Logging ULR time in an EASA Logbook

[MontyWithnail]

Hello, this is probably an old chestnut, but search hasn't enlightened me so far..

I'm based outside the EASA area and have recently started doing long augmented trips with three or four crew. My main licence is an EASA one though and all my time until recently was logged in Europe.

So, I would like to know how augmented time is logged in Europe, as i would like my logbook to remain compliant with EASA. Basically - how do Lufthansa, Air France and BA log stick time vs rest time on long sectors?

Ideally i would like a reference for an EASA document which lays down the law on this? I've searched on their impenetrable website and got nowhere!

Thanks.

[LeadSled]

Monty,
You are legally obliged to log your hours as required by the (ICAO member) state that authorizes the operation, and issued the license on which you are flying.

If it is a wet or damp lease, it will (probably) be state under whose rules the operator is registered and has an AOC. Consult your company documentation.

In reality, both the above paragraphs have the same meaning.
To log hours otherwise than in compliance with the rules where you are flying is criminal fraud, and not view highly by the Airstapo.

You can always keep a second log book (as well), my suggestion if often that you should keep a log book that complies with ICAO Annex 1, then any prospective employers, wherever they may be, have a common base of information.

There is nothing particularly sacrosanct about EASA "rules", apart from being stuck with them (with national variations --- beware the national variations) if the carrier is in an EASA country.

[MontyWithnail]

Hello Leadsled,

I understand what you're driving at, but in reality the company and regulator of the country in which I work have no interest in my logbook at all, as they already have the data and can apply their own rules to the stick time / rest time thing on URL trips.

The next time that my logbook would be looked at, would be in Europe I expect - if I add ratings to my EASA licence or if I decided to change jobs one day. I know from others experiences that the euro authorities can get a bit sniffy about time logged elsewhere which is not in accordance with euro rules - requiring the logbook to be re-written, that sort of thing.

That's what I am trying to avoid, that's all.

[wiggy]

Basically - how do Lufthansa, Air France and BA log stick time vs rest time on long sectors?

In one of the above airlines the nominated captain logs the whole flight time as P1 and commander, irrespective of rest time - on the basis he/she is in charge for the whole flight. The other crew members only log the proportion of the total flying time they spent at the controls as P1, P2 etc, but everybody still needs a record somewhere of the total flight time (for FTL and medical licencing purposes).......to do this I use one of the "spare" columns to log total hours, irrespective of role.

[MontyWithnail]

Hi wiggy,

Thanks for your input - do you have any sort of reference for that information? Or does anyone else?

I've talked to some guys who log every hour regardless of role - 'because they are a required crew member' etc, even if they're augmenting and on a rest period. Some others do the same as you have said, but treat the operating FO the same as the operating captain - so the FO logs rest time too on an operating sector. Some others just log the time at the controls, whatever their role.

I'm not sure whether this issue is actually specified by ICAO/EASA, as it is a separate issue to the FTL limitations. Anyone know?

[Md-driver]

Hi.

Checking the EASA website, I came up with this.
It would depend if you are PiC or co-pilot. In the text it also specifies that PiC is appointed by the operator for the flight.

2. Logging of time
2.1. Pilot*in*command flight time
a. The holder of a licence may log as pilot*in*command time all of the flight time during which he is the pilot*in*command.

2.2. Co*pilot flight time. The holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co*pilot may log all flight time as co*pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
2.3. Cruise relief co*pilot flight time. A cruise relief co*pilot pilot may log all flight time as co*pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat.

http://easa.europa.eu/rulemaking/docs/npa/2008/NPA%202008-17b.pdf

Hope this helps

Edit: scroll down to page 173

[MontyWithnail]

Md driver, cheers for the link, much appreciated.

I can see where the different interpretations of this come from.

There's no mention of augmenting pilots. The reference to 'cruise relief co-pilots' is presumably about the guys some airlines have who fly during the cruise only - is that correct?? I couldn't find a definition for 'cruise relief co-pilot' in the document, but on page 9 it details their different currency requirements (because they don't takeoff or land during normal ops, so the 3 landings in 90 days thing doesn't apply to them) - which implies that those are the guys they are talking about in para 2.3.

Which leaves para 2.2 for 'normal' co-pilots and says they may log 'all flight time'. Not sure whether this means all the time the aircraft is flying, or all the time they are at the controls flying..

personally, i would rather just have stick time in my total flying hours, not the time in the tail end, but the pedant in me wants to get it right according to the regs..

[Md-driver]

Hi Monty

For para 2.2 observe the wording occupying a pilots seat...the same goes for relief pilots.

I may be wrong but the way I read it, it would mean that you can log the time that you are in the pilots seat only ( "stick time as PF or PM) , not the time spent in the bunk or rest seat.

Augmented crew would log their time in the seat as normal co-pilots. So if you have 2 co-pilots the two co-pilots log the time that they are in their seat. If you have a second comander he can log PiC time for his time in seat. The flight PiC (mission commander, or what you want to call it) can log the entire flight time irrespective of seat time.

Again I might be reading this wrong..

Brgds