Zero to hero pilot training FAA/JAA.. advice anyone?

[tgblackett]

Hi everyone

My name is Tom, I'm a 22yr old Brit and about to embark upon my final year at the University of Edinburgh studying a business degree. To be frank, academics have never particularly inspired me and I've always dreamt of being a pilot!

Over the last 2 years I have explored the world of aviation seriously and have discovered 3 routes of entry to pilotdom

a). The military

b). Sponsorship through a civil airline

c). Paying yourself through a civil pilots course


I have decided the military is not for me. Whilst the training is FREE and no doubt amazing, I cannot commit. I have a great amount of admiration for the professionalism of the forces as well as some of the activities they carry out, but I know it just won't suit me.

Option B is to pursue some form of sponsorship but this seems to be basically unheard of (especially in Britain). There is little reason for me to get sponsorship, my interests at university lay with sports clubs and ski trips, not the univeristy air squadron. Whilst this may seem defeatist, I think I'm being realistic.

The final option is to pay my way from zero to hero. I am recieving £40000 in a will when I reach my 25th birthday and will also have been working for a few years up to that point and so will hopefully have saved another £5000-£10000. This gives me a lump sum of around £50000 at my fingertips when I'm 25. The research I've carried out suggests that this is in fact NOT enough to train in Britain, and I will in fact need a sum of money closer to £70000 or £80000 (too much for me).

However, I have had quotes from US Pilot schools such as ATP of $66000 who will train me through a PSE, PME, IR, CSE and CME and will leave me with 255 hours of flight experience (105 being multi engine). I am aware that this is not anywhere near enough experience to get a job as a pilot, not that I could find one easily anyway being a Brit in the States.. unless I get married :(

I have however discovered that many countries in Africa such as Zambia and Botswana will take newly qualified FAA pilots (often European) on the small experience that they have without making them take any conversion exams (usually to fly safari flights or something along those lines). I am a fairly experienced traveller and thus moving to Africa doesnt frighten me, also my family are moving to Zimbabwe at the end of this year, so I feel like this is actually a viable option for me and it excites me greatly.

I need some advice! Are my financial estimates realistic (AKA can I actually get fully sorted on £50000 and by 'fully sorted' I mean employed to fly on any scale)? have any of you taken the path I am planning on taking? Do any of you know ATP's reputation? Or have you trained with them? Do any of you know any other decent pilot schools in the states? Have any of you built your hours in Africa? If so.. doing what? Maybe some of you know a British pilot school who will fully train me for £50000?

These are all questions I need answering and any help would be greatly appreciated!;)

[tiger88]

It should be possible to manage all the training in the UK through the modular route with 50k. For example Air Service training at Perth in Scotland aim for the entire course for under 50k including hour building but excluding the MCC, exams/test and licensing costs. If your planning for bush flying to begin with then you won't need the MCC at that stage anyway. I believe Stapleford are also very competitively priced as I'm sure many other modular FTO are. However these costs are all based on minimum hours so reserve funds is a must not only for additional hours but the exam/test, licensing and living costs to name a few.

No personal experience of the FAA training or ATP but an FAA licence would limit your future job prospects within Europe should you decide to return to Europe. Have you thought about doing the EASA/JAA licence in the US? Dont know the costs or detailed rules but plenty schools offer this, I think having to do the IR in Europe but don't quote me on it.

Final note, plenty of other guys have been in your position and asked much of the same questions all available on this forum.

[Hitbacker]

Hi there, cheapest way into the bush, I think: 130 - 150 hrs in gliders (do that in the UK, start now, include 30 hrs in TMG - you can still count these later for the CPL/ ATPL, and try to make as many of these as possible as cross country flights of more than 50 nm straight line distance), study everything you need ahead for the FAA written exams (Private, IR, ME and CPL), and then go to the States with a small mom & pop flight school under Part 61.
150 hrs in gliders can be validated for the 250 you need for CPL ME/ IR, but in all honesty for the PPL/ cross country building etc. you will probably need 120 hrs anyway. Include 30 - 50 hrs in the FNPT for the instrument training - and THEN with all the money you have saved you can be happily pursuing either jobs in Africa or build your experience by towing gliders, dropping paras etc. If you don't make 130/ 150 hrs in gliders until next year, get a taildragger rating and some aerobatic lessons stateside, it's gonna make you a better pilot and more likely to allow for more hourbuilding (glider towing to my experience is often enough done in taildraggers, just to mention it). Everything else afterwards is covered in other forums (P2F, SSTR, self-sponsored line training etc.).

However, if you have the funds of say 60 k $, go to Aviator.edu and instruct with them after your CPL ME/IR. Not sure how short they will be of instructors in late 2013/ early 2014, but if you go on an F1 visa, teach for about 12 months OPT I am sure it will greatly enhance your employability in Africa as opposed to wannabes like me with 300 hrs.
Oh, chief pilot at Aviator is a former glider pilot and (French) naval aviator, since they combine 141 and 61 in their syllabus there might be some hours you won't need in a 120 $ per hour aircraft if your logbook is full of UK glider time. Just a thought...

Just my 2 cents, and good luck!

[B2N2]

My 2 cents;

Dont try to do this on a shoestring budget, it will force you into choices you may regret later...ask me how I know.
You should be able to safe more then the 5k-10K you projected.
Easier said the done but at your age there is money to be found;

Live with your parent(s)
Limit your going out and partying
Dont take holiday trips
Watch what you spend on clothes, shoes and other stuff you really don't need

You might now be able to save another 20K so your budget is 50K with 10K for emergencies or unforeseen expenses.

[Contact Approach]

PPL - £8000

Hourbuilding - £10000

ATPL's - £3000

CPL/IR - £25000

MCC - £3000

Total = £49,000.

These are realistic figures.


(That's from my experience, albeit up to ATPL's just now.)

[B2N2]

That may be the case but there are no living expenses, transportation and emergency expenses factored in.
Even with 60K you may still need a (smallish) loan to finish up.
With you degree finding a decent paying (non flying) job shouldnt be a problem. this will allow you to keep refilling the tank as you go.

[Contact Approach]

Yes you may be right, but that wasn't his question:

AKA can I actually get fully sorted on £50000 and by 'fully sorted' I mean employed to fly on any scale

We all have to live, and living has cost's associated.

If you work whilst doing your PPL, hour building and ATPLS, you can use the will to get you through.

[funkydreadlocks]

PPL in france is a lot cheaper, we're talking about 7000 euros (about 5600 pounds). I did it there. Spain also has good deals, Aerodynamics Malaga is a is offering CPL, ME/IR and MCC for about 20 000 euros (16 000 pounds).

I know Jerez is a good school because I met a guy who loved it and it's apparently even cheaper than the Malaga one. If the schools are good, and you know it, it's worth having a look into them. Jerez does all the training in English.

It's much more expensive to fly in the UK as well

[taxistaxing]

I need some advice! Are my financial estimates realistic (AKA can I actually get fully sorted on £50000 and by 'fully sorted' I mean employed to fly on any scale)?


That certainly sounds like a sensible figure to achieve fATPL, plus MCC, from a good quality modular provider. To achieve this figure you should aim to do each stage as intensively as possible. If you train on a 'part time' basis you will increase the hours you take to clear each stage, and therefore costs. I would say do the PPL intensively over a few weeks, then take a break from flying and do ATPLs part time (while working to keep cash coming in). Perhaps hour build in the states for a month, and then do CPL/MEIR on a full time basis over three months or so.

You should also think about what you will do with your fATPL. Bush flying in Africa may be an option, although possibly not as easily achievable with only 200 hours as previously, if the posts on the Africa forum are to be believed.

If you want to stay in the UK you are unlikely to get any kind of flying job with just the basic fATPL as the market currently stands. You will likely need to factor in additional costs either to fund a type rating (£25k with Ryanair, and unlikely to be less than £10 - 15k with a turboprop operator). Alternatively you might become an instructor, likely to be at least another £6k for the rating.

That's my 2 cents as someone who is also embarked on ATPL exams, with hour building almost complete. Food for thought but you're in a brilliant position to have a big chunk of change at your disposal at such a young age!

[Uniform267]

I would say 50k is a realistic figure for Modular training - though this would be less had you joined the UAS and been PAYED to put hours in your logbook!

[Skyspirit]

If you choose your c). Paying yourself through a civil pilots course
then you can get your PPL to fATPL here in Serbia for approx 30-40000 euros.

Serbia is J.A.R. country and you will get JAA license, so afterward you can work in EU states

Regards

[truckflyer]

Somebody once showed me a very "cheap school" program from East Europe! To be honest, when you started breaking down the calculations for the different moduls and what kind of aircraft they used for their training, it worked out the same as any modular school in West Europe.

One example of a trick they use, is to tell you how cheap their IR is, however what they don't tell you, is that you do most of your IR training in a SEP, and than just before the test they convert you to a MEP, so you hours paid are for SEP!

Believe me, there is not much different in cost between countries, either in East or West Europe! USA is good for hour building, weather, and combine with a long holiday its ideal!

The point with this, be aware sometimes saving a few pounds might give you more headaches with your licence! Also remember UK is now EASA, there is some new paperwork on stuff now floating around.

You should also budget yourself for having money for a TR in case you do against all odds get offered a job after training! This of course if you want to go to Hero!

As somebody suggested, if you can live home, work and train part time, so you can save up more money would be good.

Places like Stapleford are good also in the UK, fair program and prices.

I am not clear on the exact prices for PPL and hour building now, but from others I would have thought a budget would be around:
PPL/Hour Building in UK: £16.000 - £18000
CPL: £7000
ME: £3000
IR: £15000
ATPL : £3000
MCC: £2000

£46.000 - £48.000 is possible (remember exams fees, living costs and some equipment, should be covered in the total of £48.000.

There is money to be saved in some of the above modules, depending on your own performance.

Doing FAA and conversion to JAA, will not necessary make it much cheaper for you, you will have to have money to spend for the conversion later! With JAA you have chance to apply RYR , which is a good start!

Going to USA will mean much money going for travel costs, living expenses - and many more temptations than in the UK, so I would live at home as much as you could, and take it one step at a time!

[BAe 146-100]

50K quickly becomes 70-75K, due to type ratings (ie Ryanair).

[Skyspirit]

truckflyer wrote: Somebody once showed me a very "cheap school" program from East Europe!

I don`t know for other "East" european countries, but aside good schools here in Serbia, you can save your money and get excellent education.

Don`t need to mention very cheap living cost, approx 300-400 euros for apartment and healty organic food... ! Also people`s are very attentive

[truckflyer]

My calculations when compared equal for equal, that there was not big difference in the total price.

Not starting a nations conflict/debate, I would stick to the tried and tested, I know of a mate had MCC done in Hungary, he got a job, but after TR done they did not accept his MCC, he had to go and do another one in Germany.

I have been in Slovenia, to be honest you will find us from west are a bit spoiled, was not my favourite place, to far back in time for my tasting.

Flight school sure was good, but my calculations that time worked out no cheaper than UK modular school!

[Skyspirit]

"I know of a mate had MCC done in Hungary, he got a job, but after TR done they did not accept his MCC, he had to go and do another one in Germany."

Well,if this is not correlate with some mate knowledge problem, than this is part of very bad EU (or UK) particular company policy!

But ofcourse, if there is problem with Hungary school for MCC than this is not Hungary problem, or east europe problem...we can`t generalize this things on that way!

Shall we blame whole France for Air France accident over Pacific, including bad MCC, so we would not go to France to finish MCC...ofcourse not.

[truckflyer]

Not offending you, but first he was not UK, he was Austrian, the MCC provider was a reputable MCC provider, but was not accepted by his CAA!

Sometimes, and people should be aware, that it can be quite a bit extra paperwork involved when using unusual providers, from foreign countries, one of the issues is the verification process of all documents to the FTO.

I know probably not end of the day, but unless there is a significant saving in costs, I would not take the chance for this! Also you have another issue, ATPL theory must be completed in the country where you do your CPL/IR, unless you get special permission in advance!

Knowing how some countries English level is on the ATPL theory questions, I would also avoid doing this abroad, so if you do ATPL in UK, you can not automatically do your training in Serbia!

There are so minimal savings in doing this, if any at all!
With a well known provider in the UK, you can do CPL/MEIR the flying part for £22.000 - £23.000, if you do minimum hours. That gives you around 22 hours ME with a DA42, and CPL in a SEP!

I doubt very much you would be able to offer a program for the above, showing you significant savings on this!
Than include the hassle to have to do your ATPL's in Serbia!

Than you will have companies not recognising this school when you go for an interview! Hmm. sorry, not me preferred choice, not saying it is bad, but I would never have considered, even if I saved £500 - £1000!

[Skyspirit]

Ofcourse you not offend me, you just represent classic western way of thinking. I understand that you want to save money inside your country, it is good...but it is not nice to do that humbling others. You can only show your quality by your reference and business approach, and students will come alone

It is mostly all about that, believe me!

On the end you are free to choose every country and school in world you like...but don`t tell me that you can`t find good or even better school outside of UK, and all that for 50% less money than in UK!

Here you can choose our well known Flight Academy in Vrsac city (over 15 planes + turboprops) and do your 0 - fATPL at about 40000 to 45000 euro. If you choose to finish some of grass field schools accros Serbia you can do it for less than 40000 euros, so we are not talking about 500-1000 GBP savings. Don`t need to mention that 100LL is ~1,4 euro/lit !

A lot of Serbian flyers are over world right now, flying for big companies or business jets, as a matter of fact I have coupled of buddies which do that.

Currently, among big number of far eastern students, you can find british, holland, norwegian students. Every day we have direct connection with London Luton for 50 euros with Wizz air, so Serbia is closer than you think.

So welcome

[truckflyer]

I also have a friend from Serbia that did all his training in the UK!

You need to compare equals, this is what I found out with the one in Slovenia! Most the hours was SEP for the IR, while in UK it was MEP!

What is the price of one hour in a DA42? (with and without instructor)

What is the price of one hour PA 28 and Arrow?
What is the price of one hour in a C152?

What is the price of a PPL?

Tell me these numbers, and I will to you, if you are really competitive!

[truckflyer]

PPL £6,810 (10% discount if paid in full £6129)
Solo:£ 95 per hour (block booking 50 – 99 hrs)
Distance Learning £2,100
CPL £4,970
Instrument Rating (CPL Pilot) £10,445
Multi Engine £2,445

So from Zero to Hero, £26.000 + hour building - these are the prices from a very well known modular school in the UK! This 32.000 Euros + hour building - minimum hours!

[Skyspirit]

Here is some close modular prices:

PPL 5200 Gbp
solo 70-75 Gbp (block)
school learning (not distance!) CPL 1000 , fATPL 1900 Gbp
CPL 4000 Gbp
Instrument 7000 Gbp
Multi 2900 Gbp

total approx 21.000 Gbp + hour building (approx 5000)

+ very important factor that we have better flying conditions which mean more flying hours over year

All of that just 2,5 hours from London (and there is a lot of young people understand English)

[truckflyer]

Am I correct that most the hours in the Instrument rating is done on a SEP?

You put down £7000 for IR, I am curious what kind of Aircraft is this, and you see hourly rates on this MEP?

You put PPL £5200, and Instrument £7000!

If solo block is £75, and you say hour building is £5000, that means 66 hours, that can't be enough! You will probably the double of that, to get to total of 200 hours, if you manage to do all courses in minimum hours!

I am sorry I am not convinced of those figures to be enough, but looking at the bigger picture, providing numbers are correct, £900 saving on PPL and CPL, £1800, you need to confirm what aircraft your instrument rating is based on, but I am pretty sure it is not 15 hours in a MEP, but please tell me, because it is important you compare like for like!

[Skyspirit]

In that numbers you will have minimum 8 hours of multi (Aztec or similar)

Aircrafts are C150 for PPL, C172 or Piper for instrument (SEP), Piper retractable for CPL (min. 10 hours)

There is some private planes to get for hour buildings for as low as 60 Gbp, so I gave you 70-75 as medium prices (75 is maximum for C150)! Others numbers are Ok as well

Students here already finish their fATPL`s for very close sum I already gave you, depending on their flying skills and additional hours, so no need to convincing you

Regards

[truckflyer]

Exactly what I meant, it's like comparing apples and oranges, the quotes I gave you is for 22 hours Multi engine, Seneca and DA42!

To be good on ME IR test, 8 hours is really scraping!

It's false advertising! Exactly the same as I saw in Slovenia!

You could do the same in the UK if you requested this, but it's not practical!

Your students wll need more ME time, above minimum, which will cost extra!

[student88]

I managed to get to CPL ME IR in £50K.

[Skyspirit]

Sorry, but everything is open and no hiden cost, it`s up to students to see if he/she can do that in minimum requested hours which is prescribed by law! If you want total of 15 multi hours it will be ~2200 Gbp more...

Seneca is also one of multi planes here

This is no advertising, it`s up to everyone to be serious and give hard effort toward`s good and efficient learning. When you have that approach you have better chance to finish on time and spare some money.

I know at least a dozen peoples which finish with this attitude and almost minimum of hours.

[truckflyer]

You telling me extra 15 hours multiengine for IR with instructor is extra £2200 more?

Making it £146 per hour for Multi-Engine incl. IR instructor?

I am sorry have very hard to believe that price, even in Serbia, still makes the IR £9200, not £7000, when you compare similar type of hours!

What would the MEP without instructor cost for 15 hours?

[Jugs08]

Having flown in both jaa and FAA here is my opinion. Go and get your licence in USA with a reputable school that has a scheme with some regional feeder airlines. It will be much cheaper and you will have more options as the ga scene and bus jets is larger.

You can convert and even save some cash. Jaa
Licence is over priced and the weather is poor. You will gain exposure to more
Things such as parallel approaches with 737 and vectoring around them at PPL stage. European airpspace is busy yes but you ain't getting
Anywhere near anything big a shiny. In America you will.

[Airmann]

Try Canada. It's cheaper than Europe, buts its ICAO whereas the US is not. And as a Brit it's easier to secure a residence permit there later on. Also if you need to convert over to FAA it's a matter of sitting an air law exam and the license is handed over. I finished my entire training, Integrated fATPL, for ~$60,000 (£38,000). The program took 1 1/2 years, even with delays during winter due to weather. The school was in Eastern Canada where things are much cheaper than the rest if the country. Average rents are around $350 (£230)/month, but you can get it cheaper, you'de been fine going there with ~£55k-60k

The only issue is that you are left with only 190 hours, but needless to say most people coming out of my particular school found jobs. Lots of the students stay on and instruct. MSG me if you want the name of the school.

[zondaracer]

European airpspace is busy yes but you ain't getting
Anywhere near anything big a shiny. In America you will.
How do you solve the problem of getting a green card for non-US Citizens?

Try Canada. It's cheaper than Europe, buts its ICAO whereas the US is not.

Umm... The USA is ICAO.

[truckflyer]

"Go and get your licence in USA with a reputable school that has a scheme with some regional feeder airlines. It will be much cheaper and you will have more options as the ga scene and bus jets is larger. "

Jugs, I am sorry, but some of your posts does not stop to amaze me! I mean where do you get all your information from? If you actually have any?

As Zondaracer says, no chance of working in the USA, unless you have wife from there, or green card lottery - impossible!

Including conversion costs, travel costs, living costs, you are not saving much going to the USA, unless you want to have a holiday and build hours!

[Skyspirit]

Truckflyer you should read carefully what I wrote!

"If you want total of 15 multi hours it will be ~2200 Gbp more..."

...so it is approx 300 Gbp for flying hour in twin!

[wisecaptain]

Why have you given up on sponsorship???
Why have a defeatest attitude?
You certainly will have to pay if you dont try!!!!!
BA Cityflyer were looking to sponsor people for MPL for this October to transition onto Embraers
Flybe do so too.
Do the ground work , do a PPL , join the cadets. Do whatever it takes to get the sponsorship and a job.
or pay for an ATPL which will cost you £50K+ and as you can see , very little else.