what do you expect from p2f?

[screwit]

a paid job?

you must really fix your head, who will give you a paid job when the market is filled with idiotic pilots who pay airlines to fly their aircraft.


are you dumb? or uneducated European citizen who don't know what economy means....

buy your self a 320 simulator and go play the pilot.

better:get a normal job and start to feed yourself correctly....

[windforce]

are you dumb? or uneducated European citizen who don't know what economy means....

are you frustrated about something? why uneducated european people!? it's quite funny how the concept of p2f has got deep roots in america (and still widely used too) and very popular in SE Asia, yet it is always 'blame someone else' and forget reality.

like most of people here i do not support p2f, quite the opposite.

But let's be honest about it: p2f wasn't invented few days ago, but in the very late 90s! because of LCCs expansion and more recently the weak economy (i'm pretty sure people would blame europe for this) p2f agencies, type rating organisations and airlines themselves have simply capitalised on it... it has become a very lucrative business!

and whose fault is that? everyone's! all pilots are responsible (including myself) for letting this phenomenon devolping and growing! It should have been stopped very long time ago but everyone was too busy enjoying themself... living the dream without thinking/looking after the future generations.

and now? it's too late, not many options at this stage. The whole industry need an overhaul, starting back from basics... it's the attitude of 'everyone can fly today, from c152 to big shiny jet, as cheap as possible, epaulettes/uniform syndrome, get rich overnight etc etc' and all this bollocks that have to go! then maybe people would stop paying/cheating to 'jump the queue'!

you're right, peope should work. Earn their experience (respect and money) then step-by-step moving up, not p2f. But we need first to understandep why the :mad: we are in this situation and how to move on.. insulting new (desperate) pilots will not solve anything.


PS. before flying the 320, I spent years as flight instructor and more recently as flight examiner. Several times i've been told my SE or ME piston hours (1700+ TT) were worthless... that i need jet time and so on... it took me nearly 5 years of :mad: hard work (and luck of course) to land a proper jet job.

[galaxy flyer]

Check your history--P2F has zero roots in the USA. Not a chief pilot anywhere would accept someone with the background. I ve been in US GA and airlines, done hiring boards and I pretty sure I know whereof I speak. It's fine to acquire the FAA license, but not pay to fly. Gulfstream was one until their grads started killing people.

[screwit]

P2f is not authorized in USA.... Not in part 121&135

Explain me why? Did the faa say it s illegal to sell line training and turn an airline to a freaking flight school.... ;-)

[No RYR for me]

P2f is not authorized in USA.... Not in part 121&135

Haha it was invented there... Eagle Jet have been selling 727/Be1900 etc hours in the US for years!

[No RYR for me]

It's fine to acquire the FAA license, but not pay to fly.

Sorry but it looks like it is still there: Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/programs.htm) :uhoh:

[screwit]

no Ryanair you are right.it was created by ej 15years ago.when the faa knew it they put some conditions with INS.and at the end it was only on single pilot airplane which make your double command time useless.this eagle doesn't explain you....

a few airlines have tried but lost their certificate at the end.guys behind p2f are crooks....the whole industry is run by lies,scams,...if you don't see it its because you are still a momy boy.:-) dreaming yo fly a big jet....

[EMB-145LR]

Check your history--P2F has zero roots in the USA. Not a chief pilot anywhere would accept someone with the background. I ve been in US GA and airlines, done hiring boards and I pretty sure I know whereof I speak. It's fine to acquire the FAA license, but not pay to fly. Gulfstream was one until their grads started killing people.


I am an airline pilot at a very well known US regional and have previously worked in recruitment for a number of airlines. You are completely wrong, Ameriflight, through EagleJet, offer Part 135 P2F courses on almost all of their fleet. I had the misfortune to fly with a 'graduate' of such a programme only a few months ago, he was hopeless. P2F is still alive and kicking in the good ol' U S of A....unfortunately.

[screwit]

a fa make more than a fo.
even toilet cleaner or baggage handlers makes more than one of these traitors of p2f .
they call themselves flight officer....after 6months ground officer or unemployed officer lol

you can be anything in this world as long you pay people to do a job which suppose to be paid.you can even become an airline plot.

when I say this to my friends, they simply don't believe me...only in cinema and aviation you see these lower than ..... bags.

[AlexanderH]

Screwit

If you're going to use the English language to raise your issues at least use it properly.

[windforce]

Check your history--P2F has zero roots in the USA

are you sure about this? 1996, eaglejet in Miami ring any bells?

another question for all pilots. What were we doing when p2f was becoming a major threat to out T&Cs? and what about the various pilot unions?!

it's a disgrace nothing serious has been done to kill p2f. There's no point on blaming those kids who just completed their licences... what option do they have when most of the airlines want TR + 500hrs on type as a minimum to even apply?! the problem has to be sorted at the root!

[screwit]

that's absolutely correct.500h just to apply. doesn't mean you get the job,instead you will be,maybe,invited for a selection with 100 other desperate pilots looking for the position ,and these monkeys are even ready to pay more money just to get the job.

in fact , this is is a farce...some guys will say they can get a job in Saudi or else, oh please stop the crap,they don't hire guys with 500h from Europe and if they do ,it s guys who have double nationality...

why do you think they went from national to jaa then to easa...in 5 years they will change the system again... faa in contrary Is still here after 100 years. I have both.

even my friends are all converting to FAA to get a job.really you guys make me laugh with your 500h jet time And you can not even get decent job in a fast food....and the worse,is your persist to believe there will be a pilot shortage and an airline will offer you a paid position.just look how you have been brainwashed by this euro dream which has made you just an unemployed pilots or pay to fly monkey.

[MCDU2]

When I was starting out on my training many moons ago there were various p2f adverts in the back of the flying mags. All mostly Kingair and small regional jets and using various loopholes in the FAA licensing system. From memory they involved a small hourly payment by the wannabe. No work permit required as you weren't technically employed since you didn't get paid. Also if memory serves me right you didn't even need a type nor instrument rating as you could "fly" on the captains privileges. Many europeans got seduced into these schemes not fully understanding the implications for legally logging hours without a type rating.

Oh and all in the good ole US of A. In fact Florida mainly.

[Guy of Gisborne]

It doesn't matter where this started, it's wrong, pure and simple. Any clown can be an airline pilot nowadays as long as he's stupid enough to put himself or his parents into £90,000 of debt! I fly as a captain on a med-heavy jet and witnessed varying levels of ability but even the worst UK mil pilot is better than most civvy trained guys. This penny pinching regard to training and the airlines washing their hands of all training costs will bite back. I don't want to see deaths due to pilot error but it seems that is what it will take for this problem to be looked at by the powers that be.

[Artie Fufkin]

I fly as a captain on a med-heavy jet and witnessed varying levels of ability but even the worst UK mil pilot is better than most civvy trained guys.

I'll call bull**** on that!

I fly as captain on medium jets and work for a very enlightened employer who takes its FO intake from a wide variety of backgrounds.

Most ex military guys I fly with are obviously great pilots, but from what I have seen, the greatest variable on quality is the individual, not the background. Putting most civvy pilots behind the worst ex military is a somewhat sweeping statement.

[Guy of Gisborne]

Perhaps I should have added "that I have experienced". Apologies for the generalisation but I can only speak from experience.

[Guy of Gisborne]

I'm not saying the standard of training is poor, it's just it's limited to the basics required. Money is the limiting factor and so a lot of scenarios are never seen until it happens for the first time when pilots are tired and weather is poor.
3 years of daily intensive military training added to the most rigourous selection process will always produce a better product than the bare minimum civilian training required. Especially when selection is based on the fact you have the TR we need right now. Yes I do have a chip on my shoulder and quite rightly so.

[Artie Fufkin]

3 years of daily intensive military training added to the most rigourous selection process will always produce a better product than the bare minimum civilian training required

Disagree.

We obviously have had different experiences of RHS pilots and neither one view should be seen as correct/ incorrect. However, in my experience one or two ex military pilots have been really quite poor. (I don't have anything against ex-mil, as the vast majority are, of course, excellent).

I have seen 200 hour pilots cope better than high experienced military chaps. Would it be fair to say a lot of military training has no use whatsoever in a civilian airline environment? Would it also be fair to say a lot of skills highly prized in, say, military fast jet operations is positively frowned on by airlines?

Like I said earlier, I have seen new FOs from a range of backgrounds and have witnessed a range of talent from each.

I completely agree that any selection system based purely on ability to pay is not good, but I have also seen your quoted assertion above comprehensively disproven.

[Guy of Gisborne]

We've obviously had different experiences and yes you are correct a fast jet jock needs a little more time to get used to letting go of some of the flight deck responsibilities! However, when it comes to hands on flying ability, which I know is hardly required in modern airliners, military pilots are on the whole better. There maybe some aeros civvy guys with similar skills. Before you question the worth of hands on flying remember it increases a pilots capacity if less of his focus is on flying the aircraft. Plus in extreme situations those skills are invaluable.
I apologise that I've turned this thread into a Mil vs Civvy conflict. I'm more concerned about those brilliant military pilots who are leaving the RAF and can't get a place with a civilian outfit due to the current trend of pay to fly recruitment. Yes, they could pay for their own TR but, unlike those cadets, they will be married with kids and no bank of dad to call on.
I wonder if CTC would accept an application from one of them?

[Guy of Gisborne]

Just called CTC and apparently an experienced military pilot is overqualified!!!!!!?

[Poose]

A sore backside... :ooh:

[screwit]

so guys. What do you expect from p2f. a paid job or pay again for another turn.

how much money you are ready to invest in these crazy trainings just to finish unemployed.... 200000, 300000 euro....

This is ridiculous.... hey where are the happy customers? seem they don't have the courage to complain here..... fear to lose face maybe?
;-)

[ppraticallybroke]

Poor Screwit.

I know his frustration well. Maybe he shouldn't have been banned? The wannabe forums don't really serve a purpose. Perhaps letting wannabe victims blow off some steam would be a useful new function?

Once upon a time, all training was paid for. You'd of needed your head read to buy 200 hrs of training for IR. But some of those not good enough to get jobs at the end of that training, bought their way in. And then you'd have had to be insane to buy a rating on a turboprop or something to get experience so someone would rate you on a jet. But those not good enough got daddy to buy them in. And then TR on jets became the norm and those not good enough bought line training courtesy of daddy to get them in. Next those who don't get in with 500 hrs will get daddy to buy 1500 hrs to unfreeze their license and all airlines will ask for that as a minimum. Maybe after that they will demand two ratings so you are flexible. Without legislation it will only get worse because the rich sometimes have dumb kids and they will buy them good jobs. And that's just the way its always been. And whether your daddy is wedged or not, you have to keep up.

I got my license as just after the economy crashed in 2008 and RyanScare and EZ made were the only people recruiting. I didn't risk a TR. Not without a guaranteed job to go to. For a long time I was very depressed. All that money, all that time. Hey it was my 'dream' as much as anyone else's. But I've had more time to 'get over it' and I'm not unhappy I'm not a pilot. I don't want to spend my life worrying that I'll lose my job as fresh money-in-hand wannabes look to buy my seat from under me. I don't want to have my company treat me like dirt because 10,000 other people would start my job tomorrow, I don't want to watch my wages tumble and my T&Cs be a source of personal embarrassment. I don't want a decade of debt.

I just want a dignified, well paid job with some security. I'll fly on the weekend.

I'd have probably made a good pilot. I can make a sound and rational decision in a highly stressful and emotionally charged situation. I'm not sure those who re-mortgage their parents houses as a shot to nothing can.

[pilotchute]

A guy I know who was living in the Middle East (Indian passport holder) finished up at Lion Air a couple of months ago(Eagle Jet scheme). With his line training and one year employment he has clocked up around 1800 hours.

About two months before his contract expired he started sending out CV's and contacting agencies.

KAL-No hope as he doesn't have a 2 year college degree or better.

Hong Kong Airlines-No response

Air Hong Kong-3000 TT required (Not hiring now anyway)

SIA Cargo-No response

Qatar-Not hiring

Gulf Air-Not hiring

Safi Airways-Not enough experience (only response given)

Fly Dubai-2500 hours TT required

Yangtze River Airlines-3000 TT required

You get the idea.

He was told by one agency that most of the clients wouldn't interview someone from Lion Air. Even if they were locals and didn't pay for a job. The standard is just too low and the pilot would have to have considerable remedial training to get to a standard required by most more reputable airlines.
My friend is now worried that his 50K USD will have been wasted. The fact that he has an Indonesian licence and an Indian passport doesn't help (DGCA does not recognise Indonesian quals and hours). He fears it will take months to get the DGCA to issue him with an Indian licence and transfer his 737 type rating (Type rating done in the US but not sure if its DGCA compliant). His Australian licence isn't current and would require him to fly to Australia and spend around 3K AUD to get that current and then he could transfer his type to that licence which wouldn't be too difficult. It would take a while though with lots of paperwork. After all this is sorted out he will be out of the 90 day to six month window for currency that most companies ask for.

In true style he stated that "I probably should have done P2F on an A320, I would have had many more companies to choose from!". I fear that even if this was the case the response would be the same.

So for all you guys and girls out there that have a friend who knows someone who heard about a guy who did P2F and is now working for (insert airline name here) be very wary. Most of the stories are myths made up by people trying to justify to their mates about the decision they made to do a P2F scheme. These threads are littered with ex P2F people who still haven't found employment. A guy on the Bizjet forum a few months ago wrote that he had just finished at Lion Air was now willing to pay for another type rating to get into a biz jet!

[PilotWA123]

It sounds like pilot who used to work or is working in Lion Air cannot get a job from recruitment agency because of their poor reputation... :ugh: really feel sorry for those guys...

[Pilot-123]

One of the guy did his line training 200 hrs with pegasus air, on the 737NG
4 years ago. And is now hired with Oman air.

The other guy did his line training 150 hrs with bmi on the 320,and are now hired with Novair in sweden.

Both are Jaa holders, and are swedish citizens, maybe they have a better chanse, idont know..

[B737900er]

There are 3 ex lion pilots at jet2 and another one at NAS.

[Vsnake]

Then the real question is: What to believe?

I think every case are in the nature.. Everyone has to make his own decision based on whatever they believe. :)

[power.on.spin]

I don't post vey often but there was no surprise when I saw the comment from AlexanderH.... What has spelling got to do with flying aeroplanes?

[pilotchute]

Aerokin seems to be privy to the whereabouts of 9 ex Lion Air pilots who all left in the last 3 months. Unless Aerokin knows these people personally I would say he is getting his info second hand.

The fact that Qatar haven't started anyone for ages and Scoot haven't advertised at all for pilots I find it hard to believe. If someone can correct me on this please do. If Scoot had advertised Im sure it would be for 777 rated guys anyway.

Korean have been desperate for drivers for a while. This is probably due to the fact that they require degree's of two year Diploma's for FO's. I can only gauge Korean Air by what I read on here and it doesn't sound nice.

So far we have 2 guys at Jet2 and a couple of guys who got hired 4 years ago. My that is glowing review for P2F!

As a foot note on another thread a fellow mentioned that in a recent interview he went to in the UK he was the only person who hadn't done P2F. He probably would have had a chance at getting hired if he wasn't competing against guys who had paid for something that should be paid for by the airline. I know that TR's are now the norm to be paid for but paying for the first 500 hours in the airplane is just wrong.

[B737900er]

he was the only person who hadn't done P2F. He probably would have had a chance at getting hired if he wasn't competing against guys who had paid for something that should be paid for by the airline.

I had to laugh at this comment because its ludicrous! If this guy who went to the interview had zero hours then the comment above would be correct, but seeing as he got an interview with these P2f guys must mean he had the hours required also!

The fact he didn't get the job is more than likely because he didn't fit the criteria the company wanted, NOT because the other guy paid for his hours.

The fact it was in the UK just proves my point, because if it was true, then no way would the p2f pilots be flying for free with a UK outfit, I think HMR&C and the employees would be saying something.

I cant name one UK outfit that actually does 500 hours -12months employment flying for free...the questionable outfits, do pay but at an extremely low wage..but if your getting paid then it cant be classed as P2f.

[Greenlights]

P2F is not a big deal since actually it's something unreal...
I mean, people think they will get a job, but it's completely out of the industries, it's something from business and private TRTO.

I have been hired with only 700h (single piston engine) on A320, TR paid by y airlines (+ hotel and food), at Airbus TRTO.
Airlines take pilots based on contact and attitude not on hours etc...
For sure, if you go into this business from private TRTO, you have good chance to not find job... Poeple think we get a job thanks to that, but in reality that's not the normal way. The normal way is nicer and honest.
So for exemple, nobody from private TRTO, who bought a Type rating has stolen my job :) I got it and no need to pay anything.
Don't read forums etc, many informations are fake... get out, find a job, make contacts and don't stay in front of computers.

[angelorange]

********* death !

[737RIDE]

There are 3 ex lion pilots at jet2 and another
one at NAS.

Hi all .. does Jet2 really fly the NG ??

Just asking !!



Last 3 month alone, lion air
lost 2 pilots to flyscoot and 5 went into qatar airways all of them on 777 now,
2 went to korean on the 737NG


Hi .. can you link me to them .. coz i know guys that did apply more than 1 year ago, updating the CV every month, more tha 2500 on type and never got a reply OR just a simple no tanks so far ( QATAR , FLYDUBAY, EMIRATES, OMANAIR, YANGZE, KOREAN, TURKISH, JAL , Southern China, Norwegian, Hong kong express...... etc etc )

[IRS ALIGN]

Jet2 fly the 737CL. The guys have completed a differences course.

[737RIDE]

Correct, they fly CL, do you know if they are still hiring ? i tried but i didn't get any answer in 2 weeks .... , do you have to pay for the difference course only or you have to pay the line training again ??

Tanks

[B737900er]

Jet2 have 4 NG's you can find this information online!!
As far as I know jet2 cover all the training costs unless your a cadet where you have to cover the TR.

737RIDE, your location is Jakarta, if your Indonesian you will require an EU license and visa to work. Reading the Jet2 thread they will get back to you at some point Inshallah!!

[737RIDE]

Oh .. that's great tanks , no, i'm European with UK ATPL , Trying to get back in Europe from some time now but i would like to stay on the NG, basicaly worried about my future, but at this point i don't care i'll take anithing becouse most probably they will not renew my contract next year... and i still don't have any other shot even here in Asia... hope they will reply me soon ..

i already checked the website and many other info.. let's hope for the best, would be sutch a releife for me ... They have almost 40 planes, it's good in long term as well... maybe the end of the Tunnel ??:O

[B737900er]

I would try Zenon aviation recruitment as it will be a lot quicker.