How likely is a SAFA check? [Archive]

TWOTBAGS

21st Sep 2012, 12:55

We got done going into Stansted from Bordeaux in a non EU reg jet last year and a good friend of mine was done in Biggin coming from the US I believe also in a non EU reg machine.

On both occasions they said they were specifically waiting for the arrival. Make your own mind up what that means but we did have the a SAFA check list and it made the process relatively simple..... relatively :{

Either way it does happen, but how often who knows. I know of one guy done in Le Bouget but he got done for cabotage when the french were on that war path a few years back.

ksjc

21st Sep 2012, 13:01

Yes...of course.

I hear about nasty "gotchas" such as the inspector checking to ensure aircraft O2 level well below 100% to confirm crew use of masks required per FARs, and the like....

Are these urban legends or do the inspectors actually keep digging until they come up with something? I would like to think they are reasonable but have no idea.

what next

21st Sep 2012, 14:54

Hello!

Are these urban legends or do the inspectors actually keep digging until they come up with something? I would like to think they are reasonable but have no idea.

They always try hard to find something... Never heard about that oxygen thing through (under EU-OPS there is no requirement to use oxygen masks anyway).
I fly on 150 to 180 days every year and get a SAFA inspection maybe once per year. Don't argue or discuss with them - it's useless. It is best to wait until you get a copy of the inspection report a few weeks later through your aviation authority and then comment on all the findings. Usually most of them will go away that way.
Last time they complained about a bare-metal transponder antenna on the belly of our aircraft: "this will corrode quickly and stop working" the inspector told me. I took a close-up photo of the antenna (including the "do not paint" label) and attached it to my comments of the report.

Happy landings
Max

His dudeness

21st Sep 2012, 15:13

I took a close-up photo of the antenna (including the "do not paint" label) and attached it to my comments of the report.

Thats a real classic... any comments by the authority on that ?

I do know of an occasion when the SAFA dudes went ballistic cause on of the oxygen bottles of a Sovereign was empty. The other one was filled and working and the second bottle is just an option, so the airplane is certified also with only one bottle installed. This created a lot of paperwork I was told...

Can these guys actually enforce FARs ? Genuine question...

what next

21st Sep 2012, 15:31

Thats a real classic... any comments by the authority on that ?

No, unfortunately not. But I think I may have heard some laughter from 500km away :O (one of them once told me privately how fed-up he is with all that useless crappy stupid paperwork he gets by French SAFA inspectors - but probably the French CAA says the same about German SAFA people).

But one small thing comes to mind to really look after: If you use loose pieces of paper in the cockpit, like the usual tables with climb and cruise power settings copied from the aircraft manual, then make sure that you copy the entire manual page. With header and footer line showing clearly which manual it was copied from. Otherwise that's an easy finding for them that you won't be able to discuss away.

Captain Kaboom

21st Sep 2012, 15:58

Happened for real, landed in Munchen with a corporate jet registered in Europe.
The sticker on the emergency door handle was worn out.
I pointed out that above this same handle there were 2 fluorscent shields pointing out the very same door......

He fell big time over the worn out sticker.

And he got excited that we didn't have a cargo net in the bagage space compartment of our modest LJ60.
After pointing out that with 2 suitcases (or so) the "cargo" is stuck anyways in place and the bagage compartment is seperated from the cabin and help from his more realistic partner the sticker was the only big violation...

Well, if that was the worst thing they coould find, I think we did great.

Just illustrating that some inspectors are searching for anything.

Take care CK

mutt

21st Sep 2012, 16:26

How about "prove to us that you are going to burn ALL your taxi fuel and not exceed the takeoff weight"....

Or if you are operating with two licences, FAA and JAA (Or whatever), then only show them the one associated with the aircraft registration, especially if one is imperial and the other metric. Finding, flight crew may get confused between 100 kgs and 220 lbs.

As for the O2 usage, we always heard that about FAA ramp inspections, not European.

Mutt

Doodlebug

21st Sep 2012, 18:14

We had one of these types break into an exited, predatory sweat when he noted how 'bent' the winglet was. When we politely pointed out to him that the other winglet was 'bent' the exact same way, one could smell his disappointment. LFMN, of course. Tread lightly in Le Bourget and Chambery, too. Vienna a close second.

ksjc

21st Sep 2012, 18:42

Thanks all for the replies. Very informative. I will be ready for them.

The FAA used to do ramp checks years ago but I don't hear of them any more. Perhaps they determined what we all knew from the outset...it is a waste of resources and doesn't accomplish much.

In my 30 years at this I have yet to be inspected...touch wood.

transilvana

21st Sep 2012, 22:57

Happened for real, landed in Munchen with a corporate jet registered in Europe.
The sticker on the emergency door handle was worn out.
I pointed out that above this same handle there were 2 fluorscent shields pointing out the very same door......

He fell big time over the worn out sticker.

And he got excited that we didn't have a cargo net in the bagage space compartment of our modest LJ60.
After pointing out that with 2 suitcases (or so) the "cargo" is stuck anyways in place and the bagage compartment is seperated from the cabin and help from his more realistic partner the sticker was the only big violation...

Well, if that was the worst thing they could find, I think we did great.

Just illustrating that some inspectors are searching for anything.

Take care CK

Those 2 guys in Munich are obsessed with the cargo net, happened to me last year as well as a colleague on his CJ1. Worst case is Nice, that woman inspector is really a pain.

donPablo

22nd Sep 2012, 13:55

I had my great time when saw those excited eyes of guys in Slovakia trying to solve the mistery of my black rubber dot on the RH leading edge of the wing of LJ60 !

So many questions about what did we hit and where is this paperwork...

Long time passed after i showed the correct page in POH saying what is it for and why it was there since the plane left the factory...

BTW the woman inspector in Nice ? The old-not-speaking-english-quite-well checking every notam one by one ? If yes, then... Huh, she travels all over the France.

mad_jock

22nd Sep 2012, 14:17

Met her in Lille and she is an utter bitch.

Huge arguments when she wanted to see the TCAS and EGPWS working.

Sorry love no can do on battery power that bus isn't powered.

No I am not paying for a GPU.

No I am not starting an engine just for you to watch two buttons being pushed.

We got written up because there was no checklist for testing the autopilot, I think well something to do with the autopilot, which was her final flurish of paperwork.

Pity there was no autopilot fitted.

She was also the one in France that got it into her head that a Brit license on year five didn't have a valid English tick in the box because there wasn't a date on it so she presumed it was an ICAO 4.

Flyingstig

22nd Sep 2012, 15:16

A real favourite on the bigger jets (BBJ / ACJ) is two way communication with someone on the ground when refuelling. It does not have to be a headset! As long as there is someone outside to "bang on the nose " to attract attention of one in the flight deck, or some pre-arranged comm method, that should suffice.

Also, I recommend accompanying them while they are inspecting. It's much easier to resolve a dumb query there and then, than to have a finding revoked!

Any 'uncontrolled docs' are a gift. So be wary of that old folder with manual excerpts, or loose pages of Perf!
Cheers
Stig

Lowmick

22nd Sep 2012, 16:24

I had a SAFA in Zurich. Lot of questions. Showing W&B in iPad, FPL, OFP, all a/c and my documents, complete walkaround. Also battery in flashlight did work, so we finished successfully after about 1 hour.

FrankR

22nd Sep 2012, 23:15

Do a Google search for "SAFA checklist", you'll find all you need. Download the document, and prepare a SAFA binder with copies of all documents, and a document control page, showing expiration dates for insurance etc.

My belief is that SAFA inspectors are professional, and have a specific plan when they show up to your aircraft. As long as you can produce the items on the checklist, they are easy to work with.

My two cents is that much of the banter you hear and read about difficult inspectors is not based in fact, but imagination.

FR

mad_jock

23rd Sep 2012, 06:07

Not in the case of the French lady.

But to be fair the F reg guys don't like her either so at least she is consistant.

His dudeness

23rd Sep 2012, 07:47

This doc has the EASA-SAFA Checklist in it:

http://www.austrocontrol.at/jart/prj3/austro_control/data/uploads/ACE/DC_LFA_SAFA_001.pdf

Pages 23 to 165...

List of national SAFA Contacts:

http://www.easa.europa.eu/approvals-and-standardisation/docs/safa/List.of.SAFA.NC.Contacts.for.Foreign.Operators.pdf

42 States are doing SAFAs...

The 42 Member States engaged in the EC SAFA Programme are: Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Georgia, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Turkey, United Kingdom, Ukraine.

And the general EASA site for this stuff:

EASA - Safety Assessment Of Foreign Aircraft (EC SAFA Programme) (http://www.easa.europa.eu/approvals-and-standardisation/safety-assessment-of-foreign-aircraft-SAFA.php)

flydive1

23rd Sep 2012, 09:23

In theory, accordind to ICAO doc 8335, checks should be carried out on commercial aircraft only.

1.1.1 The State regulations and procedure for the approval, surveilance and resolution of safety issues, associated with commercial air transport operations by an operator from another State(herein after referred to as "foreign operator") shold be in conformity with annexes to the Convenction. It is of particular importance to recognize that the primary role in the safety oversight of any operator is that of the State of the Operator which issued the air operator certificate(AOC)

Also the SAFA handbook is clear about check to be carried out on commercial aircraft, see heading on page 23.

International Commercial Air Transport.

In practice they do as they please and is probably easier to get checked than try to argue.

In UK they even check M registered aircraft, despite the fact that they are private and the UK and Isle of Man are under a single signatory of the convention, so not really "foreign"

mushroom69

23rd Sep 2012, 10:53

I had my fun with a Danish inspector who was convinced that pilots had to have their logbooks with them(!) When I said that he could go down the line of SAS aircraft and not find a single logbook and that SAS had an electronic logging system, he told me that "the CAA has not approved any electronic logbooks."

Then when checking my license, told me that a Danish TRE could not extend the validity of my rating, so that my rating was actually expired(!)

I phoned my national authority and asked them to ring the Danish CAA and explain what JAA was all about.

In the end I just answered in short replies, handed him things he asked for and wrote my own report immediately and sent it to the Danish CAA.

I suspect they sent him to some courses after that!

g5tom

26th Sep 2012, 14:31

transilvana

26th Sep 2012, 14:50

Forgot what we said, after studying the accident on D-CMMM anyone can fly in europe with no doc´s and be safe.

mushroom69

26th Sep 2012, 18:06

FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

AMC1 FCL.050 is more specific in how this should be done. The conclusion is: Yes, you may use an electronic log in an EASA compliant format, however, it only becomes an official document when printed and signed!

NOW PRINTED AND SIGNED, BUT CERTAINLY NOT CARRIED WITH ME.

FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents
(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence.
(b) The pilot shall also carry a personal identification document containing his/her photo.
(c) A pilot or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his/her flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of a competent authority.

WITHOUT UNDO DELAY DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO CARRY YOUR LOGBOOK. WHEN REQUESTED, A COPY CAN BE SENT TO THE REQUESTING AUTHORITY. CARRYING THE LOG WOULD NOT BE A GOOD IDEA. IN CASE OF AN ACCIDENT OR INCIDENT, THE LOG COULD BE DAMAGED/LOST AND THEN THE RECORD IS OF NO USE TO ANYONE...AS IT IS THEN LOST.

I can assure you that the inspectors interpretation of "without undue delay" means before he's leaving the aircraft!

WELL I GUESS I WILL HAVE AN INTERESTING TIME WHEN NEXT IN SWITZERLAND. AFTER 3 RAMP CHECKS, NONE OF THE INSPECTORS HAVE REQUESTED A LOGBOOK IN ANY FORM.

It is advisable to carry a print out with you (i.e to proof recency!).

HAPPILY I AM IN THE SAME AIRCRAFT, SO I CAN JUST SHOW THEM THE TECH LOG.....

@mushroom 69: I don't know about other countries, but on Swiss licences only hand entries of Swiss examiners and only for the purpose of revalidation are accepted!

I HAVE HEARD THAT IS THE SAME ISSUE FOR GERMANS. IT IS A RECURRING THEME WHEN WE LEAVE THE SIM AT FSI OR BOMBARDIER. THE EXAMINERS ARE ABLE TO SIGN MY CERTIFICATE (SWEDISH) THE DANISH ONES AND THE UK ONES, BUT NOT THE GERMAN ONES......THEY ALWAYS HAVE TO SEND THEIR PAPERWORK TO THE LBA AND THEN RECEIVE A NEW CERTIFICATE.

MINE IS ISSUED FOR 5 YEARS AND THE RATINGS ARE EXTENDED ON THE BACK. MAKES SENSE TO ME, BUT I SUPPOSE SOME CAA'S STILL WANT MORE CONTROL. JAA, EASA.......SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING THINGS STANDARDISED TO A GREATER DEGREE....NOT REALLY WORKING THAT WAY.

BY THE WAY, I DON' T USUALLY WRITE IN LARGE LETTERS, BUT TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM THE ORIGINAL....NOT SHOUTING.
Cheers,
g5tom

THANKS FOR THE EASA INPUT.....HAVE PRINTED IT ALL OUT, AND PUT IT IN A BINDER!

aerobat77

26th Sep 2012, 18:55

How often do these checks occur?

randomly... very little to no chance being an sts hosp , relative little chance having an outboand flight plan the next three hours, more chances to enjoy the check at last flight of the day , even better chances when its obvious from the airport od dep that you operate close to the edge when it comes to range capability.

of course this applies only to commercial operators and major airports. being private on a small regional field- nobody cares as long nothing happens.

cheers !

Empty Cruise

26th Sep 2012, 22:22

Have never had any trouble on a SAFA-inspection, and never had one that lasted more than 15 min.

I completely fail to understand why peeps are concerned about these checks - as long as you just stick by the regs and carry the paperwork required, ie do a completely normal planning and aircraft pre-departure inspection, there is nothing in a SAFA-check that can catch you unawares.

Examples stated above... Worn "exit"-sign (sorry, but a bit of a no-brainer in my book), checking each and every NOTAM (oh, so we don't do that before departure??), cargo-net required (shouldn't we know what is required equipment on our aircraft anyways??), No O2 used if above 410 (so it's ok to pick which regs we want to follow and which ones are just too much bovver?) - I'm sorry, probably just me, but the above leaves me puzzled...

His dudeness

27th Sep 2012, 08:15

I completely fail to understand why peeps are concerned about these checks - as long as you just stick by the regs and carry the paperwork required, ie do a completely normal planning and aircraft pre-departure inspection, there is nothing in a SAFA-check that can catch you unawares.

Last time they complained about a bare-metal transponder antenna on the belly of our aircraft: "this will corrode quickly and stop working" the inspector told me. I took a close-up photo of the antenna (including the "do not paint" label) and attached it to my comments of the report.

I think this post by "what next" explains a lot. Another guy was checked and they found a small crack in the package of one of the life vests. That was a finding in the french inspectors book. I saw a picture and I would have thought this vest is serviceable....

I had a SAFA check where they complained that I use "Flight Safety" checklists on my airplane. There is a FS logo on the checklist accompanied with a Cessna Checklist, cause Cessna uses FSIs help to create them. This was worth 30 minutes of discussion and in the end I needed to call Team Sovereign, put that 'gentleman' on the phone let Cessna explain them what was clearly written on the checklist (FAA approved). At our expense of course, calling the US from Austria on my german mobile isn´t exactly cheap. I had tried to convince him by using the FM, which contains the same checklist without the FSI logo, but that did not work.

I had checks in the UK (Stansted IIRC), Paris, Vienna, Stuttgart and a try in Turkey, where a young guy in Jeans and a sort of Hawaii shirt entered the airplane with our guests, not saying a word or showing ID... my colleague threw him off the airplane (I was loading baggs at the time), we departed to another airport in Turkey and had a 'fiesta' with another authority there cause we 'avoided' a SAFA check.

Some of the inspectors apparently do think they are policeman amd some just do their work in a proffesional manner. I have no probs with type 2, but type one I can`t stand.

Captain Kaboom

27th Sep 2012, 08:33

Empty cruise,Worn "exit"-sign (sorry, but a bit of a no-brainer in my book), as I mentioned, there were 2 additional markings indicating the emergency exit, how many more you need?

And, cargo-net required (shouldn't we know what is required equipment on our aircraft anyways??), yes I know and a cargo net isn't part of it.
Clearly you are not familair on this type of airplane (LJ60), the cargo compartment is seperated by a bulkhead from the cabin, 2 suitcases and it's full and no more space for a cargo net.
There are no rings in the airframe for a cargo net as the airplane simply isn't outfitted with rings.

It would be completely different if loose cargo is in a cabin and can move around.

In the bagage area nothing can move around, it is so small so therefore as per manufacturing standards and obviously accepted through JAR/FAR 25 standards no rings for cargo nets, period.

Hope you "unpuzzled" now.

CK

Empty Cruise

27th Sep 2012, 12:30

Have been fortunate never to have any of the "where is the paint on the do-not-paint antenna"-types. True, those would get me ticked off as well.

Checklists - true, even if the checklist is identical to the AFM, the logo will be an issue, needs to either be operator-approved (through your CAA) or manufacturers original. Pedantic, I concur, maybe even silly - but flip this on it's head from the perspective of you and the operator. Could the use of a "non-approved" checklist be something that could be used against you in a court of law? It would be unlikely to be make-or-break in a prosecution, but it is something that could be used to build an image of a less-than-diligent operation, even though completely undeserved. Bottom line - wouldn't use anything with any logo on but that of the operator or the OEM, for the reason stated above.

CK,

1) Worn "exit"-sign... How many do you think Bombardier think are needed? Or have they taken to installing markings and signs on the aircraft not required by the certifying authority?

2) Cargo net - well, what does your loading manual or limitations-section say? If you can show the inspector that the loading manual doesn't describe a cargo-net (as it probably wouldn't, given no rings are fitted), then that should silence them. If not - well, agreed, then they are incompetent fools that don't understand how things work. Would tick me off mightily, too ;)

Captain Kaboom

28th Sep 2012, 07:31

Good EC, we are on the same frequency again!

Again about the exit signs, what I have not made clear, this airplane was a good 14 years old.
Once upon a time it had been German registered,not at the this time though.
In those days one of the placards was installed in the German language, everything was bilangual, lesser quality stickers then the original Bombardiers sticker and this was the issue.
So not original JAR25 stuff.

My point was, if this is the worst they could find on a 14 year old airplane I was pretty pleased.
They started with all the paperworks, Jepps were checked, FMS databases, manuals, no findings, a great start.

And, my best, many moons ago in the US in a LJ24 I got a rampcheck after landing when the FAA inspector noted the tip tanks were empty so we ran out of fuel!
Got written up, the captain at this time went along and sent a beautifull sarcastic letter to the FAA with a copy of the manual stating the tip tanks had to be at least half empty during landing or they potentialy break off during landing.
Not to mention there were 2 wing tanks that feed the engines and a fuselage tank additional to the tip tanks.
This was funny (afterwards)

Totally agree, everything has to be legal, it is your licence and a perfect good start is WX, notams, put a check mark on them, W & B and databases, has to be in order.

Stay legal! alltough it is getting harder in those troubled days CK

Lowmick

28th Sep 2012, 12:18

In theory, accordind to ICAO doc 8335, checks should be carried out on commercial aircraft only.

I found on EASA website this:
"The principles of the SAFA Programme are simple: in each ECAC State, foreign aircraft (ECAC or non-ECAC) can be subject to a ramp inspection, chiefly concerned with the aircraft documents and manuals, flight crew licenses, the apparent condition of the aircraft and the presence and condition of mandatory cabin safety equipment. The references for these inspections are contained in the Standards of ICAO Annexes 1 (Personnel Licensing), 6 (Operations of Aircraft) and 8 (Airworthiness of Aircraft)."

And I think they normally check private operators as well.

mutt

28th Sep 2012, 13:07

And I think they normally check private operators as well. They most certainly do check private operators, however they dont appear to know about Annex 6 Chapter 2!

Mutt

ksjc

28th Sep 2012, 13:51

With regards to the recency of experience verification debate I would think a "ProCard" such as those issued by FlightSafety or CAE would suffice?

The ProCard has shows type and date of last training event. Anyone know if this is suitable proof?

By the way...just returned to US after stops in LSZH, EGLF, EDDF and EDDM and no SAFA check. Did have to provide aircraft Noise Certificate at EDDF though.

500 above

28th Sep 2012, 14:08

With regards to the recency of experience verification debate I would think a "ProCard" such as those issued by FlightSafety or CAE would suffice?

I can see the inspectors laughing that one off!

Dg800

28th Sep 2012, 14:53

Did have to provide aircraft Noise Certificate at EDDF though.

Germany is pretty keen on the whole noise issue. Even my D registered glider has to have a Noise Certificate (yes, it does have an auxiliary engine!).

altiplano

27th Oct 2014, 01:32

Sorry for the thread resurrection.

Can anyone point me to the European regulation that details flight crew responsibilities on one of these ramp checks?

After all night over the Atlantic an hour long quiz by a bureaucrat is not high on my list of priorities.

After dispensing with the niceties and producing my license I'm kinda' like "Look around, fill your boots, but I'm going to the hotel."

Appreciate any input on cutting the red tape and walking.

Denti

27th Oct 2014, 04:36

Knock yourself out: Safety Assessment Of Foreign Aircraft (EC SAFA Programme) | EASA (http://easa.europa.eu/safety-assessment-foreign-aircraft-ec-safa-programme)

capt.sparrow

27th Oct 2014, 20:27

Safa motto should read:
"we're not happy til you're not happy"

imriozer

28th Oct 2014, 12:08

Merphy is always among us...
I landed at LFPB today and I had a ramp check.
The check was good but it took 2 and a half hours!!!
If we were limited by duty time this was really bad.
Is it normal??

Imri

His dudeness

28th Oct 2014, 19:50

2.5hrs ? Did they enter your airplane and immediately went on strike ?

mutt

28th Oct 2014, 22:55

If we were limited by duty time this was really bad. Nope, they aren't allow to delay a flight departure unless they have findings, so if you hit a duty time limit, you just tell them nicely to get off :)

I know of an A320 finding regarding taking off over the structural weight, all because the crew had loaded 500 kgs for taxi in CDG, and couldn't prove that they would actually burn 500 kgs!

jetopa

29th Oct 2014, 02:21

THE EXAMINERS ARE ABLE TO SIGN MY CERTIFICATE (SWEDISH) THE DANISH ONES AND THE UK ONES, BUT NOT THE GERMAN ONES......THEY ALWAYS HAVE TO SEND THEIR PAPERWORK TO THE LBA AND THEN RECEIVE A NEW CERTIFICATE.

Not true! :=

mad_jock

29th Oct 2014, 07:31

Well just had 2 SAFA checks in as many days.

I am glad I am not a camo with some of the stupidity that gets brought up.

His dudeness

29th Oct 2014, 12:43

Not true!

Not true any more.

Was true until this spring.

Salto

22nd May 2015, 13:39

IN CDG?

DGAC-guys seem to misuse the SAFA system. And that is a shame! :ugh:

JB007

23rd May 2015, 09:02

Not Corporate but a 'strange' coloured B757/767 that gets the odd SAFA check!

Latest is them asking to see the approval for EFB!

Salto

23rd May 2015, 11:35

We are pleased by ramp checks whenever we fly to France. Obviously, they love us. I am aware of repetitive findings regarding wordings within the (national authoritiy approved) manuals, which seem to be not appreciated by certain DGAC inspectors.

In the future do we have to file revisions to the national authority and to the DGAC regarding wordings, and in addition to the Greeks regarding stickers in the bay, and to the…?

They blow-up the whole SAFA system and make it useless for safety. But of course creating new jobs for inspectors. Discraceful.