Aberporth Information 119.650

[Thatsthewaytodoit]

I was lucky enough to be invited to the excellent Wales Airspace Symposium at RAF Valley Last week. The aim of which was to find ways of minimising the risk of mid-air collisions in Wales.
After the varous presentation on how the Valley based units operate one of the best kept secrets in Wales was revealed - two gentlemen from Apberporth ATC told us about their operation, providing services to the ranges and Danger Areas D201 and D202, they then let the cat out of the bag by saying that they could and would offer radar services covering the whole of Wales west of airway N864 to any aircraft requesting a service.
Now to me, that is a major contribution to flight safety and should be known to anyone using the Welsh airspace which is busy with FJ and other military from Valley and elsewhere and the provision of a Traffic Service to all would be a welcome facility.
So if you want a heads up on "them thar Dragons" call Aberport Information on 119.650 - they will be looking forward to your call Monday to Friday 0800 -1700.

Fly Safe TTWTDI

[maxred]

Thanks for that. I have been using this service for a number of years, and yes the controllers have always been very accommodating.

When routing South to the Strumble VOR, the sea crossing helps greatly.

[jollyrog]

I didn't think an Information unit (FISOs) could offer RADAR services.

Are they about to become full ATC?

Aberporth is a good place, I landed there last year and was well looked after.

[chevvron]

Seems to be a bit of confusion here; Aberporth Info provide FISO service at West Wales Airport (Aberporth), while Aberporth Radar, a completely different unit (used to be staffed by NATS controllers and may still be), provide the DACS.

[2 sheds]

Aberporth Info provide FISO service at West Wales Airport (Aberporth), while Aberporth Radar, a completely different unit ... provide the DACS.

That is incorrect. The FIS (not FISO service) at West Wales Airport is "West Wales Information" on 122.150. The separate DACS unit is "Aberporth Information" on 119.650 - however, if the unit provides surveillance-based services, why is the callsign suffix not "... Radar"?

2 s

[toptobottom]

Interesting, but as a Welsh homeowner and rotary driver, not much use in reality. Fast jet trainers rattle through the mountains at a few hundred feet and at 10 miles per minute... While you're bimbling around, enjoying the view at 100kts, these chaps rely on the Mark I eyeball most of the time - and so should you.

I also visited Valley recently and got chatting to some of the Hawk jockeys there (nice chaps). The new T2 models have TCAS but again, that's only really useful at higher altitudes. They file flight plans, but admit they frequently deviate from these without notice. You could visit the MOD site (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/CorporatePublications/AirSafetyandAviationPublications/MilitaryLowFlying/OperationalLowFlyingTrainingTimetable.htm)for the low-level schedules or call Valley for Mach Loop, etc. timings, but even these change on the day, so can't be relied on.

[TCAS FAN]

If "Aberporth Information" are providing a surveillance service why aren't they calling themselves/ published in the AIP as "Aberporth Radar or Control"?

[arthur j negus esq]

The station ident used is Aberporth radar, unless surveillance services cannot be provided, in which case Aberporth information is used.

[TCAS FAN]

Arthur J '

It is time that the service provided is updated by amendment of the relevant AIP entires in the ENR Section. If a surveillance service is being provided, as it appears it is, it needs to be formally notified in the AIP.

All that is currently shown is "Aberporth Information". NATS (the Air Navigation Service Provider at Aberporth) needs to get their act together and stop relying on operational information being passed by word of mouth. They are required to have in place Safety and Quality Management Systems to sustain their ANSP Ceritification, appears that this is not being complied with.

[arthur j negus esq]

Arthur J '

It is time that the service provided is updated by amendment of the relevant AIP entires in the ENR Section. If a surveillance service is being provided, as it appears it is, it needs to be formally notified in the AIP.

All that is currently shown is "Aberporth Information". NATS (the Air Navigation Service Provider at Aberporth) needs to get their act together and stop relying on operational information being passed by word of mouth. They are required to have in place Safety and Quality Management Systems to sustain their ANSP Ceritification, appears that this is not being complied with.

I've rewritten this post several times to make it seem less argumentative.

The AIP is due to change shortly with regard to the danger areas, at the moment I don't know what the content will say. NATS do not provide a LARS service at Aberporth, ie they are not paid by the regulator to provide the service. However when the range is open and with sufficient staffing ATSOCAS are provided. Whilst this is generally mon- fri 9-5 this is not always the case, putting it in the AIP would be misleading.

Ps I can assure you all safety accountabilities are met.

[2 sheds]

Whilst this is generally mon- fri 9-5 this is not always the case, putting it in the AIP would be misleading.
But, appropriately qualified, it might just be useful!

2 s

[TCAS FAN]

Arthur J'

My point is that if a surveillance service is being provided, albeit with irregular hours, it should be notified in the AIP.

If my memory serves me correctly I recently heard a surveillance based DACS being provided to another aircraft for separation from a UAV.

The callsign "Aberporth Radar/Control" should accordingly be used and shown in the AIP. If hours are irregular the abbreviation "HO" to mean "service available to meet operational requirements" can be used.

[TCAS FAN]

Here we are almost four years on, according to the AIP its "Aberporth Information" controlling the Danger Areas, but they still insist on calling themselves "Aberporth Radar/Control". Surely the AIP should reflect the callsign that is in use, and indicative of the service that they are providing?

[chevvron]

It's up to the Manager ATS Aberporth Radar (who I believe is Man ATS Cardiff Airport - was Man ATS Farnborough until about 2003) to change it so moan to him. I agree it's highly misleading as the callsign 'Information' is usually associated with a non radar service provided by FISOs.

[TCAS FAN]

chevron

Aren't they supposed to have a Quality Management System to sustain an ANSP? Although after hearing about how the Aberporth Range is set up, MOD unit, civilian contractor (QinetiQ) and ATS provider a sub contractor (NATS) they may not even have an ANSP Certification!

[chevvron]

All I know is it was decided just after a certain person took over as 'Man ATS Farnborough and Ranges' that they would cease responsibility for the 'ranges' and Larkhill and Aberporth Ranges would be staffed by ATC personnel detached from Cardiff.
I forget what happened with Aberporth Airfield/West Wales Airport but as has been said, it is AFIS and separate from the radar unit whereas previously an EFSO (Experimental Flying Support Officer) from Farnborough with a FISO License used to provide leave relief and when he retired controllers from the radar unit used to provide relief for the one person in Aberporth Tower.

[TCAS FAN]

Chevvron

In the early 2000s MOD/QinetiQ decided that they did not need the airfield and it was accordingly sold off to the present operator West Wales Airport Ltd. This decision has been bitterly regretted by QinetiQ who did not see over the horizon to the advent of unmanned aircraft development.

Over the past few years QinetiQ's involvement in unmanned aircraft flying, and the revenue that it produces, has rapidly decreased in favour of management by West Wales Airport. If it was not for the current unmanned aircraft flying carried out at West Wales the continued existence of the Cardigan Bay Danger areas would come into doubt, due to the government's "use it or lose it" policy.

Full marks to the MD of West Wales Airport Ltd who had the vision to see the potential of the airfield, and adjacent Danger Areas for unmanned aircraft development. Despite multiple attempts by QinetiQ and their allies to block his development plans, including the new West Wales Radar, he has taken on the big boys and won. After dropping in to the airfield last week I understand that West Wales Radar will be managing the Danger Areas for most of next week - what's happening there? Is this the beginning of the end for "Aberporth Information" aka "Aberporth Radar"?

[TCAS FAN]

Have flown through the D201 and D202 Danger Areas recently receiving a DACS from "Aberporth Radar" (still "Aberporth Information" in the AIP, five years after "The AIP entry is due to change shortly..., post #10) and "West Wales Radar", which is now operational. Must say that I preferred "West Wales Radar", much more accommodating than Aberporth when UAVs are flying.

Appreciate that Aberporth operate the Danger Areas when dangerous activities (firing, bombing etc) are taking place and a DACS is not possible, but as it appears that the D201 areas now operate probably 90%+ of the time for UAV flying, and D202 areas only operate for UAV flying, still prefer West Wales Radar.

If you looking for a DACS (Danger Areas normally operate Monday to Friday) and are unsure who is operating the Danger Areas suggest a call to "West Wales Information" 122.150 MHZ. As the DAAIS provider they know who is managing what and if necessary put you to the correct frequency.

I understand that Aberporth are not operating for the next couple of months due to carrying some upgrades so all DACS will be provided during this time by West Radar 127.090 MHZ. Unfortunately a 8.33 KHZ channel as no 25 KHZ channels were available for them. If you are not yet 8.33 compliant call West Wales Info, they can often obtain a crossing/entry clearance for you.

[arthur j negus esq]

Have flown through the D201 and D202 Danger Areas recently receiving a DACS from "Aberporth Radar" (still "Aberporth Information" in the AIP, five years after "The AIP entry is due to change shortly..., post #10) and "West Wales Radar", which is now operational. Must say that I preferred "West Wales Radar", much more accommodating than Aberporth when UAVs

Surely that’s a rather a biased statement as you’re a West Wales Airport AFISO!

[chevvron]

It was an RAF radar unit callsign 'Western Radar' up until the early '70s when it transferred to MOD(PE).
As far as I'm aware,since then, NATS have always had the contract to supply ATC staff there in addition to staffing the airfield until that was sold to West Wales Airport Ltd. and comes under the admin umbrella of NATS Cardiff Airport who is the licensed ANSP

[TCAS FAN]

Chevvron

Not too sure what you are referring to. I understand that West Wales Radar is operated on behalf of West Wales Airport by Newquay ATC. The radar equipment is located on the airport and I believe that it was sold to West Wales by Cardiff when it became redundant.

[TCAS FAN]

arthur j negus esq

Not quite, but I have met all five of them over the years.

[arthur j negus esq]

That’s interesting, my internet search brought you up as someone that contracts for them.

[TCAS FAN]

In a past life would have loved to have done business with them, did try but was led to understand that they had all that they needed.

[arthur j negus esq]

In a past life would have loved to have done business with them, did try but was led to understand that they had all that they needed.

I’m not one for “outing” but you come up as someone with very close ties to WWA, and all you Du is come on here and Rant about Aberporth :*

[TCAS FAN]

Having a holiday home nearby, meeting the guys at the airport and having paid them quite a few bob in landing fees over the years is as close as it gets, but think I know who you refer to.

[25 DME FIX]

Post # 25


It would appear that this may be an attempt to "out" an identity and thereby contravene the pprune rules.


Mods can we have a ruling on this please?

[chevvron]

Chevvron

Not too sure what you are referring to. I understand that West Wales Radar is operated on behalf of West Wales Airport by Newquay ATC. The radar equipment is located on the airport and I believe that it was sold to West Wales by Cardiff when it became redundant.

I think I get your meaning now. There appear to be 2 competing radar units in the Aberporth area:
(1) that owned by Qinetiq and operated by NATS staff on 119.650 from the Qinetiq site (who incidentally, used to be Area Radar controllers rather than Approach radar ones- don't know if they still are) and
(2) that operated by WWA using a different radar head on the airfield itself and Newquay Airport employed controllers on 127.090 who presumably have Approach Radar ratings.
I know that the Qinetiq contract (which also used to cover Benbecula Range in the Hebrides) was up for renewal about 4 years ago as I was consulted by a potential bidder as regards suitable staff but I don't know who was awarded the contract.
Up to my retirement, (8 years ago so I'm a bit out of the loop) the Qinetiq owned Aberporth Radar was staffed by 3 ATCOs who did radar tracking/DACS using a modified Watchman Radar which had a longer range than the 'standard' version in order to provide overlapping radar cover with Llanbedr Radar (which could also have been a modified Watchman) in order to identify the Jindiviks etc launched from there, but of course all that changed when Qinetiq decided to close Llanbedr.(Thinks: with Qinetiq's increased use of Llandbedr recently, maybe they will establish another radar unit there) The radar equipment itself was all MOD supplied and owned.
I know nothing of the workings of West Wales Radar, but you say it has its own radar head on the airfield itself and using Newquay Airport controllers. So are they based on West Wales Airport or is the radar remoted to Newquay? (very expensive and hardly cost effective when you add SSR from a NATS source, the major expense being the BT telephone lines needed)
The only person I believe I know there is a FISO at WWA with whom I worked at Dunsfold back in 2012, although one of the FISOs I worked with at Fairoaks (now a bush pilot in Africa) also worked there.
For those who might be getting a bit confused by all this, the Qinetiq Aberporth site is situated about 2 miles north of WWA and is on a promontory on the coast just west of the village; both sites are clearly visible on FlashEarth or google Earth photos.

[TCAS FAN]

Chevvron

Yes it is two adjacent radars. The West Wales one is an ex Cardiff Marconi S511 and a new SSR mounted on top, so totally self contained, together with VHF transmitters/receivers. All piped back to Newquay.

From what I've heard it is a very cost effective arrangement, no overheads for locally based controllers and Newquay apparently with spare capacity to provide the radar service as/when required. A mini TC?

Know the FISOs, the ex Fairoaks one I believe is back from the warmth of flying in Botswana and shortly off to Antarctica next (British Antarctic Survey?), quite a difference!

[Commanche 250]

Gents and Ladies


As a pprune newbie please bear with me. Not wanting to get involved in a dispute that seems to be going on here, I would like to thank the West wales radar controller who permitted me to cross the Danger Areas last week.


I do not as yet have an 8.33 compliant radio but was still able to get a crossing as I have a Mode S transponder and was talking to another controller. Thanks guys I will be fitting a 8.33 soon and will be able to say "thankyou" in person.

[Quake]

So, can anyone confirm that the existance of a radar service (apart from London Info) in the Area?, I've been flying there for 9 years and it would be news to me.