Heads Up - Channel 5 Series : Heroes of the Sky

[CoffmanStarter]

All ...

20th Sep @ 20:00 Hrs Channel 5 ... starting with Douglas Bader.

Best regards ...

Coff.

[Melchett01]

Thanks for the heads-up. An interesting choice of character for the first episode, especially given the proximity to 15th September. I have no doubt that the likes of Bader, Stanford-Tuck, 'Johnnie' Johnson etc would be considered by many to be the true 'heros of the air', it would be nice if Dowding and Park finally received some of the acclaim that they should have had but were denied due to political wrangling and character assassination (and we all thought the Army was bad at politics - not a patch on the RAF!)

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I once had dinner with Wg Cdr John Freeborn DFC* RAF. When I asked him what he did, he replied that he flew more hours and more sorties during the BoB than anyone else! After I got back in my box, he then went on to tell me exactly what he thought of Douglas Bader. None of it is repeatable - even on PPRuNe! Needless to say, he was less than complimentary! Sadly, he died in Aug 2010.

Duncs:ok:

[Halton Brat]

Douglas Bader seemed to be able to generate the most widely-polarised sentiments in those he encountered in life; truly a 'love or hate' character, with seemingly no middle-ground opinion of him. His acolytes, such as Johnson & Crowley-Milling, would clearly have flown through the gates of Hell with him.

I read somewhere an anecdote told by Kenneth More, who played DB in Danny Angel's 'Reach for the Sky' film. More was a guest at a Dining In night somewhere, & mentioned to the PMC that he intended to speak about DB & the film in his after-dinner speech. The PMC strongly advised him not to, as some at the dinner had been PoW with DB and had suffered considerably from his 'performances' with the German guards & officers.

Personally, I feel that the only reason DB ever got back into the RAF & the cockpit of a Spitfire was precisely because of the character traits which many colleagues found so objectionable. Did the same traits lead to his terrible Bulldog crash in 1933, perhaps......?

HB

[The Helpful Stacker]

Nicely dove tailling with this thread, Reach For The Sky is on Film 4 right now.

[finestkind]

HB,

I believe the answer is in the book "Reach for the Sky". Apologise as it has been some time since I have read the book and therefore not 100% accurate but the gist is correct.

Stanford Tuck and (uncertain) Sailor Malan, watching Bader disappear (in car) after a rather strong discussion with superiors on whether to go cannons or stick with 303's (Bader being vehemently opposed to cannon's, typical Bader with his opinions being either in full support or full negative).

Tuck commenting on why Bader had to be so obstinate and bloody minded with Malan replying if he wasn't he would not have been here (meaning I guess that if he had not had those traits he would not have survived his injuries)

[air pig]

What about Leonard Cheshire, VC DSO DFC OM revered by his man, youngest Group Captain in the RAF at 28, dropped rank to lead 617, and out and out a fine human being. Not a pre war regular like Bader or Gibson, and nowhere near as well known like the majority of aircrew.

[mmitch]

finestkind.
Your memory is accurate in the story but it was in 'Fly for your life'
Tuck's biography that I read it. Milan's first comment was 'Exit the demon king!'
mmitch.

[tarantonight]

..............what a fantastic book.

[Pontius Navigator]

There is a tale of two about Johnnie Johnson too.

[glad rag]

Yep, a totally, brutally honest account indeed.

[NutLoose]

They reckoned one of the advantages Bader had in combat was the fact he had lost his legs, rather like a modern G suit he was able to withstand greater G levels in combat than his adversaries as he had no pooling of blood issues in his lower extremities, hence he could withstand turns that would have others blacking out.
I remember he tried to get one guy charged during a visit for calling the RAF the "raff" as you say as opposed to R.A.F. when I was still in and he was a Civilian.
He also when visiting some Station on a visit in the twin he used to fly for Shell told the Corporal in charge of visiting aircraft to " fill it up" and when being asked quite rightly asked how he intended to pay, reverted to the " do you know who I am" cr*p and threatened to bring everything down on the poor guy, Bader was a totally obnoxious ****
Wasn't he shot down by one of his own side? I seem to remember a programme looking for his Spit that they believe is under a lake saying it was a member of his wing that got him... Also when I Colditz the man serving as his Batman was to be repatriated back to the UK because of being a none combatant and Bader stopped it happening...

Read

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/102783-baders-batman-has-died.html

[FantomZorbin]

mmm ... he came to a secret airbase in Shropshire to 'open' a Christmas Fayre (sic) - kicked up a lot of fuss on being asked to be transported to the site in a helo..

Cometh the hour, cometh the man etc., but disappointing nevertheless:(

[thunderbird7]

I nearly got run over by Bob Tuck (& Raymond Baxter [caught smoking under the school stage in 1936, my dad said]) at Biggin Hill one year. Happy days... :D

[Pontius Navigator]

FZ, he wasn't the only one that thought everything was free. I stayed at Carlisle one night. They were very keen to confirm I was active service. A 'Gp Capt' had stayed there overnight one night - thought everything was free.

There was a flt lt, owned a very large warbird, used to expect a free fill, not just once but on return after another air display elsewhere. I think a former Red Arrow also expected free top ups.

[Rigga]

As an LAC I was "whited up" to marshal him in at Tern Hill in 1975.
"His" Shell Cherokee decided it didn't want my services and so he parked it up near the grass outside the Stude's Crewroom and I walked away to await some instructions - my "mood" regarding hs arrogance was so tangible that my Sgt sent someone else to tank him up and wave him off.

I've never liked him since and used to take the p1ss out of him every chance I got...not that it bothered him much.

But I've always liked Kenneth More.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

This seems to have turned into a topic about DB!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Ain't that always the way! Even today tomorrow and the day after, DB will be the subject of uncomplimentary conversation about him. Paul Brickhill is on record as saying that DB insisted that he says in his book he was in a collision with a Me109. The official RAF records shows he was shot down, Adolf Galland said "there was no collision, he was shot down. If DB was alive he would still say that he had a collision.

[Chairborne 09.00hrs]

There's an intersting choice for the second programme: "Screwball" Beurling.

[Halton Brat]

Hard to stop once you get started with DB.......

When it was later claimed that the Luftwaffe Me109 pilot who shot him down was a NCO pilot, this would have been too much for him to bear. He became even more trenchant in his view that he had collided with a Me109; the prospect of having been shot down by a member of the peasantry was inconceivable to him!

HB

[ColinB]

I saw the program last night and having been in his company once and listened to many tales of his good and bad points I do not believe even his greatest critics would have wished such a dire program about him.

[Wander00]

IMHO the programme was not well made, and contained a number of inaccuracies by comparison with the accounts in the numerous books in which he features. I am not sure he would have been my childhood hero had I known what I know now, but then Neville Duke was another childhood hero, and what a great guy he turned out to be when I eventually met him.

[robin]

It was a bit lightweight, wasn't it.......:yuk:

[CoffmanStarter]

A very disappointing programme Lord Ashcroft ... doesn't bode well for the remaining programmes does it :(

[Tankertrashnav]

They reckoned one of the advantages Bader had in combat was the fact he had lost his legs, rather like a modern G suit he was able to withstand greater G levels in combat than his adversaries as he had no pooling of blood issues in his lower extremities, hence he could withstand turns that would have others blacking out.



Just watched the repeat tonight and some bloke (didn't catch his name) who had written a book on the Battle of Britain helpfully explained that blackouts were caused by high negative G in tight turns :ugh:

Also did I hear Douglas Bader in one of the dramatised bits talking about 'planes'? Oh and they didn't wear queen's crown anodised badges in 1940.

Oh dear, I could go on but I'm starting to sound like a bit of an anorak here, but really, it was a pretty poor effort.

Edited to add, apart of course from the contributions from the pilots who were around at the time, including Bader's wingman - those were excellent

[Molemot]

I liked the way they explained that his Hurricane, being made of tubing and fabric, was thus inferior to the ALL STEEL Me 109....(!)

[millerscourt]

Nothing worse than being shot down by a pleb:{

[Wiley]

I have to agree with the comments about Keith Park.

I do volunteer work in an old people's home and one of the fellows who I see there, whose name is Monty, was Keith Park's dentist. (OK, I'll agree, on the three degrees of separation scale, a pretty tenuous one.) Monty's an interesting character - 96 going on 65 if you get my drift; still drives his own car, bright as a button, and has quite a few stories about working the system to his own advantage during the war, late in the war, by then a Sqn Ldr, commandeering a Mosquito (with pilot) every weekend to visit a girlfriend in Glasgow (from near London) as he couldn't make the journey both ways by train, but train back to base was do-able if he could fly up by Mosquito on Friday afternoon.

He speaks very highly of Park while Park was AOC Malta (where he was sent [supposedly into career oblivion] after daring to play a major role in winning the BoB, but where he played a relatively major (again successful) role in the defence of Malta in what was a very critical period of the Middle East war).

Monty tells of Keith Park turning up one at the day at the base dental section to have a filling done and asking Monty if he'd like to join him on his pinnace the following day.

Flight Lieutenants who are invited to join the AOC anywhere do not say 'no',so whatever he was doing the following day was dropped. He joined Park, not knowing that the AOC, who, because of security considerations, could not say that he was inviting him to join him to witness the whole Italian fleet steaming into Valetta Harbour under the black flag of surrender.

I'm still a little awe-struck when I think that (a) I know a man who's peered into the mouth of of Sir Keith Park, and (b) that that same man was one of the 50 or so people who actually witnessed the surrender of the Italian fleet in 1943.

[XV490]

Saw the programme last week - do I recall correctly that his wingman compared being selected by DB with being anointed by JC?

[green granite]

A much better programme than last week, not that that would be difficult, there again a much more interesting character. Shame that Channel 5 seems only to employ actors from the school of bad acting though.

[thunderbird7]

Still pretty average though! Screwball, one of my childhood heroes, came across a bit weird 'til my wife asked - 'do you think he was autistic?'

Certainly fits the profile, or maybe Aspergers, especially when it came to the speech he made back in Canada, with a certain lack of sensitivity!

Still a top bloke who did the job when it counted. :D

[CoffmanStarter]

I agree ... 30 odd Combat Kills to his credit ... remarkable :ok:

On the "sensitivity" front ... DB apparently had his moments !

During a visit to Munich, Germany, as a guest of Adolf Galland, DB apparently walked into a room full of ex-Luftwaffe pilots and said, "My God, I had no idea we left so many of you bastards alive".

[CoffmanStarter]

Much better programme this evening from Lord Ashcroft ...

A very brave man amongst the other brave men of Bomber Command ...

The KING has been graciously pleased to confer the VICTORIA CROSS on the undermentioned officer in recognition of most conspicuous bravery :-

905192 Sergeant (Now Warrant Officer) Norman Cyril Jackson R.A.F.V.R., 106 Squadron.

This airman was the flight engineer in a Lancaster detailed to attack Schweinfurt on the night of 26th April 1944. Bombs were dropped successfully and the aircraft was climbing out of the target area. Suddenly it was attacked by a fighter at about 20,000 feet. The captain took evading action at once, but the enemy secured many hits. A fire started near a petrol tank on the upper surface of the starboard wing, between the fuselage and the inner engine.

Sergeant Jackson was thrown to the floor during the engagement. Wounds which he received from shell splinters in the right leg and shoulder were probably sustained at that time. Recovering himself, he remarked that he could deal with the fire on the wing and obtained his captain's permission to try to put out the flames.

Pushing a hand fire-extinguisher into the top of his life-saving jacket and clipping on his parachute pack, Sergeant Jackson jettisoned the escape hatch above the pilot's head. He then started to climb out of the cockpit and back along the top of the fuselage to the starboard wing. Before he could leave the fuselage his parachute pack opened and the whole canopy and rigging lines spilled into the cockpit.

Undeterred, Sergeant Jackson continued. The pilot (Tony Mifflin), bomb aimer (Maurice Toft) and navigator (Frank Higgins) gathered the parachute together and held on to the rigging lines, paying them out as the airman crawled aft. Eventually he slipped and, falling from the fuselage to the starboard wing, grasped an air intake on the leading edge of the wing. He succeeded in clinging on but lost the extinguisher, which was blown away.

By this time, the fire had spread rapidly and Sergeant Jackson was involved. His face, hands and clothing were severely burnt. Unable to retain his hold he was swept through the flames and over the trailing edge of the wing, dragging his parachute behind. When last seen it was only partly inflated and was burning in a number of places.

Realising that the fire could not be controlled, the captain gave the order to abandon aircraft. Four of the remaining members of the crew landed safely. The captain and rear gunner have not been accounted for.

Sergeant Jackson was unable to control his descent and landed heavily. He sustained a broken ankle, his right eye was closed through burns and his hands were useless. These injuries, together with the wounds received earlier, reduced him to a pitiable state. At daybreak he crawled to the nearest village, where he was taken prisoner. He bore the intense pain and discomfort of the journey to Dulag Luft with magnificent fortitude. After ten months in hospital he made a good recovery, though his hands require further treatment and are only of limited use.

This airman's attempt to extinguish the fire and save the aircraft and crew from falling into enemy hands was an act of outstanding gallantry. To venture outside, when travelling at 200 miles an hour, at a great height and in intense cold, was an almost incredible feat. Had he succeeded in subduing the flames, there was little or no prospect of his regaining the cockpit. The spilling of his parachute and the risk of grave damage to its canopy reduced his chances of survival to a minimum. By his ready willingness to face these dangers he set an example of self-sacrifice which will ever be remembered.

Coff.

[Wensleydale]

Much better programme this evening from Lord Ashcroft ...

Its a shame that RAF Metheringham was never mentioned considering it was from there that Norman Jackson's squadron, 106 Sqn, flew (the program implied that Syerston was the base although 106 had left there in Nov 43). A pity because Metheringham Airfield has a smashing visitor centre that could have done with the publicity.

At least they didn't mention Gibson although he appeared on a couple of the photographs that were shown on the program.

[green granite]

I thought last night's programme was the worst so far, 15 mins of good factual information about the crew and the last mission the rest was just condescending claptrap the worst bit being, as they left the target on fire, "their radio was knocked out so they couldn't call for help" which gave me the inane vision of a bright red aircraft with a big fire hose rushing to the rescue with blue flashing lights blazing. I shan't bother to watch any more episodes.

[Wander00]

What is Ashcroft's academic historical background. In this context seems to have appeared from nowhere, although I believe he was a major contributor to the Bomber Command Memorial. Wikipedia shows him as "international businessman, philanthropist and politician". Highest academic achievement appears to be HNC in Business Studies from what was then Mid Essex Technical College. certainly there appears to be no background in TV presentation, which may account for much, or not a lot.

[SCAFITE]

It is possible that these are not the best progs to cover this type of subject, but at least the basic facts are there and at least they are trying to bring these brave men to a wider public. Remember not all members of the public are not a bunch of spotters like you lot and me as well.

The fact that blokes like Burling and Jackson have been given their time in the spotlight we should not be slagging this off, and I dont care if you are seeing a model Spitfire MK IX and not a Spitfire Vc Trop, it getting the story out to the wider public.

Yes it could have been better made and some better facts, but you need to look at these progs as windows into a important but often over looked area of RAF History other than Gibson/Bader/Johnson.

I bet there are more than one or two on this forum that have learnt something new from these programs.

[t7a]

Couldn't agree more SCAFITE. I found the really depressing thing about the Jackson programme was that much of the dialogue was lost in the barrage of background noise effects/music?

What a hero though!

[NutLoose]

Coff, I believe there was a small memorial tribute in the hangar at St Athans when I did my mechs course to his VC Award.

[waco]

SCAFITE

Well put that man.....

[CoffmanStarter]

Much better programme this evening from Lord Ashcroft ...

My comment above was "relative" to the previous two programmes. SCAFITE hit's the preverbal nail on the head. In a Country, sadly, where our children and most of their parents know little or couldn't care less about our immediate past, which helped secure the freedoms they now enjoy ... any opportunity to educate and inform is a blessing in my book. Yes ... most of us as the cognoscenti would expect more ... but we have the wit to research and understand more of the detail ... which I suspect would be a further turn-off for Joe Public.

I won't be purchasing Ashcroft's book that accompanies the series ... but I'd be very happy if only a few of Joe Public are minded to do so following the series if only to keep the memory of such brave men, like W/O Jackson, alive.

NutLoose ...

Thanks for the information ... Let's hope the memorial remains cared for now the RAF has departed :(

Best ...

Coff.

[INT_QRU]

The shame of it is that the programmes COULD have been a lot better. Scafite - you are correct in what you say but I found myself concentrating on the factual errors rather than the story as a whole.

I am disappointed- I expected more. Rather typical of today's standards of programme methinks..

[Tankertrashnav]

What is Ashcroft's academic historical background.


This link might help.

Victoria Cross Heroes :: The Ashcroft Collection (http://www.victoriacrossheroes.com/collection.html)

I agree he's no great shakes as a TV presenter, he's certainly no Richard Holmes. Mind you, I think I prefer him to Snow pere et fils gushing over the subject. I'm sure he wouldn't describe himself as a military historian either, just someone who admires the concept of gallantry and has the wherewithal to have amassed a huge collection of Victoria Crosses. They are on display at the Imperial War Museum and I'm looking forward to seeing them next month.

[Wander00]

Good motives, fantastic collection, but does that make him a "historian" or a "TV presenter". There are many much better at both, and don't we miss the late Richard Holmes, also one of the nicest guys I have ever met.

[MightyGem]

was the worst so far, 15 mins of good factual information
Typical Ch5 documentary in my experience. Most of them can be condensed down to about 15-20 mins of useful/interesting information.