Radio Calls in Oz

[navoff]

Hi Guys

I am from the UK and find the variations in Oz slightly confusing. I'm struggling to find a definitive document like CAP 413. I have checked the AIP and various VFR CTAF documents, but I am constantly told Some of my calls are non-standard, yet I can't find what the exact standard is!! I assume Oz is ICAO, with local variations. Could somebody please give me a reference that I could use?? A CAAP would be good.

Navoff

[baswell]

Let us know when you find such a document, we Australians would love one too!

[Radix]

............

[Capt Claret]

Listen to the rest! (When in Rome do as the Romans do)

For heaven's sake DON'T do that, otherwise you'll get most of it wrong. Like reading back, "copied no traffic", or saying "Centre, "ABC" IFR taxi", or reading back "follow the 717 on final, maintain own separation, caution wake turbulence". etc. etc. etc.... :ugh:

The AIP in the good ole days, published standard phraseology from engine start to shutdown in a logical sequence. Now a days it's a hoth potch affair, difficult to follow admittedly, but not impossible. KNow what needs to be read back and stick to that, DON'T try reading everything back in the hope of capturing the required bits. :ok:

[worked to death]

Good luck Navoff. Not only have you come to a very non standard ICAO country, but one which is still stuck in the mentality of aviation ruled from the public service. You will not find the service you get from the CAA at gatwick. A CAAP would be lovely on many things, but hat wold make scared people accountable.
:ugh:

[navoff]

Thanks for your responses, it pretty much sums up my experience of radios in Oz. I have read the AIP and read the CASA VFR documents, but still find some calls I hear regularly, missing.

Another question, why don't we use the phrase "runway vacated" at CTAFs as opposed to "landed, clear of all runways"?

Navoff

[LeadSled]

Navoff,
The answer to your last question ----- because that would be too simple and obvious.

One thing you will need to do is have a look at CAR 166, about operations around non-controlled aerodromes ---- which is most aerodromes in Australia --- and download or get a copy of the little book CASA publishes on the subject.

Even a simple position report does not follow the recommendations of Annex 10, Vol 11, or PANS/RAC 4444.

With one small exception (in UK - not Australia) the readback requirements are the same as CAP 413. If you stick to good UK (which is ICAO --- with only a very small number of differences filed with ICAO) radio practice, plus the requirements of CAR 166, you won't go too far wrong.

Beware of the strange idea that: " The faster you talk, the more professional you you are doubtless being". Don't accept the "invitation" of some "professional" pilots to indulge in "pilot arranged separation' --- do it yourself ATC, but stick to the recommendations for exchanging traffic information.

The trouble with "do it yourself" ATC is the mindset becomes that the participating aircraft are the only aircraft in the area. You do not have to give way to "larger" aircraft, the only aircraft that have a priority in Class G airspace are aircraft experiencing an emergency, and it is the right thing to do to give way to the RFDS/Air Ambulance. Beware of "larger" aircraft ignoring CAR 166 and "smaller" aircraft in the circuit . There are far too many pilots who thing the operating $$$ per hour establishes the priority for airspace or runway sequence.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Get the CASA books published for each capital city secondary airport, and read the instructions for the "Australian" so called Class D, the treatment of D as quasi C, with non-ICAO clearance requirements.

[Aimpoint]

Clear of the runway is not a mandatory call. It's a waste of radio time unless it's somewhere like Toowoomba where either end can't see each one another.

[A37575]

And for goodness sake don't clog up the airwaves with Gooday, cheerio, have a good one, good morning, afternoon, evening and good night. USA and UK radio transmissions are full of this bulls*t. And don't read everything back like they do overseas..:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Clear of the runway is not a mandatory call. It's a waste of radio time unless it's somewhere like Toowoomba where either end can't see each one another.
Correct, furthermore, if you think it is necessary, the phrase "Runway Vacated" could be used (similar to AIP GEN 3.4 page 50). :}

[das Uber Soldat]

8 replies, 0 answers. gotta love this place :rolleyes:

AIP GEN 3.4.

Edit : dammit blogs beat me by < 1 minute!

[redsnail]

UK the bastion of all that is good with R/T?
UK "Pass your message"
Rest of world "Go ahead"
UK "When established on the localiser, cleared to descend with the glide path"
ROW "Cleared ILS"
:rolleyes:

There are some good bits
UK "After the landing traffic, line up xxx"
ROW "Behind the landing traffic, line up and wait behind"
:cool:

[Ted D Bear]

No 'go ahead' here in Oz anymore :=.

Apparently we might think that was a clearance :ugh:

[neville_nobody]

Heard in the US -

ATC - "Contact 121.75"

US Reply "Roger 21 and three quarters"

The US carriers are awesome.....

Melbourne Departures United 123 airborne through one point five for five.... :ok:

[SOPS]

So are the US controllers

"ABC 123 when vacacted call the ground on point niner, cheers". It took me a while to figure out he was refering to the ground freq of 121.9!!

[RAC/OPS]

UK the bastion of all that is good with R/T?

Redsnail, have re-read the posts a couple of times and can't find anywhere that suggests the UK has got it right.

And I think UK ATC is now able to clear for an ILS approach.

The pilot who was told to go ahead and promptly taxied, took off and flew to his destination has got a lot to answer for. Although sounding a bit odd, at least "pass your message" gets the intention across rather than the Australian solution of merely responding with the aircraft callsign!

[Jack Ranga]

Yes.............'go ahead' is now strictly forbidden, I just say 'make my day' instead.

Mate, just make sh!t up and read every single thing back, I mean everything. Because if you read everything back you are guaranteed to have read what's required back in amongst all the tripe :ok:

Trust me, it's not a reflection of your professionalism to make sh!t up and read everything back. It simply congests the airwaves and makes us all sound far busier than we really are :ok: therefore sounding more important too!

In summary, make sh!t up and read everything back and you should be right :ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

Just don't ever use the word "underSTAND" as a prefix to any readback! I once flew with a yank co-pilot in a foreign country who acknowledged everything with "understand....." The problem was that his inflexion made it sound like a question, so the controller then repeated the whole thing. It was a bit like "roger, Roger" in that movie.
He did it once too often, and after repeated warnings that if he said it one more time I would hit him, I did indeed punch his lights out. The one and only time I ever resorted to violence as an adult I hasten to add. Tony Abbott punched a wall didn't he?
Being the foreign country that it was, the punchee would have had no hope of pressing an assault charge (I am not that silly!).
UnderSTANDably, when we landed he quit on the spot.

[Capn Bloggs]

He did it once too often, and after repeated warnngs that if he said it one more time I would hit him, I did indeed punch his lights out.
Is that the Manage part of CRM: I'm the Captain, you're the Resource and I'll Manage you any way I damn-well please...Understand?! :}

[Mach E Avelli]

An early version of CRM: A mate of mine who joined BA as a junior Second Officer once described himself as the Captain's sexual advisor: as in "when I want your xxxxing advice I will ask for it".

[Trent 972]

ICAO comprehension requirements to achieve a minimum level 4 to operate as a pilot.
Operational 4
Vocabulary range and accuracy are usually sufficient to communicate effectively on common, concrete, and work related topics.
Can often paraphrase successfully when lacking vocabulary in unusual or unexpected circumstances.
Basic grammatical structures and sentence patterns are used creatively and are usually well controlled. Errors may occur, particularly in unusual or unexpected
circumstances, but rarely interfere with meaning.
Pronunciation, stress, rhythm, and intonation are influenced by the first language or regional variation but only sometimes interfere with ease of understanding.
Produces stretches of language at an appropriate tempo. There may be occasional loss of fluency on transition from rehearsed or formulaic speech to spontaneous interaction, but this does not prevent effective communication. Can make limited use of discourse markers or connectors. Fillers are not distracting.
Comprehension is mostly accurate on common, concrete, and work related topics when the accent or variety used is sufficiently intelligible for an international community of users. When the speaker is confronted with a
linguistic or situational complication or an unexpected turn of events, comprehension may be slower or require clarification strategies.
Responses are usually immediate, appropriate, and informative. Initiates and maintains exchanges even when dealing with an unexpected turn of events. Deals adequately with apparent misunderstandings by checking, confirming, or clarifying.WTF do we need to know the concreting business now? :confused:
Although in QANTAS that may be a good thing to have shortly.

[Mach E Avelli]

Fark, my piolot lisens sez I am Level Siks but I unnerstand not a word of dat mumbo jumbo. But I spikka da English OK for ol man. Da nice man in de kontoll tower an me get on reel good. Other piolot also unnerstand me.
Fillies distrak me lotta time so maybe dat is problem?

[LeadSled]

"ABC 123 when vacacted call the ground on point niner, cheers". It took me a while to figure out he was refering to the ground freq of 121.9!!

SOPS,

Not reading your country briefing, I see. FAA specifically nominate that for all ground control frequencies in the 121.x range, Tower will just say "Call .x".
SOPS not up with the SOPs??

Tootle pip!!

[SOPS]

fair call...and I am up with them now

[Nautilus Blue]

Heard in the US -

ATC - "Contact 121.75"

US Reply "Roger 21 and three quarters"
The US carriers are awesome.....

Melbourne Departures United 123 airborne through one point five for five....
ATC - United123 squawk 1234
United123 - roger, 1234 on the box, cummin atcha now.

And dare we mention THE Speedbird.

[Kharon]

Oh, how I wish this thread had never been started. I was going to have a dig, but Mamma says it's dinner time, then my bath, then, I get to talk to Teddy for 5 minutes.

Sounds like more fun - don't you agree?

[framer]

In Australia is there ever any requirement to call visual? I can't find anything about It in Gen 3.4. Is it part of contacting approach and reporting in flight conditions?

[travelator]

1.11.1.6 When making first contact with Approach Control, the following apply:

a. Not Identified — report DME distance if available, together with either the radial if VOR available, or compass quadrant from the aerodrome, assigned level, flight conditions and advise receipt of the ATIS (code);

b. Identified — report assigned level,flight conditions, if appropriate, and receipt of the ATIS (code);

Can't give AIP ref as this is out of my Jepps.

Just read your post properly and you already knew this! I only report visual if the the STAR ends in a visual approach. I'm sure ATC don't care if I am in cloud, on cloud, under cloud or might go through a cloud if I am heading for the ILS.

[Oktas8]

Travelator, thanks for mentioning that ref, even if the OP did know it.

I've been wondering ever since I started flying IFR here whether to report "IMC" on initial contact with a Class D tower, when not visual.

Your reference indicates yes, I should.

About a hundred pages further on in Jeppd, Communications - Phraseologies - 7.7 Frequency Management, "Flights contacting Approach Control", the only mention of flight conditions is, if a visual approach can be made, append "visual" to the initial contact call.

What do you all do? Report "IMC" or say nothing until visual?

[travelator]

I say nothing until visual but only if we will be doing a visual approach. In class C the "flight conditions" is "if appropriate" and it's only appropriate if a visual approached is expected.

An IFR aircraft will be treated as if in IMC unless otherwise stated. You will not be given an altitude below MVA/MSA/LSALT unless you have called visual. Calling "in cloud" will have no effect on how ATC clear you for an IAP. It may be beneficial if ATC can shorten you for a visual but this doesnt really happen to jets at the busier airports.

I do the same for a class D tower.

[Oktas8]

Thanks travelator. Cheers.