Gliding - a question to the military guys

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

Many of you, before joining the Service, will perhaps have been ATC/CCF cadets and will have done some gliding with them.

Alternatively, perhaps you were a member of a gliding club before you enlisted, or perhaps you glide now while in the UK and during your off-duty hours.

I should like to ask whether your gliding experience has contributed in any way to your subsequent professional flying skills? If so, what contribution has it made?

Regards,

BP.

[jayteeto]

I had no powered flying experience before flying training, I had solo experience on gliders. It helped a little bit, but not that much......

[Tiger_mate]

It helped a little bit, but not that much......

Your not kidding :E
:ok:

[diginagain]

Having completed a gliding scholarship many years before going solo in an Army Chipmunk, I was prepared for the opportunity to sing loudly and tunelessly without being berated.

[Two's in]

Having soloed on Gliders, it certainly helped in the respect of not being too overawed at finding myself alone in the cockpit later on, and it all contributes towards developing a good sense of 'Airmanship'.

[SASless]

It certainly cannot hurt....and it is great fun to boot! Loved my time at the London Gliding Club at Dunstable.

Lovely people....nice site....very interesting place to fly from.

Do avoid the Cricket Pitch not too far away from the place....they don't like gliders there.

[Bob Viking]

With regards to the Cricket pitch, was it the noise they objected to?
BV;)

[MightyGem]

I had about 100hrs on gliders when I started my Army Pilots Course. The first sixty hours on Chippys were a doddle. :cool: The next 60 hours on Gazelles weren't. :eek:

[Dan Winterland]

About 300 hours on gliders - and an instructor rating. It helped for the first 60 hours (solo in about 6) but not much after that. But my PFLs were always good!

Later as an instructor at the elementary stage, I enjoyed teaching glider pilots more than PPL holders. Their airmanship (particulary lookout) was superior and they were better attitude flyers. And they learned PFLs quickly!

[India Four Two]

Dan,

On the other hand, I always enjoyed demonstrating rolling into a turn with no rudder to PPLs and watching them realize what adverse yaw really was!

[jayteeto]

Tiger Mate, I may have struggled a little.............. As I get older and memories fade, I like to think that my total lack of skill was actually caused by the RAF asking me to fly with deficient equipment and bad instructors. I was actually a God, it just wasn't my fault....... :ok:

[althenick]

Good thread and a good place to ask a question of my own. Not a flyer but curious - can you fly a power assisted glider on a BGA Licence?

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

As opposed to bad equipment and deficient instructors?....;)

[Dg800]

Good thread and a good place to ask a question of my own. Not a flyer but curious - can you fly a power assisted glider on a BGA Licence?The short answer is:

Self sustaining: YES
Self launching: NO

Ciao,

Dg800

EDIT - Straight from the horse's mouth: Welcome to the British Gliding Association (http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/licensing/introduction.htm)

[Yellow Sun]

I should like to ask whether your gliding experience has contributed in any way to your subsequent professional flying skills? If so, what contribution has it made?

I know that the gliding fraternity is always anxious to promote the positive contribution of their activity towards other aspects of flying and I am sure that they are sincere in their beliefs. However I feel that gliding has about the same relevance to professional military flying as archery has to weapons skills.

YS

[jayteeto]

Stick back/houses smaller
Stick forward/houses bigger
Hold stick back/houses circle around windscreen
Sort of works like military training??

[1.3VStall]

Yellow Sun,

Then you clearly have no experience of gliding in the mountains!

[SOSL]

August bank holiday weekend, towards the middle of the last century. I was solo in a Sedbergh, at age of 16 (me not the glider - the glider was much older) approaching Catterick. Due to a sudden attack of incompetence landed short on the other side of the A1 - rescue party soon arrived and "helped me" to de-rig.

Unfortunately the wind was blowing across the A1 at the time; had to carry the wing into wind. We waited for 45 minutes for a gap in the traffic big enough to get a Sedbergh wing across both carriageways.

Then I decided to amend my RAF application form to read "Engineer".

Rgds SOS

[Yellow Sun]

Then you clearly have no experience of gliding in the mountains!

Then please explain its relevance? I would suggest that those who have undergone primary gliding instruction prior to military flying training have no experience of gliding in mountains either. In fact a very small minority of glider pilots will have any experience of flying in mountains so its not really relevant.

YS

[Wander00]

All "stick" time is beneficial

[1.3VStall]

Yellow Sun,

I once flew an ex-leader of the Reds in a two-seat glider out of a well-known mountain site. He was amazed by the experience and stated that, in terms of situational awareness, lookout and airmanship, an exposure to such flying would be of considerable benefit to all fast-jet pilots.

But then what do I know..........?

[ACW418]

Yellow Sun

I might be a bit biased but as a former RAF pilot and VGS CO I can tell you that a number of young men have come back to me and said how their gliding experience was of great value. However, all had been Staff Cadets/Civilian Gliding Instructors with Instructor Categories prior to joining the RAF. So it may be a matter of how experienced a glider pilot you were.

In my own case I think that my having done a Flying Scholarship on Austers and holding a PPL (after having soloed on gliders) made a difference. But as that was 50 years ago I am not sure I remember whether I recognised this at the time.

ACW

[Two's in]

However I feel that gliding has about the same relevance to professional military flying as archery has to weapons skills.


Yellow Sun,

Although less prevalent in Military flying, where the training emphasis is very much on "if something bad hasn't happened, it's about to", there is a plethora of recent accidents and incidents where pilots failed to "fly" their aircraft, often right into the ground/water. Many of those accidents have the same thing in common; an obsession with the software or aircraft system being foolproof, when the opposite was true. If you understand the fundamental principles of flight - thrust vs drag, lift vs gravity, and how basics such as AoA and wing loading affect those factors, you are likely to enjoy a happy and safe career in aviation. When you don't understand those things and something goes wrong, your life just got a lot harder.

Just as Archery teaches you breathing control, focus and aiming principles that are relevant for any hand held weapon, there is probably no better environment for learning airmanship principles than inside a glider. It's much easier to experience and understand aeros, adverse yaw and accuracy in Engine-Off Landings when you are doing it every flight.

So I agree with you that gliding has about the same relevance to professional military flying as archery has to weapons skills.

[diginagain]

The next 60 hours on Gazelles weren't.
1st solo Basic Rotary and I looked around in a quiet moment, fascinated to see the MRH and associated gubbins whizzing around. I thought to myself "What idiot let me out on my own?"
1st solo Lynx (not even a BAT to talk to) was much more fun!

[Yellow Sun]

ACW418

In my own case I think that my having done a Flying Scholarship on Austers and holding a PPL (after having soloed on gliders) made a difference. But as that was 50 years ago I am not sure I remember whether I recognised this at the time.

Your experience mirrors mine, I soloed in a glider in 1963 and went on to complete a Flying Scholarship a couple of years later. I had been a staff cadet a Gliding School which earned me around 200 launches. Like you I suspect that my previous experience assisted during the early stages of flying training but I do not believe that it made any significant difference to the final result.

In later years my experience as a QFI reinforced this belief. At BFTS those with significant previous experience usually initially progressed a bit quicker , but by IHT the performance gap had narrowed considerably and by FHT there was no discernible difference. Ability was the prime factor, not previous training. 120 hours on a UAS and PFB was no insurance against suspension in basic training.

Over the years I have flown with pilots and crew members from many backgrounds, exhibiting the whole range of experience and aptitude (including the odd ex-member of the Red Arrows 1.3VStall). I cannot say that the glider pilots stood out in any way from the rest. It didn't seem to matter whether they spent their spare time mountain biking, sailing, gliding, playing golf or restoring old cars. They displayed the normal range of ability found in professional aviation. However the glider pilots did make slightly better company on a night sector than the golfers;)

1.3VStall

But then what do I know..........?

Yes, what do you know? I would attend your opinion more weight if you supported it with evidence from your own experience and chose not to rely on that of others.

YS

[ACW599]

Some years ago a BBMF Spitfire XIX landed at my then VGS on a weather diversion. Whilst making coffee for the pilot I asked him about the handling qualities of the aircraft compared with earlier Marks. His words, almost verbatim, were "well, your senior chaps could probably handle any of these aircraft very well because your basic stick-and-rudder skills are excellent and you know about finesse. Actually they'd probably be better than most current FJ pilots".

I felt nine feet tall that day.

[ACW418]

Yellow Sun

I think we are in some kind of agreement and as a QFI I bow to your greater experience. I would, however, prefer to be addressed correctly i.e. ACW418.

ACW

[si.]

I think my time at a VGS helped my powered flying training. Possibly as I was teaching a guy to fly a Viking at the weekend, and the same guy was teaching me in a Bulldog two days later. Which if nothing else, improved the instructor / student relationship...:ok:

[1.3VStall]

Yellow Sun,

As you're an ex-RAF QFI, I will bow to your undoubted expertise. Quite clearly my thousands of hours flying (both gliding and powered) makes me ill equipped to add anything of value to this thread.

[MightyGem]

1st solo Lynx

You went SOLO in a Lynx??? :=

[Bill Macgillivray]

Why does it always have to degenerate into personal abuse (or very nearly so)? I would think that ANY experience airborne would help in some way to your future progression in the aviation world. (I am sure it did in my case). I know that a Sedburgh/Tutor or, indeed, a Tiger Moth, is in no way equivalent to (take your pick) a Piston Provost, Vampire, Meteor, Jet Provost, Gnat or Hawk. Having flown all I still reckon that I was well served by every minute that I had in the air - in whatever "kite".:ok::ok::ok:

[BEagle]

No RAF section in my school CCF, but I went solo with the RAFGSA in a T-21 at 16. Because I wasn't in the ATC or CCF(RAF), the RAF wouldn't allow me any air experience flying at the nearest AEF.....but through RN contacts I had a trip in the coal hole of a 'Vixen.

Still, the Army section of the CCF taught me some of the stuff needed during Officer Training; I also learned about ancient army wireless sets and short wave communications - knowing how to set up the Telephone F Mk 2 even helped 10 years later during a field exercise during leadership training at RAFC.

ATC or CCF membership will certainly help build respect for the discipline required for a military career - add gliding to that and you have the recipe to a sound basis for learning to become a military pilot. Many of us followed the gliding / flying scholarship / UAS route, so started JP training with a reasonable grounding in the basics. But the advantage soon gives way to the greater need for ability and spare capacity.

[SOSL]

I did a Flying Scholarship, in 1967, mostly on Cessna 150's but we did the aerobatics in an Auster (Aiglet J5F IIRC). What fun!

My previous gliding experience really helped, at first, because I just understood stick and rudder and having spun a Sedbergh I wasn't scared of spinning the Auster (maybe I should have been).

It was at Carlisle Flying Club where we were accommodated in wooden huts. The real reason I didn't take up a flying career was that it turned out I was colour blind. I had to get an RT licence before they would let me fly solo. My instructor was a milkman with an Italian sounding name (Capt Cosimini IIRC). On GH sorties we always flew round his customer base. So for me, most sorties were milk runs!

The cross country, in a Cessna 156 (4 seater) was Carlisle, Blackpool, Middleton St George, Carlisle. Joined at Blackpool - total radio failure, nothing heard, nothing transmitted. But it was OK because I had an RT licence!

Radio fixed - carried on. Finally got back to Carlisle. Noticed that the runway and surrounds had become distinctly untidy and overgrown while I'd been away. Also noticed that the taxi instructions from the tower didn't make sense. Finally noticed that I had landed on the disused strip near the flying club. Managed to taxi back over some bumpy grass. Probably just as well that I couldn't pursue a career in the air.

Still don't think I'm colour blind - I think it's everyone else.

Anyone else do a Flying Schol at Carlisle?

Rgds SOS

[Ali Qadoo]

I should like to ask whether your gliding experience has contributed in any way to your subsequent professional flying skills?


Anything that teaches stick and rudder skills and improves your airmanship has to be a good thing. However, it's pretty much impossible to quantify how much what you pick up on gliders will contribute to your future skills on more advanced types.

What I do know is that coming back the other way can prove a humbling experience. I left the F-4 with just under 1,000 on type and while on leave waiting for my next course managed to get the chance of a ride in a Tiger Moth at Redhill. Piece of cake thinks I, how hard can this possibly be....? Talk about a rude shock! Very soon I found myself struggling with an aircraft that needed constant re-trimming in pitch every time you changed the IAS by a fraction of a knot, no rudder trim and a slip needle that seemed to have only 2 positions: full left or full right. Then when it came to trying to land the bloody thing, 2 knots fast and it would float the length of the airfield and at the merest hint of crosswind would start going as fast sideways as it was forwards - and all this with an undercarriage made of pared-down matchsticks (or so it seemed to me). I don't think I've ever worked so hard in my life, and definitely learned at first hand why "simple" types like the Tiger Moth and the Chipmunk were so good for ab-initio flying grading.

So, my answer to the OP's question would be that even if being a good glider pilot won't mean you'll sail through military flying training, being a fast-jet mate won't necessarily make you an ace in a glider and certainly not in a Tiger Moth!

[SOSL]

Good point.

[Wizzard]

You went SOLO in a Lynx???

Not too unusual in the early days in Army service, there was no restriction as such. My log book shows a few solo trips in '80/'81. The cockpit seems very big though:uhoh:

The Navy do it all the time:E

Apologies for thread drift...

[SOSL]

AQ's post has just rekindled an old memory. When I was OC Handling and Rectification Flt at Church Fenton, in 1980, one of the studes took me up in his Gypsy Moth for a short flight over York and Tadcaster. What fun!

The speaking tube was quite effective....If you were that stude and you're on PPrune please speak to me.

Rgds SOS

[diginagain]

You went SOLO in a Lynx??? Certainly did. 1989 BAOR TOW concentration EDUH. 0.2 Solo, auth'ed by Colonel Mike to ferry a spare airframe up to the FARP on Himmelsthur. FARP was choked so I went round twice, hence the 0.2.:ok:

[SASless]

Viking.....yes in a way....it was the noise!

One of the fellows with all the pads and that massive wooden club got all mesmerized by the sight of the glider approaching....got Clean Bowled....and as the Glider whizzed by over his head.....from out of the vent window came a very loud and British "Howszat!" or word(s) to that effect. He was not amused!

It is in the Journal kept by the Club....circa 1977-78'ish as I recall.

[MightyGem]

Certainly did. 1989 BAOR TOW concentration EDUH. 0.2 Solo, auth'ed by Colonel Mike to ferry a spare airframe up to the FARP on Himmelsthur. FARP was choked so I went round twice, hence the 0.2.
:ok: indeed! Thought you were referring to your conversion course.

1989 BAOR TOW concentration EDUH.
That was when I got interviewed in the cockpit of a Lynx by BFBS. :O

[diginagain]

Thought you were referring to your conversion course.Almost got a ride with JC during the course as he practiced his solo display routine, but the grown-ups thought it unwise to allow an impressionable young bloke to see the Master at work. :}

[Rocket2]

Reading through these posts, valid as they are they all seem to concentrate on the flying skill side that gliding may, or may not, teach you. In my book the biggest beneifit of all comes for free - it teaches teamwork & responsibility for your actions, you need a good, responsible team around you before you can get airborne & you have to be part of it.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

How could anyone actually know whether or not gliding helped them? They can't do the course twice, once with gliding experience and once without. :confused:

I didn't notice any difference at all in the students I taught who'd been glider pilots, tbh. There seemed to be several other qualities and facts about them that would adjust their likelihood of success far before a few hundred hours of gliding.

I've found that some students with small amounts of PPL-style experience are worse off than students starting from scratch, though. Unless you've done enough GA flying to make it second nature, and ensure that you've developed some real airmanship, a small number of PPL hours will result in some "unlearning" required to avoid negative transfer.

[Green Guard]

I noticed a big difference in attitude even in airline flying between those who started with powered mashines vs those who started with gliders....kind of....initial glider pilots feel more at home in the air

[More lookout]

Having been a staff cadet at 637VGS in the 80's, I can say that it definitely helped me achieve my goal of gaining my wings in the RAF. It wasn't just the flying, but the development of myself as an individual and team member. I will always be grateful to the then CO (G.G) and his instructors. I had a fantastic time and always look back with a smile and gratitude. It was nice a few years later to say thankyou by flying the CO in one of HMG's helicopters.:ok:

[Wander00]

Wasn't the pilot of the A330 that landed in the Hudson River a glider pilot in his spare time, and that helped him to a successful outcome.

[teeteringhead]

Wasn't the pilot of the A330 that landed in the Hudson River a glider pilot in his spare time, ... and also IIRC an ex-mil F-4 driver. Brilliant flying/airmanship/capacity/coolth whatever his background. :ok:

[1.3VStall]

And the Air Canada pilot that landed the fuel-free B767 at Gimli many years ago was a glider pilot and the Air Transat A330 pilot that landed at Lajes with a double flameout was also a glider pilot,

BTW it was an A320 that went into the Hudson.

[Heathrow Harry]

Gliding teaches you a great deal about the basics about angle of attack, stalling, and the dangers of trying to stretchhhhhhh a glide to make the tarmac

You also learn to keep a good lookout for traffic and to watch for electricty lines and fences etc at low level

plus its a lot of fun and QUIET

[MightyGem]

I didn't notice any difference at all in the students I taught who'd been glider pilots,
I think my instructor noticed the difference when I did a forceful "I have control!" on my first lessons in a Chippy when another one appeared out of the gloom heading straight for us.

[rlsbutler]

Yellow Sun and 5 Forward 6 Back argue from the experience of instructing a full military training course. I do not think they have countered the basic proposition. The intensity of such training (in time-honoured RAF practice) means that, as the students get to the FHT, all have to get exactly right the drills and manoeuvres required for the particular aircraft. At that stage the students’ background is history; the question is: have they acquired the necessary precision to pass the examination on our aircraft ?

YS was also a bit sharp about 1.3vStall not quoting his own experience. He should be careful what he wishes for …

I was at Cranwell 1958-61 - Piston Provosts and Meteors in the second and third years. A good chum of mine was chopped in the first few hours at the beginning of the second year. He was a London lad who had not even learned to ride a bike. He must have demonstrated the aptitude at Hornchurch (as it was then) but the system in effect failed him for his not developing the motor skills that pilotage calls for. It was obvious to the rest of us, with our air experience, our gliding, our flying scholarships etc that we had arrived on the course with initial momentum that he clearly lacked.

By the end of my training, the management was fairly clear that there was no Air Marshal’s baton in my knapsack and vaguely wondered if they could throw me out. For them the snag was that I had been gliding on the North Airfield at HM’s expense for over two years and had become, in my turn, Captain of Gliding. The officer in charge was able to tell them that on North Airfield I was doing all that good leadership and management that they could not detect in the College setting (Sqn Ldr Dougie Bridson AFC – if you are still around – I salute you).

Much more important to me was the flying and the captaincy. While my solo hours on the Meteor was only just enough to progress my learning, I really needed more and I got it in the trusty Olympia. Landing away, doing my own “Silver C” cross country, crewing for all the other young pilots when they landed away – that all added up to extra experience as a young aircraft captain.

One lovely evening, the woods at the edge of the North Airfield exhaled a great bubble of warm air into the hazy fading blue sky. I was in the right place, with a glider and barograph ready for launch. Well over an hour later, having continuously manoeuvred inside this burgeoning Cu Nim (using just a Turn & Slip, a DI, an ASI and a Variometer) I finally straightened up and flew West into the evening sun with a “Gold C” climb of 3000 metres on the barograph and a huge wodge of ice on the wings each side of the cockpit. Not long after that I flew my final Instrument Rating Test on the Meteor. That test might normally be more critical for a student than the Final Handling Test. It never occurred to me, that summer, that I could fail it.

As a postscript, I might mention arriving as a shiny young Pilot Officer at the Canberra bomber squadron (45 Sqn) in Singapore. The training officer (Flt Lt Johnny Walker) felt that my initial night check had really gone too well for my own good. So he declared an emergency, almost unthinkable in Canberra operations, of a double engine failure downwind on the Tengah runway. Then it was less my comprehensive military training than my hundred or so hours in gliders that kept me from making a fool of myself.

Military flying training has the job of making students safe and competent in complicated airborne machines. Too little experience is provided for when the machines revert to simple. Gliding provides the knowledge for that situation.

Ignoring any question of the necessary courage, I honestly believe my deeply embedded gliding experience would have saved me from making a fool of myself in any of the Hudson, the Gimli or the AF447 situations.

[4Greens]

Going gliding in the Navy got me deciding to fly as a specialisation. Never looked back.

[oldmansquipper]

The greatest aviation feat of WWII was achieved - (IMHO) - in gliders:

The `Pegasus bridge spot landing competition` was carried out brilliantly on the night of the 5th of June 1944.

.....and the pilots were all from the Army. ;)

[Courtney Mil]

All my gliding experience was PFLs and practice turn-backs in the Hawk. Great fun, but it didn't last long. Maybe the thermals were just rubbish at Valley, Brawdy and Chiv.

[VX275]

The `Pegasus bridge spot landing competition` was carried out brilliantly on the night of the 5th of June 1944.

.....and the pilots were all from the Army. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

And every last one of them was an SNCO:D

[ACW418]

On my initial famil flight in a JP3 from Syerston my instructor (I*n Ham**ton) suddenly throttled right back to flight idle and went bananas about being in wave. I wondered what he was on about but I did notice the RCDI (VSI?) was showing a rate of climb. He was the CFI of the RAFGSA at Swinderby at the weekends.

ACW

[Above The Clouds]

I recall a JP3 doing a similar exercise in wave from Leeming in 1982, it landed 30 mins later than its published endurance :uhoh:

[1.3VStall]

ATC - Correct!

The pilot was A**y M****r, who is still an active glider pilot. IIRC, I believe overdue action was taken and he got a bo**ocking.

However, as any glider pilot knows, once you get into wave, it is so seductive that it is difficult to give it up!

[Above The Clouds]

1.3VStall
Yep but the office meeting was with tea and biscuits :)

[oldmansquipper]

I recall Ja*k H**ris*n :cool:used to teach potential `multi` instructors at Little Riss in the Varsity. The trick, on a wave day, was to sit in the lee of the Welsh mountains, throttle both back to idle & get bloggs to patter the onset of the stall, increasing sink etc etc..

Priceless!:)

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

First I must apologise for the delay in replying to all your posts. I have been away for a few days and am only now catching up on my various forms of mail.

I should like to thank all who replied. The serious replies were instructive and the humourous ones gave me a laugh.

As you will have guessed, I am a private pilot with some previous gliding experience. The reason for my question was this; most private pilots, (including me,) who were previously glider pilots are definite that their previous gliding experience had in some way contributed to their skill either flying power or at least when first learning to fly power.

However, the private pilot obviously flies a slow light aeroplane with a low wing loading. It occured to me to wonder whether any of the benefit of gliding continued further on into the world of flying (or learning to fly) much heavier metal at much higher airspeeds.

Once again, my thanks to one and all.

Go safely, Guys, wherever you are.

BP.

[Courtney Mil]

BP,

You make a good point about the early days of powered flying, but I think the effect of previous flying experience of any sort is superceded by student's more recent, intensive flying training.

To address a point made earlier, I agree that light powered flight pre-pilot training could work both ways. I don't think my PPL course did me much good at all when I got to Linton-on-Ouse.

Courtney

[LS-4]

As you will have guessed, I am a private pilot with some previous gliding experience. The reason for my question was this; most private pilots, (including me,) who were previously glider pilots are definite that their previous gliding experience had in some way contributed to their skill either flying power or at least when first learning to fly power.

I had 60 hours in gliders when I began my ATP training. I'm pretty sure that the experience has helped me a bit, especially in connection with VFR flying in SEP planes. I like to think that gliding has generally been good for me in terms of stick, rudder and landing skills as well as my outside scanning habits. Flying in tow effectively taught me to be easier on the stick and avoid overcorrecting.

Gliding over mountainous areas in nice weather with waves has given me some of my finest moments in the air this far. Makes me wish I had begun gliding before I joined.

[ShyTorque]

Gliding obviously instils good basic stick and rudder skills from the start, but military flying involves much more than that. The military pilot requires those skills as basic tools in order to begin to train to do a military job, not just to fly an aircraft.

A broader aviation background results in a better understanding of problems and limitations faced by other aviators. This is similar to those car drivers who have previously ridden a motorcycle; they understand more about road surfaces, drain covers, white lining, checking mirrors, defensive driving, etc and will give motorcyclists due consideration.

[PhDKrisPPL]

Just received my VGS medical - without restriction! Had my medical at St Athan in Sept 2012, finally granted in Feb 2013.

Anyway, now that my application to become a CGI is almost complete, I was wondering if there any foreign equivalents to our Volunteer Gliding Squadrons? Do any other countries operate such gliding squadrons for their youth?

[Dan Winterland]

Germany did once!

[622]

Canada do!

[Davey Emcee]

I went solo on my lynx conversion, as did all the course I think.

[thing]

I fly gliders and powered and would def say that gliding helped me when I went over to the dark side. However previous posters have a very valid point in that military flying isn't just about pole skills; it's about being able to operate the machine as a weapon.

I would say that initially someone with a couple of hundred hours in a glider and with XC experience would fare better than someone who had only been pax on an airliner before; but once the basic pole skills had been learned and you went off to FJ that the difference would probably have been eliminated.

The other thing that helped me when I went powered was my years as an avionics guy in the mob. I knew what all nav and radio nav kit did and how it worked before I sat in the cockpit.

Just had a look at my logbook and I went solo powered on my fifth flight and finished the whole shooting match well under the min time as I also did with my night and IMC rating. That's not due to any super piloting abilities on my part, more due I'm convinced to my past experience as a glider jock and instrument guy. (And also the excellent instructors I had.)

[MightyGem]

I went solo on my lynx conversion, as did all the course I think.
Are you sure? Just checked my logbook, and my "first solo" on my course was with an experienced crewman. That was in 1986.

We certainly didn't send students off with an empty left seat when I was QHIing on Lynx Flight. If for no other reason than for their ability to be able to cope with any FRC action in the event of any emergency.

[diginagain]

Having a BAT sitting next you while doing a PPI isn't 'solo' either. :E

[Davey Emcee]

Are you sure? Just checked my logbook, and my "first solo" on my course was with an experienced crewman. That was in 1986.


Why wouldn't I be sure? I did 0.6 solo on June 27th 1980. Not sure what your log book entries have to do with what I did on my course.

[Wizzard]

Did my Lynx course in Jan '80 and yes on checking my logbook and I too had an hour's GFP solo as well as what looks like a couple of circuits doing u/s loads. My first Lynx "solo" however was with one of our squadron crewmen.

Must have been a change in policy later - perhaps the penny pinching had already started. I remember when the first "moratorium" kicked off in BOAR and COS 4Bde called the Boss and suggested that we fly the Lynx around on one engine to save fuel! F*ck off he explained!

God, that seems a lifetime ago but the memory's still very strong - happy days


Wiz

Soz for the thread drift...


(Did I really just say "soz" - time for a nap methinks)

[MightyGem]

Not sure what your log book entries have to do with what I did on my course.
Just to make sure that memory hadn't failed me and that I did have talking baggage in the left hand seat on my first "solo". It was entered as "solo" as it was the first without an instructor.

Things had obviously changed since 1980.

[air pig]

Apologies for entering such an environment, but as a humble flight nurse and tea maker for the sky gods upfront working on Lear's and Cheyenne's, can someone enlighten me as to what a 'wave' is in relation to gliders. Only ever flown in one once, felt more secure with an engine in front in the 'chippie' as a young space cadet.

Regards

AP.

[diginagain]

From; North Wales Gliding Club website (http://www.nwgc.org.uk/page52.html)



To keep flying, gliders need lift from the surrounding air. One form of lift is wave lift. This is caused when the wind blows across a feature in the landscape such as a hill or mountain and, if the wind is of sufficient strength, then the airflow begins to oscillate up and down like a large wave. This sort of lift is glider heaven. Wave systems can provide lift up to 20,000 feet and is very smooth to fly in.

Hope this helps.

[Gnd]

Not really and as I sit here 37000' above Norway thanks to a natty little airline offering free wi-fi, I still believe a Meagre one engine is better than none (although 4 is better at this height!)

[CISTRS]

Broomstick,
I'm not qualified to answer your question, as I have never been a military pilot. So this is off topic - sorry....
However, I have more stick hours in gliders than in powered.
For what it's worth, I remember reaching a stage where I decided that gliding was much more rewarding than powered flight as a fly for fun pilot, and the flight hours just started to rack up.
Things that may be relevant to any pilot:


First single seater flight. (Prefect) New single seater types were not a problem after this.
First solo aerotow. After working too hard and overcorrecting, the penny finally dropped, and I just formated on the tug and let the rope do the work.
First crowded thermal. A dozen or more gliders in one thermal, some outclimbing others, certainly teaches the necessity of a good lookout and situational awareness linked with attitude flying.
First field landing. (Failed Siver C attempt). Don't cramp the circuit. Allow a generous final to adjust airbrakes
Being caught out in sink with the airfield on the horizon. Get the nose down and increase speed! The only way to have a chance of getting back.
Awareness of the terrain - landable within gliding range? Taught me never to fly a single engined AC over unlandable terrain, and never to stake my life on a single engine. Also never wanted to fly single engine at night.


When the stage of unconscious competence in basic flying skills is reached, you can then go on to learn new (military?) stuff more easily. I suspect gliding experience just accelerates the acquisition of the unconscious competence stage.

[bspatz]

To keep flying, gliders need lift from the surrounding air. One form of lift is wave lift. This is caused when the wind blows across a feature in the landscape such as a hill or mountain and, if the wind is of sufficient strength, then the airflow begins to oscillate up and down like a large wave. This sort of lift is glider heaven. Wave systems can provide lift up to 20,000 feet and is very smooth to fly in.

I think this is a bit pessimistic given that the absolute height world record in wave is 50,721ft! The bit about glider heaven is however correct.

[1.3VStall]

Bspatz, I'm with you. Nothing beats the thrill of doing a climb in the rough-as-old-boots rotor and then encountering the smooth, silky wave lift and just a quiet hiss in your ears from the laminar flow as you watch the altimeter winding up.

Best fun you can have with your clothes on IMHO!

[MightyGem]

can someone enlighten me as to what a 'wave' is in relation to gliders.
Imagine a rock in a stream just below the surface, with the water flowing over it. Downstream of the rock are waves in the water which don't flow downstream, but remain "stationary" in relation to the rock. In certain conditions, air will do the same when flowing over hills/mountain ranges.

Glider height record attempts used to be done in CuNims :eek: before wave was discovered. The current record is 50,699' by Steve Fosset.
Steve Fossett Does it Again - Glider World Altitude Record - Technology Evangelist (http://technologyevangelist.com/2006/09/steve_fossett_does_i.html)

Here's a wave flight over Hawaii. Sadly the pilot was killed on another flight the following year.

Hawaii Glider Record Altitude Mountain Wave Flight - YouTube

Lots of pictures of wave clouds here:
wave clouds - Google Search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wave+clouds&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5jwxUf7lMYWg0QW95oHwBA&sqi=2&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1239&bih=576)

[Dysonsphere]

Well I did remember basic cable break when many years later gaining a PPL the instructor did not appreachite the hard stick forward with practice engine failure guess the first training can catch you out later. All was forgiven in bar later when instructor said he had completly forgotten my early training on gliders.

[nowt ont clock]

I'm fairly sure the current UK glider absolute height record still stands at a tad over 38000'. This was set in the mid 90's by a guy called Chris Rollings flying out of Aboyne in Scotland IIRC . He also managed the first 1000Km flight earlier the same year. Pretty good year for him I'd say