Holding altitude during turns

[shumway76]

This question is regarding to maintaining altitude during medium & steep turns.

If during a level turn at say 2,000ft, you notice your altitude drops slightly to say 1,950ft, you adjust your attitude to arrest this altitude drop. Now you are flying a level turn perfectly at this new altitude of 1,950ft. Do you adjust your attitude again to regain 2,000ft during the turn or just leave it at this new level?

[sevenstrokeroll]

you try to get back to 2000'. the object of a turn is to not lose altitude unless YOU INTEND TO LOSE altitude.

[Pilot DAR]

I suppose you must ask yourself why holding altitude was necessary. If you are following an instruction to hold an altitude, then you should. This would obviously include returning to it if you stray. If the intended precision was only for your own satisfaction, you blew it, on well....

Bear in mind that it would be quite uncommon for a request to maintain a particular altitude in a turn, and a steep turn to be required together - except perhaps on a flight test! The steep turn is rather an unusual event maneuver, where maintaining control of the aircraft is more important than altitude precision. The maintenance of altitude is perhaps more an effort to assure that you prevent the entry into a spiral dive.

If this is a flight test request, and you find yourself half way around, having corrected and still within the required tolerance of precision, I'd stay where you are. You're more likely to blow it the opposite way rushing to get back to the stated altitude, in the remaining half of the turn.

[John R81]

Personally, for me it is a matter of pride.

Unless intending to reduce or increase altitude, I always aim to hold altitude as precisely as possible in a turn, no matter how steep. I fly unstabilised helicopters of both US and European design and so the tendency to climb/left dive/right with turns reverses when I change cockpits.

Why do I think it is important - simply to be as much in control of my machine as I possibly can be; to be the most able pilot that I can be. As you practice more and more it becomes second nature and eventually you don't have to think about not losing / gaining height. That way when it actually matters you have the skill.

For fixed wing, one of my friends aims to make a steep turn and run through his own wake - like hitting a speed bump. He can do this time after time now, but does confess that it was long practice that led to this.

[Pace]

Whether flying wings level or in various degrees of bank you need to be able to maintain an altitude.
When you advance into instrument flying you will be expected to fly at set altitudes whether flying straight and level or in a bank.
The fact that you have descended means that the input for various degrees of bank and the required pitch and power to maintain Altitude and speed are not correct.
I would not be afraid of "putting the aircraft back" to where it should be!! as only then will you get the true feel of what is required.
I have flown with experienced pilots who descend through an assigned altitude and almost sit there frozen until the controller picks up on the fact that they are 200 feet too low!
There are times for finger tip control of attitude and power and times when you need to grab the bull by the horns and have the confidence to place the aircraft where you want it smartly.
it is about confidence and feel so if your not where you should be put it back ;)
As John above said its a matter of pride in your flying to aim for perfection to be able to fly varying degrees of bank and to be so precise that the altitude needle does not move and you roll out on the nail.
To accept a lower altitude as your new altitude is just sloppy flying and that is not what we all aim for or aspire to achieve.

[Pom pom]

John R81 said:
For fixed wing, one of my friends aims to make a steep turn and run through his own wake - like hitting a speed bump. He can do this time after time now, but does confess that it was long practice that led to this.

I was taught this during my PPL training and thought achieving hitting my own wake was a good indication of a level steep turn. However, someone then pointed out to me that the wake will be descending, so perhaps all I managed to achieve was to lose height at the same rate as my wake! :confused:

[Pace]

What you should be trying to achieve is where you roll in to a bank at say 3000 feet hold a set degree of bank with the ball centered, have that needle act as if it is set in concrete all the way round and roll out with it still set in concrete at 3000 feet! As long as the altimeter needle is not literally set in concrete and jammed :E you have not descended ;)

Pace

[effortless]

I think we should treat precision as part of our continuing development. Certainly, in our day to day flying, as non professionals, gaining or losing a hundred feet isn't the end of the world. But being able to maintain a level as a skill is worth practicing throughout our lives in the air. I want to demonstrate to myself that I am in charge of my aircraft. Or I should say was as I don't fly very much at all now. Certainly never alone. I was a very sloppy pilot. It was getting into a scrape that made me realise that near enough wasn't good enough.

Perhaps this isn't relevant to the original post but I was thinking about an incident when I read it.

[Pace]

Effortless

I hope your incident was not the reason for your lack of flying now as we all have incidents at one time or another which then become a very good lesson.
Obviously hand flying will vary from one pilot to another so we tend to aspire to get as close to the perfect steep turn as we can.
OCAS its not so important to be a precision pilot as it is in CAS.
What was your incident as I have plenty of mine to share too and regularly do too in these forums good, bad or plain ugly :E

Pace

[peterh337]

One should learn to hold altitude during a turn.

This means pulling back a little, and then pushing a little when one has levelled out (otherwise you will climb up a bit).

OCAS, perhaps no need for it but one should always aim to fly accurately. It's not hard and then when you need to do it you can do it. If you are flying at an intended 3000ft, say, and you drop down to 2700ft, and you let that go as 'OK' then why not let it go further?

[effortless]

Thanks pace but it wasn't that bad. Banal in fact, just got me a bollocking in front of a few people. Never really bothered me but I was glad of the lesson. I learned why my instructors were so anal.

I was stopped from flying by the m.o.. Terrible thing old age. Most of my career changes have been medical. Did think of going down the NPPL route but I still have a few friends who take me up.

[jecuk]

I think this question almost sums up for me the great advantage of doing an instrument rating or other advanced instrument training. Even if you never plan to fly an approach in anger, the idea that changes in your altitude, heading or attitude or airspeed should be deliberate is a great thing to strive for IMHO.

And my view on the OP's question, is that unless you have gained too much airspeed and pulling back could really cause a spiral dive or stress the airframe, get back to the altitude.

[Pace]

It's either a level turn in which case that is what it should be or a descending or climbing turn.
It is good practice to be comfortable with all!
Try a descending turn to level still in the turn at a set altitude all good practice ;
As stated I have been with IR rated pilots in Cas who bust a level!
On realising that they act in slow motion till the inevitable bollocking by ATC!
Why ? There are times to grab the thing by the horns and quickly and firmly plant it where it should be ! It is the same with small altitude excursions wings level or in a bank!

Pace

[Steve6443]

Thanks pace but it wasn't that bad. Banal in fact, just got me a bollocking in front of other people

And that's what makes people less likely to discuss their issues with others, because they don't want a bollocking in front of other people - I mean, let's face it, who does? In our club, mistakes are discussed confidentially at first then published anonymously to protect the identity of those involved - everyone gets to learn, no loss of face and as an added bonus, you get to try and guess who [place muppetry here].....

[piperboy84]

One should learn to hold altitude during a turn.

This means pulling back a little, and then pushing a little when one has levelled out (otherwise you will climb up a bit).

I must have wandered off the reservation I thought pulling back a bit would only steepen the turn, i thought adding a bit power would hold the altitude.

[Pace]

Not quite ; ) you have two energy supplies! The power plant and potential energy in the airframe! If that was the case what would a glider do in steep turns with no engine ?
Admittedly with no lift the glider will have to trade altitude for speed but not initially

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Pulling back in a steep turn in which the nose is dropping (spiral dive) will tighten and steepen the spiral. The 'G' loading and the speed will rise alarmingly!

You'll need to take off most of the bank (with co-ordinated rudder and power reduction), regain the correct attitude, then roll the bank back on with associated power. Even in a glider you'll need to roll off the bank before restoring the correct attitude, else you'll just tighten the spiral.

Never mind instrument flight, nothing sharpens your handling skills like aerobatics does. And max rate level steep turns are a good test of elevator, aileron, rudder, and power co-ordination.

[piperboy84]

I like to think of back pressure increasing angle of attack to support the G-load associated with turning, with any additional power offsetting the drag associated with higher angle of attack

So would it be correct to say that using both increased back pressure and power would be the best method to recover lost altitude in a steep turn?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

So would it be correct to say that using both increased back pressure and power would be the best method to recover lost altitude in a steep turn?

Only if you want to pull the wings off. Please go back a couple of posts and read mine. The correct recovery action is given there.

[Pilot DAR]

So would it be correct to say that using both increased back pressure and power would be the best method to recover lost altitude in a steep turn?

Yup, best way.

Turns create increased G, which increases drag. Pull back to maintain altitude with increased G, and add power to maintain your speed against the increased drag.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Pulling back while in a steep turn where height is being lost (so a spiral dive, then) will (as I said) result in more 'G' and the airspeed winding up, the rate of height loss increasing, so even more 'G' and even more speed, until the aeroplane breaks. Adding power will just make the above happen more quickly.

The very first thing to do to recover from a spiral dive is LEVEL THE WINGS!

Pulling back and adding power will only correct height loss in gentle turns, not in steep ones. Aren't steep turns part of the PPL any more? All of this is (was?) covered in the syllabus.

[piperboy84]

Aren't steep turns part of the PPL any more? All of this is (was?) covered in the syllabus

Done my PPL almost 20 years and 3 wives ago, forgotten a lot since then ( some of it intentionally !) but learning everyday also so its all good and it never hurts to take a second look at principles and procedures you believe are correct to verify and change if wrong.

As my FI from my PPL advised me way back in the early 90's "Every day is a school day"

[BackPacker]

The very first thing to do to recover from a spiral dive is LEVEL THE WINGS!

Actually, UNLOAD the elevator, then LEVEL the wings, then pitch to the horizon.

If you have a significant amount of pitch (G's) in, and roll without unloading that pitch, you increase the loading on the wing root, possibly to the point of exceeding its design limits. In the ultimate case, the wing may even break off. This is called wing root bending effect and the problem is that it doesn't show on a G meter. Flying below Va also doesn't protect you from it.

[Pilot DAR]

The OP talked about a 50' loss of height. It is entirely appropriate to use more back pressure and power, and maybe reduce bank angle slightly. The loss of 50' is not a spiral dive of death requiring the action you describe,

I second that!

What are we talking about here anyway? To me, a steep turn is a stabilized maneuver, which can be held indefinitely with 60 degrees of bank, and 2 G being pulled. No wings coming off, or speed building up.

This is not something that you'll ever be doing as a part of an IFR or other ATC required procedure, so don't be worried about them caring about your precision. It won't be something that most people on this forum will be doing in formation, so you're not worried about spacing by referring to altimeters, and it is well within the capability of any certified light aircraft. If your personal desire for precision flying dictates that your should get the 50 feet back, by all means fix it... But, for my understanding of the standards for a PPL or CPL flight test, you're still within tolerance - You've got to be very smooth, and familiar with the aircraft, and paying close attention to go all the way around that way, and stay within 50 feet. I recall doing this for my CPL a few years back, in my C 150 I have 2800 hours flying. I did it okay, but unusual attention was required, despite my familiarity with the plane. I was also required to demonstrate a co-ordinated rollout within 5 degrees of heading.

If you are in a 60 degree banked turn, and you loose 50 feet, and you want it back, pulling 2.1 G, and adding a bit of power will get you out, with some precise flying. no worries about the plane coming apart. If, from a 60 degree banked turn, you slip into a spiral dive, well, that's well beyond the original question, and warrants a different answer. Pilots attempting to maintain control of certified aircraft within their limitations don't pull wings off them.

Other than for flying competition aerobatics, if you ever really need to do a 60 degree banked turn, it'll only need to be half the way around, and no one is going to be watching for 50' of altitude change.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yes, of course one would unload first to avoid 'rolling G', and the power would be pulled simultaneously. In a max rate turn, attitude is controlled with bank angle, rather than elevator.

But yes, I'd missed that it was only 50'. Not a serious height loss in a MRT, so not a spiral.

[Pace]

This is quite a good description of a spiral dive and not what I was referring to!
http://www.skywalker.ca/Flying_Stories/Bob_s_Stories/SpiralDive.PDF

[Pace]

Pilot Dar

To try and execute the most perfect steep turn you can execute you have to have a reference altitude!
If you fail and end up low on that reference altitude you should not decide to make the newer lower altitude a new reference altitude? If you do the next time round you will again be setting another new reference altitude to compensate for the pilots lack of skills!
In my book you have one reference altitude not 2 or 3 or 4 ; )

Pace

[Pace]

Shaggy Sheep

Just a question? Do you believe its possible to do a steep turn in the descent without being in a spiral dive and if the answer is yes how would you do it?
Because from what you say any descending steep turn is a spiral dive!

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

you should not decide to make the newer lower altitude a new reference altitude?

Well... Maybe, maybe not, I suppose. It depends upon the objective of the turn. If the objective was to maintain altitude, then certainly. Most commonly, the objective of a steep turn is not so much to go around at a precise altitude, but rather to go around under control very quickly - probably to avoid something. So if I miss a few feet, I'm okay with that. Kinda like planning a touchdown point on the runway, realizing that you're going to overshoot it and there's room anyway, and setting up a nice landing to a new spot, rather then cramming into the original one, with a bad landing.

Yes, one can happily steep turn in the descent, but you knew that. I used to get the jump plane down in a stabilized 2+G spiral the whole way. I kept the power up a bit to prevent shock cooling, but made good time down to save the jump club a bit of cost.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Yes, one can happily steep turn in the descent, but you knew that. I used to get the jump plane down in a stabilized 2+G spiral the whole way. I kept the power up a bit to prevent shock cooling, but made good time down to save the jump club a bit of cost.

Yes, I used to do exactly the same when meat bombing. The jump master sitting in the open doorway (on the inside of the turn) loved it!

[FullWings]

Referring to the original post, the whole point is to get to a level of skill where you can maintain a climbing, level or descending turn without all your attention being focussed on it. This will really help when doing things like bad weather circuits or instrument approaches, where unchecked altitude loss can kill you...

[dash6]

Instead of reading this stuff,go fly with an Instructor. Until you have,roll out of the turn and don't experiment until you are sure and confident.(And I don't care if it's only 50ft!)

[GeeWhizz]

Call me unprofessional but this kind of thing is good fun and can be wholly deliberate at all sorts of bank angles, rates of climb/descent, and different speeds. Just know the limits of the aeroplane, stick to the limits you impose on yourself, and know how to recover from anything that looks astray.

We all know what +2G feels like in a steep turn, and we all should know what the G limitations are for our mounts; somewhere between -3 and +6 for the usual GA types. As long as she's not put into a position prohibited by the POH (knife edge flight for example) I see little wrong with safely* getting into a steep turn and pushing or pulling a smidge, or adding reducing power to see what happens. Just keep one eye outside and one eye on whichever thing is beginning to look uncomfortable (RPM gauge?) and calm her down.

*Education via full/part aerobatic course, instructor demonstration, etc.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

In the Chipmunk you sit on the centreline of the aeroplane, so can nail the horizon to the spinner. Helps maintain accuracy in turns both in height maintenance and rudder co-ordination.

[BackPacker]

Another thing which hasn't been mentioned, is the need for consistently good trimming.

A steep turn at a certain angle of bank requires a certain pull on the stick to remain level. How hard to pull is dependent on the angle of bank, airspeed and the aircraft itself. But apart from those factors, there is little else that influences the amount of pull required. So after some practice you should be able to execute a level steep turn consistently without having to refer to instruments at all.

However, if your trim settings are incorrect, then this introduces another unknown variable, and your altitude will be all over the place. In both level flight (but that's normally easier to pick up and correct) and in any kind of turn.

[Armchairflyer]

... and we all should know what the G limitations are for our mounts; somewhere between -3 and +6 for the usual GA types.What "usual GA types" are you referring to? The usual GA types I am aware of (e.g., C152, DV20) are limited to about -2 and +4g :hmm:.

[Madbob]

What I found very helpful when learning to fly was being taught that every turn was an ACELERATION.....

Not immediately obvious but if you think about it is logical. Those of us who are taught aerobatics appreciate this more but every level turn involves an increase in angle of attack and with it drag. To counter the drag more thrust is required to maintain airspeed and if airspeed is lost so is lift and hence you descend.

If you instinctively add a little power as you roll into the turn at the same time as you increase pitch, then the turn stabilises without loss of height and (if you have enough power and limit the AOB) you can also maintain your initial airspeed, and with it the lift you need to stay level.

The same is true in a car. The deflection of the front wheels to turn increased their rolling resistance, if you gently add power in the turn (assuming you have entered the corner at the correct speed!) you can "feel" the car in much better balance. Slowing in the turn is bad as it loads the outside front wheel while lightening the load on the other wheels, which in turn reduces their grip......

Just my 2c's.

MB

[GeeWhizz]

What "usual GA types" are you referring to? The usual GA types I am aware of (e.g., C152, DV20) are limited to about -2 and +4g .

Hence "...somewhere between -3 and +6..."; t'was a deliberate generalisation covering things from the C150s to the Pitts Spesh.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi All, not many of the replies so far have mentioned the Power Control
during turns... I am sure the correct proceedure is to ADD POWER proportional to the AOB. So for instance...

30 deg AoB fly at cruise setting 60% Power
45 deg AoB increase power to say 2500rpm 80% Power
60+ deg AoB increase power to 100%

That way the increased drag will not cause any loss of kinetic
or potential energy.

Sure this is mentioned somewhere in the PPL sylabus.

Pete

[Pace]

The power control as you put it will vary from make to make and engine power available rather than fitting certain power settings as a percentage per degree bank.

You should be able to feel what is required much more fun than fly by numbers :E because then you fly with your soul and your instincts!

Pace

[Warbird234]

What I found very helpful when learning to fly was being taught that every turn was an ACELERATION.....


A little bit of physics (for what it's worth):
Speed and velocity are two different things. Speed is independent of direction, but velocity is a specific speed in A SPECIFIC DIRECTION (e.g. a Vector Quantity).
Acceleration is, in simple terms, defined as a change of velocity. Since velocity has size and direction, it doesn't necessarily mean an increase in speed. Performing a turn at constant speed can be acceleration by virtue of the change in direction alone.
Thus acceleration can be (i) change in speed in a straight line, (ii) change in speed and direction or, (iii) change in direction at constant speed.

Of course in normal piloting terms we talk about speed in knots, be it IAS or TAS, etc. But if we are talking about the physics of an aircraft in flight we should consider it's velocity (i.e. speed AND direction) in order to make sense of the effects of acceleration.