Gulfstream II

[biocybertronics]

Well times are good, and we have recently been in the position to purchase a corporate jet.

Something that when I founded the company I never dreamed of being able to do.

Now I have been in talks with a broker with a Gulfstream II for sale, now I admit I know very little about these planes other than the research I have carried out myself.

And have found out that they might be banned from operating in the US and Europe, first how true is this?

I admit the interior looks very dated and we have got a quote to have it all ripped out and rebuilt to our specs, and although the exterior paint was only done 3 years ago we are looking to have it repainted in company colors etc.

So as for that side we have it covered.

As for usage. We operate in a number of countries and travel throughout the US, as well as England predominantly.

Therefore we have been looking at a jet that has the range to do Washington D.C to Birmingham, England.

As well as many cities in the US, typically Washington to Salt Lake City.

We would hire our own pilots, though we are not sure about a flight attendant, (is this required by law) As it will be staff flying therefore they can get their own food and drinks if required.

So basically does anyone have experience with this plane, and trans Atlantic travel, and is the ban true?

Any other advice would be great.

[PLovett]

May I respectfully suggest that you hire a reputable aviation consultant before committing any hard earned cash to what is now a very dated jet with considerable costs associated to them. They will save you a lot of money in the long term.

Noise is only one factor to be considered. The costs associated with running 2 x RR Spey engines can make the eyes water, let alone the wallet. Old aircraft become maintenance hogs. Another factor is whether your proposed G11 is RVSM compliant. If not expect to spend more money making it compliant for European and US airspace or spend heaps more in fuel burn by being kept low all the time.

[captainmorgan888]

PL. Is right, the G2 is a great aircraft, but it's time is over I'm afraid - I would compair it with driving a 70's Lincoln Continental....

[Gulfstreamaviator]

With respect, a G4SP, G450, G550 will do the job, and not require ear plug inplants, or a fuel tanker escort.

This was a regular run for me, and G4SP was OK....

PM if more details required, but a good broker / consultant is recomended.

I do know one G450 just on the market..Interior is 'different' but good value.

glf

[biocybertronics]

Are they really that noisey inside?

Could anyone recommend any aviation consultant, and I will enquire today if it is RVSM compliant.

[Savoia]

Bio: Have to agree with Lovett and Capt. Morgan, the GII is now a museum piece (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2095698/A-tribute-son-John-Travolta-donates-plane-museum-memory-tragic-Jett.html).

Yes you can pick them up quite literally for free these days but .. they are one of the most expensive business jets in the world to operate and .. as has been mentioned, have a number of operating restrictions.

If capital outlay is an issue then perhaps consider one of the NetJets programmes (http://www.netjets.com/Programs/).

[con-pilot]

First off, what price range are you budgeting?

[con-pilot]

Please check your personal messages.

Thank you.

[galaxy flyer]

To play off GLF, used Challenger 604s are reasonably priced, modern, and will do your job.

GF

[biocybertronics]

PLovett, I checked with them and it is already RVSM compliant, which I am guessing is a big plus.

Its not so much the intinal outlay just the ability because of the cost to customlise in inside and outside due to the saving.

I realsie the cost will be quite high, but as we are doing around 450 hours a year flying for at least 4 people at time, I am sure the costs will come in line with what we are spending on Business class alone.

[biocybertronics]

I have also been told there are hush kits, is this true and do they make a difference?

I might shelf the idea for several years until we can afford the outlay for a more modern jet.

[g4phil]

PM me if you are interested in a low time G550, we are not using a broker to sell.

PL

[PLovett]

RVSM is a plus and yes, you can get hush kits, but, and it is a big BUT, operational and maintenance costs on a G11 are still going to be very high and I suggest, higher than what you currently spend on travel. In addition I believe Europe is to introduce still more severe noise restrictions that may well exclude even a hush-kitted aeroplane.

There are better options available, especially now with business confidence depressed with a lot of corporate aircraft on the market. Please seek out a reputable consultant and you will end up both with an aircraft more suitable to your needs that will not forever be requiring maintenance.

A number of people who have posted on this thread have a far more intimate knowledge of operating corporate jets than I so please read carefully what they have posted. The G11 was a great aircraft in its day but that day has passed. There are better options.

[biocybertronics]

I started to look at Gulfstream-G550-GV and Bombardier-Global-5000 on a NetJets account although I still like the idea of owning one outright, at least I share the costs this way.

I will make a decision after speaking to some experts about costing’s etc, but thank you for all your input. It has helped so much.

[biocybertronics]

Another stupid question and I never really thought about it until the other half brought it up,

We have a few dogs and always leave them at home when traveling although the hotels we stay in always accept pets.

Now I do not really mind this as its good to get a break, but she is dog mad and will not let them fly commerical which I agree with as I do not like the idea of them being caged up in the hold, but on a business jet can you have them in the cabin with you legally?

[Flying Mechanic]

Think about a GV, can pick one up a descent one for less than 20 million. You get 550 range for a fraction of the price. Good time to be buying any second hand jets it's a buyers market.

[x933]

If you buy a GII, I would budget on never getting the money back if you needed to sell it.

Go scheduled for the long haul stuff and buy a sensible, proven aircraft for jumping around Europe. See how ownership works before committing. Midsize jets which give you a good cabin and low operating costs with the versatility of being able to turn up pretty much anywhere (try doing that in a GII in Europe) rather than the nearest place that isn't noise sensitive. Excels and Hawkers can be had for (comparitavely) no money at the minute, will always be sell-able if looked after and it'll be a LOT easier to find a crew - are there even any G-II sims left?

[biocybertronics]

The jumping will be more in the US, and US scheduled flights I must admit drive me insane with connections.

I guess I was spoilt in Europe with Heathrow, Manchester or Birmingham all being within 3 hours drive and could pretty much get me anywhere I needed to go direct.

As for reasons why we are looking at such an option, 12 of us fly on a regular basis. Often 4-8 at a time to the same location, and in some cases like last week Washington to Dallas with 5 hours’ notice so the price was through the roof, but it was for a large client.

As we have to take tools of our trade, our devices, computer equipment at times, it is a hassle checking this, as we work in anti/counter terrorism some of this equipment is very specialized and takes forever to explain to a TSA employee, as well as fines for going over the baggage allowance.

In fact 3 weeks ago, we were unable to load some important equipment on the plane as it was too heavy and I guess the flight was at the limit, so an employee had to no longer catch the flight (having paid for the ticket) and drive down as we needed it the following morning (a 16 hour drive.)

Not talking huge weights just more than allowed.
Flying to Europe would be four to five times a year minimum, myself personally did 10 trips last year and 6 of these 7 other people came with me, and business class tickets soon mount up.

As for resale value, in the scheme of things I know I am paying nothing for the jet in the first place so I understand the resale will be nothing.
As mentioned we are looking at netjets for a fractional ownership account, but the kudos to the company owning our own plane outright I think counts for a lot.

With the breaking of ground on our first factory being manufacturing in-house and no longer outsourcing in November, being located in the Midwest and our head office in near enough D.C the increase of flights over the next few years will be massive.

We saw the Gulfstream II as a stop gap for 4-5 years as the business grows and we get over the costs of building a 56,000ft factory then upgrading to a more modern jet, and writing the cost off tax wise over the five years.

So there is an urgent business need to find a suitable form of transport and soon, however we have reached out to a few consultants today as well as netjets, and the advice on here has stopped us from making the purchase because it seemed like a great deal at the time.

[FrankR]

I look back upon my years in the GII and GIII fleet fondly. It was the most fun I ever had flying...

But do not even think about buying one!!! In my last GIII position, we spent on average $80,000 USD per month to keep it in the air. Yup, 80k a month!

You'll spend less buying a 7 million dollar GIV than a 1 million dollar GIII

FR

[Gulfstreamaviator]

just to keep the type battle running Galaxy Flyer especially..... I agree the 604 would do the job just as well, and having read the recent posts, totally agree.

I have over 2500 on both types, and loved the 601 and then the 604..... but passengers seem to prefer the G450/G550......

For the mission as detailed, either type would work.

A very interesting thread, with real input and help being offered.

G4phil, Where is your 550 located, (Coventry.?????).

FrankR, Running costs on a G2 G3, are sky high, but as you said great fun to fly, real aeroplanes.

Re the OP, comments about heavy and delicate kit, there is no substitute for an Executive jet.





Glf

[biocybertronics]

I think that’s the key point despite costs is the transferring of kit which is important to work.
Going to go over the options and finally make a decision of the next few weeks, but thank you for all your help.
Must admit I not hear one person other than the broker we went to first who has said get the Gulfstream II

[Deep and fast]

Have a look at the Embraer legacy. Good hold space and cheap compared to the other modern kit. Will need a fuel stop westbound back to the us though which can be done in less than 30 mins on the ground. Fantastic dispatch reliability as well.

Good luck.

D and F :8

[biocybertronics]

So I taken the advice from here as well as a third party and we have found a jet that suits our needs and within budget, we have been advised to get a tech report, I guess the same as a house survey which I would not even think of having it completely looked over by an expert before parting with that kind of cash.

I have a fee of $2,000 a day and around $1,500 for travel for a tech to do the report, is this a fair price?

[dss3000]

Hi

This is called a pre purchase inspection its your chance to have the AC gone over from Nose to Tail. This is done at a service centre which is a qualified facility approved by the Airframe manufacturer.

You are responsible to pay your qualified Engineer who will go over all tech logs as well as any other documentation, and do a full inspection ,the current owner is responsible to cover the cost of the inspection at the facility. Your Engineer should give you a report on any snag or discrepancy. After this you negotiate what the owner is prepared to have fixed at his cost and what final price you are prepared to pay for the AC.


In this market you should insist on all defects or major items be covered by the owner, you should leave the facility with a freshly inspected current up to date AC.

I hope this helps you should you have any questions feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Bob

[biocybertronics]

I realize it was the same I guess as house survey pointing out everything that is wrong with the aircraft before the sale.
However I was wondering was $3500 including the travel a fair price as I just asked the broker if they recommended anyone and that was the price I was given, if it massively wide of the mark or even too good to be true I will look elsewhere.

[papak]

First of all, the engines are nearly impossible to get parts for. The fuel burns are outrageous and the avionics will not be compliant with EASA requirements without great expense. Here in the US, we commonly refer to GIIs as "geranium planters". GIIIs are nearly in the same boat. The least expensive Gulfstream that is reasonably operationally efficient is a later GIV SP. The best "bang for the buck" is a GV. They go for about $20 mil and have reasonably upgradeable avionics and decent fuel burns. Anything that you spend on a GII is a total write off in very short order.

[LGW Vulture]

Oh dear, US$2,000 a day - for an individual? And, you think it can be completed in one day? You're not taking it to an authorised service centre?

I see the fun is just beginning......:ugh:

[FrankR]

The pre-buy on our last G-III took several weeks, a team of 5 in the hangar going over the aircraft, and two guys in a single wide going over the log books from day one.... Gulfstream used to charge $60,000 (ballpark) for this in 2000. It should be noted that a GIII was worth 8-10 Million U.S. in those days...

If it saved you from a several hundred thousands in oooppppssss, big repair bills, and losing your job...

FR

[jackx123]

why not just lease an aircraft, or lease to purchase. dispatch, logs etc are all done for you.

[balaton]

Hi Bio,

Do you have any ideas where to find base and shelter for your aircraft in the Washington area, at reasonable cost and reasonable distance to your headquarters? It is the second most important question after the purchase decision.
Besides, I've witnessed the doom results of a "wow, it's cheap to buy this big airplane" attitude in my vicinity. The aircraft is sitting in a hangar since, abandoned and waiting for some miracle...Be careful. Consider the advices of experts in the previous posts.

Cheers and good luck,

b

P.s: Any feedback on the outcome of your story would be appreciated.

[biocybertronics]

balaton

Before we even looked around for a a/c we looked at local airports/fields and we are lucky there is one near ourselves that has space as well as two runways, but due to Ronald Regan and Dulles being local to it, within 40 miles it is someone what under used.
When in fact it is the largest region airport in the state, and as its city owned the rental is not to bad.

[noneya]

Bio,

As people have mentioned, please take the aircraft you are looking at to a service center to have a proper pre buy done! It will save you sooooo much money in the long run. A proper pre-buy can not be done in a day or by one guy who says he can do it for you cheap.

If you like, you can PM me and I will give you the contact information for our Director of Maintenance who can lead you in the right direction. He has been supervising Pre-Buys and doing Log Book inspections for Banks and independent clients for years.

Good luck on your purchase.

J

[mutt]

You are going to lose your shirt with a G2.... we have operated G2's and G3's, right now they are sitting on the apron and we cant even give them away :) It is apparent that you know nothing about the costs of an aircraft or maintenance, so be very careful as you are running the risk of bankrupting your company.

To jump from airline flying to corporate ownership of a large jet is utterly crazy. I would strongly suggest getting an aircraft share in Netjets or similar to gain the experience of corporate flying, then in a year or two, reassess the costs and decide if you can afford a "reasonable" corporate jet.

Mutt

[deefer dog]

So let me get this straight.

On October 1st you told us that business was looking up, and that as it had been an ambition of yours to own a private jet you were now contemplating the purchase of a G2.

It was pointed out by many here that in 1967 the aircraft was a wonderful airplane, but now it can only be described as a noisy, gas guzzling, worthless museum piece that will cost you a fortune to keep flying. Nevertheless, you persist, and within a couple of days you have decided that there is merit in re-upholstering and re-painting a sows ear to turn it into a silk purse, despite the fact that most here have advise you will never get your money back.

Now I don't know very much about cybertronics, let alone the bio variant, but if I was going to buy one for circa $500,000 I would certainly heed the common advise given in any cybertronic forum. More than that, if I did find a forty year old cybertronic model that took my fancy, I would engage the services of a cybertronic appointed service centre to do the pre-purchase inspection - and not some muppet who will do the job in a day or two for pocket money!

If you go ahead with this plan you really are gonna make the seller and his broker very happy people. My advise mirrors that of everyone else here...stop thinking of a G2, and believe us....you can NOT afford it!!

[long final]

Bio,

You need to take good advice before you move any further forward with your plan. That isn't as easy as it may sound - the aviation world, as with most, has too many people out for themselves and not the customer - be careful who you listen to and get advice from various sources.

For me, if you want to operate an aircraft that will allow, at times, up to 12 Pax in comfort, your statement;

'I realsie the cost will be quite high, but as we are doing around 450 hours a year flying for at least 4 people at time, I am sure the costs will come in line with what we are spending on Business class alone.'

is, IMO, way way off the mark. The jump from Business Class ticket to 12 Pax aircraft doing 450 hours a year is huge. As you say though, you do get superb availability, speed and point to point routing - however, it will cost you far more than I think you realise.

If you still have any doubts? - this is a pilot forum and pretty much everyone is telling you to think again.

Good luck.

[Bearcat F8F]

Most interesting thread on pprune :E

bio, perhaps you could tell us what your budget is and how much you intend to spend on the plane per month or per year? This would immediately identify the aircraft which are available to you, and would eliminate comments posted by some such as "you will not afford it bla bla bla". I'm sure there are lots of experts here who could provide you with good advice on what to purchase, provided they know how much money you have to spend.

Good luck to you Sir :ok:

[Grenville Fortescue]

The last few posts have finally brought some desperately needed home truths to the intrepid biocybertronics!

At first I thought the original post may have been the action of a teenage aviation enthusiast but now I don't know what to think!

I have a suspicion that this enquiry is a flight of fancy more than a genuine situation involving someone who is going to buy an aircraft anytime soon.

Keep it real.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0CqZCpjiMM8/UF04y1_N0pI/AAAAAAAAJsU/s3zkdbm6QRc/s140/AG%2520Fortescue.png
GF

[Sillypeoples]

Bio - You need to talk to someone that has researched, bought, put on line, managed, and flown corporate jets as a Chief Pilot.

Anyone saying a G5 or Challenger is a viable alternative doesn't have a clue as to the real world capitol cost difference.

What you need to do is sit down with someone that is objective, not trying to sell you a plane, take a hard look at your travel history, what realistically you need to accomplish...then be super conservative as a move into your first big jet.

[FrankR]

Three points:

First, I'm shocked! Shocked to learn that some posts here on PPruneare not genuine!! How could this possibly happen? OK, IMHO, maybe 35% of the posts here are flat out bogus, rants, or are severely skewed by a toxic mixture of anger and/or an inflated ego. However, many of the kind replies provide worthy learning points.

Second, regarding this post, the cost of capital is treated differently depending on the current situation of the person or entity. Sometimes, you may want to sink "all cash" into an aircraft, other times, leverage with a 90% loan (If you can get a loan), and other times, go the nothing down route and lease!

Regardless, you should be looking at the 5 year cost of ownership, not the purchase price alone. In this case, I bet a $9 million dollar GIV is way cheaper than a $1.5 million dollar GII over 5 years.

Finally, I've seen many a time where a client ended up with a crazy choice for an aircraft. One owner I know fly's 50 hours a year on 500 NM legs, and owns a G550, another owner fly's from LA to London every month buys an aircraft requiring two fuel stops each way.

Ours is not to reason why,

FR

[Gulfstreamaviator]

The initial cost of purchase is only the start.

The cost of ownership over, say 5 years, for a G5 or CL, in relation to the cost of ownership on a G2 is a balance between reale value, as well as hourly operating costs.

The OP has a quantity of delicate and sensitive equipment to transport, as well as SLF.

I gather he requires rapid dispatch, and secure hangerage......

450 hours a year is good utilisation for any corporate jet, GLf of Cl.


Is it 35 % or 95% of us here that are legit or what...Sometimes PP actually helps other...

glf

[gbruton]

I'm calling this post complete BS.

All I did was type in Biocybertronicsinc and Alexandria, VA and this came up.. https://www.facebook.com/biocybertronicsinc - looks like they just started in Sept. of 2012. It mentions that "new manufacturing plant" they are looking for. Business must be booming check out that new 4 room office! Totally can afford that multi-million dollar corporate jet.......

All for people starting a business and following there dream but c'mon man!

EDIT - Looks like the company was founded in 2010. But they just moved the Corporate offices from UK to USA in Sept. All 4 of them.

[FrankR]

Um, one Billionaire I used to fly had an office of approximately 1,500 Sq. Ft. and drove a five year old Toyota Corolla.....

Another, a professional sports guy who lived in Florida, had us stop on the way to the airplane and get fast food for catering for his private 737...

The moral here is that a small office and a large bankroll are not mutually exclusive.

FR

[gbruton]

I agree. I know a guy who runs a 100 Million dollar a year company out of 2,000sqft with three people in his office.

But he is not on a forum asking aircraft purchase questions, which to be honest if no one else thought were some big red flags then I really do not know what to say.

Also, as many people here who fly corporate jets for companies. IF the company can afford to purchase a jet the CEO does not come onto a forum and ask the questions he asked. The company who go through the proper channels to acquire a aircraft... which 99 out of a 100 is not through PPRUNE.

Also, not hating on the the 4 room office but come on. They are in the middle of "buying/setting up" a HUGE manufacturing plant but only have what.... four employees? Please..... just the personal and infrastructure to execute that idea or expansion he is saying they are about to do requires teams of people.

Also, If you did go to the facebook site or the website... "the CEO" is also the PR rep sending out the press releases.... Another red flag.

All I was voicing is there seemed to be a lot of flags going up based of what he was saying and further research seem to back what I thought..which it was just BS.

[mutt]

which to be honest if no one else thought were some big red flags then I really do not know what to say. Did you consider the fact that we really dont care if its BS? It gives us the opportunity to amuse ourselves discussing a subject close to our hearts without investing time, money or effort.

If the guy is sitting in his bedroom with his fantasy company, so what?

Mutt

[gbruton]

We or You?

Needless to say I do agree with you. I do enjoy reading topics like this one and reading everyone's input. All I simple pointed out was after his last post is that his inquire to buy a GII is BS. And based of the PM responses I got a few others seem to agree.

[205T7]

I am in the market for a low time G550, can you help?

[fleigle]

Call Gulfstream.
Oh!, and you'll need Pilots.
:p

[Booglebox]

If this guy really is a troll, he's one of the most realistic I've seen. Or, I'm just gullible.
Anyhoo, found this part of the BioCybertronics website quite amusing, especially considering the MPG of a GII.

Alongside this Bio Cybertronics believes it is everyone’s reasonability to ensure we maintain and support the environment we operate in for future generations, ergo we have several green sustainable business practices in place.
These include but are not limited to;


Printing everything that has to printed, is printed on recycled paper.
Encouraging the use of E-Documents at all times, instead of printing them.
Reusing shipping materials.
Recycling.
Implementing more online services that require less paper and shipping supplies, such as scanning and uploading of exhibits, online scheduling, virtual upload of audio, and online access to transcripts.
The option to fax or email invoices instead of mailing them.
Integrating green practices into our expansion and growth.
Commuting together.
Using recycled paper and soy-based inks for all envelopes and stationery.

[nch334]

Gentlemen let CyberT have his G2 he can run it on recycled vegeatable oil and have soybean cakes for inflight catering and retread tissue for his potty. He can also hire P2FLY crew if he so desires its his money :confused:. That been said great thread and even greater aircraft once upon a time. :ok:

[Sillypeoples]

For those of you that aren't aware of corporate flight ops...at some point some guy with a bunch of money considers getting a plane, a yacht, building a home, investing his money in this or that...and there is an initial research process...

Usually it starts with talking to his buddy the airline pilot with zero corporate flight experience or his CFII that is teaching him to fly his Cessna 182, or the pilots that currently fly him around in charter, having zero clue about aircraft acquisition, or maintenance...or the aircraft sales guy in the glossy brochure that is trying to lay away the fresh one he's got on the other end of the line.

So real or not, social media being what it is...wouldn't surprise some guy throws it out there that he's considering a plane on here...and guess what? Surprise surprise...you guys failed the test..

You didn't inquire into this capital costs, the 'why' of a GII, didn't ask about his mission specifics, just jumped right in and called him an idiot, after of course telling him to go get a Challenger...and if he is for real, chances are he called Netjets and some slick sales guy just said 'Don't worry about it, write a check and the plane will be out front in 3 hours'...and that's how they do it, because corporate pilots have so completely screwed things up that it's just flat out easier to not have to go through this and just pay through the nose and be done with the BS.

[FrankR]

Sadly, there is an awful lot of truth to what Capt. Sillypeoples said in his critique.

I've watched many seedlings of promising flight departments wither and die due to this unfocused, divisive, and poorly aimed commentary. Add in the pent up emotions of the players, and it's not surprising that many new flight departments have such screwy behaviors, actors, and aircraft.

FR

[biocybertronics]

Just to clear up a few things, the Facebook side and social media I personally hate with a passion, we sell to governments and typical until recently not in the private sector, so we did not need that crap though we are trying to branch into that hence some stupid facebook page etc, though I have no real interest in that.

I'm not really a fan of all this social media, but understand times are changing and in fact we have a employee starting in November who that is solely their job, to clean it up, get more followers etc, as at the moment it is just something on the side for when we get a free moment.

As for the office, we have to be registered in VA and have a location within 40 mins of certain government clients, hence leasing a small place for 12 months so we have the address there. It is nothing more than that for contractual obligations.

So although on paper it is technically the corporate headquarters in the US, it is by no means the main place of business.

And we have been trading for a lot longer than 2010 however we were told we could not sign certain US contracts as a foreign entity, and therefore although we been trading in the US since 2007 and overall since 2000 in Europe, we registered in the US in 2010 as a separate entity although technically overall they are one of the same.

The reason I came on the forum myself to ask questions is because, I was in hospital after surgery for 10 days and therefore had a bit of downtime, and not to mention was bored sitting in a hospital bed so thought I would do something semi proactive and research it.

I will admit I am totally naive when it comes to aviation other than turning up at the airport, and catching my flight, my business is primary counter-terrorism and identification of individuals in conflict zones.

We have a budget and a mission all be it I did not know the terminology was a mission until I came on the forum, which is mainly the transport of equipment that is very specialized and expensive.

Yes I was interested in a GulfStream II, as aforementioned I know nothing about planes other than I know it is a respected name and carries a certain level of kudos.

As many people have mentioned in this post you can get them for next to nothing, which attracted my attention as this a/c was going for $280,000 well below our budget but I thought wow, this could come in a lot cheaper.
But despite the Brooker selling the a/c telling me how great is, and they are using it still etc, I thought the price difference is to good to be true hence the original post.

I have since the original post spoke to Av Consultant who is local to myself, as well as NetJets, and will shortly have the correct information and pros and cons of both.

For the people who offered legitimate advice, thank you.

P.S As for the green stuff, It is something I believe in, however I am not driving 36 hours three or four times a month when I need to fly to Texas or Utah so needs must.

[Sillypeoples]

Bio - Just remember in the end, it's just a plane, and it goes where you want it to go. Be careful who you choose to work with. In this business either they want your money or they just want to fly your plane, so that skews intentions and who you can trust.

[biocybertronics]

Why is why I registered on here in the first place to try and get a better understanding.

The questions about the inspection, I have no clue how many people are required to do a pre-sale inspection and yes it may have seen very naive to other members on the forum, but as stated in my previous post, I have no knowledge of aviation other than visiting the air and space museum and catching a flight.

I know for a fact this would of come across to the Broker when I was inquiring about the plane, which is most likely why he was trying to sell it short.

And thinking about the logic of it in hindsight its a 1977 a/c I would never thinking of buying a car of that age unless it was a classic and use it only as a Sunday driver, not a business tool which I need to use regularly.

Just did not think of them in the same way until it was pointed out

[CEQforever]

Bio, just one more warning, be careful with Fractional ownership sales people, as once you've signed on the dotted line, it may well take away a lot of the BS of owning an aircraft outright, but you inevitably pay a lot for that benefit. Deciding together with an aviation consultant what your mission requirements are to find a suitable plane, will allow you to benefit from the fantastic buyers market that private aviation currently is.

Maybe let us know what the outcome of your project is in a couple months time.

[hawker750]

Bio
Go for it, do not listen to the doom merchants, they are probably sales people trying to sell you an expensive aircraft for a fat commission.
If you are wise you can have a great airplane for litttle money and low operating costs.
As all the experts say an old G2 or G3 is virtually worthless. so:
1/ Buy the best ship you can find with a new 72 month inspection and landing gear with at least 5 years on it and engines with 5 years at least to mid life. Cost? peanuts
2/ Employ a good experienced engineer (do not rely on organisations)
3/ Buy another aircraft for spare parts.Cost? less than peanuts.

You will have all the spare parts you want together with spare engines.
One of the biggest expenses with operating aircraft is the engine overhaul reserve. This way you do not have this expense.
For 5 years put gas in it, keep it serviceable with your mountain of spares and put a sticker on your bumper "At least my airplane is paid for"

Seriously do it and good luck. I may even join you and do the same

[cldrvr]

Nothing wrong with buying a clapped out GII, just budget for lots of fuel and money in spare parts and plan on throwing it away in a few years. As it is a buyers market, the higher value airframes depreciate, so run the numbers, as long as the extra cost in fuel and parts outweigh the depreciation and the smaller cost of operating a newer airframe, go for it.

Keep in mind, it will never be cheaper than flying business class and plan to be severely limited in Europe if you do want to take it over here due to noise. Plenty of US airports have noise restrictions too.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I hope Bio gets the aircraft that suits his needs...I hope we all hear the continuation of the story too.

glf

[Big Pistons Forever]

To anyone who is thinking about getting their own jet:

If you want a sanity check just look at charter per hour rates. The US charter market is so competitive there is very little profit in quoted rates so what you pay will be grosso modo what it will cost you to own and fly your own ride. Next look at at a years worth of travel and get some charter quotes on your typical trips and do the math. If the number doesn't frighten you then get a broker and start looking as it is a total buyers market.

byocybertronics:

If you want to do 450 hours a year in a large cabin jet then your travel budget will need to be at least $ 2,000,000 a year.......

[CL300]

450 hours at 2mio... multiply by two and you will have the proper number.

Place of registration, new regulations to come, loads of informations to phase in.
One thing for sur no G2, G3 and old airframe like this. Even for the next 5 years, RVSM is not the issue anymore, ADS-B, cpdlc, Rnp....just to name a few...these are the concern of retained value at 5 years.

I understand that the capital cost is somewhat a concern, and running costs can be taken as they come; but the value of a transatlantic/transcontinental jet is at a minimum of 8 millions, capital that you can reasonably recoup at 50% in 5 years; now you add the downtime costs due to maintenance with this type of utilisation, the turnover of the crews due to the usual stuff, etc. you are looking for a final cashflow over 5 years of 20 mio....for 2000 hours...Can you afford it ? The rest is litterature on my opinion, but i can equally give you a quote of only 10 mio for this period, if i do not count, catering, hotac, enroute taxes, sbs , etc..

Enjoy the corporate world, but like it was written earlier, from 0 to a large transatlantic aircraft, and NO inhouse experience, prepare the cash machine !

[Big Pistons Forever]

I should have been more specific. The at least $ 2 Million a year figure was just the direct operating costs for flying an aircraft that you already wholly own and does not include the lost opportunity cost of the money you used to buy it.

There are many valid reasons to operate a business jet, but you will pay a high price for the flexibility, convienience, and security..........

[GLF5driver]

To Biocybertronics and the G-II.

Welcome to PPRuNe.com. Congratulations on your decision to privatize your corporations air travel.

My two cents worth...

Without going in to full detail here, properly selecting a relevant aircraft follows fairly well established guidelines. It begins without consideration of any particular aircraft at all. Typically, the choice of a specific manufacturer, make, or model of aircraft comes almost at the end of the process, and is generally driven from within the process. The appropriate category / model of aircraft will narrow to a very specific few models. Choosing among those is another major drill in and of itself.

If this is a real event you speak of, then you simply must engage the services of a professional. In business, one does this as matter of course with any planned multi-million dollar / euro expenditure. Whether that experienced professional is to be the Manager or Chief Pilot of your new Flight Department, or an experienced Aircraft Brokerage House, or other Qualified and Experienced Consultant, is one of your early decisions and requires a fair amount of research on its own.

I and my colleagues and others do this sort of guidance as our primary business, worldwide. We routinely write very involved contracts for the buyers to protect themselves during the selection and pre-purchase process. We use internationally known escrow companies to handle all financial transactions, assuring both seller and buyer.

We typically mandate that pre-purchase inspections are performed at an industry leading facility. This is an absolute requirement to assure the necessary depth of knowledge and quality of work on the make and model under consideration and to provide additional guarantees of the aircraft condition. We can easily spend several days just reading and researching logbooks and maintenance releases - line by line, page by page, before we ever physically approach the aircraft. Again, there is a clear process to buying an aircraft, and it is detailed and time consuming.

To acquire the proper aircraft, one well fitted to your actual travel needs, and budget, I strongly recommend an association with a professional. He or she can actually save you money, time, exasperation, and prevent hugely expensive errors and oversights.

You have identified some of your needs, such as destinations, but you cannot realistically speak of a specific aircraft until you have thoroughly investigated the actual Airways distances that you will have to fly to reach them and their alternate airports. Average trip winds and temps aloft for those routes? Required altitudes? Average passenger complements? Route specific equipment and equipment certifications? Expected standard delays for those airports? Available runway requirements? Night bans?

You spoke of heavy baggage requirements; what are permissible aircraft baggage compartment floor loadings? External loading accessibility. Aircraft acceptance of heavy loads aft?

Country specific equipment requirements? Noise certificates and noise bans. Bans on specific aircraft and engine models (such as G-II prohibitions). Age limitations - aircraft and crew! Available maintenance support? Tax certificates and country of registration? Layover taxation traps! Airway charges vs a/c weight? Handling agents?

Crew costs, training costs, hull insurance costs, liability costs, restoration costs, storage costs, refurbishment costs, Contract crew use and when. Computerized maintenance tracking. Third party fixed maintenance insurance programs vs available manufacturers programs, or neither? And many, many more pages of questions.

An experienced advisor can provide the questions you should be asking, and provide the answers that ultimately will shape your choice of aircraft.

Your capital outlay for aircraft acquisition and start-up will be in the many millions of dollars. Your annual budget may be upwards of a million dollars, and in a few years will exceed the total of capital costs. Being unaware of impending mandatory changes in air laws in various regions of the world could actually ground your newly acquired corporate workhorse.

I'm a long term Gulfstream pilot - G-II, G-III, G-IV, G-V and their variants - but the Gulfstream may not even be a suitable choice. Fantasy choices of aircraft here are fun, but are a diversion outside of and ahead of a professionally guided process.

Regards and good luck.

[gaunty]

What GLF5driver said:ok:

I have recently bought a very nice GIV to add to a Challenger in the fleet.

Gulfstream is a great product with outstanding support,

It took me 2 months including walking away from 3 or more aircraft that looked good on paper, to nail it down and that is after around 9 months research and I actually know what I'm doing.

Beleive me the GFC still reverberates through the market and has produced a whole set of new challenges to the used market, some potentially quite nasty to add the usual others in the purchase of used aircraft particularly the older ones.

Unless you only want to operate in the continental US forget GII. The Stage 2 engines are the problem. There is an STC for Stage 3 mod but that only puts off the inevitable and is not generally accepted outside the US. In any event you would only be making someone else's problem your own.

Unless I am mistaken, what you seem to be looking for or at least the expectation is going to cost towards USD 10m and you need to budget min USD 1m pa to have it standing out the front plus DOCs, AND be capable of writing a cheque for USD1m at the drop of a hat for things that will go bump in the night. If you can't meet that It s the road to perdition.

it goes something like pay now or pay later.

Good luck

[moscovite]

iJUIEx0dAs4&feature

[AZAV8R]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeujVNHzgezPDyBEJYSBqagc3NWy_u_pFc59EOQWn EwyRCHcF3

[Anthony Supplebottom]

moscovite - What AZAV8R means is that he is utterly overwhelmed by the skill, style and panache of GulfstreamGirl! ;)

[AZAV8R]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTeuJ_V1KjYMFk6-Bnj-XlIx9Q-lIl9NTR4jjt9W1jPGHK8lX63vA

Yeah...overwhelming, that's it.... ;)

[PLovett]

Yeah....she was concentrating so hard on banging out those checks that she forgot to put on her shoulder harness for the landing. Still.....I'm only jealous, even if it is a GII.

[moscovite]

I am glad you like GG :ok:

http://www.nycfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/gulfstream_girl1.jpg

[flyboyike]

I like GG, in fact, I like any woman who understands that beauty fades, even such ample beauty as hers.

[Photoburst]

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2872/10994503483_cd7a89ceed_b.jpg

Gulfstream II.

The jet that changed executive aviation.

[AZAV8R]

Funny how many will gloss over and dismiss who/what she really is/was because she's an attractive female. If she was a male with the history that she has, she'd be lynched!

For those that are truly interested, research Jeffery Epstein and Nadia Marcinkova...the real Gulfstream Girl. :=

[flyboyike]

I don't think she makes any secret out of it.

[pigboat]

At least the airplane didn't call her a retard. :p

[gbruton]

Ha... this thread again.

I wonder how our boy Biocybertronics did with is purchase...................O wait.