Don't fly over my house...

[Blue Bottle]

Home owner takes on 'Horray Henry' Pilots..

Do we have that many Pilots called Henry ? ;)

Home owner who took on RAF’s 'Hooray Henry’ pilots - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9542067/Home-owner-who-took-on-RAFs-Hooray-Henry-pilots.html)

[Halton Brat]

Mmmm..........fast jet flying training has been conducted at Valley & Mona for 50+ years........do some research if you are going to buy a property anywhere in the vicinity of a runway.......suspect the Viet Taff at work here.....

(ex-4FTS)HB

[goudie]

Do we have that many pilots called Heny?


If we have, then hooray for Henry:ok:

[strikemaster82]

The kid's nursery he mentions is towards the end of downwind lefthand for RW22. Jets have flown over there, as HB says, for many years.

As a chartered surveyor, would he not have consulted maps before buying rental properties, and so be aware of the proximity of RAF Mona?

If you're unlucky, you could even collect a Hawk in your field :sad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/425000/images/_428791_raf_crash300.jpg

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Surely this is a PR dream? He opened a nursery and holiday rental business under the circuit of a very old and very busy RAF airfield - then complains about aircraft. He, during a time when RAF pilots are in theatre in Afghan, then threatens to raise a balloon the only purpose of which is to create a lethal hazard to pilots.


He is a gift if the MoD had the balls to exploit him and help foster an association between unreasonableness and low flying protestors in the publics mind.


WWW

[merlinxx]

Yer mans a total Numpty:mad:

Merlin aka "White Welsh Dwarf"

[Halton Brat]

Now that my blood-pressure Relief Valve is in operation, I recall a case in recent years where a couple bought some crumbling pile near Wittering, then proceeded to sue MoD for the distress caused by those pesky Harriers which disturbed the tranquility of this pastoral oasis.

These people extracted a huge settlement from MoD; I can't recall the sum, but it featured more Zeros than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

Blood pressure still climbing; will bite the throat out of a Pit-Bull terrier, should the opportunity arise.

HB

[Janda]

When I was at Spadeadam 20 years or so ago one of the most frequent complainers against low flying was an ex RAF Squadron Leader. Ironically he was one of the pilots at RAF Topcliffe whilst I was doing my AEOp training.

[The Helpful Stacker]

A story from a few years back relating to RAF Odiham and the use of God's gift to the aviation world.

Link here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1514141/Manor-house-is-being-shaken-to-pieces-by-RAF-Chinooks.html)

Perhaps this comment says it all (considering they brought the house in 1985),

Wg Cdr Trevor Field, an RAF spokesman, said: "We are not unsympathetic to the problems faced by Mrs Wallinger but the fact is she moved into a house that is directly under the designated flight path. There have been Chinooks at Odiham since 1982.

He could have added that the airfield had been active since 1937 as an RAF airfield but 1925 as an aircraft operating site.

[foxvc10]

Speak of the devil....I just had two Chinooks land in my "back garden"

Both have just left after 777 had a birdstrike and the other one (AN) landed to provide support

Has rather brightened my day up!!

To the crew - I was the hairy bloke!!

[earswentpop]

HB

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Lincolnshire | Couple win jet noise claim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/2952611.stm)

Presumably, Mr & Mrs Dennis must have viewed Walcott Hall on a Sunday evening between Christmas and New Year, so surprised did they appear when aircraft from the airfield less than 2 miles away on the extended centreline overflew their property.

They got £950,000 of our money; the source of the noise permanently ceased 7 years later. I wrote to my MP to invite him to instigate a substantial refund. Mr Shailesh Vara MP was intensely relaxed about the retention of the entire payment.

I am intensely relaxed about never again voting for him, or his party.

[newt]

He should have been there in the late 60s and early 70s! Gnats, Hunters, Lightnings and anyone else with a large noisey aeroplane would have been happy to upset him day or night!

All I can say to the boys and girls at Valley is " Lower and faster please!":ok::ok:

[DX Wombat]

Shobdon's prize nuisance received a visit from Plod after he threatened to set up a clay pigeon shooting range in his back garden. :E

[racedo]

Where is that "Piss off Biggles" photo when you need it...

[DX Wombat]

Here you are. ;)

http://www.targeta.co.uk/images/piss_off_biggles.jpeg

[NutLoose]

East Midlands Airport (EMA) has received almost 8,000 complaints in the past year - most from just five people worried about noise, the airport said.


Retired air traffic controller, David Coulson, said he was methodical about registering his complaints.

"Every time I'm disturbed, I note the time down, that's it. It works out at about 150 to 200 times a month."

Guess where he used to work and as the SATCO no less....... :ugh:

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Derbyshire | Airport's noise complaints soar (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/6904848.stm)

[racedo]

DX

Damm and thanks as figured would take least 15 minutes rather that 4 before someone posted it :ok:

[DX Wombat]

Racedo, if you need it again you can find it under "Piss off Biggles" in Giggle Images.

[salad-dodger]

They got £950,000 of our money; the source of the noise permanently ceased 7 years later. I wrote to my MP to invite him to instigate a substantial refund. Mr Shailesh Vara MP was intensely relaxed about the retention of the entire payment.

I remember hearing a while ago that whilst the judge awarded approx £1M compensation, he did not award them costs, which were close to £1M. Anyone know any more about that?

S-D

[Roland Pulfrew]

Curiouser and curiouser:

THIS SEPTIC ISLE - Rebecca Television (http://www.rebeccatelevision.com/articles/septic_isle) :suspect:

[1.3VStall]

No doubt if the RAF announced that Valley was to close, the same tw@t would be lobbying his MP about the adverse effect on the local economy.:ugh:

[air pig]

Why can't they come over my house instead:{

[Shack37]

Why can't they come over my house insteadhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif


You must submit a formal request on F1/Buzz_Me_Please, providing your sat antenna Lat/Long and a certified copy of adequate insurance cover.

Enjoy

[alwayzinit]

I understand that the NIMBY problem is not a recent evolution, during the summer of 1940 there were a significant number of noise complaints from some near to Biggin Hill!:ugh:

That said I thought the Blues and Royals were Hooray Henrys and we were just Boys in Blue!

[A2QFI]

Wittering compensation was £950K AND they didn't have to refund any of it when Harrier flying ceased - SFAIK

One Crown Office Row - Article (http://www.1cor.com/1158/?form_1155.replyids=4)

[Goprdon]

The wally threatening to fly a balloon close to RAF Valley should be made aware of the Article in the "Air Navigation Order"
Endangering safety of an Aircraft
A person shall not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft or any person therein.
Flying a ballon with the intention of endangering an aircraft can be an offence.

As to the claimants near Wittering I think the case should have been vigorously defended
Shortly after the 1914-1918 war and following some claims for damages for noise nuisance a House of Commons Committee was set up chaired by an MP who later became a Very Important Person. The result was a Civil Aviation Act with a Section headed "Trespass by aircraft and aircraft nuisance,noise etc.".
In the current Civil Aviation Act this is Section 76 and reads:
76__(1) No action shall lie in respect of trespass or in respect of nuisance, by reason only of the flight of an aircraft over any property at a height above the ground which, having regard to, wind . weather and all the circumstances of the case is reasonable, or the ordinary incidents of such flight so long as as the provisions of any Air Navigation Order......have been duly complied with.... .
Section 76__(2) of the Act allows for compensation for material loss without proof of negligence where a loss is caused by the flight of an aircraft.

Do military aircraft have the same protection as civil aircraft from the complainers?

[Martin the Martian]

Curiouser and curiouser:

THIS SEPTIC ISLE - Rebecca Television (http://www.rebeccatelevision.com/articles/septic_isle)


Seems like he has done much worse for Anglesey than any number of jets.

By the way, can any of you pilot persons define 'laissez-faire' flying?:confused:

[NutLoose]

Wittering compensation was £950K AND they didn't have to refund any of it when Harrier flying ceased - SFAIK

Well surely there must be way of arranging overflights from what's left of the RAF so as to be seen to be getting good value for money.

[tonker]

My oldest friend had a yogurt knitting trot as a boss, who hated the military(especially the US) and aircraft so much, she move to.....Fairford.

Every year she goes on holiday when the airshow is on, as she hates the military being in HER backyard. In 93 when she got back she found a Mig 29 had flat spun into her garden destroying her crap peace ornaments in the process.

Ohhhhh how we laughed:E

[OvertHawk]

Martin...

I should imagine Jones can define laissez-faire quite well.... It seems to be the attitude he has to any form of law or regulation that does not suit his purpose.

Stop flying over his kindergarden and get his house in as the waypoint instead!

OH

[mike-wsm]

It's not the noise that worries me, it's the cavalier attitude. One has only to read the official accident reports to learn just what attitude some allegedly professional service pilots have toward safety procedures. If they overfly, be scared, very, very scared.

[TurningFinals]

Whilst this is purely speculation on my part, his nursery business may not exist in the first place if he didn't have a camp's worth of scaley brats to attend it..?

As for the raising of a weather balloon - does he really think that risking the lives of aircrew just because he doesn't like the noise of jets flying over is justified? :ugh:

[Running_In]

As a QSP who does low fly on a fairly regular basis in something that is loud enough and does generate noise complaints I feel very lonely having a lot of sympathy for people who find them selves near a busy airfield and are taken by surprise by the noise..

Now, I'm just addressing a couple of what seem to be recurring arguments in this area and expecting a hail of incoming!

1. If they don't like the noise they shouldn't have moved near an airfield.

This seems like a really illogical argument. Not with standing the fact that most people only get to go house hunting on a weekend when there probably isn't much flying going and therefore probably aren't prepared for the mid week noise. Does any one really think and argument that anyone who lives near an airfield should just deal with the disturbance? I don't see where the argument can possibly go? Should they all just move out? There aren't enough houses to go around on this island, so you can't really expect people not to live in the ones that are there. What if thats the only place they can afford that suits there jobs ect. ect. ect.

2. I didn't hear people complaining about the noise in 1940.

No, on the whole they probably didn't. Because there was a war on. In Europe. It's not 1940, that was a long time ago. The Army did a pretty good job routing the Nazis from France and Italy but I would still be pissed off if a bunch of squaddies made a load of noise leaving the pub down my street every Friday Night. We did not fight that battle, our forefathers did, it was a different time. This is a nonsense argument that has bugger all to do with today.

3. This just related to the Wittering thing.. I think the guy in question moved into the house in 1963, pre Harrier, and he inherited it when his Dad died. Where do you go with that? Sorry mate, your dad should've predicted us putting a load of fighters in here and using your house as short finals. His Dad bought a house next to a quiet airfield which then became very busy, with a very loud aeroplane. The house is 2 nm on the centerline. It must have been hell living there. I seems fair enough to me, and it was for loss of earnings not being able to use the house for films shoots ect, not just a load of cash for waking the dogs up. The Judge at the time also found in favor of the RAF by agreeing the flying was essential, and gave a gypsys warning about the noise from F-35.

So, all I'm saying is that what we do is not universally loved by all, and we are not all heroic enough to have enough of a moral perch to tell people just to deal with it because were defending the country. The noise we make ruins some peoples lives, it's a small island and we have to share it with the people who are legally obliged to pay for us. They have a right to expect us to make an effort to co-inhabit. On the whole I think we do, I know at a secret location west of Oxfod they are bending over backwards to accommodate to locals. I know it would be great to live in a world where everyone saluted and shed a tear as we flew over the top, but they don't. We piss some people off and it's not our island, and quite importantly they pay for what we do on their behalf.

I am now under my desk wearing my tin hat with a hip flask to see me through until the worst of the shelling is over.

[paull]

This looks like a carefully chosen number, do you own the airspace above your house up to 500 feet? Anyone know what he is basing this on?

Ok, found it.." (ANO CAP 393 Section 2 Rules of the Air) states that you must not fly within 500 feet......"

Not relevant for takeoff or landing though so it would seem he has not done his homework.

[ralphmalph]

Turningfinals,

The presence of a 500' balloon is not dangerous if it is known about. It's inconvenient. The MATZ should ideally be clear of significant obstacles in the approach and departure planes (just like the civvys)

Lasers, balloons......the price of democracy is high sometimes. The law needs to take its course, and that will take its time!

Very frustrating.

[lj101]

It's not the noise that worries me, it's the cavalier attitude. One has only to read the official accident reports to learn just what attitude some allegedly professional service pilots have toward safety procedures. If they overfly, be scared, very, very scared.

Mike -WSM

Would you clarify which official reports you are referring to?

[mike-wsm]

Ij101 - see pm

[P6 Driver]

Hypothetically, you could always write to the chap and let him know how you feel...

:E

[Wensleydale]

over his business and properties he rents out at Cefni, near Llangefni, north
Wales, which include a children’s nursery.


I would imagine that the properties that he bought for renting were considerably cheaper because of the proximity of the airfield. Now, if he gets the aircraft to move away, the value of the properties (and hence the rent he can charge) must surely increase. It seems to me that he is less interested in the welfare of the children in the nursery than in the value of his business and the increase in his profits. The complaint is probably in his business plan.

[NutLoose]

Wensly read the link posted above as to this chaps Council dealings, post 27..... All seems dodgy.


.

[Agaricus bisporus]

The man's an idiot paranoid knobhead, plain and simple. Mainly simple.

What an utter tosser.

[A and C]

Protesters are an unreasonable breed in the main, most of them think that they can move into an area and stop any activity that they don't like. Be it aviation, motor racing, and even church bell ringing so don't expect any reasoned argument or behavior from them,

Most of them become obsessed with the protest and it takes over their lives to a point were they can justify to themselfs all sorts of stupid and dangerouse actions with the intention of furthering the cause. The actions of the protesters at Branscombe in Devon are typical with balloons flown, a shotgun meet arranged under the approach on the annual charity fly in day, stringing a wire across the runway at night and countless acts of petty vandalism.

Accusations of dangerouse flying are the protesters stock in trade, one Branscombe protester accused a pilot of very low flying over the village, this resulted in headlines in the local paper and worried the locals who know nothing about flying. It was fortunate that the aircraft was fitted with a GPS flight recorder and when the manufactures downloaded the data the aircraft was found to be climbing through 2500 ft and on the council approved noise abatement track rather than the alleged 100 ft over the village.
The pilot struck back an action in the courts, the result was the protester had to pay for a full page retraction to be printed in the local paper.

Most of the public don't have much time for the protesteres and only sign up to get them off the doorstep, the best thing to do is to is to run a charm offensive and at the same time counter the uninformed rubbish with fact, I know of one protester who presented noise numbers to a planning enquiry at an airfield with a 750 m runway, the airfield managment had to Point out to the enquiry that numbers quoted were for a Boeing 757 and so were not relivent, however the councilors on the enquiry would have taken these numbers at face value had a challenge not been made.

The worst thing you can do is nothing because the media will only report what they are told , the best weapon that you will have will be the truth as it usually counters the rantings of protesters and makes them look obsessive and slightly unbalanced, this undermines their cause in the eyes of the general public who by and large understand the need for trainning and support the armed forces need to do so on grounds of national security.

[High_Expect]

Good job there isn't 3 weeks of night flying coming up

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafvalley/flyinginfo/nightflying.

that would really upset him - although obviously because it's the kids he's worried about this won't be an issue will it ;-)

[mike-wsm]

A and C

I understand the points you make, but must ask if you think it safe for fast jets to fly at 300ft for two miles across a built up area? Bearing in mind the possibility of failures and bird strikes.

And how would you measure that?
(a) on a straight course over a town
(b) during banked turns

Thanks,
Mike

Edit - 300ft MSD

[kharmael]

Aircraft don't plan to fly at 300' MSD (or 250' MSD if you're any good) across built up areas full stop and they endeavour to stay around 2000' within 15nm of their home base to avoid cheesing off the locals (or at least that's what they do at the secret Oxfordshire Airbase).

250' MSD is measured by flying at either a Radalt or QFE 250' across the airfield and getting the picture in your head then maintaining that enroute. It's a best effort and I like to think that everyone nowadays would rather err on the side of being too high than the opposite in today's complaint and NIMBY-ridden society.

[mike-wsm]

Aircraft don't plan to fly at 300' MSD (or 250' MSD if you're any good) across built up areas full stop

I have in front of me MAA/OP/04/Reg/Waiv/FlyDis12/02 which says differently.
Mike

[kharmael]

And since I don't have that document with me on my sofa, why don't you share what it says?

The breakdown seems to suggest something to do with waivers to the rules for flying displays?

[A and C]

This is all a question of personal choice and risk assessment , you have chosen to live in a comparitvly rural area and near to an airfields that has been active with military aviation for the best part of seventy years, you should understand that when you moved in and if you dont like the risk move house, the danger is that you are likely to find that the risks change.

I would take a guess that you perceive the greatest risk to you is a military aircraft crashing on top of you, I would dearly exchange that risk for the dangers I face in semi-rural Buckinghamshire from 4x4's driven by middie class women who are distracted by screaming kids being collected from minor public schools, these people seem to find most other road traffic invisible.

Yes ...... May be Im playing to the crowd a little but on the list of things that kill people on the ground in the UK military aircraft ( well in fact all aircraft) are not near the top of the list, I think you need to revisit the numbers and regain your life from this obsession, the only problem is that you might find that the kitchen in your home will become out of bounds.....................statistically that is a really dangerouse place!

[Ken Scott]

I have in front of me MAA/OP/04/Reg/Waiv/FlyDis12/02 which says differently.
Mike

Mike - you clearly have an agenda that you are not being altogether clear about. You are making insinuations about the standards of military flying so can I ask you to state more clearly exactly what your problem/ accusation is? The vast majority of military aircrew perform their job, which for most of us is training for operations in a hostile operational area, to a rigorous set of orders and instructions. There will always be as in any field of human activity those who might step ouside the rules either deliberately or inadvertantly but to make broad brush accusations against the many because of the few is unfair.

[A and C]

I will await Mikes reply with interest, there is nothing like the facts to get in the way of a good rant!

[mike-wsm]

Hi Guys,

Some sort of mistaken identity here, I live right in the middle of a seaside town with no operational airfield anywhere near.

My one concern is the display waiver which allows RAFAT to perform a rear entry 'Arrival Manoevre' over the crowd line. At a remote airfield and with a crowd who are there of their own volition this seems reasonable.

But in our case the display area is the sea, the crowd line is the beach, and the rear entry is two miles of bua at 300ft eyeball MSD with a liberal population of crows, gulls and the occasional heron.

My knowledge of aircraft safety and my research into recent display accidents do not combine to give a great degree of confidence.

Sorry I've been offline, had to recharge my tablet and walk into town to buy some veg.

Cheers,
mike-wsm

[Biggus]

I presume "wsm" refers to Weston-super-Mare?

[mike-wsm]

Shush! That's classified, I'm a Bristolian living here incognito...

[Shytehawk]

I thought that "rear entry arrival manoeuvres" were the perogative of the Navy boys.

[lj101]

My knowledge of aircraft safety and my research into recent display accidents do not combine to give a great degree of confidence.

Mike

Explain on an open forum your concerns ref your research.

[mike-wsm]

Sorry, 101, I'm not a media feeder. And as a non-mil it's time I bid you guys a fond farewell and headed back to the deep, dark, dank dungeons of JB.

Thanks for your kind hospitality,

All the best,
mike-wsm

[The Helpful Stacker]

But in our case the display area is the sea.....

I'm going to have to call BS on this.

As someone who spent a fair amount of time in Weston-super-Mud, having been posted to RAF Locking straight out of training, I can confirm that 'the sea' rarely makes an appearance in Weston, rather miles and miles of mud act as a poor substitute for all but the most fleeting of moments.

If the display area truly was the sea then the Red Arrows would have miles of space in which to reduce height without needing to pass over Weston at low level.

:E

[Waddo Plumber]

Mike, if you are so concerned about things falling from the sky, you should stay indoors in case you are hit by a meteorite! You probably do anyway, judging by the number of posts you write each day.

[Training Risky]

My one concern is the display waiver which allows RAFAT to perform a rear entry 'Arrival Manoevre' over the crowd line.

And how, pray tell, does this have any bearing on routine ops at Valley?

[NutLoose]

Don't go Mike..

[glad rag]

And how, pray tell, does this have any bearing on routine ops at Valley? Is it because day iz black?





:ugh: now I've gone and done it :ooh:

[brokenlink]

There was also a councillor from a ward close to Biggin who, during the battle, telephoned the station commander and complained that his AOR had recieved "more than its fair share of jettisoned Luftwaffe bombs, so would the Station Commander kindly make arrangements to intercept the Germans elsewhere"

Priceless.

Where we now live we are close to the former RAF Mepal and its nice to see the Spits from Duxford practicing their aeros over the top during the summer.

Low flying - more of it please.

[Shannon volmet]

Perhaps, the next time he rings ops to complain, the person who takes the call should ask, "Are you sure it's one of ours?":E

[500N]

"Perhaps, the next time he rings ops to complain, the person who takes the call should :E"

Tell him if he keeps ringing, we'll give the exact location to the Germans
and ask them t be a bit more accurate !:E:O



In regards to Jettisoning bombs, my grand parents told me a story once of a house in the country, miles from anyone else that was hit by a German bomb they thought was jettisoned - or maybe the Germans just decided to make some use of it instead of hitting a ploughed field. The owners were very pissed off.

[Q-RTF-X]

The man's an idiot paranoid knobhead, plain and simple. Mainly simple.

What an utter tosser. Unfortunately, he would seem to be more a cunning, calculating, back-stabbing, self-serving s**t whose survival skills are finely honed. He needs watching very carefully; it might be a mistake to underrate him..


PS. I could accept that among many things he's an ass***e


:E

[Running_In]

Why is everyone so horrible to any one non mil who has a genuine concern over the way we do things? As a group we really are our own worst enemy's. Do you guys ever stop to think who pays for it all?

[500N]

Running In

I wouldn't say it is just mil vs non mil, I look at it as a pathological hatred
of the NIMBY's.

And that is especially so of those that move somewhere - like near
an airport or an airfield - and then start complaining.

We have them here in Aus as well.

That's my HO.
.

[A2QFI]

We all pay for it, including those who do perform the actions that upset the Nimbys and the other snivelling gits. We are all tax payers!

[Running_In]

I mean the guy is wsm, not the douche on Anglesea. I think being concerned about 9 single engine fast jets overhead a BUA @ 300' is on the right side of the reasonable line but he got smoked. The mob attitude that labels anyone who has a concern a nimby is lazy and a bit sad. The fact we pay for it as well isn't relevant seeing as I'm talking about the right to scrutiny of outsiders.

[Exascot]

We all pay for it, including those who do perform the actions that upset the Nimbys and the other snivelling gits. We are all tax payers!

A2QFI, you beat me to it by minutes. But of course in the military you don't pay tax and get free food and accommodation :p

An aside about jettisoned bombs; Mrs Exascot's grandfather was a submariner in WWI :eek: and the poor chap got killed off the coast of Scotland in WWII on a frigate by a jettisoned bomb. Not sure if it was theirs or ours. Now that really was wrong place wrong time.

[A2QFI]

"wsm" what is that? Douche on Anglesea? (it is Anglesey actually). If you aren't military than you aren't anything to do with how WE do things. Enemy's? Enemy's what? Try Enemies GCSE English a bit of a struggle?

[RS15]

Maybe Mr Anglesey also hasn't considered collecting 10 tonnes of Westland's finest yellow hardware onto his house after collecting his weather balloon. And no, in standard N Wales weather might not see it. Last time I took a SK to a local Valley school, all the kids, teachers and parents loved it - and the FJs as well!! Try lifting a few hundred children out of the back of a SK - take rear steps next time😳

[DX Wombat]

GCSE English a bit of a struggle? A2QFI - now you know why the grading system needs to be reviewed. Those particular mistakes would have downgraded the writer to a simple A grade instead of A*. ;)
I have a serious complaint or three regarding low flying. Firstly none of your low flying routes is located anywhere near my house. :{ Secondly - I'm not in the aircraft doing the low flying and lastly, when I am at Shobdon do you think the Hercules pilots could be persuaded to use the QFE for the level at the bottom of the Dead Sea instead of the top? :E

[A2QFI]

I am unable to address your comments or complaints. I am no longer a serving member of the Armed Forces. There are well established channels for dealing with comments, questions and complaints about low flying and this forum isn't for any of them, except perhaps the comments.

Try this channel to the MOD

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Air Safety and Aviation | Low Flying | How do I complain about military low flying activity? (http://tinyurl.com/9bbb7lv)

[DX Wombat]

:D :D :D :D :D
I might just be tempted to use that url sometime. :E

[mike-wsm]

A2QF1

Thank you for kindly posting that link. Alas they disclaim responsibility for RAFAT transgressions. Not on active operational duty. Yet the CAA is not in a position to enforce civil air display restrictions on military aircraft.

This thread is titled "Don't fly over my house..." so it would appear open to anyone whose house is overflown, whether on Anglesey or elsewhere.

It is not just my life and my house at vanishingly small risk, it is our whole population and our whole town, and indeed all towns over which RAFAT display. So far they have had their accidents at sea and in fields. But if they go on as they are doing, then sooner or later one of them will have a bird strike, equipment malfunction, or medical emergency 300ft above the rooftops of some unfortunate town.

Dozens of innocent civilians killed. Houses and entire shopping centre demolished. Years of official enquiry. RAF personnel questioned. Cultural values questioned. Psychiatric remedies recommended.

[A2QFI]

If it is a vanishingly small risk I can't see your problem.

[Exascot]

Mike WSM: And as a non-mil it's time I bid you guys a fond farewell and headed back to the deep, dark, dank dungeons of JB.

He obviously found his way out :(

[Tourist]

mike

All life has risks.

The risks in the western world are far lower than those in much of the rest due in no small part to the risks taken on by the military over the years in defending you.

There is currently a war going on that has been going on for longer than WW1 or WW2, and carries a very high risk to those servicemen involved.

If the small risks that you must run due to the military practising above you for that war upset you then may I suggest you pour yourself a large glass of man the F@$k up.

[mike-wsm]

Tourist

Please read my posts more carefully. This was RAFAT. At 300ft MSD. In a BUA. As they do several times a week.

Nothing to do with combat training.

Exocet

Yea, well, if you summon dragons...

[Running_In]

A2QFI I'm posting from an iPhone so my spelling is crap. The first refuge of the ignorant criticising spelling rather that the argument really isn't it? So there.

Mike isn't talking about training, he's talking about the Reds over a city centre.

Why is it that we (as a group) can't accept people from the outside questioning us? It's a dangerous position to be in. In my experience were not as good as everyone here makes out...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Mike,

A catastrophic bird strike doesn't tend to force the aircraft to drop directly out of the sky. If a 400kt Hawk took a goose to the engine directly over a built up area, it would have an enormous amount of time to trade speed for height and select somewhere to leave the aircraft.

The Hawk's never had a double hydraulics failure, and I can't recall a single instance of an RAF pilot suddenly passing out in mid flight for no reason. They've had their accidents in fields and over the sea because that's where the risk of bird strikes are, and that's where well-trained professional aircrew place their stricken aircraft after an emergency, rather than just abandoning it into a built up area.

What, specifically, do you think might happen to a RAFAT aircraft that makes this an unacceptable risk?

[Tourist]

Mike.

I'm not normally (ever) one to defend the red arrows. Personally I find their displays an uninspiring waste of their exceptional skill due to lack of imagination in the choreography, but, and it is a big but, one thing they are is safe.

Do you have any idea what they would have had to go through to get a display clearance that allows them to cross the crowd line? The safety case must have been spectacular.
It is not just a case of "we're the reds we can do what we want"

You are much more likely to be hit by a meteorite/lightening than be landed on by the reds.

[endplay]

One (non troll) question. My understanding is that the RAF does not conduct low level ops and that we (they as I'm ex) haven't done so since GW1, so why do we practise it? If I'm wrong I stand to be corrected and, if not, stand to be educated. Please direct gratuitus abuse to file B1n. I will.

[DX Wombat]

I'm off to Wales in the not too distant future and I wondered if one of you ladies and gentlemen would be kind enough to point me in the right direction for the area of the Mach loop where I'm told the aircraft are often below the level of the observers?

[Tourist]

In a permissive air defense environment, ie one where the enemy has no capability to hit you at height like Afghan and Iraq etc then high is safe.

If the enemy has credible air defense then very very low may be safe.

We have to be ready and capable of going low if necessary.

[CoffmanStarter]

DXW ...

See here ...

Mach Loop (http://www.lowflymedia.com/info/mach_loop/mach_loop.shtml)

And here ...

Mach Loop (http://machloop.co.uk/)

Coff.

[The Helpful Stacker]

One (non troll) question. My understanding is that the RAF does not conduct low level ops and that we (they as I'm ex) haven't done so since GW1, so why do we practise it? If I'm wrong I stand to be corrected and, if not, stand to be educated. Please direct gratuitus abuse to file B1n. I will.

Low level ops are conducted fairly regularly in Afghanistan in the form of 'show of force' fly-bys.

But as an aside, even if current ops didn't require occasional low level flying does that mean the skill should be allowed to fade?:confused:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Oh and to add,

Dozens of innocent civilians killed. Houses and entire shopping centre demolished. Years of official enquiry. RAF personnel questioned. Cultural values questioned. Psychiatric remedies recommended.

http://othersideofscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/think_of_the_children.jpg

[DX Wombat]

Thank you very much indeed CoffmanStarter. :ok:

[mike-wsm]

Bwlch pass 24th June 2010 (HD - 1080p) Mach Loop - YouTube

[fade to grey]

well, I hear that idiot in Wales recieved two turds in the post.

Question is, who sent the other one ?

[500N]

Fade to gray

LOL, :ok:

Thank you, a good chuckle :O

[mike-wsm]

My thanks to 5 Forward 6 Back for a well reasoned reply to my concerns.

[DX Wombat]

Thanks for that clip Mike. :D :D :D

[A2QFI]

I use an iphone too but I find it is my fingers that are cr*p not my spelling LOL

[Exascot]

Mike:

Exocet

Yea, well, if you summon dragons...

Who is Exocet?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Exocet.jpg

[Running_In]

A2... I pity you

[A2QFI]

For having stubby fingers? I can live with that! Any further news on the Anglesea(sic) douche BTW?

[sisemen]

Running In - you got bounced and embarrassed in the process. Don't make matters worse by making a flame war.

[Training Risky]

My understanding is that the RAF does not conduct low level ops and that we (they as I'm ex) haven't done so since GW1, so why do we practise it?

Anyone been reading the news lately? The days when the prerequisite for a British Campaign was that the enemy is on no account to carry guns may soon be over!

[Running_In]

What do you mean by bounced?

I do pity A2QFI. It really says something when you're more concerned about spelling over the points someone is making. He / She comes across as a pompous person.

I stand by what I said, we should be constructive when people like mike-wsm have concerns. Bullying them Ito submission isn't winning. I saw RAFAT over Newcastle on TV at the weekend I'm sure that they have a safety plan but the average guy in the street doesn't. It took a long time before someone took the time to explain to mike-wsm why he didn't have to be so concerned.

[Jumping_Jack]

Pompous? Pot/kettle.......:=

[Running_In]

Fair enough if you think Im pompous but I posted out of frustration. I'm a service pilot and when I read mike-wsm's post I thought it was pretty reasonable and all it need was a reasonable 'this is why it's safe' reply but instead there was an aggressive backlash.

So what I'm wondering is why are pilots so sensitive to outsiders?

[lj101]

It's not the noise that worries me, it's the cavalier attitude. One has only to read the official accident reports to learn just what attitude some allegedly professional service pilots have toward safety procedures. If they overfly, be scared, very, very scared.


RI

Mike is probably a lovely chap, but when he wants to play on the military forum, he should start off by playing nicely.

[TurbineTooHot]

I've been reading this thread with a little interest, more so in the treatment of "outsiders" than the main topic, which seems to be some prat making a prat of himself again.

I have to agree with LJ on this one, if you're going to post in a military forum, and don't want to be treated like a troll or a pompous arse don't open with a statement as above, insinuating that mil pilots are all cowboys who deliberately endanger the folks we are sworn to protect for self gratification or negligence....... Mike WSM, please take note of this.....

[orgASMic]

And don't expect a straight answer to a troll-like post when you could have:

Googled 'Red Arrows public relations'
got this link RAF Red Arrows - Contact us (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/contactus.cfm)
asked the team how they are regulated
been reassured by the professionals
and maybe got an invitation to have a visit.

[Exascot]

I wish that the Greek Fighter Guys here would roll over the top ridge of our island (3,000 ft) instead of 'bunting' it would be far more exciting for us when we are up there. As we know I can't photograph them because I understand that the prison food here is cr@p :yuk:

They could of course be Turks not Greek :eek:

[A2QFI]

I am not pompous, I just think that spelling and grammar add something to a post, but then I took my exams in the late 50s when such things mattered and were taken into account before granting a "Pass". Please enlighten me/us about this Anglesea douche - I am still waiting and interested.

[newt]

Please move all low flying to Scotland!!:ok:

[jindabyne]

Please move Scotland

[NutLoose]

I use an iphone too but I find it is my fingers that are cr*p not my spelling LOL


Ahh You suffer from PTS

Pigs Tits Syndrome..... 21%. of the UK population appears to have fingers shaped this way.

[Red Line Entry]

I think the key bit here is "for no reason". Ultimately, whatever the cause, there will always be a reason.

[johnfairr]

Wasn't there an F-4 out of Leuchars where the pilot suffered a heart attack, lost conciousness and the nav had to eject after trying everything he could to revive him. Mainly bashing him on the shoulder with a circuit-breaker popper, or some such.

This was over the North Sea, late 80s, early 90s?

[lj101]

John

Maybe the one detailed on 09 Jan 89

F-4_Phantom_RAF (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/aircraft_by_type/f-4_phantom_raf.htm)

[Tankertrashnav]

A heartening report in my local rag, the West Briton, last week. Can't locate the online version for a link, so I'll summarise.

A local horserider complained to St Keverne Parish Council (down The Lizard) that her horse had been spooked by a Merlin in the neighbourhood of Old Dean Quarry, which RNAS Culdrose uses as an approved site to practise confined area landings. Councillor Russell Hosken told the council "I feel this is a small inconvenience when we realise what the outcome of that training is", and Councillor Bill Frisken added "I wouldnt want to go too far on this one"

Nice to know that some in authority, admittedly at the lowest tier of government, realise that big noisy helicopters are there for a purpose, and not just to frighten the horses :ok:

[tailchase]

And will this incident and the comments of the Councillor be enough to encourage horse riders to give the area a wider birth - of course it won't.

[Halton Brat]

New thread suggestion: 'Don't fly over my horse'.......

HB

[mike-wsm]

This is for the gentleman who said uncommanded in-flight ejection is not possible:

ASN Aircraft accident 22-OCT-1987 BAe Harrier II GR.5 ZD325 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=55537)

[dash2]

Mike,

Without wishing to be difficult, that link mentions nothing of 'uncommanded' ejection but hints that a chap pulled the wrong handle whilst under the effects of hypoxia (easy enough to do but unlikely if taking part in a low level aerobatic display).

Sorry if I've misconstrued your point.

Regards,

Dash 2

[mike-wsm]

Everyone here keeps telling me it's perfectly alright for RAFAT to go on flying for two miles at 300ft eyeball MSD over built-up areas, except kharmael who tells me it is something that should never be done.

And people challenge me to ask me to say what could possibly go wrong.

I say it simply is wrong. You flyboys should do your dangerous flying in dangerous flying areas, where there is minimal risk to the innocent civilians who have to pay your tax-free wages and accommodation and food and whatever else we have to pay for.

We have to find jobs, earn our money, pay, tax and ni, save up to buy our homes, pay all our own bills, do our own shopping and pay for everything ourselves. You get it all laid on so you don't undertand how by putting putting our town at risk you upset us and could destroy our whole lives.

Aircraft crash. Civil aircraft are designed to crash as little as possible. Military aircraft are designed with much less regard for vehicle safety, with reliance for crew survival placed in having ejector seats.

Military aircraft should not be flying fast and low over towns. I cannot point at the next unknown flaw that will cause a RAFAT crash when performing at civil publicity display but nobody can say with certainty that it is not going to happen.

Please, please, please, Reds, obey European Law, don't abuse that waiver. Fly safely out over the sea where you can eject if/when anything goes wrong.

[lj101]

Mike WSM

Have you been up all night drinking?

[tonker]

Please bomb my house as often as possible(NE45 5BP) and stop being spoil sports by going over the Hexham valley with your thrust reduced. If i'm going to be woken up, i want it to be worth it:bored:

[mike-wsm]

...no

But I do know a bit about aircraft safety, have done fmea work, have flown as a humble cadet in designated low flying areas, have designed bits of safety-critical systems, often watch and marvel at aerobatic displays only to read with sadness that the pilots died subsequently whilst performing an equally safe aerobatic display...

[Tourist]

mike.

Where to begin.

"innocent civilians who have to pay your tax-free wages and accommodation and food and whatever else we have to pay for."

1. Our wages are not and have never been tax free. In fact we are the one part of British life that cannot get tax free even when we are posted overseas to warzones for more than 6 months of the year.

"We have to find jobs, earn our money, pay, tax and ni, save up to buy our homes, pay all our own bills, do our own shopping and pay for everything ourselves. You get it all laid on so you don't undertand how by putting putting our town at risk you upset us and could destroy our whole lives."

2. We have to go through a recruitment proccess far more painful than anything you have ever had to go through to get our job. We earn our money more than you will ever know civvy tw@t. We pay NI and tax. We do our shopping, we pay our bills, we own our own houses, and if we chose to live in a mess, be aware that of the large number of ex military accomodation that have been turned into prison, all have had to be upgraded to meet minimum standards for convicts.


Quite frankly I despise you nimby pumpers. If you don't want a military then vote tree hugger or whatever. If enough people agree with you then we will be gone.
If you do think we should have a military then man the f@ck up and shoulder that tiny tiny bit of extra risk that military aircraft cause you. The members of the military shoulder an enormous amount more to protect your right to whinge like a girl.

Screw you.

[Stuff]

mike-wsm has manged it, his epic last post has made him a parody of himself. Nurse! Fetch the pills.

I'm off to spend my tax-free wages at the garden centre so I can make my free house look prettier. I'll get the butler to lay out a nice spread for when I get back.

[monkeytennis]

Mike said:

Everyone here keeps telling me it's perfectly alright for RAFAT to go on flying for two miles at 300ft eyeball MSD over built-up areas, except kharmael who tells me it is something that should never be done.

And people challenge me to ask me to say what could possibly go wrong.

I say it simply is wrong. You flyboys should do your dangerous flying in dangerous flying areas, where there is minimal risk to the innocent civilians who have to pay your tax-free wages and accommodation and food and whatever else we have to pay for.

We have to find jobs, earn our money, pay, tax and ni, save up to buy our homes, pay all our own bills, do our own shopping and pay for everything ourselves. You get it all laid on so you don't undertand how by putting putting our town at risk you upset us and could destroy our whole lives.

Aircraft crash. Civil aircraft are designed to crash as little as possible. Military aircraft are designed with much less regard for vehicle safety, with reliance for crew survival placed in having ejector seats.

Military aircraft should not be flying fast and low over towns. I cannot point at the next unknown flaw that will cause a RAFAT crash when performing at civil publicity display but nobody can say with certainty that it is not going to happen.

Please, please, please, Reds, obey European Law, don't abuse that waiver. Fly safely out over the sea where you can eject if/when anything goes wrong.

Wow. :}

[mike-wsm]

Hi Guys, sorry I got the income tax situation wrong, picked it up on this forum quite recently from someone who seemed to know. Please accept my apologies. Thanks!

But of course in the military you don't pay tax and get free food and accommodation

Tourist - I'm all in favour of having military forces and indeed have participated as a volunteer on occasion. What I object to is one specific item - rafat's defiance of European Law and abuse, in my considered opinion, of that one particular waiver. I don't object to your language, indeed would love to retaliate in kind, but please remember this is a public forum where you are on display as much as you would be when on parade, or perhaps when sunning yourself by the rooftop pool of a French chateau. :cool:

[Exascot]

Sorry guys probably my fault I quote myself post 71:

But of course in the military you don't pay tax and get free food and accommodation :p

For goodness sake Mike are you naive or just not on this planet?

BTW, have you got a chip on your shoulder? :

....have flown as a humble cadet

Did you by any chance apply to join the Royal Air Force as a pilot and get rejected?

[Tourist]

mike

Why don't you crack on bring the Reds defiance of European law to the attention of the papers?

Go on, I'm sure they will be very interested.

[mike-wsm]

Hi Exocet - Nope, went off to Smiths, the maker whose name was obscured by blood. Sorry, thought that was the gloating smiley, now let's try it, ah, "colon p", dunno what the p stands for. I've been on this planet quite a while but I'll never understand these humans.

[mike-wsm]

Tourist - good suggestion but they would only be interested after a major incident, which is what we should try to avoid.

[Shytehawk]

I don't think that there would be a cat in hell's chance of Mike-WSM getting through the selection process.

[mike-wsm]

Hawk - eyesight, dear boy, eyesight -2.50 diopters in my left eye

[course_profile]

Mike. Wow.

[lj101]

Mike

Would you refer to the paragraph about European flying regulations that you say the Reds are defying?


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP403.PDF

I'm genuinely intrigued - :ok:

[Running_In]

Mike-wsm, I came on here and defended you a few pages ago because I thought you were being reasonable and got some shoddy treatment. I was wrong, that post you put up earlier was the most bitter & childish piece of drivel I've seen in a long time. I'm not going to ask what on earth taxes and job hunting have to do with low flying because we both know the answer - nothing. It was just you spouting bile.

So to any one who I offended when I tried to defend him - sorry, it looks like I was wrong and I was wasting my time.

[airborne_artist]

http://www.damndirtyrino.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/feed_trolls.gif

[ShyTorque]

I think "mike-wsm" has ensured that nothing he writes here in future will ever be taken seriously again.

That totally uninformed and vitriolic post above must qualify for number one position in the NIMBY Bigotry Awards of 2012. :D

[Exascot]

.....eyesight, dear boy, eyesight -2.50 diopters in my left eye

I rest my case - probably caused by an attitude problem at birth, there is a God :ok:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Mike.bmp

[mike-wsm]

airborne_artist - thanks ever so much for the excellent likeness and for the excellent advice - however I am not a troll, I am a resident concerned for the safety of our town, and other towns, and also concerned for rafat's hitherto excellent reputation.

ShyTorque (avoid imitations) - I'm really confused, you are phonetically identical to Shytehawk. I sent him a pm to ask if you are he, or vice versa or not. Apologies for the misunderstanding about pay, Exascot says he didn't expect his remark to be taken seriously. But I stand my ground on the other points.

Ij101 - better than that, I have a copy of the waiver signed by Rear Admiral Simon Charlier FRAeS, kindly provided by MoD under Freedom of Information.

[ShyTorque]

I have absolutely no connection with any phonetically similar posters. I stand by what I wrote.

[lj101]

Mike

So they had permission? What's your point?

[mike-wsm]

Exocet - bit difficult for a mere civilian to take on the massed forces single-handed. :ugh:


sadist - a person who takes great pleasure in being kind to a masochist

[mike-wsm]

Ij101 - permission based on their representations which are in turn based on airshow regulations and would imply rear entry over the line formed by a consenting crowd rather than low-level overflight of an entire town.

[mike-wsm]

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q594/mike-wsm/pprune/feed_trolls_zpse965eb18.gif

Luvvit! Thanks Airborne!

[Tourist]

You know what, he's right!

I just watched this thing on the telly where they flew all over london!

Evil dangerous hooray henrys!

[Exascot]

Exocet sic- bit difficult for a mere civilian to take on the massed forces single-handed.

Suggest you take your argument elsewhere then old boy.

[mike-wsm]

Exascot - yes, just giving you guys a chance before making a good case to send to "the respective event Flying Display Director" if I can find out who (s)he is, probably one of the civilian family who own the Grand Pier. After that it is onward and upward, to the Military Aviation Authority. But I shan't neglect you, please feel free to go on trolling...

[mike-wsm]

Ij101 - Thanks for CAP403, just found it in my download folder. This is the CAA document applicable to civil aircraft. For military aircraft appearing at civil displays you need to consult RA 2335 - Flying Displays and Special Events, as modified by any appropriate waivers. My copy came from MoD under foi. It is my understanding that RA 2335 complies with European Law and that RAFAT have negotiated waivers with some but not all European countries to permit rear entry.

[lj101]

Pleasure - easily found with a google search:


As is this

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0C569649-C2B6-48B1-884D-E03CA3CE1FAD/0/RA2335InitialIssue.pdf

The book you wrote with ref to Military Research Aircraft, who published it?

[Tiger_mate]

I find this thread a little bizarre as between the CAA - MAA - EAC - BADA the Rules and to a small degree, self regulation of air show participants makes anything vaquely dangerous virtually impossible. Ramstein and Haddon-Cave between them have sorted the fun flying out. Gone are the days of post show departures being the best part of the show for exmple, and Crowd rear arrivals require a specific and written document of authorisation and few air show participants have it. RAFAT do, as do BBMF and I believe the Blades do but very few others.

The comments concerning perception od what servicemen get cost free is many years out of date and suggests a crevace on a shoulder never mind a chip.

[mike-wsm]

Ij101
Thanks for your kind interest
ISBN 0-85429-675-1
VTOL Military Research Aircraft
M J Rogers 1989
Foulis Aviation
Haynes Publishing Group

Tigermate
As explained I took a post by the venerable and highly respected Mr Exascot as the literal truth instead of a wry in-joke. I apologised before and I apologise again now.

[Stuff]

Amazon.co.uk
14 used from £0.01

I see his book is priced as highly as his insightful forum bilge.

Seriously, do you not know when you have become a laughing stock?

[Tankertrashnav]

I think I ought to divert some of the attention in the laughing-stock stakes.

Took me half this thread to work out what rafat meant :O

(In my defence, maybe RAFAT might have been clearer)

[mike-wsm]

Stuff - Wow, 34 pounds new and average around twenty quid second-hand! Price new was £17.95 Thanks for drawing my attention to that.

Tanker - Sorry, was trying not to be a media magnet.

[Courtney Mil]

Is this thread for real? Please tell me that you're all in a conspiracy to astonish us all. Mike, I have never seen such ill-informed ranting (even here on PPRuNe!). Just think, every light aircraft that overflies your town at medium level, every airliner that overflies your town at high level and every rafat a/c that passes by has a chance of falling on your house - because that's what aircraft keep doing.

Although, I'm sure you're right, civilian aircraft are designed to crash much less often than military ones. I'm sure another FOI request will reveal to you the design requirements for the Hawk which was: must crash slightly more often than airliners.

I'm going back to my parallel universe now. Bye.

[MaximumPete]

And I only thought most aircraft crashed once!

This thead had has been a real revelation.

Keep it going chaps!!

MP;)

[Alber Ratman]

Noisy military aeroplanes flying over my house?? I don't mind it, when they are transiting from were they need to go to / come from and I have owned houses in the flight path of Stations (my present house is on an airport approach, does it bother me ? No!). I do mind it when the idiot yanks from Suffolk decide that a bounce / 1 vis 1 is going to be planned over my house (2 miles from a city that is also getting the full effects) with burners at after 10 pm at night.. absolutely no justification to do it then at that time.. I was going to complain, but others did before me.. Not happened since..

[mike-wsm]

Courtney,

We have airliners flying over at reasonable altitude many times a day, we have helicopters, including Elfan's lovely Brantley, and we have three guys who buzz over suspended from parafoils. No problems with any of those.

We used to have Helidays with civil and military helicopters flying in off the sea to land on the sea-front, and a coincidental simultaneous departure on Sunday afternoon, glorious sight and sound, no probs there.

What I object to is the use of a waiver intended I think for conventional airfield displays being used as an excuse to fly FJs at 300ft eyeball MSD for two miles over a built up area.

Could you edit your post to say rafat, please? Thanks! Avoids attracting the news media when they google.

[mike-wsm]

Ratman, sorry to hear you are worried by noise. My concern is purely the risk of leaving one big smoking crater in the center of a town, our town, or any town. The declared aim of rafat is good publicity. Demolishing a town center carries a risk of adverse publicity.

[TurbineTooHot]

Mike,

Before I really flash I'd like to know if the objection to a straight and level (visually judged 300ft MSD as you say) entry to display is that it is somehow stunningly dangerous and will inevitably cause wanton death and destruction as it will be over a built up area?

And also, as the man with all of the facts, are in a better position to make the call that it is so stunningly dangerous than the operating authorities, and hence are trying to get it turned off, because of all of the wanton death and destruction that will happen when 9 aircraft fly at 300ft together in formation.

[mike-wsm]

Er, TTH, the answer alas lies here: fewer than 9. Sorry!

[TurbineTooHot]

7 this season then.

So answer my question and substitute 7 for 9........

[sisemen]

You flyboys should do your dangerous flying in dangerous flying areas, where there is minimal risk to the innocent civilians who have to pay your tax-free wages and accommodation and food and whatever else we have to pay for.

We have to find jobs, earn our money, pay, tax and ni, save up to buy our homes, pay all our own bills, do our own shopping and pay for everything ourselves. You get it all laid on so you don't undertand how by putting putting our town at risk you upset us and could destroy our whole lives.


That has bigoted, dumb, bandwidth waster, ignorant, wind-up merchant, and troll written right over it. He's not even fit for Jet Blast.

Let him write letters to whoever he wants to - they'll inevitably end up in File 13. He's entitled to his opinion - even though it is crass and wrong, wrong, wrong. To think I spent 30 years of my life defending tossers like him.

Suggest he goes on everyone's ignore list.

Running In No probs - at least you saw the light :E

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Mike,

I'll ask the same thing I asked before; what can happen to a jet to make it crash from 300-400kts in a specific 2 mile stretch?

With a bird strike, you'll have plenty of time and space to climb and glide clear. I can't think of a single possible massive mechanical failure that could do it (wings don't just fall off!). It's not very likely that a pilot, with the general level of medical and physical fitness exhibited by the reds and the numerous medical checks, will spuriously have a heart attack.

The chances of something happening that leaves a Hawk-shaped hole in your local shopping centre are effectively the same of a satellite dropping out of the sky and doing the same; absolutely infinitesimal.

By all means point out dangerous breaches of the rules, but this simply isn't dangerous within the sensible definitions of risk.

[mike-wsm]

Good Evening Mr Squadron Leader (retired) Siseman

Many thanks for your kind comments. I must apologise for two typos and one factual inaccuracy in the quote you cited. I regret I took a post by the much revered Mr Exascot, owner of vast estates in Greece and Botswana, as being the truth rather than understanding it as a sardonic/ironic jest.

I must express my full and unswerving support for all those currently and formerly engaged on active service and on training missions over authorised areas. I have flown as a passenger on low-level military flights. Looking up at ships and trees is rather interesting, looking up at power lines even more so.

The sole area of dissent is where military aircraft are engaged in seeking publicity at civil air displays and where they perform manoeuvres which are not normally permitted by use of a waiver which seems inapplicable in certain situations and which is so worded as to acknowledge those exceptions.

I regret I am not gifted with any great degree of precognisance and cannot predict the cause of any possible future disaster. But observance of normal procedures would seem more reasonable than stretching a waiver further than might be deemed reasonable.

I note that you have read past two PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL warnings before arriving here. Another one follows.

Wishing you a very peaceful and happy retirement,
Mike the Oldie



http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q594/mike-wsm/pprune/feed_trolls_zpse965eb18.gif

[MFC_Fly]

mike-wsm,

A genuine question for you, as I am trying to get my head around your real problem..

Is your concern purely for the safety of life to those on the ground because of the rear entry 'Arrival Manoevre' of the Red Arrows over your town at 300' for an air display?

[lj101]

Mike

You seem to have a fear about aircraft crashing which most consider irrational but its your fear and with that valid. If you feel what has happened is wrong then I am sure your concerns will be looked at by the right authorities and changes will be made

All the best Mike, take it easy out there.

[Alber Ratman]

Americans practicing dogfighting over a major conhabitation at night has me more worried that the Sparrows lining up for a display run in at 300 ft over a town. Hey they do it over London all the time!:E

[Paul-B]

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint of beer.
The publican 'e ups an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me.
They sent me to the gallery or 'round the music-'alls.
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! They'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopships' on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, making mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy 'ow's your soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O, it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of his country," when the guns begins to shoot;
Yes, it's Tommy this an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

[Training Risky]

My concern is purely the risk of leaving one big smoking crater in the center of a town

Are we talking about the town where you live Mike? Sounds like a good idea to me.

Do you drive a car? Eat canned food? Breathe the air? Why pray tell are you not whining on the phone to the dept for transport, HSE and Environment Agency instead of polluting this forum?

[Shack37]

Kipling had it right...


Didn't even know he was a pilot.


My concern is purely the risk of leaving one big smoking crater in the center of a town

Are we talking about the town where you live Mike? Sounds like a good idea to me.


And you mate need to take a look in the mirror.

[Halton Brat]

End it referee!

HB

[WorkingHard]

This left a big hole about 2 miles from ejection point

Date: 28-JUN-1993
Time:
Type:
BAe Harrier II GR.7
Operator: 3 Squadron, RAF
Registration: ZD430
C/n / msn: P42
Fatalities: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1
Other fatalities: 0
Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
Location: Hecklington, 7 miles from Sleaford, Lincolnshire - United Kingdom
Phase: En route
Nature: Military
Departure airport: RAF Leeming
Destination airport: RAF Coningsby (QCY/EGXC)
Narrative:
Crashed onto farmland between Hecklington and Burton Pedwardine, seven miles from Sleaford, Lincolnshire after the pilot had ejected at about 3000 feet and 220 knots, following an unsuccessful attempt to make an emergency landing at RAF Coningsby.

(ZD430 was en route from RAF Leeming back to RAF Gutersloh, Germany)

Fuel from a massive leak on the starboard wing leading edge, probably caused by a bird strike, was ignited by the engine

[Inshala]

Good thing the Reds don't fly Harriers then

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Plus, he had a birdstrike and then positioned for Coningsby; how long elapsed between impact and crash? His jet may have landed 2 miles from his ejection point, but that's not what we're talking about here.

That's not the same as a bird strike taking out the engine in a 400kt cruise and giving you time to climb and look for a safe site to abandon.

[Courtney Mil]

Hey, let's face it. An operation of this size, there are bound to be a few losses. The Vulcan keeps flying over my house. And loads of private planes, hundreds of helos when Silverstone is active. And airliners. Bits drop off them all the time.

But I'm not whinging about it. I'm doing the sensible thing and moving to France to live beside a nice safe nuclear power plant.

[bob shayler]

Glad this one did, a Hawker Sea Hawk. They used to fly over regularly in the late 50's as my house was on the flight path to H.M.S. Daedalus about a mile from touch down. This one flew over in August 2010,
Regards,
Bob




http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w421/bobshayler/hawker10_zps88264a13.jpg?t=1348599188

[bob shayler]

Under carriage down,
Regards,
Bob




http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w421/bobshayler/HawkerSeaHawk_zps537081d5.jpg

[Shack37]

But I'm not whinging about it. I'm doing the sensible thing and moving to France
to live beside a nice safe nuclear power plant.

CM
:D:D:)

An excellent move mon ami.

[mike-wsm]

May I take this opportunity to thank all those kind gentlemen who have told me with great conviction that absolutely nothing can go wrong with RAFAT's Hawks and that the pilots are so fighting fit that they can never suffer any medical condition.

[Justanopinion]

Hello Mike

“We are deeply disappointed at not being able to take part in the Malta International Airshow; however, safety is always paramount,” the Red Arrows said on their website

Safety is always paramount being the critical bit of the statement. They will not be flying over your house if the jets are not 100% serviceable.

I think someone as fit as Mo Farrah would have issues breathing without oxygen........

[mike-wsm]

Your logic defies comprehension. How would they know?

[lj101]

May I take this opportunity to thank all those kind gentlemen who have told me with great conviction that absolutely nothing can go wrong with RAFAT's Hawks and that the pilots are so fighting fit that they can never suffer any medical condition.

Would you indicate the particular posts that said the above.

Do you ever wonder why you were banned from your Mensa forum?

[BEagle]

Mensa? MENSA??!! AAARGGGHH - flashback to my first ever Latin lesson (long before you were born, lj101!) and the nonsense of declining the word 'mensa'......mensa, mensam, mensae, mensae, mensa...:(

No wonder the Romans died out. 3 different words for 'table' and 4 for 'tables' including 'mensae', which can mean either 'of a table', 'to or from a table', 'tables', or 'O tables!'.....:mad:

Nice piccy of the Seahawk, Bob - is RNHF's WV908 currently airworthy?

Oh well, I will now hand you back to mike and his seaside donkeys.....:uhoh:

[Tourist]

MENSA ?

Please tell me mike isn't a Mensan?!

I thought it was for clever people?

[mike-wsm]

Ij101 - Sorry, can't discuss the mensa forums, they have a rule about that. But if you consider the normal distribution (bell-shaped curve) and truncate it on the 98th percentile, the remainder is a very strange shape, with most of the population at the lowest extreme. Those of us who get banned seem to reside in the tiny minority at the higher end.

All completely meaningless in real life. Except electronics, where IQ is actually useful.

[Tourist]

Ah, that must be why you were banned.

Because you're "special":hmm:

[mike-wsm]

Tourist - Sorry, can't comment on the mensa forums, they have a rule about that.

[lj101]

Mike


Reference your Mensa thingy.......


PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network (http://www.pprune.org) › Flight Deck Forums › Rumours & News
20 posts - 12 authors - 19 Aug
If it ain't Pan-Am, I ain't flyin'. "But mike-wsm, Pan-Am don't fly any more" "Exactly!" PS - I've just been banned from the British Mensa forums so ...

You brought it up first.......

May I take this opportunity to thank all those kind gentlemen who have told me with great conviction that absolutely nothing can go wrong with RAFAT's Hawks and that the pilots are so fighting fit that they can never suffer any medical condition.

As previously requested, would you indicate the particular posts that said the above.


LJ101

[Courtney Mil]

OK, while I'm in the mood.

I made the point earlier, in another thread, that everyone is starting to attach far too much importance to flight safety. Flight safety is both expensive and a complete embuggerance in that it stops aviators from being allowed to do all sorts of things. I admit there's an up-side to it as it seems likely (or possible) that it results in fewer accidents - although, how would you proove that? No one ever said to me, "Courtney, you made it back safely today because of your excellent use of flight safety." (There's an opening for some banter)

So, it's like this. There are risks associated with aviation and those apply whether you participate in the activity or happen to live where others do. So the rafat guys sometimes take a few liberties with a waiver. Just enjoy the free flypast over your town. If the worst is going to happen, it'll happen. With an operation of this size there are bound to be a few losses.

As for the Hawks being 100% serviceable, don't beleive them, Mike. I can't remember when I last flew a jet that was 100% OK. Mostly good enough to do the job on the day - sometimes not even that good. Especially with an aircraft as old as the Hawk.

This type of risk aversion causes acne, constipation and premature hair loss.

[mike-wsm]

Ij101 - Thankyou for your kind and comprehensive research into my past posts.

Yes, I really loved flying Pan-Am, my very first long-haul flight was on Clipper Kit Carson, saw the name as I boarded on emigration to the US of A, since changed, took me ages to locate that plane. 747SP, as all long-haul flights were in those far-off days. November 1978.

Yes, I may have been a bit miffed that day, being banned for no reason, Kafka is often cited. I've emailed several times but still no information is forthcoming. I do tend to be a bit critical of anyone, in whatever organisation, hammering the expenses so perhaps that may have contributed.

Your other request seems, how can I say it, a little 'pushy' but if you would like to pm with proof that you are a mod I shall of course be happy to comply to the best of my ability.

[mike-wsm]

Courtney Mil Yes, thank you, a fair assessment. So why not stick to European Law and take those risks out over the sea? We civilians don't have 'get me outa here' seats.

[Courtney Mil]

Because no one can see them 'out over the sea.' That's the whole point of the Reds, to be seen. Preferably up close and personal.

Was the airfield already there when you moved to your town?

[mike-wsm]

Courtney Mil - Some misunderstanding here - there is no airfield involved - it is a seaside display, over the sea, the crowd line is the seafront - wsm is Weston super Mare - Latin scholars will tell you 'mare' means sea - but the name was assumed quite recently, no Romans involved.

[Tourist]

mike

"I've emailed several times but still no information is forthcoming"


You have come on here and questioned the Reds safety, and despite many careful explanations from everyone here you still seem unable to comprehend what you are being told.


Have you considered the possibility that after some similar event on the clever peoples forum that they have decided to revoke your ticket.

"Courtney Mil Yes, thank you, a fair assessment."

Have you considered the possibility that, no, it is not?

Your sarcasm filter has holes that would let an autistic elephant gampole through without hinderance.

First the tax free miltary with free housing, now this.

You have no first-hand knowledge or experience, and an inability to parse sensible facts from the internet.

Hardly a recipe for educated decision or opinion making mike, is it?

[Courtney Mil]

Now that is good answer.

[mike-wsm]

Tourist - Thank you for your kind comments. I do take time to look at people's profiles, can't comment in detail on open parts of the forum, but I tend to put greater weight on the comments made by those who show relevant experience.

I have apologised several times for believing Mr Exascot's post about tax-free status, his use of irony was so immaculate that it passed me by. Nice one, Exocet!

I do believe Mr Courtney Mil's comments because they are reasonable and because they are in accord with what I have seen from within the industry. Oh, how many tales could I tell, were I free so to do.

Several books have been written on Murphy's Laws, which apply very much in the design of those machines best described as 'a collection of engineering compromises flying in close formation'. Highly recommended.

[Courtney Mil]

Er, Mike. No, fella. I've been in a PPRuNe fishing mood lately and have taken to posting posts that no one would ever believe. Either I've caught a big one here or you're playing me at my own game. Either way, strike the flight safety stuff from the records.

I had to write that; a large black staff car has just pulled up outside.

Anyway, this is a secret forum and you're using a pseudonym so feel free to divulge your tales.

[Tourist]

"I do believe Mr Courtney Mil's comments because they are reasonable and because they are in accord with what I have seen from within the industry."


Courtney is a very knowledgable and experienced military aviator.

He is also having an amazing purple patch winding up gullible non-military types such as your self on a variety of threads at this time.

Go and look at his last 20 posts, and ask yourself.

" If I have failed to spot this man departing into the most egregious caricatures of military culture that anyone with a passing knowledge of aviation would spot a mile off, should I really trust my own judgement?"

Autism must make the internet tricky.

Just sayin'......

Oh, just a quick one.

Sorry to break this to you if it is a surprise, but you are aware that Topgun was not a documentary, right?

[Courtney Mil]

You have a way with words, my friend.:ok:

[mike-wsm]

Courtney Mil - I appreciate you may come to regret your candour in previous posts should the worst happen and the media find your comments. This being so (wish I could say that in Latin), I have refrained from quoting your posts, so as to leave you the option of deleting them and preserving your pension.

Ipso facto? Nope, not sure. Something like that.

[BEagle]

This being so (wish I could say that in Latin)...

We once had a pompous Flt Cdr who loved using quasi-legal Latin terms in his letters, such as 'inter alia' ... An utter oik who thought his position in life was rather higher than in fact it really was. Courtney, you might have come across him when he was known as 'Thrombo' (the wandering clot) or 'AWF' (avocado with feet) in the early days of South Atlantic F-4 ops.

This was too good to resist, so many a made up Latin term was soon used in response to his turgid memos and minute sheets....:E

2 which I used were recalled from prep school days wrestling with Kennedy's Latin Primer:

'Ob has causas' - meaning 'because of these things', but pronounced with Molesworthian glee as 'Ob harse cow's arse'...

'His verbis dictis, autem' - meaning 'these things having been said, however' - which is pretty close to your 'this being so', mike-wsm!

Ipso facto more correctly refers to the direct consequences of actual fact rather than to something someone might have opined* as in 'His verbis dictis, autem'...


* - another wanqueword of early 1980s staff officer speak!

[Bubblewindow]

I'm led to believe a group of people who like to get intimate with trees climbed a hill and flew kites and balloons at the exit of the Mach Loop earlier in the year.
Funny how they weren't locals per say , visitors to the alternate technology centre I believe . Aircraft exiting the Loop to the north would have came down (god forbid) on or near Dolgellau the only built up area in these parts, ironically enough, should the worst have happened .
I believe some photographers waiting to photograph aircraft politely told them where to go.
Never ceases to amaze me the ignorance of some of the NIMBY's in that area. The genuine locals seem mostly ok about it (well, there are the odd days of wall to wall F-15's which I will admit are extremly loud directly underneath )
Being Mil Aircrew and a photog in the loop I've met with some harsh words from people visiting the hostelry I stay in.
One couple who have a holiday home in the southern loop where outraged at the aircraft flying below the level of their house!! (They live half way up a mountain!!). Not knowing who I was (at the time) they showed me a brochure from they're business back on the east coast.
They 'pimp' classic cars into drag racers !!!
Loud noise......:ugh:

BW

[mike-wsm]

Thanks, BEagle :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

I appreciate you may come to regret your candour in previous posts should the worst happen and the media find your comments

You think the media, whomsoever 'they' may be, are going to quote me from here. And take away my pension? Maybe PPRuNe hacking could be the next big story. I think you can safely quote me should you wish, but I do thank you for your concern.

Actually, if you think there's money in it, please feel free to pass on a teaser of my comments and invite them to get in touch for an exclusive. But I suspect even the Sun could spot a poorly baited trap from a million miles. Not that that would necessarily deter them.

BEagle, you're bringing back very disturbing memories of Latin classes now. I may need a cold shower, a cross country run and several lashes to complete the memory.

[mike-wsm]

Courtney Mil - Once a disaster has occurred our good friend Mr Google is extremely good at leading media reporters to PPRuNe. On a couple of threads media reports have been found to be based on uninformed speculation which originated here only hours earlier.

[Red Line Entry]

Could Courtney and Mike be PPrune's answer to Morcombe and Wise? No prizes for guessing who is who!

[mike-wsm]

Who?



oooooooooo

[Courtney Mil]

I am writing all the right words, just not necessarily in the right order!

[Halton Brat]

This thread is the most fun I have had since my Grandmother caught her t*t in the mangle.

Mike wsm, you are more at risk of being mown down by Lord Lucan riding Shergar, with the Holy Grail tucked under his arm, than you are of witnessing a disaster due to the Red Arrows arrival techniques.

Lighten up, for God's sake man. If you had been at Kitty Hawk beach in 1903, those pesky bicycle mechanic chaps would have been banned from experimenting with their strange machine.

The Arrows are demonstrating the same skills that generations of RAF pilots have honed in peacetime in order to protect the burghers of Weston super Mud & other outposts of the Empire in times of conflict with those foolish enough to tangle with the Royal Air Force. You and I may not even be here if this were not so.

So, man up, fly the flag, put the RAF Marchpast & The Dambusters on your wind-up HMV gramophone & have a nip of whisky in honour of & gratitude to those who have done & still do, defend this Sceptred Isle.

Per Ardua ad Astra

HB

[The Helpful Stacker]

HB - To be honest, I think the Germans may have better marches.

Royal Air Force March Past - YouTube

Luftwaffe March - YouTube
(Yes I know it isn't really their's and was written by an Englishman)

In fairness though, both are trumped by Heart of Oak.

[Halton Brat]

HS - now you've gone & done it - BEagle will have THAT picture up here again......

HB

[Exascot]

Mr Exascot's post about tax-free status, his use of irony was so immaculate that it passed me by.

We once had a pompous Flt Cdr who loved using quasi-legal Latin terms in his letters

'το μήνα που δεν έχει Σάββατο' would I dream of being ironic.

Sorry but my Latin is worse than my Greek and that's cr@p.

[mike-wsm]

Halton Brat - awww, great memories of going to Halton on a navigation course during the fifties, was promised acquaintance with the Dalton Computer and entered the hut as an eager schoolkid expecting to see an enormous machine with flashing coloured lights, punched cards and teleprinter. In the event it was an ingenious machine to help you draw triangles, loved using it. We had the proper roller-blind ones. Do those still exist?

Exocet Hiya! Nice to meet on your home ground, I'm only here as a civvy home-owner. We didn't do Greek so will take that as "Never in my wildest dreams" or somesuch.

Stacker - shall look forward to hearing the music at the library, have to conserve data when at home.

[Exascot]

We didn't do Greek so will take that as "Never in my wildest dreams" or somesuch.

It is a saying here. It is correct but I have just put it into 2 different translation programmes and it doesn't come out at all correct.

Basically, it means 'never' literally: The month that doesn't have a Saturday.

There endeth your Greek lesson of the day :cool:

Still no low flying Turks here :ooh:

[Courtney Mil]

So, man up, fly the flag, put the RAF Marchpast & The Dambusters on your wind-up HMV gramophone & have a nip of whisky in honour of & gratitude to those who have done & still do, defend this Sceptred Isle.

Well said, that man. At last we have the final, definitive and absolute answer to this thread no, thanks to HB of our Human Resources Dept.

As there have been no other complaints from Weston-Super-Mare, it's safe to assume that the original question is now answered. If not, of course, we (The Official PPRuNe Complaints, Rebuttals and Accusations Panel - TOP CRAP) must assume that you are the one and only customer that we have been unable to find a resolution for. Should that be the case, we regret to inform you that we have exhausted our considerable legal and technical resources and must advise you now to elevate your complaint to the Daily Mail, who will be happy to give you a splash on page 52.

Of course, the MoD could always help, but I would advise you that October is a somewhat busy period due to leave, training and staffing issues commensurate with current manning levels.

We wish you every success,

TOP CRAP

[mike-wsm]

Thanks, TC, however there are a couple more paper avenues as yet unexplored, shall be looking into those when my busy schedule permits.... :E


PS - Whilst on mil, may I ask if any Lancaster experts are in the hangar? I'm even now soldering lights into place so this is your final opportunity to exercise your knowledge. Thanks!

[Courtney Mil]

Of course, you try posting your thoughts on the "Please Fly Over My House" thread. They hade a different crowd there with a more reasonable mindset. But, naaa. I think you've probably given up. Just a thought.

[MFC_Fly]

Earlier in this thread I asked mike-wsm a question as to what his real concerns were. He replied to me via PM and I asked him another series of questions, also via PM. However, since he has not answered, what I think is a very reasonable series of questions for this discussion, then I will ask them again here...

Mike, why are you concentrating all your efforts on one tiny part of just one day of a 2 day air show, namely the overflight of WSM by the Red Arrows (probably lasting less than 30 seconds) as they fly a rear-arrival manoeuvre?

Why have you gone to the trouble of an FOI request for the rules/regulations over this single event?

If you are so concerned about the safety of innocent residents of WSM have you not considered that the 2 day event will attract many outsiders by road and there is a far, far greater probability of innocent residents of WSM being killed as the result of a car accident during the event than anything, let alone a Red Arrow Hawk, falling from the sky?

If you truly are concerned for the safety of those on the ground at WSM then surely you should be trying to get the whole event cancelled and thus prevent the large amount of visitors on the roads in the town for that whole period, and thus avoiding the much greater risk of an accident occurring.

I look forward to your reasoned reply,

MFC_Fly

[Sideshow Bob]

mike-wsm

There's no need for a FOI request for the rules & regs, google is your friend. They are all open source available Here (http://www.maa.mod.uk/regulation/index.htm)

All military Aviation is conducted within the rules and properly assessed to ensure the risk to life ( 1st, 2nd or 3rd party) is tolerable and ALARP.We have to do this in line with civilian policy (JSP815 Annex A (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DD96114D-2266-49E7-A478-1DECDB86039F/0/SofSPolicyStatementPart1Signed2.pdf))

Just so you don't have to check my profile, I'm an ex mil aviator who has worked in aviation safety since 2008 :ok: (at a certain base with an airshow)

(Whoops just realised I've become one of the retired old gits who post on Pprune that I always used to complain about:{)

[Courtney Mil]

You only just realized that you retired?

[mike-wsm]

Hi Guys,

Some misunderstanding here.

I contacted rafat pr by email, asking to see the waiver. They referred my request to HQ Air Command, who sent me copies of the waiver documents, saying that they were treating this as an FoI request.

My consideration of the wording of the waiver and in particular to whom it refers and if applicable their level of competence is ongoing.

MFC Fly wishes me to comment on comparative risks. If RAFAT obey the law and recognise that the waiver is not applicable over towns then the risk to our and indeed other towns will be reduced by one hundred per cent.

Hope that clarifies matters,
Mike

[Courtney Mil]

Mike,

You were worried about me falling foul of a curious Google leading to the press findingstate secrets here. You might want to be careful about your clear accusation that the RED ARROWS ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND ARE CAVALIER.

It's not the noise that worries me, it's the cavalier attitude. One has only to read the official accident reports to learn just what attitude some allegedly professional service pilots have toward safety procedures

I have in front of me MAA/OP/04/Reg/Waiv/FlyDis12/02 which says differently.

You flyboys should do your dangerous flying in dangerous flying areas, where there is minimal risk to the innocent civilians who have to pay your tax-free wages and accommodation and food and whatever else we have to pay for.

just giving you guys a chance before making a good case to send to "the respective event Flying Display Director"

My copy came from MoD under foi. It is my understanding that RA 2335 complies with European Law and that RAFAT have negotiated waivers with some but not all European countries to permit rear entry.

My concern is purely the risk of leaving one big smoking crater in the center of a town

So why not stick to European Law and take those risks out over the sea?

If RAFAT obey the law and recognise that the waiver is not applicable over towns then the risk to our and indeed other towns will be reduced by one hundred per cent.

Shall I call the Daily Mail with this story or would you like to?

[Inshala]

Mike, you have now made me flash. If you wish, I will publish your letter on this website; one of the most absurd I have ever read. How dare you continue with this idiotic tirade, that is rude and offensive while suggesting that the RAFAT operate outside of what they are legally allowed to do. Everything they do is scrutinised to the minute detail by professionals who ask lots of questions and once satisfied, write the rules. The Team are supervised very heavily and operate to limits ABOVE what they could do. Also, how dare you comment on the Teams 'Malta issue' without any knowledge of what happened. In fact, the Team had a minor problem and played it very safe, as they always do. I have had enough sir and it is about time this thread was closed. Flash over...for now

[mike-wsm]

TC - All perfectly reasonable statements, provided you are careful with your English comprehension.

Did anyone think to tell you guys at Finmere - World War II is over. Sorry you had to survive on Spam and powdered egg for all this time.

[mike-wsm]

Inshala - Did you read the Heraklion report?

[mike-wsm]

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q594/mike-wsm/pprune/feed_trolls_zpse965eb18.gif

[lj101]

Mike is a bit like a toddler having a tantrum and there is no point in reasoning with him. Ignore the bad behaviour, reward the good.

Mike - on the naughty step for 69 minutes.

[hval]

Good evening Mike,

I have skimmed this thread so may have missed much. If I repeat what has been written previously, or have misunderstood your concerns, I apologise.

The Military exist to protect the UK and UK interests (e.g. food and material supply routes). To do so requires not just equipment, but also skilled, trained, able people.

To train, one must train in a fashion that could be considered useful in a conflict situation. This is why it is useful to be able to fly through valleys, fly at low level, fly in formation etc.

If not skilled the Military persons might not live long, lose the piece of kit they have or many other nasty things. By doing this, they are not protecting the UK, or UK interests, just wasting their lives and some rather expensive kit.

There is some use for training over the sea, but not if the conflict is occurring over a desert, a mountain, or Europe like countryside.

Military life does have more hazards than your average civilian job. After all, how many other jobs is there someone trying to shoot you, blow you up, murder you etc? To reduce the big, big risk of definitely being killed you carry out training that is relevant, and has a fairly low risk element - such as flying down valleys when you are not being shot at.

Now for air displays; the purpose for displays is many fold. These include: -


Assists with recruitment by inspiring people
Lets tax payers see equipment and skills of trained persons
Provides the tax payer and the media with a small insight as to what the Military do
Allows foreign nations see skills and equipment. This may comfort allies and deter potential foe
Engenders esprit de corps within the military. This is something that is particularly important as each persons life does depend on how well each person works within the team
Aerobatics may also prove useful to save your life or a team members life. After all dog fights are a form of aerobatics

I have missed gosh knows how many other reasons for air shows, but hopefully you may have a small comprehension as to why air shows exist, and why the Military must train as they do.

One thing I should mention is the increased safety over many years. Yes aircraft have incidents at air shows , yet being at an air show does not significantly increase the risks. After all AF Flight 447 wasn't at an air show, yet 228 souls died. The Teneriefe KLM disaster killed 583. They weren't at an air show either.

If you really wish to reduce the number of "deaths" I would take a look at other matters that include starvation, poverty, war, crime, corruption. Take as much interest in these topics and you could potentially save a lot more lives.

[hval]

Mike,

I would suggest after reading your derogatory, inflammatory comments above, that you actually have no intention of listening to the truth, but are looking for ammunition to help you further your own, personal, selfish, short sighted aims.

And the Military put their lives at risk and die to protect people like you?

[Exascot]

hval - excellent posts, but you are probably wasting your breath. He doesn't want to listen to logical reasoning.

[Snafu351]

"My consideration of the wording of the waiver and in particular to whom it refers and if applicable their level of competence is ongoing."

My consideration of mike-wsm's words and in particular the lack of any real substance or point and thus his level of competence has been concluded.

In summary his contribution to this thread demonstrates a level of self importance, attention seeking and ignorance that can only be displayed by a complete knob.

Good day to all.

[Halton Brat]

End it Ref, before it gets ugly & personal..........

HB