Humiliation in Canada

[mikha169]

Hey guys, i recently started watching a show called "Ice Pilots", it's basically a camera crew following a family run airline and their operations. What i found surprising was that a pilot with 250 hrs, 500 hrs, even 750hrs has to work for a couple of months even years as a "rampie" loading/unloading cargo, refueling, removing ice, all sorts of ground handling stuff that could be done by anyone before they even get a chance to get in the right seat. Now, i know its good to assess a person, how hard they work, motivation level etc... but this is just pure humiliation in my opinion. Working a year earning peanuts, doing back breaking work just to get a chance to fly a light twin or an ancient piston airplane....must be really hard for a new motivated pilot with a new commercial license in hand to find out he has to work for months, even years doing that :mad:

[KAG]

Hard work is not humiliating, man up a bit!

Nothing wrong with having some biceps before touching the yoke of a bush airplane.

You have no idea what went though real pilots, pionner of aviation 1 century ago. And they didn't feel humiliated!

The canadian system to train pilot is probabely the best in the world, better find something else to bash.

[Spunky Monkey]

Yeah...Dam right...

So the best pilots are the ones that pay for everything and end up in the right hand seat of a 737 with 256hours TT.
Eroding the T&Cs of the rest of us.

Are you a Troll or just a naive pnumpty with no life experience...keep watching the discovery channel for all of your facts...

[Robert G Mugabe]

must be really hard for a new motivated pilot with a new commercial license in hand to find out he has to work for months, even years doing that



Well little Lord Fauntleroy. Beggar the thought of actually having to work towards one's aims. Tell you what why dont you pay to fly a nice shiny jet.

Beware however ;old sport; most pilots in the left hand seats of said shiny jets went through the aviation school of hard knocks and developed what is called character.

"But Daddy I want it now" Veruca Salt:yuk::yuk:

[Mendel]

The entitled generation...God help us....

[rogerg]

I spent many hours washing and polishing the boss's Kingair,sweeping the hanger floor etc etc to get the chance of of some right hand seat time. I dont remember feeling humiliated.

[7AC]

My oh my, somebody had to work for a living, not have it handed to him on a plate.
Those of us who came by the self improver route just regard it as the potholes on
the road to our goal.

[ilesmark]

'work for a couple of months even years as a "rampie" loading/unloading cargo, refueling, removing ice, all sorts of ground handling stuff'?

LUXURY! I used to DREAM of working as a rampie doing ground handling stuff. Would have been like a holiday camp to us :D

[Locked door]

OP, in a hostile environment with old equipment do you think a year on the ramp learning a gut feel for load and balance, de icing, de frosting aircraft and countless other nuggets of information that may one day save them and their colleagues, combined with time in the manuals, is time wasted?

They will finish that year with knowledge, respect for the aircraft and enviromnent, and a solid foundation to become excellent (bush) pilots.

If only the majority of the new generation of commercial pilots had such a start to their careers. The sky would be a safer place.

[JW411]

The OP gives his location as HECA. I seem to remember that is Cairo. He is also an A320 first officer. Probably not Buffalo material.

[Locked door]

A touch harsh i think, JW411. We are all shaped by our experiences, the key is to control those experiences for the better.

[bvcu]

And put into context the poor rh seat LO cost guys in europe , its an apprenticeship , because i am seeing a lot of those guys now in the RH seat of big shiny new widebodies with ME carriers , so for a lot of them its paid off in the end .

[mikha169]

Most of you guys are coming at me guns blazing, full of assumptions and no one is asking me to clarify anything....so i think i need to make myself clearer. I do in fact approve of the fact of doing all the hard work of loading/unloading cargo, refueling, deicing...etc but doing all that hard work for a year+ WITHOUT logging any time what so ever that's what i don't get. Fly for an hour and do all the ground handling for 5 hours, no problem...but busting your ass with nothing?!!! And for your info yes, i am based in HECA, yes i am an F/O on an A320 but nothing came for free..had to take loans, work multiple jobs, flight instruct to build hours...nothing in life comes for free, you have to work at it and i worked hard to get where i am today. Hope that clarifies my point of view. its the flying to work ratio that's unfair to say the least!

[framer]

"unfair to say the least"

That phrase sums up how many of the younger generation have been let down by the societies they've grown up in. We have failed to give them an accurate view of the world in that they honestly expect things to be "fair" , when the reality is very few things in life are fair. This sets them up for disappointment when they try to make their way in the world.
Just my opinion.

[Serenity]

I have and also know many others who have worked in operations, crewing, dispatch, cabin crew, all to get a foot in the door of an airline and the industry.
Happily I'm pleased to say that all the many people I knew working those jobs are now in paid flying jobs!! Many on boeing and airbus!!
Well done guys snd girls!!

Maybe we should all have done like MiKha an paid through the noses, loaned to the max to get a job straight onto an airbus!!
What we did still didn't come cheap, large loans for courses, low paid jobs and some very hard working hours!!
We all now have a larger appreciation for the industry and a sense of achievement in what we have done.
Next time Mikha you moan at crewing, ops or about the crew, take time to think that you have no idea of how to do their jobs.

I really do hope your initial post was a wind up, but unfortunately for you I think you were serious! Even more unfortunately for you is that you can't see what was wrong about it!!

[KAG]

Any PAID honest hard work is something to be proud of, even for a future pilot.

[stator vane]

We old dogs only did it because we had to and there was no other option.

If there had been the same options as now, I think I could rightfully be called stupid not to take full advantage of them.

So, I cannot throw any rocks at anyone simply because the entire industry has changed by the time they entered the fray. "children of the magenta" were spawned by their respective training departments. Do you honestly expect them to go against what their trainers and checkers who hold the ink pens tell them to do?

We would have been the same if the timing was different.

And both hands up, this reply did cover more than one thread subject.

[cwatters]

Just don't tell a certain Irish Airline that pilots know how to load baggage.

[J.O.]

Well this thread certainly touched a few nerves and justifiably so. As one who had to work their way up, putting in 16 years in the grass roots of the business before getting into my first big jet, I never once felt humiliated. I knew that I was gaining some very valuable experience in that time and appreciated all of it. By working with some excellent colleagues who felt that every day was another opportunity to train, I also learned that no "Buffalo Joes" were going to browbeat me into taking a mission that was unsafe or illegal. I wouldn't have made for very good TV, all thanks to them.

Once I achieved my first big jet command, that time I spent working my way up also gave me an appreciation for the work that the support staff were doing to help us get the mission under way. The only time I ever saw a grumpy captain getting on the case of some poor support staffer - who was just doing their best - was when that captain was someone who had never done such "grunt" work himself. He'd come up through the ranks quickly - due to nothing more than good luck and excellent timing - and the world revolved around him, or so he thought.

If the attitude of the OP - "supported" by PFT and MPL - is really the future of our industry, then heaven help us all. There may be more 37,000 ft plunges in our future ... :hmm:

[dwshimoda]

Well, I'm lucky enough to have 2,500 hours in a shiny jet, and still building, but I would love to go and work for Buffalo. I feel that I lost out on my apprenticeship and experience by going straight to jets, hence I have started SEP flying again in a number of roles, and am looking to become an instructor.

I imagine Buffalo turns out some of the most rounded pilots with a complete knowledge of everything to do with their industry / company - something I am having to actively seek and gain.

We should all know about loading / ops / crewing / commercial / the list goes on.

[911slf]

I am no pilot (unless you include hang gliders), but I did attend a talk given by Ed Mitchell, who started at the bottom. If it's good enough for him....

Edgar Mitchell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Mitchell)

[EDMJ]

Isn't it voluntary to work for Buffalo Airways, or do they snatch people off the streets in the neighbourhood and chain them to the ramp?

[Kingfisher]

I have flown Airbus and Boeing for nine years. Before that I worked the ramp fueling and sweeping hangar floors as a fully qualified Multiengine instrument instructor. If more of the little Emperors in the LHS had done a bit of ramp work they would understand and utilise the crews alot better.
There is never humiliation in work.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Through doing hard work I developed that respect of people from all backgrounds that so many people my age lack.

I chose a non-flying job (outside aviation completely) over a flying job (flying on a basic CPL) because it paid circa £300 a month more. That's £300 a month more I can drop into the bank. In approx. 2 years I will have enough to complete training, and enough over to pay for a type rating (if I so wished...) or get dirty again flying proper aeroplanes in the fun places of the world, safe in the knowledge that I earned every penny and built some real character along the way.

Humiliating? Pah, when needs must :ok:

[His dudeness]

Isn't it voluntary to work for Buffalo Airways, or do they snatch people off the streets in the neighbourhood and chain them to the ramp?

My thoughts exactly.

[Groundloop]

Just don't tell a certain Irish Airline that pilots know how to load baggage.

That was how it was done at PEOPLExpress - pilots loading baggage or manning check-in desks when not flying!

[WanganuiLad]

.....a couple of months even years as a "rampie" loading/unloading cargo, refueling, removing ice, all sorts of ground handling stuff that could be done by anyone before they even get a chance to get in the right seat..... Luxury !!! we never had a ramp, had to lift cargo with teeth...

[GolfTangoFoxtrot]

Please don't think the opinions of the OP represent the 'younger generation'.

[Armchairflyer]

Apart from all discussions about the spoilt youth as opposed to the rugged old-timers (being documented in ancient Greece already) or whether pressure makes diamonds or merely more compact garbage (to quote from a Dilbert strip): is it really helpful for the proficiency and currency of a pilot to do all kinds of support work (instructive and character-building as it may be) without flying an aeroplane for several months?

[Luke SkyToddler]

I don't know if the original poster is for real or not but I was bloody glad to get my first turboprop job, which involved heavy loading of 2 tons of newspapers at 6 am every morning and about the same amount of cargo and freight every afternoon. It was actually a pleasant change for me because before that, I was hand loading hospital stretchers with massively obese patients on them, into the back of a Chieftain in a New Zealand flying-doctor kind of setup.

It's all about attitude, our chief pilot who was ex-RAF fast jet and ex-Cathay was just as happy to muck in and do the heavy lifting. And my wife was ecstatically happy to get the same job, when her turn came around.

Three years of that and I got a good job on the A320, if that's "humiliation" then I heartily recommend it to anyone :ok:

Having subsequently worked with a number of Egyptians at Qatar Airways, I have to say I'm not at all surprised to see the nationality of the original poster or that he might consider such a thing as hard work to be "humiliation" :hmm:

[bluecode]

is it really helpful for the proficiency and currency of a pilot to do all kinds of support work (instructive and character-building as it may be) without flying an aeroplane for several months? It may not help currency. But that isn't the point of the exercise. The person is being assessed by his/her potential future colleagues in terms of their ability to fit in with the ethos of the operation. It is in effect an elongated interview. That's exactly what's happening with the 'rampies' at Buffalo air. I for one would have clambered over hot coals or more appropriately thin ice to get a chance to be a Rampie with Buffalo.

Many smaller operators, skydive outfits, smaller flying schools etc operate on a similar principle. They can't have passengers or glory boys or personalities that clash with their collegues. That's how I got my first flying job. I kept turning up with my smiling face until they got fed up and let me loose on one of their aeroplanes. When the the other pilot left I moved into his job. The pilot who followed me got the same treatment. But others came and went despite them saying they would 'do anything to fly with us'. Apparently turning up regularly and mucking in wasn't one of things they would do. Fail!

Looking at the first series of Ice Pilots there was a character who typified the problem. He bitched a lot and wondered why people were passing him by. Disappeared by the second series unsurprisingly.

Sorts out the Skygods from the pilots.

[Armchairflyer]

Acknowledged, but even if I was sufficiently tough and motivated to be an ice rampie for several months or years, I'd be worried about skill loss and asking myself about the point if all I get to do has little to nothing to do with actual flying. Thoroughly testing for cultural fit, eliminating any skygod attitude etc. is all cool and pro, but there is IMHO some latitude between immediately complimenting a potential new hire into the cockpit and keeping him/her out of it for several months or years to check his preparedness to accept ground duties. And referring to a previous post*), I certainly doubt that months of ramp work are any effective prevention of further "37,000 ft plunges".

Anyway, one must probably not forget that what one gets to see is a TV show. The reality might not be quite as black & white (and full of uncompromising starting-from-scratch-and-remaining-there-for-months-or-years romanticism), so actually new hires may get to log some flying time in addition to doing a fair share of ramp work :-?

*) http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/495961-humiliation-canada.html#post742371 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/495961-humiliation-canada.html#post7423718)

[J.O.]

Nothing like missing the context.

If the attitude of the OP - "supported" by PFT and MPL - is really the future of our industry, then heaven help us all. There may be more 37,000 ft plunges in our future ...

That statement had nothing to do with doing ramp work. It had everything to do with having an attitude of entitlement. It lamented that the OP seemed unwilling to build experience in the industry from the basics on up, and would rather buy their way into a big jet and then belittle the experience of those who got there the hard way.

[fade to grey]

Well, I pushed planes around, had my overalls disintegrate one day when some plonked spilled hydraulic fluid on me......worked only for flying hours for 9 months.....etc.
These were the days of the self improvers, unfortunately I never improved but it did get me a shot at a jet 7 years later.

[Armchairflyer]

Nothing like missing the context.If the attitude of the OP - "supported" by PFT and MPL - is really the future of our industry, then heaven help us all. There may be more 37,000 ft plunges in our future ...That statement had nothing to do with doing ramp work. It had everything to do with having an attitude of entitlement. It lamented that the OP seemed unwilling to build experience in the industry from the basics on up, and would rather buy their way into a big jet and then belittle the experience of those who got there the hard way. No personal offense meant at all, and it was admittedly somewhat out of context. I also agree that having built experience up from the basics is an enormous asset compared to "from zero to shiny jet" regarding well-rounded skills both regarding technical and non-technical aspects (don't see the OP belittling such experiences, though).

Still, I maintain that an "attitude of entitlement" (or just wanting to fly instead of merely doing ramp work when applying for a pilot job) doesn't contribute nearly as much to potential 37k feet plunges as a lack of currency and practice.

[KAG]

Well, if we look at Canada, aviation is playing a big role in this country and the training and hiring system works very well.
Please don't change anything.

[MarkJJ]

Hi Guys

I left the UK having done my PPl Night and IMC, as there was little hope of a job in the UK I came here to Canada and did my hour building, IFR and twin for half the price.

I worked a ramp for a year which is a really good way to weed out the guys who are weak minded, weak in character and have little substance.

It tends, not all the time granted, but it tends to give you the type of guys that after a year of hard work and hardship are what are need in the cockpit in terms of CRM, learning and listening from their captains, putting in the hard work before and post flight, will not just walk away from the aircraft at the end of the day, will help out the ground crews, know lots already about the plane as they have studied it for a year as to be ready for their chance and be the type of guys (and girls) you can rely on on a very cold winters night shooting an approach at a uncontrolled airport.

May be for some of us its a dream that we are willing to do any thing for.

In fact I so impressed with the Canadian way I am writing a book about it.

Hope you guys will like it.

My hard work put me in the right seat of the BE02, no auto pilot, learning so much every day. Hope you understand everything thats going on in your Jet first day you sit in it.

Canada has it right I pray they keep their system and it doesn't turn in to the utter sadness that I see in the UK

Keep the faith you guys that watch planes as kids and dreamt, there's always a way.

[KAG]

Mark: very well put, nice experience of yours which is the kind of experience you'd get in Canada.

[obgraham]

It seems to me the OP didn't really watch the show. The young folks vying for some RHS time in the DC-3 were pleased as heck to be there. And the company boss, when he had them flying with him was teaching the whole time. He wanted them prepared (read the manuals, imagine that!), and understanding the responsibility involved from the very first minute in the aircraft.
He was a serious and hard-nosed teacher (well, except the time the Great Dane crapped all over the cabin), because it's a serious and hard-nosed environment he's operating in. His young trainees should be honored to be there, and they'll turn out well.

(**Full disclosure: just a PPL here!)

[kolle]

Being from the Land of Ice and Snow, and having gone thru my dues, I find no problem with the system. I lived and worked up in Yellowknife doing cargo, tickets, boarding then flight watch. To say I learnt something is an understatment. I was a young man with dreams of flying in my eyes. This "humiliating" work opened my eyes to appreciate what it takes for a plane to go from A to B.
Aviation is teamwork. Not just in the cockpit, but the entire company. When I see a guy outside in the driving rain and sleet struggling to do his job, I don't sit there and slag him off for being slow. I understand the difficulty of his job. I have flown with countless young FO's who want to blame the ground crews for being two minutes late. They have no idea. They have mostly never done a hard days work in their lives.
Working your way up from the ramp is IMHO part of your aviation apprentiship. Use the time to learn and you will become a better pilot. It shows. It really does.

[fade to grey]

To be fair, the 250hr wonder kids have proved time and time again that it is possible to go straight to the RHS of an A320.Sad but true.

Now if I could have avoided being covered in oil and god knows what under a dismantled 172 I would have done.Same goes for doing my back in humping spares about.

Always enjoy flying with career changers - they have seen how bad 'normal' jobs can be and are thus, generally,very keen.

[canuck1977]

Just because a 250hr wonder can pass a A320 check ride, does not mean they deserve to be there. Modern jets are highly automated wonders of technology, but when that technology breaks down (and it does happen), they revert to becoming just airplanes again. And when unexpected things happen quickly you need to be able to stow emotion, think clearly and get the job done.

The point is that the time and effort one puts in before they are in the seat of that shinny jet for the first time does more than build character. It weeds out those who do not have the commitment to treat every aspect of their environment and team with respect. Of course slinging bags and fuelling planes does nothing for your hands and feet skills, but it does put pressure on someone to think quickly, react to the unexpected and work with a team to accomplish a common goal. It's a way for an employer to assess whether or not they should advance said person to subsequent roles with progressively greater levels of responsibility. Basically a good employer knows what we all know. Anyone with enough money can pay for all the flight training in the world, but still not have the qualities to operate a commercial aircraft safely, both in normal an abnormal situations. And there is no easy way to determine these qualities other than to witness them in action.

I spent a few years "paying my dues" in the Canadian north both in and out of the cockpit, but what I realize now is that the experience I gained there has made me a better pilot and hopefully a better person. Now that I do fly a shinny jet and all my training is in simulators, I'm very grateful that my metal has been tested in less than ideal situations (including a few inflight emergencies). Because those experiences both on the ground and in the air have given me the confidence that I will be able to react well in a bad situation, tempered with the humility that me and my team can only do our best.

Good luck to all of us, hopefully we can avoid more 37k plunges.

[stuckgear]

i used to be management in an operation with Challengers and Gulfstreams, our pilots Captains and F/O's used to do such lowly things as hump baggage at 3am.

Of course, that's GA where even being in the pointy end of a 30mUSD jet cuts no slack in getting the job done.

but then flip side to that is wannabes dont go from 250 hrs to Gulfstream cockpit in one step.

[Greenlights]

hey,

To tell a bit my experience:

I did many jobs to refund my loan, and some of them was cleaning operator, I clean floors of supermarket and toilets... I had my Cpl/Ir mcc FI.

For me, it was not a humiliation at all. I just did a job to pay back my bank. And all the time I think in a positive way, I have learned things in my life. I learn how to clean, how to respect a timing, how to deal with customers, etc.

Guess what ? I start soon on A320 in Asia after 5 years of jobs like that, TR paid by my airline. I've only 700h total, in single engine piston :) I don't even look at employment website, I breath again, I don't even think or read about P2F... I am proud of myself, worked hard and make contacts, no jet experience, no hours on type...everything's possible.

So, if I had to do it again ? I will do it.

Humble people, hard worker, good attitude, will make it. It's not about jobs or else...it's about personnality.

[beardedclam]

Presume you must be a troll, or see you next Tuesday. If some of that "humiliation" resulted in the RHS, I would jump at the opportunity, as would EVERY unemployed low hour guy/girl I know..... You are talking some serious :mad:. There is no "entitlement" to a job.....