Qantas & Emirates Partnership from April 2013

[j636]

QANTAS and Emirates (http://www.qantasandemirates.com/index.html)

Qantas drop BA joint venture.

Qantas cancel FRA services and LHR service moves from Singapore to Dubai, however both carriers will still operate 7 daily A380 flights to LHR.

[PAXboy]

As they say "subject to regulatory approval" but, may I suggest, that if this goes ahead, it's a game changer for more than just BA.

Some serious money has been on the move ...

[EISNN]

Now that has thrown out some interesting food for thought. Will QF pull from oneWorld? How will it affect Chiangi operation over all? If QF don't operate there will BA continue to operate there and continue to SYD or just cancel their operation and connect instead through HKG or NRT? How many other airlines will move towards the 'sandpit' with the allure and money power of the very rich airlines? No doubt a bit of a blow to BA but QF probably made the right decision.

[ib26uk]

Just read a massive thread on another airline website and my head is spinning now !!

It is my understanding that subject to regulatory approval from April 2013 there will be no more London Heathrow to Singapore flights ??

Qantas will operate 2x a day A380 flights from London Heathrow to Dubai and then on to Sydney/Melbourne ?? Aswell as Emirates having their 5x A380 flights a day to Dubai...

[jabird]

Very interesting, but this gives them access to all the regional UK airports too, which might well add up to more value than FRA?

What about PER? And how many of the DXB - SYD / MEL runs will be non-stop?

[goldeneye]

After reading some of this on other sites EK seems to be the big winner on this, QF don't really seem to gain much out of this.

I'm guessing BA will now be looking at a JV with CX now as they do seem to have an excellent route network from HKG into Australia.

[crewmeal]

The BBC's understanding is QF will pull out from alliances with BA, which will mean loosing One World.

BBC News - Qantas forms Emirates alliance as it seeks turnaround (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19498374)

Now does this mean the LHR base will close? Will QF come off the LHR HKG route? No mention of that anywhere. I guess it means more options for flyers from the regions to choose to fly QF/EK via DXB. Surely this can only be good news for them.

[goldeneye]

QF are to remain in OW, They also have not operated LHR to HKG for about two years now. Also QF will continue to London albeit via DXB opposed to SIN.

Other option for BA is a JV with MH once it joins OW.

[ManaAdaSystem]

QF divorced from BA and moving flights from SIN to DXB.
Comments?

[Romulus]

After reading some of this on other sites EK seems to be the big winner on this, QF don't really seem to gain much out of this.

QF get a full service international partner who wears the majority of the risk associated with an international airline business who also bring a reputation for excellence in service to load all their domestic fliers onto for overseas trips.

[DaveReidUK]

No real surprise there.

[ZFT]

It was less than 6 months ago when British Airways cut down on its direct flights to Australia after axing its service from London to Sydney via Bangkok. BA now terminates at BKK with passengers wishing to fly on to Australia transferring to QF.

Under the current agreement, QF also stops in Bangkok and transfers passengers for LHR onto BA flights.

Seem to recall both carriers got rid of a lot of local staff too.Will be interesting to see if BA restarts the service.

[Andu]

Fatty will be in crisis talks with his creditors.

I suppose Fatty's loss will be Ravi's gain.

[BlackandBrown]

A very wise move in my opinion.

[ETOPS]

Watch out for a whole raft of changes from BA next year.

Some or all of these may come true........

Leave T3 at LHR. The BKK and SIN/SYD services only operate from there because of the JBA, thus retraction to T5 almost certain.

Restart operating to MEL. The "tagless" BKK service could easily extend to MEL as a stopgap whilst future plans are sorted.

Restart AKL. Your choice - over LAX or maybe KUL?

Order the B747-8i to operate Far east services that the A380 is too big for. (And 787 too small)

[Omnipresent]

Leave T3 at LHR. The BKK and SIN/SYD services only operate from there because of the JBA, thus retraction to T5 almost certain.

Restart operating to MEL. The "tagless" BKK service could easily extend to MEL as a stopgap whilst future plans are sorted.

Restart AKL. Your choice - over LAX or maybe KUL?

Order the B747-8i to operate Far east services that the A380 is too big for. (And 787 too small)

BKK/SIN may move to T5, but there's not a chance of BA restarting MEL. It was pulled because of poor performance years ago. AKL is already covered via a codeshare with Cathay Pacific from HKG.

It's not clear yet whether BA codeshares with Qantas from SIN will remain. Though as Qantas has said these services are to be retimed, the connections may not be competitive.

[ETOPS]

but there's not a chance of BA restarting MEL. It was pulled because of poor performance years ago.

Aahh - so "poor performance years ago" is the arbiter of future performance?

[Dai Brainbocs]

Will this see BA cut back on its Australia services? Been several times on single tickets including some BA international legs + Qantas internal flights and it has always worked well. BA standalone into Australia becomes much less attractive for obvious reasons of jeopardising onward internal flights if you miss a connection.

[Omnipresent]

Aahh - so "poor performance years ago" is the arbiter of future performance?

The economics of the route haven't changed. One rotation ties up a single aircraft for three days. Hence why airlines at either end of the route have been gradually pulling out of Europe-Australia.

It's unlikely BA will return to a route it has already dropped twice before and no longer has a local partner to support it.

[jabird]

Your choice - over LAX or maybe KUL?

If (big if) that was to happen, surely KUL any day. From a simple SLF perspective, wonderful airport with its own internal rainforest! For practicalities, not TSA processing just to transit - doh!

For yield, KUL is a key Asian city in its own right + connections if MH joining one world. IIRC, doing the Kangaroo that way at present on MH involves around a 7 hour layover (not such a bad thing considering above!).

Noting BA have gone into ICN over any new Chinese cities, sniffing the higher incomes there.

[Calmcavok]

I wonder if this is the final nail in the coffin for BA's kangaroo route. With the gulf carriers having swamped the EU-ME-AUS routes, can BA ever compete effectively again on any route down under, standing alone? And would they want to?

[jabird]

can BA ever compete effectively again on any route down under, standing alone? And would they want to?

Can anyone comment on front of cabin yields on these routes? Oz economy seems to be cooling off a bit. For cattle, people regularly gripe about the costs, then you ask them to remove the exorbitant APD and divide the price by the distance travelled.

Given the extra crewing requirements for the double leg, there must be other places in Asia or S America (BOG / SCL?) that can generate an easier return?

[ARNSpoty]

vise move indeed

[EI-BUD]

I cannot see BA giving up the Sydney route too easily, once upon a time up to late 80s they served a host of Australian destinations including Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth, Melbourne.

They are also unlikely to walk away and leave the London Sydney route to Virgin (as the other British carrier on the route).

If QF come out of OW that may have a material effect and encourage BA to stay put but as I say cannot see it coming.

[Calmcavok]

From an emotive sense, it would be a huge shame for BA to pull out of Oz. However, a single daily flight to SYD burns a load of crew hours and the a/c sits in SYD for 10 1/2 hours before starting back, not efficient. From most European gateways, and UK regions, to all major Oz cities it is now only one stop via the gulf. Can BA charge enough of a premium and have 2 stops (for those not originating at LHR) to continue to make it a viable alternative to EK/EY/QR?

[Skipness One Echo]

They are also unlikely to walk away and leave the London Sydney route to Virgin (as the other British carrier on the route).
Given that no other European carrier can make it work, I would be surprised if it's one of their best routes.

[ETOPS]

Well I've been operating LHR - SYD for many years (both via SIN & BKK) and can easily tell what the loads are like - full both ways :ok:

As to yield, if you phone Waterside and ask for RevMan.................


they won't tell you either!!

[Aksai Oiler]

Is there any chance BA may restart MEL and PER ? or will the competition be too great from EK/QF ?

[Peter47]

Is it confirmed that QF will remain in OW? I can't see them wanting to lose all that AA feed at LAX.

If they are remaining presumably One World tickets will still be sold on the Kangeroo route which - useful if you wish to stopover at say HKG on the way out & SIN on the way back. Then there are OW RTW fares.

Could BA / QF make a separate agreement covering tickets for local transport within Oz / Europe as part of multi stop itinerarys? Of course there's always Trailfinders.

As mentioned BA currently codesgare with CX to AKL (in competition with CX all the way) so I would imagine that doing the same to MEL / BNE would be possible. Same applies with MH if BA were to fly to KUL.

[clipstone1]

QF have said they're staying in OW, however it will mean that the BA and QF flights will be available as competing flights are differing prices, where as generally they're at the same price currently (depending upon load sold at time of booking)

Thus I would expect that you will still book a QF to MEL as a BA codeshare...

[PAXboy]

Looks like the start of the next change to to the Hub-n-Spoke. The big international hubs move and carriers Meet-n-Swap in the middle.

At first, some carriers will continue with their own end-to-end on the very long hauls to keep market share and reduce risk of bagagge loss with the change.

Then they will find that their costs and prices are much higher and they are losing market share.

So they make similar agreements.

Within 10 years, VERY few of the very/ultra long hauls will operate with single a/c all the way through.

Just a thought. :E

[Andy_S]

Interestingly, there was a report in the Financial Times a few days ago to the effect that BA were in discussions with QR reference possible co-operation in the Asia-Pacific region.

[BCALBOY]

AndyS

Strong rumours in recent weeks ,that BA will sponsor QR into OW with
announcement within a couple of weeks.

QR has been epanding OZ services, e.g. PER added in recent months.

QR are behind EK and EY in the OZ market but BA traffic would help address that.

Presumption is that BA wud move some of traffic currently routed via QF codeshare on to QR.

Have no doubt BA will continue to serve SIN - i think the majority of high yield traffic on the Kangaroo route is on LHR/SIN/LHR , while OZ provides the volume in economy but at low yield.Plus QF must have carried some point to point LHR/SIN/LHR trffic which will be up for grabs when they terminate the segment.

The SIN/SYD /SIN legs require utilise the equiv of one hull , so it must be tempting for BA to scrap this and use the aircraft to do a daily return elsewhere.

Whether BA would maintain 2 SIN terminators , I don-t know .
They could for e.g. do 1 SIN terminator and 1 KUL terminator and tie this in with MH services to OZ. On the other hand given SQ freq on SIN , 1 a day would make them a very minor player on a fairly key route.
Or they could keep 2 SIN terminators and add KUL terminator as well partially resourced by pulling SIN/SYD.

In summary , BA/ could scrap SIN/SYD leg and route OZ traffic on a combination of MH via KUL and QR via DOH and ditch QF altogether.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

[AircraftOperations]

If QF are going to reroute their flights from Australia, from SIN to DXB, to connect with EK, how will this affect what they can operate and carry? SYD-DXB is 2x as far as SYD-SIN, and further than SIN-LHR. Can a 747 or A380 make money on the route? No 787s, remember. Do EK make money on their current routings to/from Oz with their 777s/A380s/A340s, some of which don't go direct?