Voyager Sponsored Reserves Awarded "Wings"

[RAFEngO74to09]

Voyager Sponsored Reserves awarded their "wings".

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | History and Honour | Sponsored reservists honoured for work with RAF (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/HistoryAndHonour/SponsoredReservistsHonouredForWorkWithRaf.htm)

[charliegolf]

Good luck to them. No doubt someone will think it quite wrong because they have not done some training or other. If it looks like an RAF pilot, flies like an RAF pilot, and flies an RAF 'plane with other RAF pilots... Then it is!

CG

[Stuff]

What do the wings say in the middle?

I assume it's a 'proper' set of RAF wings but I did once know a pilot who, despite being a reservist and flying real RAF aircraft in RAF uniform sported a splendid set of wings with 'VR' in the middle.

[P6 Driver]

Some presentation photos are on the link...

Local Pilots are Honoured by the RAF (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/local-pilots-are-honoured-by-the-raf-26092012)

[Tourist]

Guys, it's ok.
They are not "real" wings.:E

[Yellow Sun]

Some presentation photos are on the link...

OMG the Screaming Skull!!

YS

[airborne_artist]

But what colour are they? ;)

[Ken Scott]

Would it be correct to assume that part of the savings of having SRs rather than regulars is not having to provide them with a set of No 1s......?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Obviously photoshopped pictures of the wings presentation. How else do you explain the fact that Osby has exactly the same pose and facial expression in each picture? Or is Madame Tussauds now doing waxworks of senior officers? :}

[Just This Once...]

So that's what Osby looks like when he is not swearing!

Bloody good bloke though.

[Courtney Mil]

So why not contract out all our aircrew requirements? Save a fortune in housing, pensions, medical care, etc. Thin end of the wedge.

[TEEEJ]

Roland,
They are all different. Why not give the civilian photographer a ring?

Jeffrey's Exif viewer (http://regex.info/exif.cgi?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raf.mod.uk%2Frafcms%2Fmedia files%2F198E6376_5056_A318_A8235AD4915C452B.jpg)

[Roadster280]

I thought that hideous V-neck thing had been ****canned in favour of a return to the military style?

[Laarbruch72]

I thought that hideous V-neck thing had been ****canned in favour of a return to the military style?

Which year's issue of the hideous V-neck thing are we talking, you've got a choice of about 4 "new issues" (starting in about 1993) and about 4 subsequent "****cannings" in recent times (say 2 decades, and they all looked similar). They're already talking about ****canning the "new" roundneck as it doesn't hold a tie very well. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

[November4]

C'mon....You don't get promoted unless you make a change....think it was something like through my 22 years

Round neck ribbed
V-Neck ribbed (straight join to V)
V-Neck ribbed (cross over join to V)
V-Neck smooth

followed by

Round neck ribbed...

Each change co-coincided with the change over of SO 31 Dir Clothing (or what the title was)

Wheels....must really try the square version one day to see if it is better.

Oh and nice to see the jerseys in the photos are the stretch version ;)

[maximo ping]

So that's what Osby looks like when he is not swearing!


Bet he was swearing on the inside...

[Art Field]

Good luck to the Trio. I notice that all three have a multi company background, let us hope they will stay at it. I would like to know whether they will do any of the tanking sorties, whenever that may be.

[Training Risky]

Hmmm...

On the one hand, in 1940 men were given a few weeks of drill, thrown a uniform to wear and hey presto...they were 'in the RAF'. A few flying hours later and they were on the frontline in an unfamiliar type. NOBODY would dare question their credentials to wear wings and be 'in the RAF'.

However, these guys at Brize have essentially bought their wings by paying for their licences, paying for a type rating and gaining employment with a commercial company. It has been legitimised by giving them them the same level of military training given to a desperately needed acting Pilot Officer in 1940.

Do we by extension claim that the civilians who held a CPL/IR at JEFTS were RAF pilots because If it looks like an RAF pilot, flies like an RAF pilot, and flies an RAF 'plane with other RAF pilots they were therefore RAF pilots?

It's a slippery slope!

[lj101]

I would like to know whether they will do any of the tanking sorties, whenever that may be

Unless they've decided otherwise recently, currency was to be 2 towlines a year only. Having said that they have some ex VC10 (D*** H***) amongst their numbers and D was one of the best trail captains we ever had. Hopefully he will be allowed to do trails.

[Yellow Sun]

Good luck to the Trio. I notice that all three have a multi company background, let us hope they will stay at it.

Not quite the case Art. One has worked for a number of companies but the other two have only worked for one; the same one.

Training Risky

I understand the point that you are making; and I sympathise; but fear that you may be being bit unfair to the individuals concerned. I can speak for two out of the three and they have never paid for a type rating. I know that one did pay for his commercial training, but that was funded by his first aviation related (and maybe more lucrative) career. His background experience does bring something very useful to the table.

From my personal acquaintance with two of the three, I have no issues with them wearing the same badge that I wore. I don't know the other individual so shall not comment.

Slippery slope or not? Well it could be, but if all military pilots have their training recognised as qualification for (near) automatic issue of a commercial licence.....?

YS

[Uncle Ginsters]

Well done to them.

It's a shame the RAF/CAA can't see fit to work the same in reverse with the award, partial or otherwise, of an ATPL...but that's another thread entirely:ugh:

[Art Field]

My apologies to the gentlemen for engaging laptop before now rapidly ageing brain.
However, although many years now removed from active tanker ops I would argue that two AAR sorties a year for currency is barely sufficient for the Ace Operators, of whjch there are few,(how easy it was for ij101 to pick one out).
I appreciate,as told by an AOC that the RAF can no longer afford the Rolls Royce solution to training and Voyager will have magic machines for everything but it all comes down to the operator in the end and their understanding and reaction to the situatioin which can only come from training.

[Hueymeister]

I get why this has been done, the guys are going to (eventually) operate the same aircraft with military selected and trained crew; there shouldn't be a 'them and us' atmosphere on the Voyager fleet and they have to be fully integrated, so this will be a thing of the future construct of Mil/Civ partnerships.

I'm old-school on this one; a bit of luck, a lot of hard work, grit and determination got me my coveted wings, It's a select 'club,' that those of us lucky enough to wear the brevet, should look to guard with pride. Maybe they had a go at OASC and didn't make it, maybe they just chose civilian aviation instead. It's not a slight on their ability or commitment to their reserve status, but I don't think they should wear 'our' wings...

I look forward to hearing their opinions in the bar over a beer....

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Heuymeister,
I do NOT know what selection and training process these Sponsored Reservists went through. I understand that OASC and OACTU were involved in looking at the process, but I do not know what came of this.

However I DO know that those going into the first Sponsored Reserve unit in MoD (that was converted from an existing RAFVR unit,) have to undergo the full OASC selection and then pass the Specialist Entry Re-Entry course at OACTU at RAFC Cranwell. The RAF have failed some who were not up to the mark, and re-coursed others who eventually passed, so in some cases getting a Commission as a RAFR (SR) is not just given away with the Corn Flakes.

[Libertine Winno]

Snoopy is correct, the Sponsored Reservists have to go through the same 15 day basic recruit course at RAF Halton as the other reservists do, in addition to passing te 4 day OASC at Cranwell. Finally, they do a 20 week (I think) course at Cranwell, which is the same course as the commissioned reservist officers do.

People have failed selection, and will continue to do so if they do not meet the standard, both at Cranwell and indeed at Halton

[BEagle]

Hueymeister, I'm fully with you on this.

AirTanker Services are only doing what the MoD intended with the 'PFI' scheme, so no criticism of ATrS can really be justified.

But it's the whole ridiculous notion of the PFI scheme which is just fundamentally wrong. No other air force has gone down this flawed route, for very good reasons. The Australians observed the civil serpents at the Brizzle Waterworks faffing about with the scheme, went home and announced that it was an utter crock - 'PFI' standing for 'Poms are F*****g Idiots' in the antipodean vernacular!

FTRS, 'Sponsored Reservist' mercenaries and other patch-over-the-cracks attempts to save money really stick in the craw when capable young folk have been told they're surplus to requirements after completing their flying training.....:mad:

Then there's the complete and utter bolleaux of 'MFTS'.... Just what the hell is happening to a once proud air force?

[xenolith]

Why not bring back the Air Transport Auxiliary and issue their wings to these chaps who have gained a, meaningful, level of the relevant experience elsewhere.

I don't remember such a fuss when 'their airships' dished out FC and AT brevets to individuals who had not done aircrew selection or the NCO Aircrew initial training.

[BEagle]

I don't remember such a fuss when 'their airships' dished out FC and AT brevets to individuals who had not done aircrew selection or the NCO Aircrew initial training.

Well I do!

[Hueymeister]

Snoops and Wino,

I Get it, I really do; we're having to put some Airbus experience into Air Tanker. I'm not in any way being disparaging of those individuals, nor anyone who's been 'selected' for SR status. I just think we're 'cheapening' our standards in our way of doing business.

Moreover, I really feel for the 170 young guys and gals we recently let go. Not that can compare their experience against that of the Air Tanker SR's..just my opinion, that's all. :{

[Libertine Winno]

Huey,

I dont disagree with you, was merely confirming the process that the Sponsored Reservists have to go through in order to get their brevets and that I would assert they are not 'given away' as some seem to think.

Whether or not the PFI route is the correct route to go down, of course, is an entirely different conversation as to whether or not brevets are earned, and a conversation which I would imagine we will be singing from similar hymn sheets.

[VinRouge]

Any truth in the rumor that Air Tanker crews will be flying CAP371/EASA FTL and not 2GASOs?

[StopStart]

I understand the crews will be flying to CAP371/EASA FTLs when operating in their civvy uniforms, doing the routine strat stuff. AAR/trail etc stuff will generally be operated by the RAF crews although the ATr crews will work to GASOs etc when working as SRs.

The majority of tasking and rostering etc will also all be managed and run on a day to day basis by an ATr Ops cell rather than DSCOM (or whoever it is these days). This means it will probably work.

[Art Field]

I wonder how crewing will be decided, all RO and all AF. If one goes last minute sick so you wind up mixed crew whose rules do you work to, who decides crewiung priorities. It appears that ATr ops will run the show so there could be two masters for the aircrew to have to work for.

[maxaoa]

I can't imagine that these highly qualified individuals would work for the lowly wages of a Flt Lt. What pay scale are they on, and if it is different from their regular serving off siders won't that create some division?

[Dan Winterland]

It's going to have to be considerably more. I can't believe they took a pay drop for the pleasure of wearing RAF uniform and being the SDO. I did ask when they were advertising (out of interest - I wasn't really thinking of applyng) and couldn't get an answer. But if they wanted the experience to get the operation under way, they would have to at least match the pay of an A330 TIRE in the airlines, which in the UK won't be less than 100K. They won't be on RAF pay - that's for sure. An 8 year Flt Lt on the top rate flying pay earns the same as a year one A330 F/O in my company.

[BEagle]

Indeed, Dan. The thorny question of the PFI mercenaries' pay scales was an early point raised when the whole idea was first mooted....

A Virgin 747 captain said at the time (and this was over 10 years ago), that he'd need rather more than £100K to be persuaded to flog up and down to the South Atlantic driving a grey airliner as a 'sponsored reservist' mercenary.

[downsizer]

I wonder what the interaction between DSCOM and ATrOps will be like. I can't see a civvy company taking it dry like the rest of us do from DSCOM...

[StopStart]

I seem to recall that the pay wasn't too bad. I think FO started out at around about top Flt Lt money. In my short time in Civvy aviation I've come across plenty of people who've taken pay cuts to do a job they fancy. I currently regularly work with a guy who gave up foreign contracting on big money to take up a part time job just so he could live in a particular area of the country. It's not all about the money.

I have no idea about the background of any of these guys but what's not to say they haven't come from from Far or Mid East contracts, with bank accounts awash with money and now fancy flying with the RAF, something they perhaps missed out on earlier in life (caveat - I have no actual idea)? Or they're living in Oxon and are sick of driving to MAN or LGW?

[Libertine Winno]

The guys are paid on civilian wages, but this is paid by the civilian company (AirTanker) and not directly by the RAF, who pay a contract for service provision for the whole package.

Again, whether you agree with this process or not is a different story...!

[lj101]

Wee

We do have a fitness test yes: the airtanker reserves are 'special members', or so I am told, so not sure what exactly have they have to do to 'pass' their reserves course. A couple of ex RAF tanker mates (great operators)'are now reserves and they according to a reliable source, get very well paid. I haven't heard any bitching about comparative pay from their military colleagues.

DSCOM still task, timings are normally driven by the customer or airfield limitations/slots. The airtanker SQN will be working their own crew duty limits which aren't 2GASOs (at least from the paperwork I've seen which was sent to DSCOM as guide lines).

The RAF still look forward to using it for AAR, although the USAF are being scoped to 'mind the capability gap'.

All rumour of course.

[cessnapete]

I can see the advantage of a civilian setup for maintenance and training for the Voyager, as is carried out on several other aircraft types in RAF service.

Could someone explain the cost reasons why the MOD would want to employ civilian pilots to fly operational sorties? Presumably AirTanker have to pay the going rate for an equivalent airline salary (Virgin?) which is probably double the RAF Flt. Lt. salary. There have also been many surplus RAF trainees 'sacked, recently who could do the job much more cheaply when combined with the experienced ex VC10,TriStar etc. crews.

Pilots with no glass -cockpit experience, complete an Airbus type Rating course with no problems, coming out at the end of the Sim stage CatIII ready, and, with no Base Training, start on the Route training phase.

I can imagine interesting bar conversations when RAF crews meet up with the 'civvies' doing the same job for double the money!

[Roland Pulfrew]

I'm somewhat intrigued by this award. My understanding was that the issue of RAF pilots "wings" to SRs was specifically refused by the custodian of the RAF Flying Badge (Group Captain Flying Training - when we had the post); or has someone changed QRs (or was it MAFL?) to allow this to happen?

I thought the agreement reached was that SR pilots would wear ATr company wings when on military/SR duty, unless they had previously been awarded wings by the RAF, FAA or AAC in which case they could wear those when on military duty.

I've met some of the new SRs and they seem a good bunch, with lots of experience, but I, like others on here, think that this degrades the achievement of being awarded RAF "wings". And as for AAR currency once every 6 months - dream on!