Counselling after an accident or incident

[glenb]

I have a friend involved in a no fault fairly significant aviation incident. It has understandably shaken the guy up somewhat and he needs some assistance to "get back on the bike". Would be very appreciative if anybody has any reccommendations of a good person to go and see. Obviouly somebody along the lines of a trauma counsellor or something similar. I am quite surprised how difficult it appears to find this sort of assistance. Someone with experience dealing with pilots would, no doubt, be advantageous. Look forward to any suggestions. Cheers. Glen.

[Di_Vosh]

G'day Glen,

Maybe call the Feds? They'd have acted as a pilot rep for pilots in aviation incidents/accidents. Maybe they'd have contact details for professional counsellors with aviation experience.

DIVOSH!

[The Green Goblin]

If he works for a company then they should have an employee assistance program for this type of thing.

It's free and part of your employment package.

If he works outside of aviation he will no doubt have this as part of his employment also.

[Bunyan Wingnut]

First of all, if your friend is asking whether counselling support is needed or not, then the fact he is questioning means the answer is probably Yes.
Another thing you can do for him is be available and just Listen! Listening quietly and having non-judgemental conversations can help enormously - perhaps a long walk around the airfield perimeter with him...
Police and Firefighters are often involved in less than cheerful incidents where some support is needed for victims, and sometimes themselves. A discussion with some of the older Jacks and Jills in emergency services, about how they deal with post-traumatic stresses and get back on the bike may help.
Ask around the Aero Club CFIs. Senior experienced instructors have probably seen their fair share of close calls, misadventures and dramas - and had to help students and instructor colleagues deal with the consequences.
If there is serious post-traumatic stress, then the emergency services folks may be able to put you onto professionals in your community who can help with that. Chaplains, Ministers, ditto. Look up Pyschologists in your yellow pages - you should find some with trauma counselling and PTS services offered. His DAME may know of a good one.
With regard to getting back into the air; some careful reflection with an instructor is probably needed, with a 'Low Pressure' plan to regain confidence. You might consider him having his first flight as a 'no pressure' flight, purely for fun, with a trusted friend, just getting back "home" in the sky, enjoying what we want to be a pleasant environment.
Good luck to you both...

[flying-spike]

The AFAP used to have members nominated as pilot friends. They were trained by the AFAP and not only served to help the pilot/s involved in an incident to come to terms to what happened but also to act as a buffer between the pilot/s and media, employer and investigators etc. I did this once with a fellow that was captain of an aircraft that was written off but recovered intact. It was not his fault. I went with him to an interview with the operator and as he felt comfortable that he was OK he decided he didn't need me with a consequent interview with the customer. I insisted on accompanying him but as the call was his he ended up going by himself. The customer was looking for blood, got together with the employer and hung him out to dry. He was unemployed for 3 years until an independent investigation of his and other similar accidents vindicated him.
Even if he is not an AFAP member I would encourage him to contact them and ask for assistance.

[mates rates]

If for no other reason than this,you should not be flying commercially without being a member of the union.It is an insurance policy that gives you assistance and protection in a time of need.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Would be very appreciative if anybody has any reccommendations of a good person to go and see. Obviouly somebody along the lines of a trauma counsellor or something similar.If you don't get any personal recommendations, maybe contact these guys and see if they can suggest anyone.
Just a thought, but their Queensland counterparts know of several good local psychs who routinely deal with paramedics, so the Victorian mob can probably recommend someone in Melbourne who's good.
The Ambulance Employees Association of Victoria (http://www.aeavic.org.au/index.php)

[redsnail]

I am a support member of Stiftung Mayday - Impressum (http://www.stiftung-mayday.de/index.php?id=5)
(The English version is down).
They do Critical Incident Stress Management support.
Email them, they do speak English very well - but don't use Australian slang, that might be beyond them. :)

[Volumex]

In the current Flight Safety digest there is an article on QF32 which mentions an aviation psychologist by name, whom the pilot of QF32 visited.
The editor may be able to pass on his contact details.

[djpil]

RVAC Chief Pilot or President would tell you who they used a couple of years ago. Oxford may have such info to hand.

[Aussie Bob]

Glen, stand your mate up and look him in the eye and tell him "get over it"

Before you all start abusing Aussie Bob, consider this: All WW1, WW2, and Viet vets were told exactly this and it worked for most. Personally, I have seen friends smashed to bits in road crashes (first on the scene) and walked away from a major air crash where another was critically injured.

"Get over it" can be good advice. Counseling is a new age idea best suited to weak minds.

[A37575]

With regard to getting back into the air; some careful reflection with an instructor is probably needed, with a 'Low Pressure' plan to regain confidence

Not being a smart-arse or not sympathetic but just quoting a historical fact, but I recall that the only counselling the Royal Air force gave to a pilot during wartime who had just had a prang was to give him another aircraft and tell him take it up straight away for a circuit and landing to get his confidence back. Of course if the pilot was injured in the prang that was a different matter. There was no stuffing around in those days. It worked then but not now because of legal reasons such as CASA suspending his licence.

[AerocatS2A]

Aussie Bob, it's attitudes like yours that cause men who are suffering depression to avoid seeking help for fear of appearing weak. There may well have been wartime vets who managed to get through devastating emotional trauma without outside help, there were also a hell of lot who DIDN'T, have you never heard of shell shock? Has it occurred to you that it is perhaps because of the experiences of others who have had little to no support after a traumatic experience that we now make those services available.

Getting "back on the horse" is something that is good for kids when they've fallen off their new bike while riding down the driveway. It is something that was necessary during wartime because they were desperately short of pilots and couldn't afford to have physically capable people sitting idle on the ground. We don't have those pressures at the moment. Take a look around, as far as I can tell we are not at war.

Most people don't ask for help until it is too late. If someone is asking for help, then chances are they needed it months ago. Telling them to "get over it" is irresponsible.

Rant over.

[givemewings]

Could also try your GP or DAME. They will in most cases be able to refer you to someone local for immediate help, and would probably have the contacts to find someone aviation specific if the avenues above don't pan out.

In most cases people just need a few sessions to 'talk it out' and get things off their chest to someone outside the incident. A good program for PTSD (if diagnosed) will always let the patient opt back in at a later date should any other issues arise (for example, a later beareavement or relationship problem may in some cases trigger off the same anxiety as the initial incident)

You could also try googling the Centre for Clinical Interventions, they have some online workbooks designed to be used in conjunction with counselling if anxiety is an ongoing issue.

All the best for your friend.

[mickjoebill]

This group provide support for the CFA in Victoria.

Counsellors & Psychologists (PPC Worldwide). 1300 361 008.
CFA after hours welfare support. 1800 628 616.


Mickjoebill

[Ozzie Mozzie]

All WW1, WW2, and Viet vets were told exactly this and it worked for most.Well, in the RAF during WWII pilots who suffered from what we now know to be PTSD were classified as LMF, Lacking Moral Fibre. It was not a particularly rare occurrence either.

Soldiers who fought in the first and second world war were often haunted by their experiences. I'm sure many would have benefited from some sort of counselling. Don't know if I'd be so quick to throw around Vietnam vets in that context either. I personally know several who are still seeing counsellors today.

Some people just don't deal with massive amounts of stress as well as other people. This does not make them weak minded or lacking character or of being cowards.

[Checkboard]

Aussie Bob - ever had a spot you worried was skin cancer, and not just a mole?

You spend so much time, not worrying about the problem, but about what the consequences to a possible problem MAY be, and all of the combinations - keeps you up at night.

One professional, who can look at the spot, and say - this is definitely not cancer because [insert technical reason here]. Or even - this IS cancer because [insert technical reason here] - and THIS is what we can do about it. Takes all that "extra" worry away, and allows you to concentrate on the problem - that reduces the stress from "a thousand things which may go wrong" to just dealing with the issue (if there is one) at hand.

So - with stress, especially incident related stress and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) the same applies. Humans don't react logically - you feel guilty when logic tells you you should feel proud. You giggle when logic tells you you should cry (ever done that at a funeral?), and so on, and so on.

To have a professional, who has spent time examining the reams of studies on this behaviour, simply listen to what you are feeling and worrying about - and then tell you what is "normal" (even when it seems stupid) and what is not is what counselling is about. It allows you to stop worrying about the weird stuff which keeps you up at night (because studies tell you it's normal) and concentrate on the problem. It helps.

It speeds up the "dealing with it" process from the years it took the WW2 boys to months.

[Aussie Bob]

Aerocat and others: I have read your points and I sort of feel like deleting the last line of my post ... I did not mean to sound callous.

[Shark Slayer]

May I suggest he contacts his GP and seeks a referral to a specialist. Most GP's are only too happy to help - be cheaper as well.

[hoggsnortrupert]

In what Aussie Bob says:

However, we are all different, and scenarios are different, Ambo drivers on the front line see all sorts of stuff, and they deal with it amongst themselves, as do the military:

However, even seasoned Ambos, and seasoned battle experienced soldiers have and will continue to crack up, in most cases it is when the event has become personal, eg: the Ambo knows the little kid from next door, he is picking up in bits, the soldier all of a sudden has an enemy that has taken an personal & individual interest in "Him" has him targeted:

If this fellow has had a significant trauma, my advice is to go and see a military trauma specialist, dont bother with the civies, they are ill equipped to deal with such:

If he is an "EMOTIONAL" mess, dont let him get back in the machine, ask him for his licenses, you will be doing him a huge favor, but go the distance and let him talk:

He will end up solving the issue himself:

If he does nothing it can manifest in years down the track::sad:

All the best:
H/Snort:

[HarleyD]

Counseling, debriefing or whatever term you use to describe it is a very important consideration when someone has been involved in a serious accident.

Aussie Bob - your facile advice is perhaps the most inane drivel that you have ever posted, and that's saying something. for your sake i hope that your colleagues treat you in a much more considerate manner that you recommend if you are exposed to a traumatic event such as a serious aircraft accident.

i witnessed my first serious aircraft accident whilst learning to fly as a teenager (17 yo). i watched an aircrfat hit trees on take off and cartwheel into the ground while i was awaiting my instructor to turn up. i was one of the first on the scene and assisted with carefully removing the broken unconscious pilot from the fuel soaked wreck. no counciling, didn't seem needed. flew my lesson a little later than planned.

second serious accident witnessed was a fatal when i watched a plane hit wires on an approach. similar to above. flew cross country home next day. still in my teens.

two more serious ones involving homebuilts witnessed, still no probs, no counciling or debrief, wasn't even a drinker.

did an ag rating and another mate killed during the training course. i got out of the plane, he got in and spun it in right behind me while i was driving out the airport road. did not see it as i was horny and heading home.

three ag pilot friends killed in work flying accidents. was a drinker by then of course. debrief at pub.

had a couple of minor scrapes myself, brushed power lines with wheels, knocked a gear leg or two off with fence posts, but ,hey, we're all men here, no trick cyclists for us. now smoking at the pub as well.

had a big one and donged down a few trees before having to kick my way out of the burning wreckage upside down. quick medical check over at local clinic and fly home in a borrowed plane. back next day to finish the job in another plane. 40 a day and punishing the old liver pretty hard by that stage.

hit a flock of galahs while spraying, serious damage to the leading edges and busted windscreen but finished the job before 2 hour ferry back to base for repairs. cockpit floor almost ankle deep in buts, a couple of travellers for the drive home.

another two mates killed flying ag.

Next one, I hit a powerline in hill country and rode the plane in from about 300 feet. didn't think i was going to make it that time but didn't give up. big pull at the last second to mush it in, hit the ground hard, took a wing off, bounced back into the air, rolled inverted, hit the ground upside down and slid along for a bit dragged underneath it, then cartwheeled up the right way. two packets a day, marriage in tatters, VB was my friend.

a friend who was a vietnam vet suggested that i might like to have a chat to a friend of his and gave me a business card for a psychologist that the VVA use.

best thing i ever did!! i was amazed how helpful that taking to a trained professional in this field could be. a couple af visits worked wonders and only saw him about 5 times all up. i had to pay as no self respecting aviation company would acknowledge that this could possibly be work related.

almost gave up the B&H completely and cut down the drinking heaps. almost managed to stay married.

after the next prang i went back to this guy as a matter of course, befor ethe syptoms set in. two visits all sweet.

after the most recent get off, i went back again as soon as i was out of hospital, he listened once again asked a few questions and announced that he did not think that i would have and post traumatic streess issues as these events were no longer traumatic, they had become normal to me and i now had strategies to deal with the symptoms whenever i saw then rising. he was right about the second part, not so sure about his definition of normal.

given up smoking, a glass of wine with dinner from time to time these days is sufficient. happily remarried.

and every time i can help out someone who has piled one in to get a few things off their chest and then i give them a business card for you know who.

PTSD is very very real. if i am flying RPT i am happier if i believe that there must be a proper counciling and support protocol for the flight crew. sometimes i wonder if they had a big one, before they jopined the airlines.

IMHO every operator should treat this subject very seriously. PTSD has the potential to start a time bomb ticking away out there.

HD

[hoggsnortrupert]

You seem quite conceited HarleyD:

SO what, more than a good number of people on here have seen and responded to worse, this was not a counsel session for HarleyD:

Aviation's the game, and fatalities go with it, get used to it? I think you should get out of the game while you are alive, if you are for real, your skill set is obviously not up to par!:mad::mad::ugh::ugh:

WTF! H/Snort:

[flying-spike]

It seems to me like you only read half the guy's post. From what I read he started off cocky and ended up coming to the realization that nobody is bulletproof and went for counseling. Pretty much sums up what happens when you lead an adventurous life and deny the consequences. They don't go away. The trauma lies in wait for the opportunity come out in a flood.

[j3pipercub]

'H/snort'

Were you born that much of a tool or did you have to work at it?

Harley, I thought your piece was an honest and interesting insight into the microcosm that is Ag. Thankyou for sharing your piece with us.

j3

[Hugh Jarse]

hoggsnort: Do you only open your mouth to change feet?

Time for you to move into the nineties, fella. :}:}:yuk:

[jas24zzk]

From personal experience, I found a counsellor that has little knowledge of your industry quite helpful.

It forces them to ask questions that someone with industry expertise would not ask. Often those questions will present the answer your subconcious seeks.

My first stoush with counselling was when I was 19. Finishing my trade ticket in a country town, driving tow trucks to supplement the measely wage. Had attended about hald a dozen fatals already, then got called to one in Yarragon. Until arrival, the fact it was a fatal was unknown. As I was driving the chase truck, it made me first 'service' on scene. I wandered over to see what was going on, although I already knew from the smell. Did the basic checks (pointless really) and walked back to my truck and drove back to base.
As this accident was on the hwy (main street of Yarragon) there were many bystanders. As it turned out, it was there reaction to my actions, rather than what I had seen that sent me a little troppo.


Counselling has a solid place in our lives. Even if you feel overcome with basic events going on in your life. Its helpful to talk to someone impartial to at least get them into a priority order. You can say what you really think without having the stigma of looking at that person the next day