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tomtytom
26th Sep 2012, 11:37
So you flying away on your hols and the announcementcomes over "is there a pilot on board please make themselves known tocabin crew",

You proudly stand up and state "I'm a pilot!" holding your brown PPLup

calmly walk to the front take control and cut a long story short end up beautifullylanding a B757 or A340 with help from air traffic.

What can you legally put in your log book and what would you really log?

I would definitely be putting down 1 landing at least

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 11:52
Tom

As you are not type rated on the aircraft you could not legally log the hours.
If you held a PPL and as a passenger the pilot dropped dead in an aircraft you were legally qualified to fly then you could record the hour.
As an ATP rated to fly corporate jets I could not record the hours if I landed a 757.
Good luck if it does happen and you answer the call :ok:

Pace

dash6
26th Sep 2012, 11:58
I reckon,as the only Pilot,you would be commander and therefore P1 regardless of type rating! (by the way,if you ever do get the chance,use the autopilot.)

tomtytom
26th Sep 2012, 11:58
I didnt think you could legally record anything but id still be putting something down in the log book! :)

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 12:08
Dash6

So George would be flying it not Tom? ;) maybe George could log the hours ? ;)

Pace

robin
26th Sep 2012, 12:21
That all assumes you make it safely down to earth - big assumption......:ok:

dublinpilot
26th Sep 2012, 12:40
Well I suppose that comes down to is a logbook a record of

1) flights flown, or
2) flights legally flown ;)

I can't see why you wouldn't be the commander in this case, and indeed as the commander you're allowed to break any law in the ANO required for the safety of the flight.....so perhaps it's not even illegal ;)

Personaly I'd certainly log it....it would be a good story ;)

Has this sort of thing ever happened outside the movies?

what next
26th Sep 2012, 12:45
Legally? Legally, your logbook is your own private property and you can write in there whatever you want.

The only reason that comes to (my) mind why one logs landings at all, is to prove that one stays within the 90 day rule. Since this rule rquires the 3 takeoffs and three landings within 90 days in an aircraft of the same type/class/category and your chances of doing the three takeoffs and another two landings in an airliner are faint, it makes no difference at all ;)

BTW: Did Capt. Sullenberger have a valid seaplane rating when he landed on the Hudson river? Did he log the ditching as waterlanding?

dash6
26th Sep 2012, 12:46
Who is George?

Dg800
26th Sep 2012, 12:50
Legally? Legally, your logbook is your own private property and you can write in there whatever you want.

Not really, your logbook is actually a legally binding document and making false entries is an offense (more or less serious, depending on the jurisdiction). If you then go and claim ratings or something similar based on those false entries it becomes an even more serious offense.

Has this sort of thing ever happened outside the movies? Not that I know of. There have been instances where a deadheading flight crew member has been called to assist in the flight deck because of incapacitation of one active crew member, although there was no such announcement over the PA in those cases as deadheading crew are manifested and also easily recognizable by means of the uniform they're still wearing. :ok:
I doubt even the most experienced PPLer would manage to pull off such a stunt in reality. He/she might try but it will most likely end in disaster.

Ciao,

Dg800

AfricanEagle
26th Sep 2012, 12:59
I would log it ... if I managed to land the aeroplane in one piece :)

To be honest I don't know how difficult it would be.

I've flown a 737 simulator and managed to take off, fly a circuit and land, all visual since I don't have an IFR rating. I flew the aeroplane as if it were an overgrown Cessna and the instructor said I did okay.

But in real life I expect things would be very different.

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 12:59
Who is George?

Dash6

George is a very old term used for an autopilot ;) I had a lovely old friend and ferry pilot who flew well into his late 70s before tragically being killed on one such ferry.
He used to tell his wife that he had a co pilot called George and not flying alone!

Pace

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 13:10
Tom

I hold an ATP and a current C500/550/560 type rating! If it was me called to the flight deck I could not record the times legally. They could not be added in anyway to my total times or used.
If I wanted to add them for posterity or for fun and clearly marked them as such that would probably be ok.
The biggest problem you would have if it happened for real would be that you would be completely out of your depth as a basic PPL.
That itself is not a criticism but stating a fact that you would quickly become overloaded with the panic of the situation and the amount of new information bombarding your mind and probably freeze or become brain inactive which I have seen with experienced overloaded pilots who become like information zombies :{

Pace

Exascot
26th Sep 2012, 14:00
Otto the autopilot - YouTube

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 14:06
Ha Ha Ha :) love that clip !

Otto is Georges younger Brother But George is the main guy take my word for it ;)

Pace

CharlieDeltaUK
26th Sep 2012, 14:08
I would definitely be putting down 1 landing at least

1 landing at least?....you reckon they'd be using you for the next leg and give you a chance to do landing #2 then?

If that call ever came, the only thing I'd be writing down is my will :{

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 14:11
CharlieDelta

The Bounces would be so big He would probably land at a few airports anyway before stopping :E so maybe 3 or 4 landings in one!!!

Pace

Fuji Abound
26th Sep 2012, 14:31
There is possibly an analogy.

You are wandering through the forest and the person in front keels over. You realise they have had a heart attack. You apply first aid on the basis you judge the situation to be life threatening and aid to be several hours away. Unfortunately it goes horribly wrong and the walker dies. The estate sues you. Are you liable? You were not "qualified" to provide treatment, but lets say you have had some training.

The House of Lords has said that in such circumstances an action deemed necessary but which would otherwise be illegal is a defence against the illegality.

So you accept command although not qualified to do so, but you accept command out of necessity, because there is no one better qualified. By analogy your actions are probably legal, and if you are legally in command you can log the flight.

In the alternative you leave George in charge but get on radio to ATC. You tell ATC that you want legal authority from the CAA to take command and if dont get it you will leave George to do his worst. ;) I wonder what the CAA would say? I wonder if they have authority to give you authority. I wonder what you would do if they refused authority?

pulse1
26th Sep 2012, 14:44
You are flying in IMC at night as a passenger in the right seat of an aircraft type which you are legally qualified to fly under VFR. The pilot becomes unconscious and you safely fly to the nearest airport and carry out an ILS to a successful landing. Can you book the night and instrument hours?

Fuji Abound
26th Sep 2012, 14:51
See my previous analogy - the realism makes no difference, the scenario is actually the same.

A better contrast would be between persons with and without any qualifications.

dublinpilot
26th Sep 2012, 15:12
I doubt even the most experienced PPLer would manage to pull off such a stunt in reality. He/she might try but it will most likely end in disaster.

Until last week I would have agreed with you.

But late last week, I got an hour in a full motion simulator for a 737-800. During that hour I carried out a number of landings, including some with IMC down to 600ft (I'm not IMC qualified).

While none of those landings were going to earn me an airline job, all were on the runway, all stopped on the runway, and none were are crash.

Now of course I had some significant advantages. I had an instructor in the right hand seat who was able to tune in the ILS for me, and give me some radar vectors to final. He also told me the appropriate speed to fly the approach at. But appart from that I was pretty much on my own.

Of course much of that could be gotten on the radio. ATC will be able to give you vectors to final, and surely there will be another type rated pilot on frequency to give the appropriate approach speed.

The things that will really work against you is
a) the fear factor. In reality this won't be a fun thing to do, but a life and death situation for you and about 200 other people, who are all counting on you.
b) the system. Figuring out how to tune in the ILS, set it up etc, adjust the screens will be very complicated while trying to fly the aircraft. If there were two PPL's on board, with one able to fly and the other free to communicate and try to work out how to enter appropriate frequencies etc I think the chances would be improved significantly. Fuel management might also be a significant issue if you were a long way from an airport. I've no idea what's involved there.

The lasting impression that I had was actually how similar a 737 was to a light aircraft. It had trottles, landing gear, flaps, a yoke, rudders and toe brakes. The basics weren't much different. What was harder though was the slower response times from the controls. I consistantly over controlled the aircraft on short final. Corrections need to be much smaller than on a light aircraft and that doesn't come naturally to a PPL.

So while I'm not nieve enough to think that I would perform as well in the real situation where many more factors come into play, I don't think that it would be as impossible as many (including myself until last week) would assume.

dp

Flyinganaes
26th Sep 2012, 15:31
Wasn't there an article in Pilot or Flyer magazine a couple of years ago where a PPL holder was put in a simulator and asked to land it from the cruise. If I remember rightly the first thing he did was try to contact ATC and inadvertently turned off the autopilot. However, after re-engaging the autopilot and successfully contacting ATC he was talked down to an acceptable landing.

dash6
26th Sep 2012, 15:33
Exactly Dublin.If you avoid the workload problem by leaving the autopilot engaged (Whatever it's name is.) and can work the radio to get the right advice,then you will probably be able to complete an auto land.
Then you can log it.
In general you can be proud of any landing where you can use the aircraft again.
That would IMHO not be the case if you tried to hand fly it!

riverrock83
26th Sep 2012, 15:34
The question is - did you "act as a member of the flight crew" on that flight.
(http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf article 79).
Article 50 says you need a licence to act as a member of the flight crew.

I'm sure somewhere else there is a "you can do anything you need to in an emergency to preserve life" or similar clause but I don't have it to hand.

I'm sure that once you say the magic words "mayday mayday mayday" then you can legally be a member of the flight crew, so everything would be legal http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gif and you can then log it - does someone have the reference?

jollyrog
26th Sep 2012, 15:36
I would write "hero" in my log book.

Sillert,V.I.
26th Sep 2012, 15:42
Exactly Dublin.If you avoid the workload problem by leaving the autopilot engaged (Whatever it's name is.) and can work the radio to get the right advice,then you will probably be able to complete an auto land.


I'd agree.

What would be harder for a PPL would be to land something smaller with less automation & nasty handling (a metroliner comes to mind).

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 15:49
So while I'm not nieve enough to think that I would perform as well in the real situation where many more factors come into play, I don't think that it would be as impossible as many (including myself until last week) would assume.

DublinPilot

You maybe right you maybe wrong! We do not know as the real life situation has not been tested.

My concern is not the fact that sitting in the comfort and safety of a sim with an instructor alongside probably making it happen but the reality factor and all the stress which would go with it!!!

I really have seen pilots in an over stress situation go blank and freeze.
One who I was right seating in a twin on a missed approach was visibly overloaded.

On telling him to go around he stared blankly pulled the nose up and that was it! No power, no gear, no flaps.

This was a multi rated IMCR pilot in a twin not a large airline.

I have seen an instructor after a long and difficult IMC flight get out and not remember his name!

A basic PPL thrown into a situation like that??? I would expect the blank stare locked mind syndrome unless he was a very very cool customer indeed.
If anything went wrong in his approach it would go very wrong very quickly!

I'm sure that once you say the magic words "mayday mayday mayday" then you can legally be a member of the flight crew, so everything would be legal and you can then log it - does someone have the reference?

I am sorry but that is not correct! Unless you are legally qualified to fly the aircraft you cannot legally log the hours so unless your PPL was type rated then the hours cannot be legally logged or used!



Pace

peterh337
26th Sep 2012, 15:50
It is crystal clear.

There is no doubt you can log it.

You can log anything you like.

It is 100% legal to write in your logbook that you flew as a passenger on Easyjet.

I know a bloke who logs passenger time in spamcans.

You just cannot use those entries towards any known pilot license or rating etc :) (because you haven't got a Type Rating for the plane).

What is illegal is to use log entries towards stuff which the credit is not applicable to. For all I know, your 737 cockpit time might count towards some Indian flight engineer license :)

As regards landing a 737, I did the same as Dublinpilot, in 2010 at Budapest, on a Malev 737 sim. I also had the RHS instructor who set things up, but I landed in OVC002 very easily. Not prettily but at least as well as some airline landings I've been on :)

This was all hand flying, but crucially with the auto throttle engaged the whole time.

It's easy to fly. What is hard is controlling altitude, in a plane with perhaps 1/3 of the vertical performance of an F16. You would definitely bust the LTMA if departing from Redhill :)

So the key would be working out what knobs do what. I reckon if you were handed the plane 5 mins before the juice ran out then you would crash it. But with more time, a private pilot familiar with reasonable GA avionics would be fine. Some idea of speeds would be essential e.g. a Vref of 140kt will work just fine.

Talking to ATC ASAP might be a good idea otherwise you might get shot down. I think you would get shot down if you headed for LGW or LHR (depending on circumstances). I would head for Manston :)

Above The Clouds
26th Sep 2012, 16:13
It is crystal clear.

There is no doubt you can log it.

You can log anything you like.

It is 100% legal to write in your logbook that you flew as a passenger on Easyjet.

I know a bloke who logs passenger time in spamcans.

You just cannot use those entries towards any known pilot license or rating etc (because you haven't got a Type Rating for the plane).

What is illegal is to use log entries towards stuff which the credit is not applicable to. For all I know, your 737 cockpit time might count towards some Indian flight engineer license



Peter337 that is 100% correct without question

Contact Approach
26th Sep 2012, 16:15
This is all I can say: PMDG Simulations (http://www.precisionmanuals.com/pages/product/ngx.html)

If you've experience with that, you could easily use the automatics to bring it down safely.

piperboy84
26th Sep 2012, 16:25
Has this sort of thing ever happened outside the movies?

I remember a story of something similar happening, where a family visiting Africa had chartered a large twin piston with a single crew, the pilot became incapacitated mid flight and the family's father stepped in to fly and land it, the ironic thing, if i am recalling the news story correctly , the man who stepped in the was Rowan Atkinson AKA Mr Bean !!!!

tomtytom
26th Sep 2012, 16:26
I would like to think a ppl with assistance from atc would have a much better chance of a firm landing with minimal undercarriage damage then joe public. I hope aviate navigate communicate would stick. I would be logging the flight and put a note in remarks a explanation. I guess you would be vectored onto a cat III B told what buttons to press by atc then try your best. Its the same principles just bigger and faster.

riverrock83
26th Sep 2012, 16:38
Wife lands plane after calling 911 - Video on NBCNews.com (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46945433)
BBC News - Elderly US woman lands plane after pilot-husband dies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17605770)
A pilot's unqualified wife landed the plane after he died at the controls. BBC version includes the fact that the plane was down to 1 engine, probably due to fuel starvation...

austerwobbler
26th Sep 2012, 16:58
I was a passenger on a flight in to Charles de Gaule when they announced " is there a Doctor on board " there was a passenger laid out on the floor in a real bad way, it was the fastest join, decend, land and taxi in to CDG I have ever had

Austerwobbler

tomtytom
26th Sep 2012, 17:03
Does atc have 'how to guides' to land a aircraft piloted by the joe public??

jollyrog
26th Sep 2012, 17:10
If it ever happens to me, I'm sticking to an airfield I know well. My 747 will be going to Headcorn.

Sillert,V.I.
26th Sep 2012, 17:11
It's happened for real in a KingAir. this

tomtytom
26th Sep 2012, 18:26
If it ever happens to me, I'm sticking to an airfield I know well. My 747 will be going to Headcorn.

:) this is mayday boeing 747 requesting overhead join :p

Call downwind report final and fly a slightly larger traffic pattern then normal :)

Kolossi
26th Sep 2012, 19:31
Negative, no overhead joins at Headcorn due parachutes in the air!

Fuji Abound
26th Sep 2012, 20:08
There are three issues that will "catch out" most PPLs.

1. If you get behind the curve and need to apply power you will struggle with the time it takes for the engines to spool up,
2. Inevitably you will struggle with the systems,
3. You will have hit the runway way before you think you should.

Keep the don nut in place, have someone manage the systems and "flare" (not that you really flare in the way you are accustom), and chances are it will be work man like if not pretty.

dash6
26th Sep 2012, 21:37
Peerh's. Crucially do not use the auto thrust while in manual flight. The thrust couples will confuse the wassname out of you,if the grotesque handling of the beast has not already done your head in!

Armchairflyer
26th Sep 2012, 21:57
Being PPL- and PMDG-endowed I am quite confident that I could autoland(!) a flawlessly functioning 737 in favourable conditions (talkdown by ATC and maybe a 737 pilot, plenty of time for setting up the autopilot, someone to work the checklists with me, benign weather etc.). If someone can explain sufficiently well which buttons I need to push, it might work with another comparable jet as well. Trying a manual airliner landing without prior training would probably result in the plane looking like British Airways Flight 38 in the very best of circumstances. And of course, if anything goes sour, I'd be in over my head almost immediately.

And then there is always that unfortunate final twist in my fantasies of this kind: after keeping my nerves, finding out in time how to communicate with ATC, being successfully talked through all procedures, omitting no important checklist item, hitting no wrong button, keeping my hands off the control column and thrust levers and watching in awe and relief as the plane settles onto the runway and comes to a stop with smoking brakes (because I wouldn't dare to use the reversers) I get fancy and try to taxi the thing off the runway just to misjudge the first turn and get stuck in the grass and consequently laughed and frowned at (and probably sued, too) instead of hailed. Just as well that I don't travel by plane :E.

stickandrudderman
26th Sep 2012, 22:44
I've had a bash at a few circuits in an A320 sim at LHR.
I would say that the critical thing is to have radio contact.
If the correct frequency is already dialled in and you are able to make contact without touching anything except the PTT and ATC can get someone to talk you through, you have a chance of saving lives. You have zero chance of not damaging the aeroplane.
The biggest "gotcha" for me was the auto-throttles. I was nicely lined up with just a 100ft to go and didn't realise that I had to disconnect the auto throttles in order to land!

flybymike
26th Sep 2012, 23:04
I landed successfully, smoothly but long in a 767 sim at the old Hong Kong airport.
Ended up in the sea.......

Pace
26th Sep 2012, 23:33
Question I have to ask therefore as many seem to think anyone can do it! Why bother with the basic PPL just get one of the cabin crew to do it!
They would be just as successful?

Pace

dash6
26th Sep 2012, 23:47
Hmm...Well some operators used to include cabin crew in sim training,and give instruction on use of radio,so you might be right.
Does anyone know if this still happens?

mad_jock
27th Sep 2012, 05:19
Well as a line trainer.

Shall we say that a commercial pilot in there first job after completing the type rating in the sim and having done 6 circuits it needs a whole load of factors in there favour to be able to pull a solo approach off. Twin instructors fare much better but even they can get there knickers in a twist. Its usually 50-60 landings before things become safe and over a 100 before the more challanging wx conditions can be explored.

Personally I think I might be able to get it close to the ground with those types, But the next part would get a bit messy, either a tail strike, ramming the nose gear through the floor or off the side/end.

If someone was on box two telling me which buttons to press for the auto land we would pull it off I suspect. And if we had a 15 year old MSFX 10000 pilot in the RHS that would help as well.

Pontius
27th Sep 2012, 06:08
Assuming you are able to make radio contact you are not going to be physically landing the aircraft. The autopilot will already be engaged and you'll be told how to use the hdg sel knob to turn the aircraft, the fl chg button to descend the aircraft, the speed knob to reduce speed, the flap lever to extend the flaps and the gear likewise. You'll be told how to select the autobrake and then you'll be left sitting there and watching the thing autoland and then stop on the runway. Finally you'll be told how to set the parking brake, start the APU and then shut down the engines.

You'll get a gold star from your teacher and be mentioned in the Daily Mail dispatches.

I could genuinely talk any reasonably savvy person through this operation but would much prefer someone, such as a PPL holder, who has an idea of what is going on even if he/she doesn't understand all the banter.

As for logging it; fill yer boots. You'd have helped save a bunch of people so if it makes you feel good then write it in your logbook. You can't count the time towards any totals but it'll certainly break the list of Cessna in the 'type' column :ok:

mad_jock
27th Sep 2012, 06:34
I reckon it would be easier with one of those big lots of automatics CAT III machines than the regional aircraft which don't have autoland.

I would agree about logging it. I don't think anyone would care and I suspect there would be quite a few CAA flight ops inpsectors would be more than happy to sign it off as "hours checked and certified" afterwards as well if you saved the day.

Pace
27th Sep 2012, 07:10
And of course this all depends on whether the aircraft actually is auto land capable as well as the airport you are arriving at?
No problems in Europe but would be going on holiday and at the end of a flight to Bongo land !

Pace

Exascot
27th Sep 2012, 07:42
I landed successfully, smoothly but long in a 767 sim at the old Hong Kong airport.
Ended up in the sea.......

Have they rebuilt Hounslow yet since I took it out with Concorde over-running at LHR?

I blamed my 1st officer. It didn't wash though - it was the late Capt Trubshaw. All he said was, 'I told you keep the nose up' :O

My barrel roll was quite successful though :ok:

Dg800
27th Sep 2012, 08:25
Wife lands plane after calling 911 - Video on NBCNews.com (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46945433)
BBC News - Elderly US woman lands plane after pilot-husband dies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17605770)
A pilot's unqualified wife landed the plane after he died at the controls. BBC version includes the fact that the plane was down to 1 engine, probably due to fuel starvation... Besides the fact that they weren't exactly flying a 737, it's become known that she used to have a valid PPL, she just had let it expire some years previously either because she lost interest in flying or because she couldn't get her medical renewed. So, hardly an unqualified average Joe (or Jane, as in this case). Despite her previous experience she did trash the plane on landing to some extent and also risked a double engine failure due to improper fuel management. :}

Pace
27th Sep 2012, 08:45
A case of nothing is ever as it seems even the KingAir Pax was a single engine pilot oh well makes a good story and we never believe everything the media say do we ??
Regardless for an elderly lady with the stress of seeing her husband collapse she did a good job holding things together!

Pace

Fuji Abound
27th Sep 2012, 11:05
I listened to the King Air sequence - it is interesting.

It seems to me the pilot did a really good job. A much better job than I would have expected for someone who really had no twin time, and an incredible job if he had not been a SEP pilot. I think it is fair to say that the "step up" from a single to a twin is quite big, if only for the first few hours.

It also struck me that ATC didn't respond in the way I would have expected. ATC appeared to frequently misunderstand the pilot's request when they seemed very clear to me. ATC also seemed to take a great deal longer to get rid of the other traffic.

ATC also didnt seem to take any account of whether a turn or climb would take the pilot into IMC, something I would have thought you would want to avoid at all cost given he was hand flying. Maybe they were that certain that IMC was not a risk.

foxtrot-oscar
28th Sep 2012, 14:59
I did a stint in a full motion trident sim and did quite well in that, on one occasion some professionals I was with got a bit pissed off with me greasing onto the runway and gave me 50 knot wind shear 100 feet up from the threshold. On that occasion I just managed to get it very quickly to the scene of the accident.

A more interesting question surely is this:
If the crew have in effect abandoned the ship, well they’ve died right? Then can I (as I could for a sea vessel) claim salvage of the aircraft in question, if so, it would be on e-bay the very next day.......:)

ShyTorque
28th Sep 2012, 16:10
Log the time? Certain airlines would send you a bill for the time flown, extra fuel used over company minimums and any repair costs.... ;)

Mike N
28th Sep 2012, 18:33
No Offence Tom but I'm astonished that the question you ask is whether you can log it!! I suppose you might ask ATC if they know of any good dry cleaners locally..

PompeyPaul
29th Sep 2012, 08:14
3 PPLs had a go in the 747 sim up at Gatwick. We had an instructor and pretty much everyone wanted to know the question, could I land it if I had to with only being talked down?

All 3 of us landed on the runway safely.

Now that was decent flying conditions & CAVOK.

I found the 747 to be recognisable, stalls were recognisable from the high nose attitude and recovery was the same as a pa28.

Whilst I am sure a PPL could NOT hand fly IMC for any amount of time, certainly hand flying for a few minutes was possible.

I am sure if radio comms were established then a PPL could put it on the ground, using auto pilot. A PPL knows what the transponder looks like and how to squawk 7700 and if no reply to dial 121.5

From my brief 20 mins in the cockpit I could certainly recognise the transponder.

So a rather unscientific test suggests in good flying conditions a PPL could put it on the ground and people would survive.

mad_jock
29th Sep 2012, 08:25
From a pratical point of view sims are very good at procedure training they are a computer game but a very usefull one. If you put a unqualified sim technician in the seat he will be able the out perform alot of crew especially in engine out procedures.

Real life real wx not a chance in hell unless you can use the computers to turn it into a game. If it is not a CAT III aircraft you would have to be extremely lucky to pull it off.

As a CAT turboprop Captain I wouldn't think I wouldn't be able to do it without autoland and I have getting on for 8000 instrument approaches under my belt in all sorts of wx.

The sim guys are always nice to the un-educated. A couple of button pushes and they can turn it into a completely different beast which they frequently do when the Captain is flying. You would think its a different aircraft when the FO is doing there bit.

Pace
29th Sep 2012, 08:32
They are different! for a start and this is a big important bit the sim has no inertia the real aircraft and you have tons of it.
Sim really are glorified MSFS with a real cockpit and they go up and down and left and right.
I would concur with MJ. He and I might make a safe landing if we were not fighting over who had control:E

Pace

mad_jock
29th Sep 2012, 08:37
Always a fun game is both roll and elevator jam but one person has the pitch and the other the roll after disconnect.

Who then gets the power levers and who gets the rudders.

First time we did it, it was a bit of fun and we managed a max xwind landing and even a windshear event.

Conclusion afterwards was it was actually a good CRM training session more than any benefit from the flying skill side of things.

Anyway you could have control.

Its a bit like who gets to treat Prince Philip, nobody wants to have that one on there record if they ahave 20 years plus left to go for a career :p

mm_flynn
29th Sep 2012, 15:21
They are different! for a start and this is a big important bit the sim has no inertia the real aircraft and you have tons of it.
Sim really are glorified MSFS with a real cockpit and they go up and down and left and right.
I would concur with MJ. He and I might make a safe landing if we were not fighting over who had control:E

Pace
I would be absolutely astounded if the simulation didn't reasonably faithfully handle the inertia - Otherwise windshear exercises in the sim would be trivial (you would momentarily loose speed then like magic be back up to the previous airspeed).

I am not a training captain with x000s of hours and only have the sim hours I did for my IR (basically a procedural simulator) and a couple of joy rides in an a 320 sim at LHR. I found the procedure trainer quite a bit more twitchy in pitch than a real light aircraft (probably due to the lack of G feedback from pitch changes). But the A 320 reasonably OK (as it does have some reasonable feedback of G changes). While I have no idea if the a 320 has a 'game/captain' switch that makes it 'easy', in the configuration I was provided (sitting on a taxi way engines running FMS loaded with a SID and the destination), it was reasonably straightforward to taxi out, departure, follow the SID, due a bit of airwork and then manually land off the ILS (in VMC, but it was loaded so I could track the localiser and glideslope) and purely visually.

The main thing I remember about the throttles was 'when the aircraft calls you a retard it is time to close the throttles and flair' - I have a suspicion on the Airbus the 'manual' flight still has auto throttle to manage your speed on approach as it seemed very easy.

peterh337
29th Sep 2012, 20:44
Of course full motion sims simulate aircraft inertia :ugh:

And yes auto throttle is the default mode in "hand flying" :)

Piper19
29th Sep 2012, 21:08
I regularly have the chance to do some flying in a real level D 767 sim. The first time I did this was when I had about 250 hours as PPL on Cessna's. To put short, I was not able to land the beast back then, even I did know the aircraft systems very well (e.g. no problem to program the FMC etc).
During takeoff I was kinda surprised about the effort needed to stay on centreline at those faster speeds, maybe also because of the acceleration feeling that you don't have in small planes. During landing I was way too slow with throttle adjustments, so I stalled it at 1000ft. An airliner needs more energy management and reacting before things happen.
The second time I put it down quite well, but when A real pilot faints and the stewardess asks you to fly it, you only get 1 chance.

India Four Two
30th Sep 2012, 05:02
Fascinating thread. I've also had a few sim rides, ranging from a Gnat (now that was interesting!) to a Level D 737NG and managed a night IGS into Kai Tak without requiring a life-jacket ;)

If I was faced with this scenario, and there was a successful outcome, I would not be worried about whether I could log the time.

I would be more worried about what to say when a very grateful airline manager tries to give me a life-time First Class pass as a thank you gift.

The correct answer is "No thanks, talk to my lawyer about my salvage claim," :E

Above The Clouds
30th Sep 2012, 06:42
I would be more worried about what to say when a very grateful airline manager tries to give me a life-time First Class pass as a thank you gift.

First class on Ryanair :{

AN2 Driver
30th Sep 2012, 08:07
In today's security environment the major hurdle might be for anyone letting a prospective PPL hero onto the flight deck in the first place, plus ATC and the MOD flipping out and sending fighters up to "assist".

Other than that, there are PPL's and PPL's.

A PPL with a couple of hundred hours on a complex plane and the benefit of high fidelity flight sim experience could almost certainly pull it off, provided the airplane is in a workable shape. If that PPL has a multi engine and IR additionally to that experience so much the better. Someone whose idea of a complex airplane is a Cessna 172, probably not.

It is not such a big thing to fly a normally working airliner, but everything you know more than the next guy will help.

Closest thing I ever came to doing something like that was in an A320 sim. We had booked a different airplane type but that sim went tech, so they offered us the A320. The instructor however said he had no idea how the A320 works but could run the instructor station only. I took on the challenge and it worked out just fine, thanks to an A320 simulation I had tested and flown a lot on a PC sim. We did 3 hours and about 10 extended circuits, both VMC and IMC. My "FO"s were total rookies who had no licenses nor ratings nor experience. I did the first few myself and then assisted the others. Great experience.

Apart from that experience, I've handled sims for most of the commonly available airliners and as long as the airplane works, I'd not be overly concerned if I had to do the real thing, yet of course I hope it will never happen. I've had one MD80 sim which was sufficiently tech that that 4 hour session turned into serious work. AP defective, FD broken on one side and a few other snags... ended up handflying it for the whole time and raw data too. We didn't bend it despite of that.

If anyone wants to "prepare" for such an eventuality, it might help to put together a couple of key points for each airplane on travels on. I've seen such checklists done for people who had to do sim checks to be accepted for an airline. These little gems help a lot, I use them in software testing whenever I don't get proper docs with the software.

As others have said here, the major problem will be nerves and the said security concerns. Which cabin crew these days would let a perfect stranger into the FD?

riverrock83
30th Sep 2012, 13:16
There have been a number of occasions in which a cabin crew member has "helped" after one of the two cockpit members. Can't see a passenger being allowed to do this:
Flight Attendant Lands Plane in a Pinch (http://video.foxnews.com/v/4243307/flight-attendant-lands-plane-in-a-pinch/) / Flight attendant helps land plane at O'Hare [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-418333.html)
Air Canada flight attendant helped land plane after co-pilot breakdown: report - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2008/11/19/aircanada-report.html)

They both had CPLs - but a bit different. I doubt that would happen in the UK though (and I doubt even more whether a passenger would be asked to do the same job!

vee-tail-1
30th Sep 2012, 14:08
Nice to know this topic keeps coming up ... and the same optimistic ppls reply. But hey! it might just be possible to land an Airbus if both pilots have died, the ppl has lots of MSFS experience, the aircraft is operating in normal mode, the emergency happened conveniently near the destination airport, you are in touch with ATC, and the wx is good.
But what if it's at night in the ITCZ, the weather is appalling, you are more than 2 hours flying time from land, your nav systems are degraded, the only ATC available is HF sideband radio, and you are 'hand flying' due to degraded sensor inputs. Dream on :cool:

abgd
1st Oct 2012, 02:16
Apparently when the call goes out 'is there a doctor on board?' a substantial proportion of the people who volunteer... aren't. Something like one in ten, off the top of my head. As a result of this, cabin crew often have to ask for proof of medical training before accepting help, and inevitably many real doctors are turned down - which in an emergency can be quite a distressing thing for both doctor and patient.

I have a horrible feeling that if the call goes out, 'is there a pilot on board?' there would be an even higher proportion of impostors.

mad_jock
1st Oct 2012, 07:55
I would be absolutely astounded if the simulation didn't reasonably faithfully handle the inertia -

It sort of does.

But its very digital in responce ie you do the same thing 6 times in a row and the outcome will be the same. In a real aircraft do the same thing 6 times and you will get 6 slightly different results. Mainly due to the fact than an aircraft is flying in an analoge eviroment with a vast number of variables which the sim doesn't bother with for either they are to difficult to introduce or take to much computation time.

You have to learn to fly the sim after real flying. Alot of automatic responces in the aircraft play merry hell with the sim and you can end up over controlling. And vice versa some of the things you do in the sim won't have the desired effect in the aircraft. The sim is very much by numbers the aircraft more of a fluid control responce.