Article - EK CEO Wants Another 40 A380s On Top of 90 Ordered

[Iver]

I just found this story on another forum. Sounds like some great opportunities for pilots in the region. :cool::ok::cool::D

UPDATE 1-Emirates Airline's Clark says wants more Airbus A380s | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/27/emirates-boeing-idUSL1E8KRIQD20120927?type=marketsNews)

By Alwyn Scott

Sept 27 (Reuters) - Confirming growing demand for the world's largest airliner, a top executive of Emirates Airline said on Thursday the company would be willing to buy another 40 Airbus A380 jets, but that the fast-growing Dubai airport where the airline is based is short of room for them.

Emirates Airline President Tim Clark had already said the airline wants another 30 A380s, on top of 90 already on order. Increasing that number to 40 suggests demand is rising for the A380 made by the Airbus unit of Europe's EADS.

Emirates, by far the largest customer for the A380, whose list price is $390 million, had 23 of the superjumbo jets in service at the end of August.

Clark, speaking at an industry conference in Seattle, said there are seven A380s waiting in Hamburg, Germany, for delivery as part of the normal deliver schedule. He is not worried about his airline's strong growth being affected by recession in Europe, slowing growth in China (http://www.reuters.com/places/china) and unrest in the Middle East. Dubai, he said, "is a honey pot. There is no place better, except maybe China."

Clark has been ratcheting up his demand for the 525-seat A380 jet since he surprised the aviation world in 2010 by saying the airline could buy 120 of the aircraft.

Emirates, one of Dubai's most prized assets, has continued to grow rapidly despite a regional debt crisis followed by a wider recession affecting the airline industry and high fuel prices.

"We don't cancel orders," Clark said. "We get on with it."

If Emirates carried out its ambition of operating a fleet of 130 A380s, adding 40 to its current order of 90, it would control a fleet worth over $50 billion at list prices and extend its dominance as the European planemaker' s largest customer.

Regarding the development of a revamped Boeing Co 777, Clark said that the first of its fleet of 777-300-ER jets are due to be retired in 2017, and Emirates would like to replace them with the updated 777, which promises much greater efficiencies.

Given that deadline, he said it was a good time to start "bellyaching" to get a new jet started. "I'm hoping to see it sooner rather than later."

A Boeing official said the company is developing options and "when we are satisfied with the risks, costs and schedule, we intend to present a plan for offering the airplane to customers that would enter the market late this decade."

[fernando737]

It sounds pretty good! Interviewed in May and still swimming

[Dropp the Pilot]

Hubris.

If you hurry and collect your Provident Fund pennies you might get out of there before Nemesis arrives.

[ETOPS240]

Betting the farm a little, on the hope of more freedom rights, isn't he?

[vfenext]

Already has the rights, just wants to put more seats on the bigger routes.

[170to5]

I remain unsure as to whether there is enough traffic globally to justify one carrier operating up to 130 A380s...well, I am sure, it's just not the answer Tim Clark has come to...my money is that there'll be order swaps from 380's to smaller aeroplanes before this is all over.

Then again, people probably said that about the 747 when it was introduced...

[Plore]

It's one thing to get and train the pilots for all of these, but who the hell is going to fix them?

Engineering staff is already spread so thin they cant even afford to have a guy with a badly broken leg being booked off from duty so they get the clinic docter (paid by EK) to cut his sick leave by half!!:mad::ugh:

[kingpost]

Isn't it funny that he would say this in Seattle - he's trying to boost the order book for the Seattle rival or make Boeing cut back on some pricing!

DXB can't accommodate the current number of aircraft, where would he want these gas guzzlers parked?

You know what they say when it's too good to be true, ............!!

[vfenext]

Gas Guzzlers? You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[kumul1]

Parked????...you only want a fraction of the fleet parked in Dubai at any one time on Maint. and/or turn around, the rest should be working.

[CAYNINE]

Gas Guzzlers.... always surprises me that statement, anyone ever bothered to see how much a 390 pax 744 consumes per hour?

Stupid boy :{

[clear to land]

I think it may be more in reference to the main twin jet in the company Caynine, not a 744. Then again I could be wrong....... but I thought the A380 only became the most efficient per seat mile when it was crammed with a 600+ 2 class config. I think Air Austral even considered a single class 700+ but then the reality of where the bags go kicked in-let alone the freight (sorry donpizmeov-couldn't resist that one ;) )

[EK380]

Sorry clear to land... Couldn't resist;

How much cargo do you carry on the 777 on a summer day to SFO?

Suppose 400pax at average 115kg (pax+bag)= 41150kg. How much payload left on the 773ER for cargo with a TO at 42C?

[helen-damnation]

More than a 380 :O:O

Sorry, couldn't resist either!

[glofish]

Nice one helen!!

Once more: Not talking yield, but simply download the flightplans of the parallel flights to a couple of destinations.
If you are capable of calculating and extrapolating, then you will see why the 380 is a gas guzzler.

You may add fuel to reach the West Coast, but you need to add around 35 tons to add 1 hour of range ..... Is that worth it?

The beancounters are not stupid, neither is Airbus. If they can make money, they'll serve the WC with the dugong.

But concerning efficiency and fuel burn, I will admit an apology here once I will see a 380 flightplan to LA with the same ratio-numbers as a 77W.
Until then, I concur with fuel guzzler.

[Craggenmore]

Airlines don't exist without passengers and what do they prefer?

[The Zohan]

More than a 380

wrong!

it's the 90 premium class passengers that make the difference in revenue.
no room for any relevant cargo on a full 77 to the us west coast.
the 77 often leaves with empty seats, in summer, just to be able to carry the luggage of the lucky pax that made it...

tz

[glofish]

Airlines don't exist without passengers and what do they prefer?

For the same price, they'll take the shower, certainly. As long as the companies charge the same, they'll take the more fancy stuff, if there's a choice. However, for a discount of a couple of dirty hams they will board anything!! That's what it is today.
It's the company who can provide the most fancy ride at the same price that makes the cut. OK, some premium passengers prioritise schedule and frequency, but in general it's the price that matters.

That lead me to what I said earlier, that there will be a limit to what EK can afford with respect to the added luxury versus the higher consumption on the A380. At the moment, with the 'wow'-factor, the dugong product seems to work out.
I simply stated that with a predicted erosion of the numbers and price paid by premium passengers and with the assumed increase in fuel price, there will be a line crossed where the dugong costs too much.

Let's hope that both effects do not happen, with the number of 380's on order.



There's another thing:
It's not entirely correct to compare the 77W on the West Coast routes. It has never been designed for such routes and Boeing never propagated it for that. In contrast Airbus has boasted the dugong for the ULR.
The real product for such routes are the 77L or the 345 and there the verdict of fuel guzzling is known.
So basically the performance, precisely the capability of full cabin versus all the bags and some cargo, should be compared between a 77L and a 380.
Now logically enough the higher number of seats might speak for the dugong, but the almost any-day capability of the 77L to take full load might speak for a double 77L shift.
That's for the bean counters, again, or as a matter of fact for the station managers, they quite often do not agree!! But don't compare a aircraft that was not designed for a route with another one that has (all though today the earlier still performs better .....)

[halas]

Good price, timing, reasonable service and IFE.

Oh, and to be on time.

halas

[donpizmeov]

The abridged EK history,

It all started with the 737 and the 727. These were great. But Airbus then invented the A300/A310. The worlds first twin engined widebody. The beasts carried the same load in two trips that the 737/727 carried in three, and for almost the same fuel burn. The PAX were also carried in greater comfort. The PAX rejoiced, the bean counters rejoiced, and the 737/727 crew spent their time flying the crappier routes awaiting their time to become bus drivers.

In 1996ish some early model 777s appeared. Not much is known about these as they were only allowed to fly of a night time, when it was considered there would be enough lift in the air to let them become airborne.

In 1999ish the A330 arrived. In two trips it carried the load that took three trips for the A300/A310, and at almost the same total fuel burn. The PAX were also carried in greater comfort. The PAX rejoiced, the bean counters rejoiced and the A300/A310 crew flew the crappier routes, and eventually only freighters, while the A330/340 crews flew throughout Europe, Australia and North America.

Then the 773ER was born. This aeroplane carried in two trips what the A330/340 carried in three, and at almost the same fuel burn. It also carried the PAX is greater comfort. The PAX rejoiced, the bean counters rejoiced and the A330/340 crews ended up flying the crappier routes, while the B777 crews flew throughout North America, Europe, Asia and Australia.

Then the A380 was born. This aeroplane could carry in two trips what the 773ER would carry in three, at almost the same total fuel burn (26000kg/hr/2x380 vs 25800kg/hr/3x777). It also carried the PAX in greater comfort. The PAX rejoiced, the bean counters rejoiced and the A380 crews ended up flying throughout Europe, North America, Asia and Australia, while the B777 crews....well you get the idea. :E

The Don

[Sonny Hammond]

I'll finish it...

"while the B777 crews....well you get the idea."...STILL fly to Europe, North America, Asia and Australia!! :ok:

Dont forget Africa, and South America too....

Win Win!!

[donpizmeov]

Awwww Sonny,

So its now MBID instead of MMID. :}

The Don

[falconeasydriver]

The last chapter being....

And then boys and girls, the Indian govt changed its mind and allowed the A380 the visit on a scheduled basis, and all the Boeing pilots whilst not living happily ever after...certainly enjoyed their rosters just a little bit more:E

[donpizmeov]

As history does tend to repeat, I agree with you Falcon.

[falconeasydriver]

Start spreading the news..............it's leaving todaaaaaay (http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/worlds-largest-aircraft-a380-may-soon-fly-to-india/489089/):E

[glofish]

Yipeeeeehhh!

A shower for the great unw.......! :}

[C4]

Met some EK 380 Drivers this weekend. All I can say is WOW! Ego's bigger than the 380. Tossers!

[White Knight]

Hey Falcon - did you read this part In India, only three airports — Delhi, Hyderabad and Bangalore — can handle A380s. Hardly a roster destroying spectre:}

[falconeasydriver]

Yep WK, but it's merely the start:} meanwhile I'll satisfy myself with a quiet bunk (no screaming babies) and good food "offered" by an SFS or a purser:ok:

[Payscale]

Listen boy. I does not matter what you fly. We have a job. Get paid every month on time. Our kids are in school.
Why do you carry on with this Boeing vs Airbus rant? When you are old enough you will probably have flown both types anyway.
Chill and find another hobby

[falconeasydriver]

Listen boy. I does not matter what you fly

I'm assuming that was directed at me....if so, please in future proof read before posting, unless of course you come from sarff lundon :hmm:
And your response makes the effort in posting that much sweeter, oh dear a tad sensitive there Payscale? :D:D:D:D

[jack schidt]

I really wish there was a block certain posters posts so that this remained an adults only forum!

[Payscale]

A pprune with relevant and informative posts would be nice. Sick and tired of every thread ending up in childish "mine is better than yours" posts.
No wonder pilots are treated like cattle in some companies. One look from management at some of these posts and they know how to deal with us. Just like their children at home. Stick and carrot.
If there were a pprune for ie doctors do you think they would post about the lenght of the knives?

[scandistralian]

At the end of the day, there are countless people out there stressing about whether or not they will have a job next month / having to fork out thousands of dollars for ratings, to fly in tinpot companies, and here we are, with job stability, working for a good company with career progression, flying undeniably two of the worlds best commercial aircraft (and the A330/A340 aint that bad either!).

@ Don, I would edit your story to say something along the lines of; Then the A380 was born. This aeroplane could carry in two trips a few less people and less cargo than what the 773ER would carry in three, with a higher total fuel burn (26000kg/hr/2x380 vs 25800kg/hr/3x777). The bean counters realised it would be better to deploy on capacity restricted routes and could be effectively combined with the 777 on other routes to optimise the balance between schedule flexibility, capacity and demand. The A380 crews ended up flying together with the B777 crews throughout Europe, the Americas, Asia, the Middle East and Oceania, and the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Passengers and Company all lived happily ever after....

[glofish]

good résumé scandistralian :D

[falconeasydriver]

You must be one sad sorry individual.

I resemble that remark!
FWIW, I enjoy a good windup, the really sad thing on here is that some choose to take things personally, and of course attempt to justify their indignation with a pumped up chest comment such as BOY et al....
If you can't take a joke...or accept that everyone else laughs when they hear "super" or laugh at all the name calling...then perhaps they need to lighten up a little? either way, I care not, knock your collective selves out, work yourselves into a sweaty brow..foaming at the mouth rage, I will continue to poke fun and laugh at the results:}

[three eighty]

I will continue to poke fun and laugh at the results

Perhaps if you actually said something funny we too would laugh, until then we will continue to endure your stuck record.

[falconeasydriver]

Well I guess 380, if three posts on subject followed by two responses to comments are construed as a stuck record then I would suggest there is more than a sniff of being a bit precious but Mea culpa. If my comments aren't funny then so be it, I am guilty of being a poor comedian, show me however where I have posted anything on this thread that is factually inaccurate? Or where I have called people on anything other than being a bit grumpy when presented with a few facts, rather than for instance, resorting to the rather low brow reposte of name calling, such as the previous poster?
Fact 1
EK have ordered the number of 380's it has for the express purpose of operating a considerable number to India.
Fact 2
EK have a superb commercial department who will have very little trouble filling 800 or so seats
Fact 3
EK is presently one of the safest jobs in the world, assuming you keep your nose clean.
Lastly, you guys take yourselves far TOO seriously

[clear to land]

Some of you guys REALLY need to get a sense of humour-if you can't take falcons comments for what they are meant to be-then for goodness sake go and have a holiday or something!!! 'one do'th protest too much' !

[millerscourt]

C4 I guess you are referring to White Knight?:confused:

[Craggenmore]

Falcon easy driver- why does it give you so much pleasure if the 380 goes to India?

It's the same pleasure felt when Spurs have their 'once every 12 year victory' over CFC.

:}:ok:;)

A day HYD once every 6 months will do me just fine - I miss the curry already :{

[donpizmeov]

Hang in there Falcon. Anyone who thought the 380 wouldn't grace the Indian shores lives under a rock.

Glofish, when talking of the great unw..., were you referring to Melbourne?:}

the Don

[fatbus]

"Fact 1
EK have ordered the number of 380's it has for the express purpose of operating a considerable number to India."

Ya right!

Thanks for the laugh.

BTW someone asked if you can block a poster , yes you can.

[falconeasydriver]

At the risk of being called names again.

Emirates, owner of the world’s largest fleet of A380s, anticipates strong demand for the superjumbo in the country, Tim Clark, president of the airline, said in an interview.
“We want to take the A380 to India. It would be hugely popular,” Clark said. “Our expansion plans depend on the Indian government -- they make the call on whether we can increase our frequencies.”

Fatbus, this was the direct quote about a year ago, perhaps I'm putting 2 and 2 together to get 7?
I stand by my contention that a considerable number of 380's will end up in a high density config suitable for up to 7-8hr missions, many of which will include India.
Please a note to my detractors, no attempts at humour, merely directly attributable quotes and facts.

Craggy, you've got it in one :}:E:8

[glofish]

Glofish, when talking of the great unw..., were you referring to Melbourne?

Good one don! lol.

But I dare not continue to run the gag here ....

g'day mate

[GMC1500]

You're a bit high on your 258000kg/hr for 3 777er's. More like 7 tons per hr per plane, which totals 21000.
I've been told the 380 burns between 12-14 tons per hour depending on the weight. Basic fact.

[White Knight]

11-13 tonnes for "off the top of the head" calcs actually. And with 90 (14/76)potential premium pax I'd say that's jolly good income:D:D That'll be compared to 7 tonnes for 50 (at 8/42 layout).

So really 'swings and roundabouts'. Why don't we leave it to 'commercial' to make money from ALL of the fleets heh?

Of course the 380 will go to India. Biggest market after London... Or is it the same market:D:}

[White Knight]

Or do I mean Manchester??????

[donpizmeov]

Good point and well presented GMC.

I was comparing the 380 vs 773ER on ULR (syd and JFK using Flight plan fuel burn/time). For the 777 to burn 7T/hr you would need a 772 to fly a shorter sector such as LHR. So therefore it would be 11.2t/hr for 1 x 380 at 527 seats, and 14t/hr for 2 x 772LR at 520 seats. Of course there are extra crew, handling, slot, lease etc etc expenses for the extra 777, but individually the 777 does burn less gas. :ugh:

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

The Don :E

[nolimitholdem]

If we're gonna play games with numbers at least include them all, I'd imagine a 380 also has higher landing fees (based on weight) and higher crew costs per flight (they DO give each CC their own hotel room, no? Although I understand the shower girls bunk together - lovely). Trucking around showers and water and all that dead space (ie forward stairs) doesn't exactly scream efficiency in motion. And I'm no accountant but a little logic might suggest that engine maintenance cost on the 380 might be, oh, around double as well.

Point being that the little ditty about "2 flights with this a/c = 3 flights with that a/c" isn't quite as simplistic as it's presented, as much as wishful thinking might want it to be. It IS kinda flattering to have 380 guys poring over B777 flight plans though.

And I do agree with falconeasydriver, it's pretty funny to wind guys up and watch them go! At what point did people start to take the internet seriously?!

[ironbutt57]

showers and bars and crew rest facilities.....out, seats and cargo space increased...

[White Knight]

It IS kinda flattering to have 380 guys poring over B777 flight plans though.


Not me, but more flattering to see 777 pilots enjoying the lounge bar on the 380:}:}... But back to the main thrust of the post you still miss the point; if EK weren't making money with any of the fleets they would can them! Showers, bars, freight space, fees, whatever...

Hey Falcon, I like your humorous banter:ok:

[scandistralian]

How is it, that it takes hundreds of staff working full time at EGHQ to make fleet/route/commercial decisions, but they could hire any one of us to run the whole show, and do a much better job for much less?... :ugh:

[glofish]

if EK weren't making money with any of the fleets they would can them!

I just wonder if you really believe in that WK.

There is a sort of trapped commitment once someone has ordered, boasted himself about and so much praised a product.

How would EK be able to can the dugong (or for that matter the T7) having so many in service and on contracted order? Look at the guzzling 345's, they'd rather get rid of them today, but have to stick to them, who would take them anyway!

We're stuck with what we have, therefore the dugongs have to be profitable, whatever the real numbers would reveal.

If for one moment anyone believes what comes out of EKs spinning wheel, I question his sanity.

I stick to what I can see and read and thereby adopt an "informed opinion".
Anyone can do that and have his own opinion, but there is less room for a spin on hard facts concerning consumption.

As to yield and profit, this eludes me, certainly, but for that: See above ......

The dugong seems to work at the moment, but I keep my doubts, especially about ordering some more.

[White Knight]

I stick to what I can see and read and thereby adopt an "informed opinion".

As do I... Just our "informed opinions" differ heh?

[donpizmeov]

Too right Glofish. There is a lot of whose watch is bigger attitude around this region. I think the only deliveries that were canceled/swapped for something else while I have been here would be the 346 and the 748.

Now if only we had aeroplanes that could fly with full seats to help with staff travel. Can I also ask for cheaper beer and more days off as well?

The Don

[glofish]

As do I... Just our "informed opinions" differ heh?

Ay, but that's a good thing! Better differing informed opinions that consenting uninformed ones ......

Now if only we had aeroplanes that could fly with full seats to help with staff travel

Ay again, and the suitcases in the belly ......

Off for the free beer in the lounge. :ok: