View Full Version : Modular training questions
3rd Sep 2012, 21:00
I am a bit confused about what I need to do to get a fATPL and thought it would be alot easier to ask here than trawl through lasors.
I am a PPL holder and so I believe I still requie:
1. ATPL Theoretical Course
2. A ME CPL
3. A ME IR
I have been looking at several FTOs online and it seems that I could gain a fATPL for less than £25,000, but will a cheap fATPL qualify for any future flying job?
1. Do I need to do a CPL in a MEP aircraft or can I complete a SEP CPL and then a MEP Cse.
2. Equally do I have to complete ME IR or can I do a SEP IR after a MEP Conversion Course.
3. Do the airlines prefer candidates that have completed the CPL and IR phase in particular manner?
4. Finally are there any rules on which order I have to do the CPL and IR in or is it best practice to do a CPL followed by an IR?
Thanks in advance.
3rd Sep 2012, 21:10
After your PPL, you will to build your hours up to a minimum of 150, with at least 100 hours PIC (If I remember correctly), in order to begin CPL training.
However, before CPL training, you will need to pass 14 ATPL Theory exams.
You can do your ME course at anytime once you have gained a 70 hours P1, so this could be before or after gaining a CPL.
The CPL itself can be done on a Single-engined aircraft. Usually something like a C152 or PA28, then on to a complex type such as an Arrow or Comanche.
The IR is usually done after gaining a CPL, however it can be added to a PPL, in which case you must do the relevant ATPL exams and undertake a minimum of 50 hours of instruction.
If adding an IR to a CPL, you will already have passed the relevant exams and will need to undertake a minimum of 45 hours instruction.
As you wish to gain an fATPL, you will need to do a ME/IR.
I hope this helps.
it seems that I could gain a fATPL for less than £25,000
How on earth have you come to this figure? An instrument rating alone is almost this much, you will be looking at around double from where you are now to an fATPL.
to answer your questions:
1) No, you can do CPL either in multi or single engine.
If you do single engine CPL you then do multi engine course (6 hours) followed by multi engine IR. Otherwise, you don't have to do the multi course and go straight onto the IR. You will have to do the sums yourself as to which suits your budget, as the CPL and IR have different pre-entry requirements so some find it advantageous to do Multi-IR before their CPL.
2) Yes, it has to be a multi engine IR to be valid on multi engine aircraft. You could do a single engine IR then convert to a multi, but it would probably cost you more to do it this way, and if you have the multi it is valid in a single anyway.
3) if going modular, I don't think anyone cares. I did CPL then instructor rating, instructed for about two years then did the IR when I could afford it and am now quite happy in an airline job.
4) it's up to you how you do it. They have different entry requirements, you could do IR first with I think something like 70 hours (check LASORS) where cpl needs 150. You still need 200 hours total and 100 PIC to get the CPL issued, so overall the end hours should be the same.
3rd Sep 2012, 21:19
That does help!!
So a ME CPL refers to a CPL taken in a SEP aircraft with a MEP course bolted on?
Can you use your own aircraft for the CPL? I have a non-complex permit aircraft and completing the first phase of the CPL on that would probably save me £ks.
Am I right in thinking that I can use a LAA permit to fly aircraft for flight training as long as I am the sole owner?
Looking at the websites again, some offer a CPL+ME+IR for less than £20k, that seems very cheap!!
3rd Sep 2012, 21:23
1) CPL is usually on a SEP, with a separate MEP Class Rating after, but you can do a 28 hour course which combines the two if you wish. The aircraft you do the test on must be a "complex type" with a VP prop and retractable gear.
2) ME IR only. It qualifies you to do SE IR. No-one does pax transport on a single in Europe so a SE IR is only really of interest to a non-commercial operator.
3) They like the CPL / MEP / IR to have all been done with one FTO.
4) You can do the IR first and CPL after if you wish. Its just that most people don't.
LASORS has been replaced by CAP804.
You will need the ATPL Theory done first anyway, which is 6 momths full time or 1 year + distance learning.
Saw your post on a career change. Bad idea, unless you get sacked from your current role. All jobs bore the cr*p out of you when you do the same thing 37 hours per week for years, and if you have commitments family-wise then a wealthy partner / wife is required.
If you want to enjoy your hobby, don't make it your job.
Send me a PM if you want more info. Sounds like you are are just above Stage 0 for this !
3rd Sep 2012, 21:35
RTN11, £25k for just an IR sounds a bit steep to me?! Where did you get that figure from?
4535 I'm budgeting around £25k to get to fATPL from the end of the hour building phase - i.e. the point when I will have night rating, 100 hours p1, 150 hours TT and the ATPL ground exams completed. This would be based on a single engine CPL, ME rating, MEIR and MCC.
I accept this may be a little low - but seems reasonable from my research so far. Obviously the FTO's quotes are based on minimum hours which is unlikely for me given that I will be doing the course part time. I should also say the quotes I've used are from good quality 'modular' outfits - not the modular offerings of the integrated schools which are substantially more.
3rd Sep 2012, 21:38
RTN11, to answer your question. I have a PPL and the necessary experience to start the CPL and so my figures only account for CPL+ME+IR. FTA are offering a ME CPL & ME IR package for £19,950 inc vat and an ATPL Theoretical package for £2000 inc VAT (Distance Learning). That's less than £25k with a small fudge factor for unexpected fees and re-tests. This does not include a MCC or a JOC.
Stapleford are offering a similar package at a similar price.
CTC are offering a ME CPL and ME IR in one package for £25,444.
Therefore for £35,000 in total, I hope to be able to fund an ME CPL, ME IR, MCC and JOC.
Does anyone else see this as realistic?
Admittedly, that was poor use of the word almost. I seem to remember all in for the IR being around £15-16k.
I didn't realise you had enough hours to start right away, so perhaps £25 is doable.
The trouble is that the prices quoted are for absolute minimum time. Just because the legal text says an IR can be up to 30 hours sim, it doesn't mean it should be. Almost any decent instructor would recommend a bit more time in the aircraft, which although will cost more will give a greater chance of a first time pass, and lead to you being a better pilot at the end of the process when you are on the job market against thousands of others with the exact same qualification.
I see on some of these sites they are even recommending simulator time for the CPL, which although will be cheaper and meet the requirements, it will not go anywhere near as far to furthering your ability than time in the actual aircraft flying in real world conditions.
So I would look for the quality of training and what you will be like at the end of it trying to find a job rather than just ticking the box with the absolute minimum. I did a few extra hours in the aircraft rather than the sim during my IR, still finished with the min total time, first time pass and got the job on my first airline interview.
3rd Sep 2012, 21:54
G-RICH, thanks for the advice. I think a career change may still be on the cards as I need a new challenge. I move every two years in my current job and so change could allow my wife to develop her career.
I am currently planning on doing the Ground School by distance learning and in the meantime keep flying my own aircraft as often as I can to build up even more experience for as cheap as possible. I will see if I can afford the CPL ME and do that then again, a year after, see if I can afford a ME IR. This will probably mean that I will do this over a three year period. If I can't generate the cash over that period that I'll have no choice but to sell my plane which would provide sufficent funds for MECPL and IR package and posibly an MCC.
I will then sit on my licence and stay current until I get a sniff of job opportunity or a job offer and only then will I leave the security of my current job. My employer will pay about £20k for retraining and this will help me pay for a TR if required.
From what you have all said, this seems to be the most sensible option. Now, if I could only pesuade the wife to let me spend over £30k on licence I may never use again!! :=
Thanks for all the advice.
4th Sep 2012, 06:24
I did CPL then instructor rating, instructed for about two years then did the IR when I could afford it and am now quite happy in an airline job.
Apologies for the slight thread hijack but RTN11, out of interest, how do people typically finance this? Given the less-than-spectacular earnings of instructors presumably you're not funding the IR out of your earnings, therefore using savings? A lot of posters on here seem to question how you could even afford the renewals of an MEIR on an instructor's wage, let alone the course itself!
As much as I'd like to instruct - my plan at this stage is to get all the expensive stuff done while in my current career before the inevitable pay drop to instruct!
I funded it the same way as most people, 1/3 savings, 1/3 loan, 1/3 parents (loan :})
With the added benefit of around a 10-15% employee discount for doing it with the school I was working for.
The wages aren't that bad, you just have to get used to squireling money away. At the peak of my career I earned around £2k gross two or three months in a row, and as a freelance instructor you ultimately pay less tax on that than a direct employee would. At it's worst I earned around £200 in one month when we were closed for half a month due to snow.
Overall gross around £12-15k I would imagine. Maybe a bit more once you can instruct night and IMC.