What's The Best Allied Aircraft That Didn't Go To War?

[dat581]

After seeing too many documentaries about advanced late Second World War German aircraft that always tried give the impression that they were way ahead of allied designs, I don't believe this myself so I thought I would ask the learned gentlemen from this forum; Which was the best Allied aircraft that either entered service post war or never entered service at all?

I'd put my money on the de Havilland Hornet / Sea Hornet.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'd say the de Havilland Hornet is a good shout.

The Hawker Sea Fury could quite possibly be in there too.

[ORAC]

Vampire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire) - entered service but never saw combat. Served as a front line fighter until 1953 and a trainer until 1966, which was a long service life in those days.

[Pontius Navigator]

dat, maybe you should narrow the criteria, either a a first flew before the war ended or first entered service before the war ended.

One contender would by the Lincoln with a considerably higher ceiling than the Lancaster albeit not in the same class at the B29.

How about the Lockeed Neptune in service for almost 40 years.

[dat581]

Ok, how about fighter or fighter bomber that did enter service during or after the war but did not get near the enemy.

[Craven Moorhed]

Tornado F3?

"taxi!!"

[The Helpful Stacker]

"taxi!!"

On so many levels.

[Bigpants]

English Electric Lightning, all Mks.

World Class Performance in the 1960s, still going well in the 1970s, obsolete by the 1980s but still doing its best to defend UK plc until 1987.

But was the "Cold War" a real war? It was in many respects a real event which produced a steady stream of losses every year as training and ops took there toll.

OK thread creep sorry

[BEagle]

Which was the best Allied aircraft that either entered service post war or never entered service at all?

This:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/TSR2.jpg

Murdered by Earl Mountbottom and also by the Communists of the 1965 Labour government.....:yuk:

[dat581]

Ok and designed during the Second World War!

BEagle

The RAF got their revenge with the cancelation of CVA 01 but that argument is a whole thread all by itself!

[sandiego89]

Hmm, "after the war" is rather broad, but keeping it those that were flying in 1945 there are several good fighter/fighter bomber contenders that almost made it into the war:

Sea/Hornet, Vampire and Sea Fury as mentioned
Bearcat- on it's way to Japan on VJ day
P-80 Shooting Star made it to Italy and England, but did not see combat

Arguments could be made for all of the above. "Best" is subjective.

[dead_pan]

This:

It was only a matter of time before the ol' TSR2 chestnut got its obligatory mention. I wonder what would have happened had it entered service? Would it have lived up to its considerable billing, or would we all have been whingeing about its numerous faults and shortcomings (unreliable, short range, unmanoeuvrable etc), compared to what else was on offer at the time?

[airborne_artist]

The Sea Fury did of course go to war:

Hawker Sea Fury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Sea_Fury#Korean_War)

[ORAC]

The of course, there was The Spruce Goose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-4_Hercules)

g5birRnnpUM

[Wensleydale]

One contender would by the Lincoln


The Lincoln saw service (ie dropped bombs in anger) during Op Firedog (Malaya) and in Kenya. Unless insurgency does not count......

[Trim Stab]

I am surprised this thread has got to ten posts without mention of the Wiggins Aerodyne...

[tornadoken]

OP intended discussion of types funded by VJ Day. He's so right that there were as remarkable a range as in the Luftwaffe Secret Projects books. So, in US, B-36 was underway, B-32 Dominator was in a get-well phase, both to be targeted by Republic XF-12 Rainbow, and supported by transport gargantuans Mars, Constitution, C-99.

UK programmes, additional to those noted already, included Spiteful/Seafang, Wyvern, Sturgeon, Spearfish, Firebrand, Shetland, SR/A.1, Windsor.

My A to OP Q: Bearcat +(Sea) Hornet; Lincoln + (in European/Mediterranean Theatres: ) B-29. That lot, even without Fat Man, would have concentrated German minds.

[Wensleydale]

I am surprised this thread has got to ten posts without mention of the
Wiggins Aerodyne...


Or the Cavendish Hopper..... Reach for the Sky?

[SCAFITE]

Douglas A1 Skyraider, Designed and built and flown during WW2 but just too late to see combat, but sure did fight in almost every outing from then until the 1970s, and served on until the early 80s in some air arms.

Ordered by the US Navy in 1944, first flight in March 1945, in service 1946.

Douglas A-1 Skyraider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-1_Skyraider)

[airborne_artist]

I am surprised this thread has got to ten posts without mention of the Wiggins Aerodyne...

I think you'll find that the Wiggins Aerodyne has been used extensively in support of 24SAS and 49Para operations.

[mlc]

Martin Baker MB5.

[NutLoose]

Ditto... Was just going to add that.

[soddim]

Both the Lightning and the Tornado F3 went to war. The Lightning in Yemen with the Saudis and the Tornado F3 in the Gulf War.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

B-32 Dominator was in a get-well phase


...but did manage to fly several combat missions prior to VJ-Day. One B-32 also managed to be shot at (but not shot down) by some diehard Japs tooling around in some 'Georges' after VJ-Day!


advanced late Second World War German aircraft that...were way ahead of allied designs, I don't believe this myself


Just out of interest, which Allied aircraft were comparable to the Me 262, Ar 234C, Me 263, Go 229, Bv 238, Ta 152C/H etc? All these aircraft flew (Me 263 as an unpowered prototype only), and some flew combat sorties.

[rats404]

I think you'll find that the Wiggins Aerodyne has been used extensively in support of 24SAS and 49Para operations.

OPSEC, AA, OPSEC... ;)

[Rosevidney1]

The Martin Baker MB5 in my not so humble opinion. ;)

[con-pilot]

Another one was the Grumman F-7F Tigercat.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c246/con-pilot/300px-F7F-3P_Tigercat.jpg

[SASless]

I would vote for the Republic Super Thunderbolt.....amongst a few others.

US experimental aircraft during WW2 - YouTube

[Courtney Mil]

Good one, SASless.

I have to feel sorry for Curtiss. So many attempts that never made it in that video.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Just out of interest, which Allied aircraft were comparable to the Me 262..
In post war tests the Me262 was considered superior to the Allied jet types. But against that the allied pilots were better trained and their jets more reliable and better built.

Its a tribute to the British Aircraft industry that it was never outclassed by the potentially larger German Aircraft Industry.

[brokenlink]

Alongside the MB5 what about the Supermarine Spiteful?

[Pontius Navigator]

Not aircraft but submarines but indicative to the problems Germany had.

A friend was passage crew on some Germany submarines being ferried to Russia as part of the spoilts of war. The valves had to manipulated everyday to stop them seizing up for they were not made of brass as allied submarines were.

Shortage of rare metals probably did for much German production.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Its a tribute to the British Aircraft industry that it was never outclassed by the potentially larger German Aircraft Industry.

Considering that the British aircraft industry didn't have the significant disadvantage of bombs raining down upon it for the last four years of the war, one might say that the British aircraft industry should have been streets ahead of the German, rather than just 'never outclassed by'...

[500N]

Torque

That is an interesting point !

And could also be said about the US industry although
they seemed to be into pumping out the planes as fast as
they could once they found something that worked.

[ORAC]

they seemed to be into pumping out the planes as fast as
they could once they found something that worked Quantity has a quality all of it's own.

[500N]

Agree, when it came to dropping thousands of dumb bombs from 1000 planes at once, you don't need the top of the range to do it.

[Squirrel 41]

I would've plumped for MB5, dH Hornet, XF-12 Rainbow (surely one of the most beautiful designs), HK-1 Spruce Goose, but one not mentioned so far is Hughes XF-11, which I always thought could have been if it had been fully developed.

S41

[AGS Man]

I'm gonna jump back to between the wars and suggest the Hawker Fury or Bristol Bulldog

[vascodegama]

Didn't the Vampire see action in the Rhodesian civil war?

[AngloPepper]

....more prosaic but very practical. I give you the Bristol Brigand.

[Wensleydale]

....more prosaic but very practical. I give you the Bristol Brigand.


Used in air policing operations in Aden......

[cribble]

Indeed, the Vampire saw service in Rhodesia; not in a civil war but in counter-terrorist ops, until foreign interference prevailed.

Now the country is a model of democracy. I am sure the said interfering state is proud.

[Wholigan]

And the Vampire also saw operations with the Egyptian Air Force against Israel and with the Indian Air Force against Pakistan.

[Whenurhappy]

The talk of the supposedly superior German aviation industry is just that...talk. The Reichs Luftministrie (RLM) could hardly organise a Fest/coup in a Bierkeller and the concept of dispersion/shadow factories/underground facilties wasn't appreciated until c 1943, when the RAF and USAAF 'Hard Rain' made life difficult for the Luftwaffe and supporting industries. According to Speer, 'less than 2%' of aircraft production was moved into hardened or dispersed facilities and the CBO made movement of materials, aircraft and fuel problematic, to say the least. Near where I was based recently, there were 'factories' scattered in the forests and in the hills - small wooden huts, benches, vices, perhaps some electric power - producing Jumo engine components & ME 262 airframe component, by hand. QC - nul!

Yes, those pesky Nazis did develop some extremly innovative aircraft, but they were then exploited out of desperation and with immense political pressure (such as the direction to develop the ME 262 as a fighter-bomber - largely cheerfully ignored by the Luftwaffe) that they had almost no effect on the outcome of the war.

Here's an extract for a SLT 'away day' a couple of years ago on the German aircraft and weapons programme:

Key Lesson: Although emerging technologies, most clearly demonstrated by the potential of the ME 262, worried the Allied intelligence community, their operational and tactical impact had no lasting effect and the ac were no subsititute to sufficient 'conventional' platforms in the hands of well-trained and experienced crews. In sum, new technologies delivered too few, too late.
But I have to agree, the ME 262 is the sexiest wartime aircraft - I was looking over one at the Deutsche Museum iN Munich a few weeks ago.


WP

[Pontius Navigator]

Saunders Roe SR177? Bristol 188?

And therein the demise of the British aircraft industry? A beautiful flying boat and a supersonic rocket fighter. A huge 6-engined transport and a supersonic research aircraft.

Vickers with bombers, fighters and transports. De Haviland with a jet transport and fighters.

Armstrong Whitworth with a wheel barrow.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Bristol Brigand


Quite apart from Wensleydale's point about Aden (I think it was actually the Malayan Emergency), this aircraft was (according to people who flew it) terrible. I quote a Brigand pilot: "My navigator used to refer to the kite as the 'black bastard' (NB the aircraft in the Far East had the mostly-black-with-white-top surfaces paint scheme, as designed for the Tiger Force) and I tended to agree with him". I can't remember the full account as I don't have the book in front of me, but the over-riding impression was that the aircraft had numerous vices and few redeeming features. Wikipedia states that the problems included air brake failures leading to structural failures, propeller blades shedding and hydraulic fires caused by heat from the cannon being fired..."In effect, the Brigands were shooting themselves down".


The talk of the supposedly superior German aviation industry is just that...talk


Noone would deny the stupidity which abounded in the corridors of the RLM, but the people involved in designing and building aircraft worked wonders despite the incompetence on high (or perhaps the uselessness of the RLM made it easier, because the industry didn't waste any time listening to them). Despite all the difficulties, the German aircraft industry delivered ever-increasing numbers of aircraft to the Luftwaffe, and quality control - while perhaps not ideal - was never a major problem in the way that it was in Japan in the last year of the war. The remarkable output of new aircraft only slowed when Allied and Soviet troops began over-running the factories in early 1945.

[Andu]

Didn't the Vampire see action in the Rhodesian civil war?Some of the Rhodesian Vampires' 20mm Hispanos saw service mounted laterally on the floors of Alouettes. A sort of Rhodesian rotary wing Puff the Magic Dragon..

[Wensleydale]

Wensleydale's point about Aden (I think it was actually the Malayan Emergency)

Brigands equipped No 8 Sqn (Aden's Own) and was used on ops in the region. The attached photo shows the arrival of the Sqn's first Brigand which was written off after an argument with the radio mast behind SHQ at Khormaksar.

I do concur that it was not well liked - as was the Buckmaster that was used for training and communications at the same time.

http://8squadron.co.uk/history_images/brigand_prang.jpg

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Brigands equipped No 8 Sqn (Aden's Own) and was used on ops in the region


Oops, sorry!

[hval]

TorqueOfTheDevil,

You are not incorrect. The Brigand was also used in Singapore/ Malaya. 45 Sqn & 84 Sqn.

[Rosevidney1]

Indeed it did - as did anything able to fly.

[air pig]

What about the Sea Vixen, only action as far as I know was bombing the Torrey Canyon off Cornwall in 1967 or the Seahawk by A W

[cuefaye]

air pig

I think the Torrey Canyon was attended to By Buccaneers and Hunters - no Sea Vixens involved?

[air pig]

I stand corrected about the Torrey canyon, but did the sea vixen take part in any actions/

For a sexy World War 2 aircraft both of which were operational, either the He 219 Owl or the Arado 234 2 and 4 engined jet bombers

[Buster Hyman]

CAAC Mustang. The ultimate refinement of the P51.

[RAFEngO74to09]

According to these, Sea Vixens were used to attack the Torrey Canyon.

Sinking of the Torrey Canyon (http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/torreycn.htm)

Torrey Canyon - Scillonian History (http://history.scillyarchive.com/marine-disasters/torrey-canyon)

[Pontius Navigator]

Sea Vixens also used in Confrontation although no shots fire AFAIK.

Now the companion thread might be the worst . . .

How about the Argosy C1 bomber variant :)

[BEagle]

Saunders Roe SR177? Bristol 188?

SR177 never flew.

Bristol T188 was useless even as a research aircraft. According to a colleague who was involved in the programme, by the time it had reached altitude and set up for a test run, there was barely time for a single test point before it had to come home on fumes.... 260KIAS take-off speed with about 20-25 min endurance, it could only manage about 2 minutes at M2.0. Looked nice though:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/BristolT188.jpg

[ARXW]

back to the question

:rolleyes:

F8F Bearcat. Hello????

http://www.taphilo.com/photo/pictures/Bearcat/F8F-Bearcat-03.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

SR177 never flew.

Made the model though. Tail heavy wouldn't sit on its nose-wheel.

[Bob Viking]

I know nothing of it's capabilities but, let's be honest, it looks like it was designed by a 3 year old with a handful of crayons. In fact, I'm pretty sure my 3 year old came up with something similar last week. Does that mean he's guilty of copyright infringement?!
BV:oh:

[TEEEJ]

ARXW,

The F8F Bearcat saw combat in Indochina. French Air Force and later served with the Vietnamese.

Grumman F8F Bearcat - French Wings Over Indochina Gallery (http://www.frenchwings.net/indochina/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=9)

[Buster Hyman]

Sorry... I meant the CAC CA-15 Kangaroo (Mustang variant).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/CA-15.jpg

[Nuuumannn]

DH Hornet, Martin Baker MB.5 and CA-15;

The latter a bruiser of an aeroplane that had a rather lengthy development phase, hence its late arrival. Although it was originally based on the CAC Boomerang, not the Mustang, even though it looks like one. In its original configuration it was to be powered by a turbocharged P&W 2800, like the P-47, then a Centaurus, but it ended up with a Griffon.

[LowObservable]

PN - The model was an SR53. My first Airfix...

[ARXW]

TEEJ,

correct that...it's just that the wording of this topic was "Allied aircraft" which I took to mean WW2-only....in that sense then yes F8F would qualify IMO for anything up to 1945!

It may look purposely like a toy...in fact you can see it's the same sort of genre as the MB5 with same or similar speed and much higher rate of climb (significantly lighter) and of course the engine is the favoured USN air cooled radial (P&W?) instead of the liquid cooled inline V(?) RR.