Liverpool Fuel Crisis for GA

[JimA_UK]

:\ If you fly out of Liverpool or indeed fly into Liverpool you need to know about changes operative from 1st September 2012.

ESSO will cease to provide fuel from this date and you will have to buy it from Ravenair. We have received about 2-3 weeks notice of this change!

I am a member and Director of SMAC (Southport and Merseyside Aero Club), and we like other GA users/groups, as well as FBO's will only have access to this one supplier. The hike in price is 135%. Our price is increasing by some 60+ pence per litre.

There is an outcry about this and a User Group has been formed and we have involved AOPA. A meeting is scheduled at 19:30 hours on 10th September at Hale Village Hall L24 4AE, to discuss action that we can take. Martin Robinson of AOPA is attending the meeting. Any interested parties are welcome to come along. We have also created a www site for up to date information at liverpoolgausers.org.uk.

PPruners support would be helpful.

Jim Addison

PS The price per litre of AvGas will be £2.28594. Probably the most expensive around.

[DX Wombat]

Simply boycott the place and fly to Hawarden it's only just across the Dee in N Wales. ;)

[Immortal]

PS The price per litre of AvGas will be £2.28594. Probably the most expensive around.

Here in Holland we pay more.

At EHLE for example we pay just short of 3 euro's (£2,38) per liter.

Lelystad Airport Fuel info in Dutch (http://www.lelystadairport.nl/Vluchtvoorbereiding/Brandstofprijzen)

I do hope that you can solve this issue with the supplier. AvGas is a very slowly dying fuel type. We should be shifting to Diesel and Mogas alternatives.

[dublinpilot]

I have much sympathy with your situation, and wish you good luck in finding a solution.

But if you are to do that, I suggest that you conduct your campain in an open light and with honesty and clarity.

1. The price rise you have suggested is 35%, not 135%.

2. While £2.28 is in the top 15% of prices as shown here
Fuel Price League (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51535)
it's certainly not the most expensive around.

I'm not saying this to be smart or to nit pick with you, but rather to help you so that you can discuss the issues with those who can facilite a solution, rather than getting caught up in arguments with them over minor details.

Keep your argument clean and correct, and then you can keep it focused on the issues rather than getting side tracked.

[Bob Upanddown]

You say you have to buy it from a new supplier. Is this because the airport have decreed this or because they are the only company left supplying fuel once Esso leave??

Have you thought about talking to the fuel supplier who is leaving and "doing a deal" for an Avgas tanker and a regular supply??
As well as the major players (Exxon, Shell, BP, Total), there are independents out there who supply the smaller airfields.

What about Total's unleaded avgas?

[Cockpit Meercat]

Is their no chance of an outside contractor coming in once per day to fuel GA?

[Captain Smithy]

I wish we had 100LL for £2.28 round these parts. That's actually quite cheap in comparison to some places. I know of a certain "big" airport that was charging £2.70/lt not long ago :eek:

I feel sympathy however. When there is a monopoly it is inevitably milked, as was happening at the above. The attitude there was "if you don't like it, go elsewhere". Also regularly there was a long wait for fuel as the agent concentrated on Citations, Gulfstreams etc. first. When we asked about it, the attitude was the same. Good old British customer service :rolleyes: They didn't seem to care if it cost them custom.

My home base is currenly charging £2.33/lt. Think I'll start flying something that takes Unleaded!

Smithy

[JimA_UK]

Thanks, fair comment. I intended to show the 35% rise however, I did also mention 60 pence increase, which perhaps explains it rather better.

[JimA_UK]

At present (until tomorrow), fuel is supplied by Shell & ESSO. From tomorrow only Shell via Ravenair.

The Liverpool Airport Management has refused to let the GA users have the type of service that you describe. One of the FBO's had permission for a bowser and Liverpool Airport Management have rescinded the permission!

[peterh337]

What if any reasons have they given for this action?

[maxred]

I thiink perhaps the reasons behind it are that the airport authority want to route business of this nature through the favoured FBO. Which, can I assume, is Ravenair at Liverpool.

Same at Glasgow, the club buys its fuel from Signature, who put a mark up on it. You can go direct to Signature and buy it cheaper, a short start up and taxi across the airfield.

I think a lot of the larger fields operate this way

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Paid Ravenair £2.10 per litre two months ago - is this rise purely due to the price of the fuel, or is there also an element of profiteering from this FBO?!

FOK :)

[Thatsthewaytodoit]

The issue here is not primarily about price, although a 60ppl increase will have a major effect on the several GA operators at Liverpool.

The real issue is having a monopoly supplier who is also a competitor, Ravenair are not only an FBO but also operate a flying school,and obviously from 1st September will have a significant cost advantage over others on the field. Those others will have to form a queue for supplies, and guess where any priority is likely to be!

This situation pertained at Liverpool many years ago, before Ravenair's appearance on the scene, a monopoly supplier of Avgas made life very difficult for the other training providers, things like, no fuel on Friday afternoon - so program delayed on Saturday morning whilst waiting for fuel, bowser "breaking down" so no supply, driver away on other work etc etc. Whist I am not suggesting that these tactics will apply from now on, the temptation will be there and there will be no option to take custom elsewhere.

Posters above refer to other airports, I don't think that Signature operate flying training they are strictly an FBO whith no conflict of interest.

This monopoly situation can only lead to a reduction of GA at Liverpool, with a consquent increase in prices - which will lead to a reduction in flying etc etc etc

Not a good time to be a flying school at what in the past has been a vibrant and mostly harmonious location.

Good luck to Lomac, LFS, Helicentre et al in there fight against this iniquitous (sp) decision

TTWTDI

[piperboy84]

Buy yourself a road legal avgas trailer and buy your fuel from any one of the distributors and tow it in in the mornings and fill the planes.

[mad_jock]

Most licensed big airports won't allow this.

Even if there isn't a sole distributer of fuel contract they will just keep the H&S paper flowing in your direction. And in the very unlikely event you do succeed in ticking all the boxes the rules will be changed the next week.

I wouldn't be suprised if half of the fuel price increase in LVP is going straight to the airport.

Airports like monopolys and usually they try there very best to hedge out anything which doesn't give them a kick back. If there is nothing they can do about it they will try other means to limit the supplier.

I have always thought that the greggs baker at MAN was in this situation. 10 years ago everyone could get access to it. Now its in a back corner in arrivals and you have to know where it is to be able to get to it. Still always busy though as all operating crew know where it is, all the locals and airport workers do as well.

[STATSMAN]

It's a long way from T2, but hey we have Cafe Zero & SSP outlets. Thats why I take a butty box!

[Little Moth]

As a Liverpool based owner and with a vested interest in finding out the facts I spent a very interesting hour or so over the weekend with Wayne Barrett, Ops Director of Ravenair.

Before we all get too exercised about this, there is an awful lot of misinformation around and it might be beneficial to take a breath and consider some of the facts, which Wayne took the time to share very openly with me.

Firstly, the price which Ravenair are going to be charging us is the same as the rate at which they charge all of their other GA customers (this has been verified by members of the existing Cirrus and Commander groups). Wayne made the point that it would become obvious very quickly if they tried to profit excessively from the "new"customers, as many of us know each other. It's also worth noting that with their own fleet of 30+ aircraft (half of which are twins) they are in a relatively good buying position and their customers do actually benefit from that (you won't believe that part until you read on). The key point however is that the pricing policy to new customers exactly matches that for existing customers and it is clear to me that this has not changed in light of the sole supply status. Their prices have simply followed the market only, i.e there is no additional markup due to their sole supply status.

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, Ravenair do not buy their Avgas from Exxon, they buy it from Shell, so it really isn't a case of buying it at our "old" price and marking it up. Wayne went through 18 month historical average supply prices for Exxon and Shell. This was fascinating; about 9 months ago they were both very similar. Then, over the more recent months as fuel costs from all suppliers continued to rise, Shell increased their prices in line with the market but Exxon did not. (By the way, this is all publicly available information if anyone wants to verify the facts). One can only guess at why Exxon let their price rises lag behind the others, but it's worth noting that there are at least four different factors which can affect pricing (the cost of crude, the cost of shipping, the exchange rate against the dollar and the oil companies profit multipliers). Even more surprising is the fact that (AIUI) Exxon buy their fuel from Shell anyway! Anyway, the net result is that Exxon has been (in aviation terms) something of a bargain.


Now, turning to the situation al LPL, Exxon gave notice (in fact, insufficient notice according to their contract) that they would no longer be prepared to supply Avgas on the GA Apron. Several of the residents asked to have their own mobile bowser, but the airport had already reached agreement with the CAA and the HSE that they would try to reduce the number of mobile bowsers rather than increase them (there is apparently national pressure to do this due to "safety concerns" at GA airfields which may or may not be unfounded).

Just as an aside, if you saw the extent of the Risk Assessment documentation, licensing and insurance requirements which Ravenair have to fulfil, you'll see this is not for the faint hearted, and I would surmise that some of the LPL residents who applied for mobile bowsers may not have been in a position to comply anyway. Ravenair obviously already had all of this in place as an existing supplier of many years' standing.


There is also the issue of who stores the fuel. At the moment bulk storage is in tanks jointly owned by Exxon and Shell, so this precludes (for example) Total fuel being bought and stored if their rate happens to be better. Any other supplier would have to be agreed with the airport (and a commercial agreement put in place) and have a point of delivery to allow storage.

So, if I were to summarise, we have been getting a better deal than most for many months, and this deal is no longer available to us. The rate which we pay now will (as always) suffer from the ups and downs of fuel prices just like it did with Exxon. Granted, it's no bargain, but as the old fuel stocks at various airfields get replaced at current rates it should become clear that we aren't wildly out of kilter. In a way, had we had lots of gradual rises over the last 9 months we wouldn't even be discussing it now, but the apparent jump is what has caused the upset.

One thing which has become clear is that it is often difficult to compare like with like due to the different practices of the fuel companies. One good method is an average over a 12-18 month period which is what we will do from now on (and, just for the record, what Ravenair do as part of their procurement and purchase procedures).

On a more practical basis, I arrived at 11:30 on Saturday and the aircraft needed fuel. 5 mins later the Ravenair fueller was there with no fuss and a cheery smile. Anyone who knows the deal with Exxon will realise what an achievement this is (most importantly, there was no taxying down to Stand 14 and waiting half-an-hour while the Exxon guy finishes his sandwich).

Overall I think we had a great deal, but it has now ended, however, the alternative arrangements do have some positives too.

Hope that's helpful

[sammypilot]

Good to know that Exxon have been subsidising my flying for the past 20 years by operating at a loss!

[Little Moth]

I think that there's a big difference between "operating at a loss" and "not making as much profit as the shareholders might want"!

I'm guessing the latter rather than the former.

[JimA_UK]

I understand via one of the FBO's that Esso would be prepared to provide fuel to a GA Bowser at previously established rates, plus the recent 5% general rise in fuel prices.

Liverpool Airport management are, at present, not allowing an additional bowser in this area. They (LAM) claim this is for H&S reasons, with CAA and DfT pressure?

I also know that Total would also be interested and would be prepared to do a joint project with a suitable FBO.

[Dan the weegie]

Regs on AVGAS storage and delivery are very strict. That said, Airports are getting in the habit of hiding behind H&S and specifically the DfT regulations which mere mortals cannot possibly comprehend.

Normally it's an excuse because they don't want to do anything about it but are unable - for whatever reason - to say it out loud.

That said some of the DfT regs are getting totally bonkers. Inverness has to build a 30m "exclusion" zone outside the terminal to prevent attacks like the one at Glasgow. Which succeeded only in injuring the perpetrators (and minor injuries to those putting their shoes into the perps) and making an idiot ned(chav) famous for 15 minutes.

So the existing regs were sufficient but they decided nonetheless they needed to built a little fort around an airport at significant cost to the person who pays for the airport (you and me!). What's annoying about the DfT is that they're unelected civil servants with no accountability to anyone.

[octavian]

Any update from the meeting on 10th?

Octavian

[cockney steve]

anyone thinking they can just buy a bowser-full of Motor Spirit or Avgas and park it in their back yard, is in for a big surprise.

check the UK Petroleum mixtures and Petroleum Spirit storage,handling.transport and dispense regulations.
had Petrol NOT been a "legacy" fuel , there's no way it would be available outside a strictly-controlled professional-user environment.

Truth is. this highly volatile low flash-point fuel is highly dangerous.
the majority are far too blase in their approach to it.

[mad_jock]

Yep petrol stations are going up in flames everyday.

And the folk they employ garages really are the top of the professional hydrocarbon dispencing system with triple figure IQ's.

The only reason why you need a pro in is the quality checks which need to be done for aviation fuel. The despensing of it can be done by anyone able to fill a car.

[gasax]

As a substance, yes it can do some pretty dangerous things. But show me anyone with half a brain who does not understand this and acts accordingly - hence hundreds of people are not dying from their 'blase' handling of the stuff.

Instead we have 'Petroleum Officiers' wailing tales of doom and imposing very expensive precautions - which pre-suppose everyone is an idiot.

(with due apologies to anyone who is an idiot).

[mad_jock]

You can't protect idiots from themselves.

The world would come to a stop if we attempted to do that.

Airside is a relatively educated enviroment when it comes to fuel.

Your more likely to get accidents away from the aircraft in hangers and other areas when petrol is not being used as an aircraft fuel.

Fuel in the bowser or in the aircraft is by far the safest place for it to be.

Which is why the fannying around with jerry cans etc because of red tape is a retro step in safety.

[b2vulcan]

You can't protect idiots from themselves.

The world would come to a stop if we attempted to do that.

Sadly a number of countries, UK included, are attempting to do that.