actually I am :)

It would be great to have airport opening hours permanently notamed.

For some strange reason I never had problems reading notams.

dublinpilot
6th Oct 2012, 16:57
Well some might think PPR is useless, but today it proved very useful to me.

Last night I planned a flight from Dublin to Glenforsa. I'd need to get some fuel for the return trip, and the only place to get that in that area on a Saturday afternoon is Oban.

So I submitted my GAR to customs and special branch giving the required 12 hours notice showing an arrival into the UK in Oban and a departure from the UK at Glenforsa.

This morning I rang for PPR. No problem with Oban, but Glenforsa is closed because of the accident there a few weeks ago.

As Glenforsa is not an AIP airport, it's not in the NOTAM system, so the only way to find out about it being closed is to call for PPR.

If I hadn't done PPR, I would have arrived in Oban, but would have been unable to get into Glenforsa (either because I couldn't contact them, or perhaps the damaged aircraft is still overturned on the runway there).

Now here is the clencher. If I can't get into Glenforsa, I need to return to Ireland from another airport. But in order to do so I need to give 12 hours notice to the police! So basically I'd have to wait around until Sunday, and hope the weather was still flyable (doesn't look too good) or use a more expensive designated airport such as Glasgow or Prestwick so I could leave without notice.

You might think that UK authorities would be accomodating to a return from Oban given that the the arrival there was notified and that it's the same police force as Glenforsa, but you'd be incorrect. At least they were unwilling to allow such a change when asking in advance.

I'm certainly glad that I PPR'd. Otherwise I'd be in Oban praying that he weather was ok for a return flight tomorrow.

dp

peterh337
6th Oct 2012, 21:41
Yes; I too usually contact airports beforehand, and in general (Europe as a whole) it is highly desirable to do so.

One discovers all kinds of interesting things :)

It is the unfortunate formalisation of "a really smart thing for the pilot to do" into a "prior permission required by the airport and if you don't obtain it they might refuse a landing clearance, even if there is no reason for it" that gets up peoples' noses.

Aviation already has plenty of empire building and job creation schemes :)

flybymike
6th Oct 2012, 23:16
I'm a bit baffled as to why the runway should still be blocked at Glenforsa. Wasn't it just C150 or something that flipped over? A couple of people could drag that away in no time at all.

dublinpilot
7th Oct 2012, 09:28
I looked on the webcam. It doesn't seem to be still on the runway. Perhaps the council decided to close the airport until the investigators finish their work. Or perhaps the overturn caused dangerous ruts in the ground that need to be prepared.

Whatever the reason, it's still closed unfortunately. :{

dont overfil
7th Oct 2012, 21:21
I flew over today. The aircraft is well clear of the runway. In fact it seems the accident was south of the runway.

Why the airfield is still closed makes no sense. It would seem that A&BC don't put any value on their asset or they just don't know what to do.

D.O.