RAF Antonov charter

[dermedicus]

Tornados from RAF Marham deploying to the Middle East on Exercise (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/exercise-shaheen-star-04092012)

A genuine question. Has it always been necessary for the RAF, as an expeditionary air force, to rely on a civilian contracted aircraft in order to deploy as per this article?

I had imagined that the RAF would maintain its own independent deployment capability, including heavy-lift transport etc. Is this a new thing due to cuts or has it always been the case for exercices, rather than military operations?

[BEagle]

Big, and mean really big Russian aircraft are a common sight at Brize.

Indeed. The An-124 Ruslan is a frequent visitor and the 6-engined An-225 Mriya has also visited.

The Il-76 used to be reasonably common; however, as the C-17 force strength has built up, they're not often seen now.

[Trim Stab]

Big, and mean really big Russian aircraft are a common sight at Brize.


Ukrainian actually.

[SOSL]

Not always - think Ferry Command during WW2 followed by Transport Command and Air Support Command, then 38 Group.

Think Armstrong Whitworth Argosy, Short Belfast, Blackburn Beverley and currently C130, C17, Chinook etc...

But, of course, current heavy lift assets need to be beefed up by hiring in other assets when necessary.

Rgds SOS

[Courtney Mil]

Quite a common sight in ASI and MPA too.

http://d121tcdkpp02p4.cloudfront.net/clim/92018/Antonov-124-at-Ascension.jpg

And HeavyLift at Coningsby shipping F3s with the wings off to MPA.

http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/2000/antonov/touchdownsm.JPG

[PTR 175]

Heavy Lift were used during the Falklands conflict to move items down to ASI. The 'Bel Slow' was used due to its ability to take long items that would not fit into a LWB C130 that are particularly usefull to the Navy.

I have been deployed to Norway in a Norwegen C130 because the RAF was short of AT at the time.

When the Fighting First deployed to Nellis AFB in the 90s most of the kit went out in two 727 Freighters.

So no, nothing new.

[Pontius Navigator]

Transport Command and Air Support Command, then 38 Group.

Think Armstrong Whitworth Argosy, Short Belfast, Blackburn Beverley and currently C130, C17, Chinook etc...

No, even back in the mid-60s we used British United to deploy on a Sunspot to Malta. Bomber Command was late with its booking to Transport Command and they were fully committed.

Similarly, during the Vietnam war the US used civair to rotate troops to theatre. I think the Soviets also pressed Aeroflot in to service with their Germany troop rotations.

While most military transport services have huge capacity it is inevitably limited. It would be grossly inefficient if it had sufficient capacity to meet peak demand.

[Tankertrashnav]

British Eagle Britannias did the regular trooping flights to the Far East until RAF VC10s took over the job c 1967/68.

Brandy sours all the way when I flew out to Singapore in 1967, ASC orange squash and coffee on the way home in 1969 :(

[Easy Street]

The US used vast amounts of civilian air transport during GW1 and 2. There's nothing new here, and as has been said, it would be wrong if always done in house. Mil AT is needed for places that civ air cannot or will not go.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mil AT is needed for places that civ air cannot or will not go.

And of course when our overseas air forces had their own in-theatre assets. 70 Sqn used to do practically scheduled runs around the Gulf etc.

[Pontius Navigator]

As a slight aside from this, the RAF used to operate its own Comms Flights. In UK it was the station Annie before being brigaded in to regional comms sqn equipped with a variety of robust aircraft. As these vintage aircraft were retired they were replaced by the Bassett but clearly in smaller numbers.

Costs eventually led to the closure and mere aircrew travelling between units had to go by train. I asked one Nimrod pilot who was leaving to take up a job as an air taxi pilot how much it would cost. "The RAF couldn't afford it".

Moving on 10 years the air taxi service was used almost daily to ferry F4 and F3 crews up and down the east coast or to Warton. VIPs (down to 1*) also had call on the Squirrel as an air taxi.

I bet that has gone as a cost saver now and replaced with 2nd class rail (or posh staff car :)

[Courtney Mil]

or posh staff car

You mean an Astra!

[BEagle]

Astra? More likely to be a Corsa....

PN, don't forget 207 Sqn which, after the disposal of the largely-useless Basset and the transfer of its Pembrokes to 60 Sqn, provided a useful comms role with its Devons up until 1984.

After which the Devon was replaced by the 125. As in 'Inter City 125'.....:\

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, as I was on a foreign posting at that period I was not aware of 207's role. I don't think they got as far as northern Scotland :)

There were of course the PR Pembrokes in RAFG :)

[Pontius Navigator]

You mean an Astra!

Astra, Corsa or whatever :)

Last I remember seeing was John Pack sitting in the back, a mere Air Cdre at the time, in a huge black Limousine, having his driver reverse at the main gate at Strike so that he could say hello to a couple of us from ISK.

[XV277]

Astra? More likely to be a Corsa....

PN, don't forget 207 Sqn which, after the disposal of the largely-useless Basset and the transfer of its Pembrokes to 60 Sqn, provided a useful comms role with its Devons up until 1984.

After which the Devon was replaced by the 125. As in 'Inter City 125'.....:\

Whilst the RN managed to retain their 'Heron' flight by buying some new Jetstream 'trainers' and then finding a reduced training requirement.

At least until a certain CAS was allegedly most dis-chuffed about being delivered on a visit in an aircraft with 'Royal Navy' plastered along the side.

Some 207 Jetstream 31s would have been nice.....

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC, around the time that the ex-Seeb Air Cdre had been the staish at Coningsby there was a fuss about the Captain's staff car at Yeovilton. I believe a white Omega was delivered but he wanted it in maroon so had it resprayed.

At the same time OC Cgy took delivery of a maroon one I suggested they should have swapped. :}

Senior Officers (and not so senior officers) vanity must cost the tax payer a fortune.

[Milo Minderbinder]

At least one Belfast reached Yeovilton during the Falklands war - as I drove past one day one (in Heavylift colours) was having a Sea King winched into it.

Next day a Lynx was being loaded into what looked from the rear like a Belfast painted in green / black camouflage - but as supposedly all had been mothalled except the two (?) in service with Heavylift, I ended up rather confused. It didn't look right for a C-130
Were any overseas aircraft borrowed?

All this was clearly visible from the road - they were parked between the Museum and main gate, near the water tower

[SOSL]

Hi PN. Quite agree with your post #8, but in the 60's we weren't really an expeditionary Air Force (see o.p.). Much earlier and much later we were.

We have always used some civilian assets for ferrying troops around. I was thinking of kit.

Sorry I didn't really make myself clear.

When I was at Wyt in 73/74 I remember 26 was our Comms Sqn - ISTR they had Devons and a couple of JPs.

They had retired their Bassets after the crash at Valley and at the same time we enclaved the whole Station into AVGAS areas and AVTUR areas. Woe betide anyone who crossed the boundary!

We also had a couple of Canberra T4s most used for CT but also very useful for ferrying giant salmon from Norway just before the summer ball.

Thread drift and post drift but I remember a Canberra at Wyt caught fire on our pan during re-fuelling. Bowser was hooked up to the upwind wing, hose suffered fire damage, hence fuel and flames driven under aircraft to the downwind wing. Nasty fire. Funny thing; Huntingdon Fire Crews arrived at the scene before the Station fire crews

Sometime in the following century I had a buddy in Joint Helicopter Command who kindly organized a couple of taxi trips to Culdrose in Gazelles driven by reservists on CT.

Happy days

Rgds SOS

[Courtney Mil]

Milo,

I don't think the Belfast was ever seen in camoflage colours. I'm making that assumption based on the fact that the only Air Force that ever operated them was the RAF and those wold have been in Transport Command white with blue stripe.

By the time the Falklands came along, HeavyLift owned them (most of them - there were only 10 to start with) and it was theirs that we leased back in their colours.

[Pontius Navigator]

Hi PN. Quite agree with your post #8, but in the 60's we weren't really an expeditionary Air Force (see o.p.). Much earlier and much later we were.

SOSL, not really. You could not get more expedtionary than Operation Althorpe in 1964. Sqn after sqn flowed down the route to Malaysia and beyond. While we had an operational priority we got the ST. For exercises we were much lower down the pecking order, much as the OP said. For exercises we had second call on ST so had to hire in civair.

Now of course the situation is the same. Operations get our own assets for the reasons stated previously and exercises get what is available or civair.

[A and C]

The Comms flight capability for the RAF is now provided by the RAFFCA clubs with some senior officers preferring to use flying club aircraft rather than enduring long road journeys.

[Courtney Mil]

Not just senior officers. Quite a few of my guys at HQ 11 and HQ 1 Gp used to claim the equivalent road milage to go to statins by piloting themselves. A good scheme all round, I think.

[ralphmalph]

Thank god for the Antonov!

Relying on AT is just no way to do business.

We spent three weeks in Kenya waiting for 7 failed attempts to get a C17 and our Lynx out to Nairobi.

In the end we cancelled the aviation support to the exercise and went home.

Low priority, I get it. Four out of the five times the aircraft were taken off the C17 to re-role for priority kit for Afghanistan.

Antonov, there every time, on time.

The frustration comes when dealing with the bean counters.....they don't commit to Antonov because "it costs too much" and then when things fall over/exercises and pre deployment training fails.....it's costs a lot more in training lost and manpower wasted!

Plus.....Antonov operators know exactly how many Lynx they can fit on their aircraft. The same cannot be said for Brize......

"you know those 4 Lynx you had booked for the last 7 weeks to fly to Nairobi tomorrow"

"yes"

"we have made a mistake, we can only fit three on, and half your freight"

"ooohhh k"

"so can you let us know now what is absolutely essential to compete your exercise!"

Not very helpful for pre-deployment training 7 weeks prior to going to Afghanistan.

Just book the Antonov and stop pretending we can do everything!

[Courtney Mil]

Well said, Ralph. Similar experiences and thoughts here!

[Courtney Mil]

...addition.

Do HeavyLift still have their Antanov?

[Pontius Navigator]

Looking at their website they mention Belslow but not Antonov. I thought the Antonov was only leased.

I know at one point when they were getting new aircraft that the existing crews were looking forward to converting to them. Heavylift didn't work like the RAF. New aircraft - new crews. Why convert old aircrew and then have to recruit new aircrew to replace them on the old aircraft.

[Milo Minderbinder]

apparently not

or at least its not listed at
HeavyLift International Airlines | Our Fleet (http://www.heavyliftfreight.com/our-fleet.htm)
or
HeavyLift Cargo Airlines (http://heavyliftcargo.com/)

the first just shows DC8s
the second Belfasts & 727s

[Courtney Mil]

I guess it's a very diverse fleet to run. Market forces will be their driver.

[BEagle]

Not just senior officers. Quite a few of my guys at HQ 11 and HQ 1 Gp used to claim the equivalent road milage to go to stations by piloting themselves. A good scheme all round, I think

I managed this once - every other time the weather was too poor for my IMC rating....

On another occasion, I was 'asked' whether I wouldn't mind 'offering' to fly a couple of senior officers up to Newcastle, stay overnight and bring them back on Sunday..... I now know that this was pretty close to 'illegal public transport', if not actually so.

Anyway, after convincing them that Acklington was, in fact, no longer open and was now an open cast coal mine, 3 of us in the mighty PA28, plus their baggage set off on the first leg to Gamston as I couldn't (legally) put in enough fuel to get all the way to Woolsington. All went fine; I landed, paid for the fuel and landing fee and prepared for the next leg.

Except that the little bugger wouldn't start. Even the folk from Gamston couldn't get it going.... Fortunately the Gp Capt and Wg Cdr were very good about it and grabbed a taxi to the nearest railway station to carry on their journey. I was stuck with the u/s puddlejumper, so spoke to the maintenance people who said that they would check it out, but couldn't release the aircraft until they'd checked with our maintenance people the following day. An expensive night in an hotel in Retford and then off I went the next day with a new impulse magneto. Miserable weather on the way home and Brize ATC made me orbit at 400 ft in rain and mist whilst some TriShaw lumbered its way in from 30 miles away.....

I Learned About Flying From That!

[Courtney Mil]

And there I was thinking the old milage allowance for flying was a good deal. I was going to say that it was a bit of a bunce towards paying for the trip whilst the pilot got some help towards his hours. Didn't work out on that occassion. Bad luck, I guess. Still, better than an Astra.

Courtney

[Tankertrashnav]

An Astra? We dreamt about Astras! (or we would have if they had been around then).

Was once "volunteered" with one of our squadron co-pilots to drive the squadron mini van from Marham to Leuchars for a tanker deployment. What at first seemed like a jolly wheeze rapidly lost its appeal as we flogged endlessly up the A1 at around 50mph in an 850cc unsoundproofed tin can.

45 minutes transit in a Victor seemed a much better prospect - if somewhat heavier on the fuel.

[dermedicus]

Many thanks for the answers, insights and anecdotes. I appreciate your time.

[VP8]

Heavylift per se do not exist anymore....

Antonov Operators

Antonov Company (Antonov Design Bureau)
Volga Dnepr
Polet
Maximus
Libyan Arab Air Cargo

And the Russian Air Force occasionally on charters.

The upgraded ones are now capable of carrying 150,000kgs

PS If you want to charter one I can get you a good deal:ok:

[Doctor Cruces]

Courtney,

The Heavylift in existence now is not the Heavylift we knew. It went out of business some years ago after the joint stock partners, VDA dissolved the partnership and took all the Antonovs and IL76s just leaving the ageing and getting harder and more expensive to maintain Belslows.

Didn't last long after that.


Doc C

[Whopity]

The Comms flight capability for the RAF is now provided by the RAFFCA clubs with some senior officers preferring to use flying club aircraft Sounds like illegal public transport! They tried it at Brize until Beags pointed out it was illegal.

[Nomorefreetime]

Nothing to do with Brize the week before you fly. Someone at the unit involved would have bid for aircraft space 3 months out, they would have been given an answer 2 months out e.g 'you can only have 1 aircraft instead of the 2 you require'. 7 weeks later you turn up at Brize expecting 2 and they are not available.Every unit who bids for space on an aircraft will know what they have been given long before. The only exception would be frames taken away due to 'Ops and servicability issues'. Been there, seen it, done it, gone to charter.