Aviation enthusiasts left intimidated while viewing at St Athan

[mathers_wales_uk]

A number of aviation enthusiasts have of late been offered abusive behaviour whilst viewing aircraft on the Old Llantwit Major road which is situated alongside the Southern Boundary of RAF St Atahn, Vale of Glamorgan.

Aviation enthusiasts left intimidated while viewing at St Athan - View Article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/aviation-enthusiasts-left-intimidated-while-viewing-at-st-athan/)

Have you experienced similar treatment at other locations?

[Hotel Tango]

No, but I can't help noticing how quickly spots around certain airfields/airports become overrun with litter. I don't blame the real enthusiasts (spotters) for this as I know that most want to preserve these good spots. The worst offenders are often passing visitors with families. In some cases, as in Birmingham some years ago now, one popular access road off the A45 had to be closed to the detriment of the true enthusiasts because it became an unofficial dumping ground. I know it's already done by some, but I recommend that the local spotting fraternity at airports take it upon themselves, on a voluntary basis, to keep spotting areas litter free.

[AndoniP]

if the farmer is intimidating or using threatening behaviour then they should report him to the authorities. they should be able to put him in his place and make him aware it's a public road and he has no rights over it.

[walterthesofty]

Have to say some of these anoraks are a total menace, at our airport these types are forever blocking emergency entrances and generally making a bloody menace of themselves, if i had my way id ban them from airport perimeters

[D120A]

Can understand that walter, but have difficulty with it on military airfields where the older spotters' taxes will have paid for what they are looking at, and the younger ones could be the recruits of tomorrow.

In the 1950s I was regularly moved on by the cops from the fence at RAF Biggin Hill. Didn't stop me though. Cut forward 10 years, when I am on a Comet flying from Akrotiri to Lyneham with my squadron boss:

Boss: "You always been interested in aircraft?" (I was his squadron junior engineer)

Me: "Yes, from the age of 6, nothing else interested me. Used to cycle 9 miles to Biggin Hill, just to see what was going on. Always a battle with the cops, but once had a grandstand view of the London-Paris air race, where some Group Captain was winched down from a helicopter into the right hand seat of a Hunter T7 which then scrambled for Paris."

Boss: "I was the pilot of that Hunter!"

So, make provision for spotters. Give them a spot to occupy (with a good view, a wooden bench or two and The Rules clearly posted) and give them a wave as you taxy past. Best of all, as at one fighter station I served at, send the NAAFI wagon down there mid morning and make a few bob flogging them teas and hot pasties. :ok:

[Planemike]

if i had my way id ban them from airport perimeters

Errr........why??? Live and let live.

Go along with D120A's suggestion: make decent provision for those who wish to view activities. Banning things often has little positive effect, if folk want to do something they will just get on and do it anyway.

Planemike

[walterthesofty]

Sadly many spotters seem to think airports exist solely to enable them to collect reg numbers and do not seem aware of the chaos they cause

Im glad to say the police are now taking a very firm approach with these morons and impounding any cars blocking emergency entrances and arresting and charging the owners

[DaveReidUK]

Im glad to say the police are now taking a very firm approach with these morons and impounding any cars blocking emergency entrances and arresting and charging the owners

Arresting ???

[air pig]

As long the police don't do what happened in Central Liverpool outside an MoD building in the city centre. Given many don't know it is MoD but at the time due to activities over the water security was somewhat enhanced. Staff call police about a car outside, illegally parked, they cordon area off and call the RAOC bomb squad who promptly deploy wheelbarrow, attach disrupters, and you've guessed it BANG. Car reduced to wreck but no bomb found. On lifting the cordon the owner appears say what f**k have you done to my car. Merseyside police officer ascertaining he was the owner promptly did him for illeagal parking.

Moral of this story, just be careful where you park.

[srobarts]

waltersofty your attitude to spotters in the spotters corner bears a striking similarity to previous banned members kevlarcarl and simonchowder, which according to some here are your previous id's. So you don't like spotters, if that is correct, stay out of of spotters corner and keep every one happy.

[Smoketrails]

waltersofty,

Sorry you feel that way! Don't blame us for not having an hobby you enjoy!?

Spending a long weekend at LHR a couple of weeks ago, I witnessed all aircraft enthusiasts taking great care in not getting in the way of the authorities or obstructing any crashgates or emergency exits! The culprits, if you want to call them that, are the families who come and watch the aircraft with their kids and are oblivious to the unsafe situations which they can create by parking illegaly etc.. Us spotters are actually well aware of what we can and cannot do round airport boundaries.

Best regards,

A spotter

[srobarts]

Very well put Smoketrails, where is the like button when you want one!

[ZOOKER]

Very sad that many who work in aviation view those for whom it is a hobby with such disdain.
Among those clad in anoraks, (and they often have to be, because aerodrome perimeters are exposed to the elements), may be the pilots, ATCOs and aviation managers of tomorrow.

[Hotel Tango]

Among those clad in anoraks, (and they often have to be, because aerodrome perimeters are exposed to the elements), may be the pilots, ATCOs and aviation managers of tomorrow.

Or indeed of today and yesterday. ;) I have met current and retired professionals such as doctors, commercial pilots, numerous air traffic controllers and lawyers who pursue the hobby.

[airsmiles]

In actual fact some of the spotters are ATCO's! Quite a few don't actually see the aircraft they control and take an interest in seeing the real things at airports.

I can't condone parking in front of emergency exits etc. but if the paranoia about security subsided a bit I think spotters would be only to happy to park legally in a designated spot on the perimeter. Some people give the impression that they'd rather tolerate muggers and murderers rather than spotters, whereas spotting is a totally innocuous activity.

All it needs is a bit of tolerance and goodwill.

[DaveReidUK]

Sadly many spotters seem to think airports exist solely to enable them to collect reg numbers and do not seem aware of the chaos they cause


Happily, the authorities don't seem to share the poster's view:

Bedfordshire Police value the aviation enthusiasts as the eyes and ears of the police and the airport community. They are all knowledgeable people with enquiring minds and an interest in what happens at the airport. We wish to work with them to harness that interest and use it to help make London Luton Airport a safer place for all of us.

Aviation Enthusiasts (http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/how_can_you_help/aviation_enthusiasts.aspx)

[Tableview]

Isn't the answer, as in so many things in life, to work with the spotters, rather than against?

I would work with the authorities towards setting up a proper safe demarcated area, charge a nominal fee (50p) for using it, which would cover refuse collection, and make more money from a refreshment facility. If you make people feel useful and wanted (Luton - last post) they will usually respond positively.

[Westlakejawa]

Your first sentence sums up the whole problem.Most airfields recognize an area where most spotters congregate,and seem to accept the situation.There are a couple of major airports in the U.K where they appear to not tolerate spotters at all,altho'one has a "visitors centre" which will be usless when the planted trees reach maturity(why did the tree planting stop just as it reached the edge of a certain well known hotel who advertize views over the airfield).With the cost as the consistant policing,would it not be possibly as cheap to designate an area where the majority would gather,and then concentrate on the 'loose cannons'who decide they know better(and yes i accept there are some).

[walterthesofty]

I think dedicated spotter pens are an answer, That way these characters can do what ever it is they do without creating serious safety hazards/ getting under the feet of those who have work to perform or cause inconvinence to the travelling public , levy a fair charge, say a tenner a day, and everyones a winner

[Tableview]

A tenner a day is probably enough to put some people off using the dedicated area, and all that will achieve is spreading them over a wider area as they seek places where they can park without paying, which is why I suggested a nominal charge.

[DaveReidUK]

There are a couple of major airports in the U.K where they appear to not tolerate spotters at all, altho' one has a "visitors centre"

If you're referring to Heathrow, the Visitor Centre there closed more than two years ago. The only concession to enthusiasts nowadays is a rather odd "grandstand" which offers only a marginally better view than standing at ground level.

It beggars belief that the operators of one of the world's largest international airports can't get their heads around the idea that, like it or not, people are going to want to come and look at the aircraft landing and taking off, and that providing them with at least some basic facilities (say a cafe, or as a minimum, loos) might actually be good for the corporate image.

[NutLoose]

No prob from me as an Aircraft Engineer, in fact some police encourage them to help if they spot something suspicious, known to do a bit myself as a friend working nearby is one, so I call him if I see anything interesting taxing past. I must admit I have seen some anal security, had a Libyian 225 come in many moons ago and a spotter was standing on his steps to takes some pictures over the fence from a carpark, I was standing the other side airside also with a Camera.. And this security guy was trying to get shot of him, he can get over the fence etc... Blahh blah blahh ( 10 foot from it at least!) so I chirped in saying where is he going to go, there are six of us this side of the fence, so let the guy take his pictures as it's taxying, he will be happy and on his way and you won't be spending the rest of the afternoon chasing him from different spots.. Sense prevailed he got his shots thanked me and the security bod and left happy.... Not rocket science is it?

[walterthesofty]

Whatever you charge some of these types will always try to avoid paying which is why robust action by the police is required to reinforce the point airports are not spotter playgrounds

[Skipness One Echo]

I think dedicated spotter pens are an answer, That way these characters can do what ever it is they do without creating serious safety hazards/ getting under the feet of those who have work to perform or cause inconvinence to the travelling public , levy a fair charge, say a tenner a day, and everyones a winner
Whatever you charge some of these types will always try to avoid paying which is why robust action by the police is required to reinforce the point airports are not spotter playgrounds
walterthesofty / kevlarcarl / simonchowder / mutiple alias man, what's your beef?
What action upsets you so? Can you give an honest example of a real safety hazard that a spotter has caused recently? Most airports have crash gates well marked and Police patrols. The occasional blockage nowadays is just family and kids. Given your loathing of spotters, and your continued presence in Spotters Corner, one can only assume some trauma. Did mummy leave daddy, assuming you know him, for a spotter? Scarred you for life did it? You need to forgive heal and move on sir, you'll live longer. There, there!

[PIK3141]

Must be terribly confusing for you when the 'spotters' are actually policemen.
Perhaps best if you just stay at home, and off the internet.

[MackMeeter]

Well I was a spotter once, and still am, proud of it....though my spotting does tend to attract ridicule from some of my colleagues in the crew room. I'm very lucky in that my job is also my hobby, and long may it continue.

I walked around Yeadon airport's (as was) perimeter fence with my Dad when I was a lad, listening to ATC on my transistor radio I got for my my birthday. Or even in my pushchair I can recall family days out at Manchester airport (my older brother's spotting being of olympic standards, his anorak being ermine lined, whereas mine was just a standard issue) walking out onto the piers at Manchester and being able to look down into the flightdecks of aeroplanes and wonder what it'd be like...

Well now I know, and as I taxy past in my nice (sometimes not so shiny) A320 and see the spotters opposite T1 hold on 23L at Manchester at 7am, I marvel at their dedication as it by far surpassed mine...I only get up that early because I get paid for it!

But next time lads, if we wave first, please return the complement, even the ATCOs at RAF stations used to wave back!

[bosnich71]

I felt intimidated when I was stationed at St.Athan !

[mathers_wales_uk]

Cardiff Airport itself has a great area for watching aircraft and that is located southside of the airfield "Rhoose Flying Club". You can see most areas of the airport and is recognised by the airport with some management ocasionally taking their children down there and having a chat with the regulars about various things.

Although this great facility and other excellent viewing points exist you will still see families parking illegally near the perimiter fence on a roundabout either waving relatives off or just taking a look at the arriving aircraft. Several vehicles are supplied either with a summons or a ticket every year.

The regular enthusiasts on the other hand obide and respect the law as they do not wish to jepordise their hobby.

I totally understand why the police in general find enthusiasts as a useful weapon when it comes to their fight against crime as they are actually more likely to spot suspicious activity before the police or airport security will while on their patrols.

No my take on it is if the enthusiasts are not on private property without permission, are not causing a nuisance or damage then they should be left to do what they love doing. This is why the article which I brought to your attention at the beginning of this thread is such a shock.

[airsmiles]

I went to Cardiff Airport once on the way to my a weekend away, but not being local I wouldn't have thought to use the Flying Club for 20 minutes shufty to see what was going on.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Flying Club are doing a great thing encouraging spotters but I wouldn't have thought of it.

[filthyrichandcatflap]

I think dedicated spotter pens are an answer, That way these characters can do what ever it is they do without creating serious safety hazards/ getting under the feet of those who have work to perform or cause inconvinence to the travelling public , levy a fair charge, say a tenner a day, and everyones a winner

I think you need to get out more my friend ...

[DaveReidUK]

I think you need to get out more my friend ...

Maybe take up aircraft spotting ? :rolleyes:

[Lukeafb1]

Dave,

I've often wondered why the 'Grandstand' at LHR is placed where it is, behind two lines of growing trees and the fence! But sometimes its absolutely crowded, despite, as you say, only being about 4 feet above the ground.

I don't know whether you have seen it recently, but there now is a cafe ('Cafe Chi') 100 yards from the grandstand, built in the last 2 months, primarily for the occupants of Word Business Centre buildings, but the 'spotters' can use it if they want.

However, since there are no parking facilities nearby, there is sometimes a problem with parking on double yellow lines.

[bobward]

I hesitate to jump in here, but what the hell....;)

I've been an aviation enthusiast since the 1960's. As I grew older, and got to retiring age I had visions of spending the odd day in my dotage watching aircraft. Living in Norfolk, we had a surfeit of riches close to hand. For example, Coltishall, Wattisham, Bentwaters, Woodbridge, and Honington were an hour away. Travel for a bit longer and there were Alconbury, Wyton (Shhh!), Upper Heyford, Cottesmore and Wittering as alternatives.

Anyone spot a trend here? In these cash-strapped times, there are so few places to go, civil airports are fast becoming the few places where enthusiasts can see any sort of aircraft. Those on the inside are, in the main, ambivalent to spotters. A few have 'firm' views, as stated earlier. That's fine, as everyone has a right to their own opinion.

However, please bear in mind that the majority of us, through taxes or fares, pay for a large part of the aviation in this country. Pleas treat us with a little tolerance instead of the contempt that has surfaced in a couple of the posts here.....

[Lukeafb1]

Bobward,

I think your last post was very insensitive!

I served at four of the bases you mentioned and they've all gone (including Shhh!). It makes me feel like a dinosaur!! ;);:{

[bobward]

As a fellow dinosaur 'd guess we're both pteradactyls together????

Apologies to all for any slight you might have felt - purely unintentional on my part.

As a lifelong fast jet fan I'm now 'forced' to watch airliners and stuff.....whilst I wait for those nice people in white coats to bring my medication.:sad::confused::uhoh:

[washingtondave]

Don't understand why some have an axe to grind with people who enjoy watching planes. Some countries take positive steps to allow people to do so. As an example, at the northern perimeter of Zurich airport, there is a large free parking area served by refreshment vans where anyone can enjoy aircraft approaching runways 14 and 16. And if you are prepared to walk a short distance, you can even look through the fence down the length of runway 14.

There is also another facility allowing great viewing of departures on runways 16 and 28. Why are the Swiss more tolerant than most UK airports?

[spottilludrop]

Spotter harassment is a popular sport at UK airports, lost count of the number of times i have received abuse from people who should know better

[Cunliffe]

Reminds me of some friends of a friend who were spotting in southern USA. Just settled down in the long grass just outside the fence when a patrol car pulls up. They were expecting to be moved on but the officer said " I don't mind you sitting there but the snakes might get a bit unfriendly".

[Planemike]

There is also another facility allowing great viewing of departures on runways 16 and 28. Why are the Swiss more tolerant than most UK airports?

Enlightened people, not blighted with a "security" paranoia.............???

Planemike