ACARS Costs

[scandistralian]

I was hoping someone in the know might be able to help with this;

1) Recently, VHF datalink failed, but SATCOM worked, does requesting the route via Satcom instead of VHF Datalink cost much more?

2) The enroute weather was dodgy, so decided to retrieve an update but my colleague advised against it as all wx requests cost $100, which seems very steep to me, could there be any truth in this

Thanks for any info!

[JohnieWalker]

Both of those depend on contracts your company has. Those may be varying between paying for amount of messages, or for amount of data transferred, or having 1000 messages inclusive then on 1001 you pay by the kilobytes.

SATCOM basically will be pricier than VHF, en-route weather request shouldn't really be that expensive though.

I stand to be corrected.

[halas]

Your colleague seems to know. Why ask?

Who cares?

Halas

[Mr Good Cat]

What a strange thing for your colleague to be concerned about. If the enroute weather is dodgy and you want to improve your situational awareness with the latest METARs then do it.

If VHF datalink is u/s and it costs the company more money to improve your SA then so be it! Of course you always have HF volmets as an option if you can find them quickly enough from the Gen Text Manual but I wouldn't be overly concerned about price.

Where is this cost-over-sensibility mindset coming from? Is it something that's coming with new Captains, or maybe from the training department? I hope this isn't what they're pushing through during command training :oh:

Just my two cents.

[helen-damnation]

the cost was part of a total package and not a use by use basis and to use the service as much as I wanted.

I was told the same thing. If you need it, use it.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

If we are talking about EK, then if I remember correctly there was something in the latest Training newsletter about the subject. Can't remember exactly what it said. On the portal.
Subject was probably raised by some of the new TRI-AOs etc,who have 6 months command time :ugh::ugh:

I was always under the impression that EK buy bulk capacity for uploads of info. Paying per wx request, message would seem an expensive proposition. Given the fact that no one(no nasty letters from above), has ever question my use of the acars, I will keep requesting what I want, when I want.

SyB :zzz:

[scandistralian]

Thanks for info all, I guess as has been pointed out, if it cost a fortune they would let us know... :ok:

IMA birdbrain, good point re SAT data charges, I doubt wx and new wind updates would be data heavy.

[safelife]

The cost of a weather request is well below 1 USD (for a single request) unless your company is having very unfortunate contracts.

[CanadaKid]

Avoid fly with XXXXXX

[Batman777]

It's in the B777 FCOM.
"Crew may elect to obtain weather information from either the company LIDO database, or from SITA. The first preference is LIDO, due to cost benefits. Weather requests should be kept to a minimum and should only be actioned when VOLMETs are not available, the destination forecast is at or below CAT1 minima, the aircraft is within 90 minutes of the destination, and the crew deem the ACARS weather request function the most efficient means of retrieving the weather"

[baps]

Apparently LIDO wx requests are free but you (the company not you personally!!) pay a small fee for SITA!

[jumbocpt]

some years ago on a line check to Cairo, on a CAVOK day, i requested ACARS wx for CAI during the enroute phase of boredom.
The check airmen, said...you just cost the company the equivilant of $3 for that request. Somewhat cynical, but i retorted...it was ok because i didnt have a crew meal.
I've been doing this job for more years than i care to admit to and it's the same story in most companies.

"they step on the ants, but the elephants run wild" when i comes to financial planning.

[CAYNINE]

A few years ago that wonderful man capt Ed..... :yuk:, wrote an email tellingus not to get any enroute weather via ACARS, this was to save money on ACARS paper, which he quoted as "in excess of $50" no mention of the service cost. What the intelligent being missed was the two meters of engineering report being spewed out every sector.

[tangpig]

As a engineer, I offen saw some non-tech msg downlinked to MC to question about game score requesting by passenger. So I guess the cost won't be expensive.

[Mr Good Cat]

8.3.0.6.5 Weather Monitoring

Whilst en-route, flight crew are required to monitor the current and forecasted weather conditions at the planned destination, the destination alternate, and any required en-route alternates.

Couldn't be any clearer.

Applied in coordination with the FCOM recommendations you get any weather you feel you need via the appropriate channels.

ED wasn't ever a long-haul commander and never flew outside the USA... therefore I would take any of his previous advice with a pinch of salt.

:ok:

[John21UK]

With Gulf Air we do 't have any restrictions on using it and haven't heard anyone not using it for costs reasons. Personally, I don't give a rats ass about costs. If I need it I use it. I can see a point about being sensible like not checking your hometoens metar or somewhere in the caribbean.

[halas]

@Tangpig

"As a engineer, l offen saw.....". :hmm:

Back to thread.

Have often put requests in for sports scores, and all but a few get answered.

But if there is a restriction, then don't tell Hannes! :ok:

halas

[falconeasydriver]

But if there is a restriction, then don't tell Hannes!

You read my mind....:E

"good morning gents........" :ok:

[CAYNINE]

Everyone loves Hannes!

[SOPS]

Hannes is the best, gets my vote:ok:

[Capt Groper]

I was advised by a senior manager in flight ops, he who knows the cost, that if you need to update enroute WX then don't hesitiate. The cost is miniscule compared to the total communication costs pre flight.

Many parameters are sent without our knowledge all the time! Some to EK and other messages to the manufacturers of the airframe and engines.

Therefore one or two added WX requests may only add a few extra kbs to already hundreds automatically sent without pilot knowledge.

;)

[flaphandlemover]

Hannes is the best!

just wish, he would send it onto the screen not the printer...

Hannes you ROCK!!!!

keep it coming...:ok::ok:

[Poire]

The ACARS function is there to be used. Common sense is the word, though. I've seen guys requesting the weather for every possible airport en route, even when you can see their runways from 500 miles away.
Many moons ago I was told by one SMNC that it cost 37 cents of a US dollar per request. The use of ACARS was never an issue here, but some newbies keep raising these questions. Those costs are basically none of our business.

[three eighty]

just wish, he would send it onto the screen not the printer…

I prefer him sending it to the printer regardless of what the bloody paper costs. His service is first rate. I wish we had more like him working in that department.
Keep up the good work Hannes!

[FuelFlow]

I just spoke to Hannes, the only extra cost is the paper! Good Job Hannes :D

[VONKLUFFEN]

Our cost:
125 characters =.75us cents
Average #of characters per TAF / Metar/ ATIS =250=1.5usd
If a crew prints ONLY ONE of this(assuming that the briefing documents do not have and already accurate TAF or Metar) per sector the outcome is as follows:
We have around 5000 sectors per month
5000 sectors x1.5usd=7500usd per month=90000usd per year!
NOW how many times have you see a colleague print the same **** every hour on a flight that will last 12, just to realize that during approach the rwy was changed at the last minute.
If this is the case, make the numbers and they will keep adding up.
If we as professionals, (forget the airline management , chief pilot, crappy schedule) don't behave as such, no complaining or winning when they make us redundant, cut our pay or there is no future expansion. The fact is that those ACARSHOLICS became part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

[captainsmiffy]

Whilst I know that 21 tonne experience 'doesnt count' for owt out here (!!), a note of caution to all those who are wondering why their colleagues are 'wasting' ACARS time on airports that you can see 'from 500 miles away....'. - 'twas in the UK, hurtling across Hampshire at FL280, an hour or two following the passage of a particularly virulent cold front...you could see for miles, a beautiful day. "Would you mind getting me the weather for SOU please", I asked of the F/O. He looked aghast, "Why? i can see it" said he. "humuor me" said I, because I suspected that something was up....sure enough, minutes later, after a VOLMET session he came back with the fact that not only was it closed but so were many of the other fields en-route, due to severe icing on the runways and taxiways! Indeed, we spent a long time holding overhead destination, awaiting de-icing of the airport before diverting to about one of the only UK fields actually currently open, and all in glorious weather! However, as I said, 21 tonne experience counts for 'owt.....proper european weather in winter can sometimes catch the unwary out, especially if you are entrenched in the middle-east mindset and that you know best! Some of us in the RHS have seen more than you might give credit for......

[falconeasydriver]

Our cost:
125 characters =.75us cents
Average #of characters per TAF / Metar/ ATIS =250=1.5usd
If a crew prints ONLY ONE of this(assuming that the briefing documents do not have and already accurate TAF or Metar) per sector the outcome is as follows:
We have around 5000 sectors per month
5000 sectors x1.5usd=7500usd per month=90000usd per year!
NOW how many times have you see a colleague print the same **** every hour on a flight that will last 12, just to realize that during approach the rwy was changed at the last minute.
If this is the case, make the numbers and they will keep adding up.
If we as professionals, (forget the airline management , chief pilot, crappy schedule) don't behave as such, no complaining or winning when they make us redundant, cut our pay or there is no future expansion. The fact is that those ACARSHOLICS became part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

Good grief! talk about penny foolish..90K USD per year????? if you think that sum of money is a large amount in the grand sceme of things, then I'm afraid you are looking in the wrong place:ugh:
Hmmmm I wonder what a pair of brake units on the 380 go for these days :ugh:

[captainsmiffy]

If we were REALLY being cost-conscious as an airline then we wouldnt insist upon the CC flying every sector with all of their manuals on them in case of equipment change! Consider the increase in weight being carried (x26!) per a/c and multiply this by all of the sectors flown over a year.....then consider just how much extra fuel we have burnt as a result.....methinks that ACARS costs pale into insignificance. Same old problem, though. Somebody elses budget, their problem......

[Payscale]

ACARS data is like fuel. Use it if you need it...
No point in checking the weather on the other side of the globe, just because you are bored.

[VONKLUFFEN]

csmiffy, fully agree.
"...pale into insignificance...?" Give me that as a year end bonus.
It all ads up.

Driver:
The last time you got a pay cut , didn't get a decent per Diem or a pay raise must have been around what +/- 1000 us? I bet you were very upset. Now you are trying to convince us all that 90000 doesn't mean anything?
Wait a second , yep is not that much, agree. Is around 60% of my annual income...
No hard feelings.

[falconeasydriver]

Driver:
The last time you got a pay cut , didn't get a decent per Diem or a pay raise must have been around what +/- 1000 us? I bet you were very upset. Now you are trying to convince us all that 90000 doesn't mean anything?
Wait a second , yep is not that much, agree. Is around 60% of my annual income...
No hard feelings. Vonk, you have missed the/my point entirely

Please note I said in the grand scheme of things, nowhere did I mention as an individuals income.
Ever heard of the statement "if you think safety is expensive..try having an accident"
The ability to access relevant and pertinent MET info via ACARS is one little piece of the chain that allows us to maintain adequate SA as well as keep ourselves ahead of the curve, and better yet, allow us to have considered options BEFORE we might need them.
If you believe that 90K USD per year to achieve this, plus gaining a few more things besides is too great a price to pay, then perhaps you need to revisit a few incidents over the years where timely information could have been that last little signpost down the road where an accident or incident occured.
In an organization such as ours with nearly 200 airframes that operates to some of the most challenging parts of the globe, I'd contend that our flight Ops people would happily swallow 5 or even 10 times that cost to mitigate an incident or hull loss.
With respect to payrises or cuts etc, far be it for me to assume, but I know my wife and kids would happily not stay in a 5 star hotel this year..but have dad home.

[VONKLUFFEN]

Driver :
My most sincere apology. I get your point now.
Take the lovely wife and beautiful kids to have dinner thinking you did a great job last duty and you deserve it, as well.

Cheers!