Sydney ATC Assistance

[YSMB]

Hello all,

Long time no speak...

We have come across a strange issue with Sydney ATC refusing clearance for a heli dropping skydivers. Would any ATCers here be able to help, at least to understand the system...

Cheers
Pete

[YSMB]

Of course:

Drop zone is at YSMB, Somersby NSW.

Drops are asking for 10-14,000, 4 drops, 12 chutes over and done in 1-2 hours.

There is an operation at YWVA Warnervale in the same airspace going to 14,000 without problems.

I spoke to Sydney Control and the response I got was "we don't think it's an appropriate activity for Somersby"

[ollie_a]

Not sure why, don't do that airspace.

Did they give any other details when you phoned them?

It may be due proximity to the Calga STAR especially when on R16 at SY.

[Jack Ranga]

I spoke to Sydney Control and the response I got was "we don't think it's an appropriate activity for Somersby"

It's not up to them to decide, take it higher (Canberra).

[tyler_durden_80]

It absolutley is up to Sydney ATC to decide. Taking it to Canberra is a laughable suggestion, and a waste of everyone's time.

We are talking about a VFR clearence into class 'C' airspace in the vicinity of a STAR (CAA8) into Sydney, with turbos and jets on descent with the STARs associated height requirements. Throw into the mix Sydney departures and their height requirements, plus the required 3 n/m seperation from the PJE aircraft, for 2 hours worth of parachute drops from FL140. And it's not just the one level they'd be seperating from, but every level in CTA beneath the para aircraft. I really have no idea why Sydney ATC are not interested...

The difference with WVA is that it is not in the vicinity of any STAR, and far enough north (45n/m) that getting departures over the top of the drop zone is not an issue. But even then it is a pain with Jet arrivals from the south into WLM, as the first enroute sector have to seperate 5 n/m from the entire drop zone.

Sydney ATC are not being mean just for the sake of it, it would simply have an adverse impact on too many factors to be considered.

[Jack Ranga]

We are talking about a VFR clearence into class 'C' airspace in the vicinity of a STAR (CAA8) into Sydney, with turbos and jets on descent with the STARs associated height requirements. Throw into the mix Sydney departures and their height requirements, plus the required 3 n/m seperation from the PJE aircraft, for 2 hours worth of parachute drops from FL140. And it's not just the one level they'd be seperating from, but every level in CTA beneath the para aircraft. I really have no idea why Sydney ATC are not interested...

Ahhh, sorry, forgot, Sydney is a special case :D

God forbid a service is provided to an aviation airspace user :mad:

Get over yourselves and make it work............

Taking it to Canberra is a laughable suggestion

Are you forgetting why you are there? Safe, orderly & expeditious doesn't mean that you get to say 'too hard, too much traffic and I'm farrrrrrr too busy' A separation standard is just that. Are you saying you can't apply 3 miles between a jumpship and other aircraft?

And don't give me the bullsh!t about them not paying for it VFR, fuel subsidies etc.

As I said, get over yourselves, everybody else makes it work.

[Jack Ranga]

As tyler_durden_80 said, it is close to the Calga 8 arrival

There are dropzones and PJE happening under stars elsewhere...........If you want to see how it's done in the centres, pop on a famil flight and we'll show you how it's done.

[Wally Mk2]

Thread drift here but worth a mention & a laugh:)

Outbound from Syd last night ATC was asked by someone on the airways what does the orange triangle on his GPS screen mean? The guy at the consul handled this odd request well after a pause was noticed (am sure many drivers where scratching their heads a little when they heard that one:)). After a short while the ATC'er came back & mentioned that it was probably a restricted area or words to that effect. Well it did give us a chuckle after a hard day at the 'office':ok:

ATC, always there to help just like ya mum:ok:

As for the drop zone thingy, often get held up at F150 inbound to SY from ML due lawn darts. It's a bit like the day many years ago when I asked a big truck driver way out near Fitzroy Crossing (he was big as well as his rig) you guys think you own the damned rd!!!!.........he came back real quick & said nope just the black bit !!!:E


Wmk2

[Jack Ranga]

PM sent.............

[tyler_durden_80]

Jack, you're obiviously one of those controllers who are either...
a: Holding on too tight; or
b: seen 'Pushing Tin' too many times.

A simple look at the Calga 8 plate would show that the height requirement of 'at or below A070' at Lanol is a single reason why meat bombs dropping from FL140 for 2 hours won't work. A basic understanding of the airspace you are offering an opinion on would help next time.

'Safe, orderly & expeditious' is the exact reason why PJE ops at Somersby should never happen. VFR has nothing to do with it.

[sprocket check]

YSMB is 4.9nm from CALGA NDB almost due east, 15nm+ from LANOL. CALGA Holding is to the west of the NDB. Same block of airspace as WVA.

The only traffic within 3nm of the airfield is either local guys, monthly gas pipe inspections or an occasional stray heading to BROOKLYN for VFR lane to BK. The field is too scary for the BK schools... for the most part.

I can count the number of aircraft on a busy day with one hand.

The guys were jumping all day Sunday, about 8 or 10 loads to 10k with no problem from ATC or area traffic. Something happened between Sunday and today in STC.

IFR traffic very rarely if ever gets within the vicinity of the aerodrome. The heli does a climbing circuit, essentially within the confines of the circuit area.

Tyler: Are you a Sydney ATC'er? Then you would already know all of the above.

Wollongong, Picton, WVA, Wilton, all these dropzones are as close or closer to routes, reporting points, etc as Somersby. In BNE they drop 9nm from the terminal! What is so special about this situation?

[Jack Ranga]

Jack, you're obiviously one of those controllers who are either...
a: Holding on too tight; or
b: seen 'Pushing Tin' too many times.

Seriously mate, grow up. I'll ask again: Are you there for the aviation industry or does the aviation industry purely exist to employ you.

You should get out and about and talk to pilots that fly every day. It is not good. I fly a bit, I talk to pilots RPT and GA about the service they are getting, basicallly they think we are a pack of pricks. It might help if you travel a bit and see what ATC's overseas are doing (I'm not talking about 3rd world or Communist 'providers') and the traffic they are moving.

'Safe, orderly & expeditious' is the exact reason why PJE ops at Somersby should never happen. VFR has nothing to do with it.

Why? Because you can't handle the workload? Because there is a constant stream of aircraft, 3 miles apart on that star 24 hours a day?

A simple look at the Calga 8 plate would show that the height requirement of 'at or below A070' at Lanol is a single reason why meat bombs dropping from FL140 for 2 hours won't work

So? How about getting off your arse and working out a way for it to work?

[Jack Ranga]

YSMB is 4.9nm from CALGA NDB almost due east, 15nm+ from LANOL. CALGA Holding is to the west of the NDB. Same block of airspace as WVA.

The only traffic within 3nm of the airfield is either local guys, monthly gas pipe inspections or an occasional stray heading to BROOKLYN for VFR lane to BK. The field is too scary for the BK schools... for the most part.

I can count the number of aircraft on a busy day with one hand.

The guys were jumping all day Sunday, about 8 or 10 loads to 10k with no problem from ATC or area traffic. Something happened between Sunday and today in STC.

IFR traffic very rarely if ever gets within the vicinity of the aerodrome. The heli does a climbing circuit, essentially within the confines of the circuit area.

Tyler: Are you a Sydney ATC'er? Then you would already know all of the above.

Wollongong, Picton, WVA, Wilton, all these dropzones are as close or closer to routes, reporting points, etc as Somersby. In BNE they drop 9nm from the terminal! What is so special about this situation?

Well, it appears that someone has done a little more research and has more airspace knowledge than: Tyler (Billy Bob) Durden

A basic understanding of the airspace you are offering an opinion on would help next time.

[sprocket check]

70 aircraft landed on 16L+R yesterday. About 45% of those came via CALGA.

So 40 aircraft over a 10 hour block 5nm away can't fit in with a heli transiting for 3 minutes and using 2500 feet of vertical C space for the drop from 10k?

I fly all the time in as a pax up and down the j curve as well as private (well, not enough of that one), I have yet to get close enough to Somersby on return from Brisvegas...