High Blood pressure no side effects cure

[Pace]

Doctors zap high blood pressures with radio waves: Procedure could be permanent cure | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2194031/Doctors-zap-high-blood-pressures-radio-waves-Procedure-permanent-cure.html)

I posted initial tests on this small operation for curing HBP a year ago. The tests are complete with excellent results for a NO drug cure for HBP.

Now its almost available on the NHS for those who do not respond to drugs!

Regarding drugs which have large side effects as well as effecting men in their personal lives this must be a major and exciting breakthrough!
For pilots who having side effects is more important this should be an exciting new development.
On the NHS drugs are still cheaper but for pilots is this a first point of call??
What is the CAA s opinion?
16 million have HBP so the drug companies who make a fortune selling poison to control it will not like this!!!!

[Rotorhead1026]

Unfortunately the long-term effects are unknown. It's certainly encouraging for those who don't respond well to drugs. It's worth the risk for many - but at this point there's still a risk.

[dirkdj]

I am using this orthomolecular method, get yourself a BP meter to test at home. Low Carb, high fat diet.

Lechitin and carnitin can be found in the local health shop or on the internet.

One of the simplest and most effective
therapeutic approaches involved the combination
of a significantly higher water intake,
and supplementation with lecithin
(3600 mg/day) and L-carnitine (500 mg/
day). Increasing water intake can help to
promote a better hydroelectric and sodium-
potassium balance in the renal system.
Lecithin (phosphatidyl choline) will
promote the synthesis of acetylcholine, a
neurotransmitter that tends to reduce
blood pressure. L-carnitine is important in
the oxidation of fatty acids and is sometimes
described as an oral chelating agent.

[Pace]

Unfortunately the long-term effects are unknown. It's certainly encouraging for those who don't respond well to drugs. It's worth the risk for many - but at this point there's still a risk.

They have stated that there are no side effects so I am unsure what risk there is to many?

Conventional drugs for controlling HBP do carry risks in numerous directions.

What is not clear is how long the effects of this procedure will last?
As stated HBP is a massive industry for the drug companies who would not want a simple medical procedure to better their own longterm drug usage and hence sales

[Bad medicine]

They haven't actually stated that there are no side-effects. The small trials so far (numbering around 200 patients in total, and funded and authored by the maker of the device), have shown a decrease in blood pressure but it is important to understand what these patients were.

To be elegible for the trial, patients had to have a minimum BP of 160mmHg and had to be on at least 3 medications. Post the procedure, the patients each remained on an average of 5 different medications, including a significant number who were on more medications after the procedure than before it.

The procedure itself has a number of risks, mainly those common to all endovascular procedures of this type. In this study, they were femoral artery pseudoanuerysm/haematoma, and renal artery dissection.

So, in people with severe hypertension, unresponsive to medication, this procedure may be a useful adjunct to medication. No patient in the trial was able to stop medication. The device is not yet FDA registered, and the procedure is only available as part of the trial.

Hope this helps. Best not to get your medical advice from headlines!

Cheers,

BM

[homonculus]

And certainly best not to get your medical information from the Daily @@il

[Rotorhead1026]

Hope this helps. Best not to get your medical advice from headlines!

+1

You can't claim no side effects until you've done a long-term trial with ... no side effects. It would be a shame, ten years out, to find this treatment leads to kidney failure. For the subjects with uncontrolled BP, there's little downside since that's what they're headed for anyway. For the rest, though, it's a poor outcome!

[Bushfiva]

I measure my BP and sats twice a day. Two cups of hibiscus tea per day seem to be worth about 6 mmHg. After showing a year of data to the doc, it got my drug regime reduced. Others report greater benefits.

[Pace]

I am not medically qualified but find such a negative attitude puzzling!
HBP has been little understood and any advancement in understanding the condition has to be welcome as that is the only way to find a cure rather than throwing a cocktail of drugs which have serious side effects and which themselves damage other organs at patients for life.

Suits the big drug companies to have millions of people on drugs for life but that does not find a cure.

There has to be a better way than medicating patients with poisonous damaging drugs?

If this is a step in that direction it should be applauded.
And yes I am aware that the daily mail must be the curse of every GP surgery:(

[ausdoc]

I don't think there has been a negative attitude here. There is no doubt that this is a potential new tool in the treatment of hypertension, but it doesn't allow people to come off their medication, and it is not without risk. There are as yet, no studies demonstrating the long term outcomes (positive or negative). You can always stop a medication if it has unintended effects.

As BM wrote, this study was funded by the manufacturer of the equipment used to carry out the procedure. How is that different to a drug company who does a trial to show how well their product works in order to get it registered by the various authorities?

I am medically qualified, and I would far prefer taking medication first, before letting someone stick a cannula up my femoral artery and destroying the nerves to my kidneys!

[Bad medicine]

Pace - There has to be a better way than medicating patients with poisonous damaging drugs?


In a lot of people (no, not everybody), there is a much better way. Avoid the risk factors that contribute to it from a young age:

Never smoke
Eat a healthy diet - low fat, low salt
Maintain a health weight
Take regular aerobic exercise
Moderate alcohol intake - no more than 2 standard drinks a day, and at least 2 AFDs a week


But, if despite all of this, your blood pressure is high (and you will only know if you get it checked), the sooner it is brought back to an acceptable level the less damage will be done to your heart, kidneys, blood vessels, etc.

Nobody likes taking a lot of pills, but it is probably better than an early death, being permanently disabled by a stroke, or becoming a cardiovascular cripple.

The news story you presented is very misleading. While it is important work, not one person in the study was rendered medication free, nor was their hypertension "cured". The procedure may offer an additional way of managing severe hypertension which responds poorly to medication, but there is no data on the long term effects at this time.

Cheers,

BM

[dirkdj]

Having had too many close relatives with cancer, even aged early 30s, I decided to inform myself with regard to my health and safety.
I am happy to have found a 'real' doctor interested in orthomolecular medicine. He will first check the blood analysis, then advise on diet, whatever supplements need to be taken (vitamins, minerals, etc) and as last resort pharmaceutical drugs.
I stopped taking BP medication and statins for cholesterol one year ago. After about two months (to describe it in pilot terms) my mind cleared up from 500 OVC to CAVOK. Several small issues that were attributed to 'old age' by my previous doctor disappeared mysteriously. A heart scan showed 0% calcium score (as good as new).
As I have entered my sixth decade, I feel more vigorous and clear-minded than when I was 30.

My conclusion so far: eat no more wheat, potato, pasta, bread, eat more fat, more vegetables, more eggs.
Many good books are available by Linus Pauling, Abram Hoffer, Andrew Saul, etc.

[drag king]

My conclusion so far: eat no more wheat, potato, pasta, bread, eat more fat, more vegetables, more eggs.

While I (partially) agree on reducing carbs-intake, I am puzzled by the "fat" bit. What about cholesterol? That has a BIG saying in HBP, imho.

[etrang]

They have stated that there are no side effects

Where has this been stated? And who are "they"?

drag king
What about cholesterol? That has a BIG saying in HBP, imho.

Why do you think that cholesterol affects blood pressure? It does of course have an impact on heart disease, but that is quite different. Also there are many types of fat which do not contain any cholesterol or are very low in cholesterol. In any case there is now considerable doubt as to whether dietary cholesterol has a significant impact on blood cholesterol. Your body can and does make cholesterol every day. If you eat more cholesterol your body will make less, and vice versa.

[bluecode]

Certainly interesting but if it only applies to people who don't respond to drugs or suffer serious side effects. Then it's not much use to people like me who don't have any such problems. I would dearly love to give up my three a day, well two in fact, one is Statin for cholestrol. The main side effect of these is to lighten my wallet. No freebies in this country unless you're virtually on the bread line. :( €50 Euro a month is quite painful.

I'm interested in any other remedies though, like Lecithin and hibiscus tea. But the difficulty I have is my Class 1 medical. Need to hang onto that for obvious reasons. Which narrows my options a bit.

[dirkdj]

Last week I finished reading 'The great cholesterol con' by Dr Malcolm Kendrick (Scottish).

His conclusions:

-statins don't work for 100% of women (extremely bad for pregnant women as well), work for only 5% of men (those who already had a heart failure, and those can safely avoid statins too).
-diet has no relationship to cholesterol
-countries with the highest saturated fat intake have the lowest heart disease deaths. Countries with the lowest fat intake have the highest heart disease deaths .
Compare :France: 15%fat intake, 75 deaths/100/000/year
Ukraine:7.5% fat intake, 730 deaths/100/000/year
note :official WHO data.

I too had recommendations from my AME 'to do something' about my BP. I took statins until a year ago when I started reading and discovering.

What is bad is processed foods with synthetic additives of any kind. Sugar and wheat are also real culprits for weight gain. There is a big gap between what the scientists (independent please) find and know and what is communicated to the general public. Cholesterol is a 2 billion GBP business in the UK alone, statins are the most profitable product of big pharma and we, patients and doctors are being brainwashed to death.

[homonculus]

Dirkdj

You are of course welcome not only to your views but also to follow whatever lifestyle you wish. However it is ironic your post rubbishing statins was done the day one of the largest independent studies on statins has been published and which shows that they even reduce death rates in people with normal cholesterol. Oh, and apart from muscle problems in 1 in 10000 no real side effects.

[dirkdj]

Homonculus,

I have made my own conclusions, so far they seem to be working as expected. Everybody is responsible for his own health, so do your research. Why are so many more people dying from heart disease and cancer than only 50 years ago? Something is broken in the world of modern medicine it seems.

[dirkdj]

I found this video very interesting: The Food Revolution - AHS 2011 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/FSeSTq-N4U4)
Obesity, Hypertension, Diabetes didn't happen overnight.

[dirkdj]

I found this video very interesting: (search for 'The food revolution AHS2011 Youtube')
Obesity, Hypertension, Diabetes didn't happen overnight.

[Loose rivets]

I was astonished to be told that a beta-blocker, Atenalol, seems to control blood pressure by lowering the heart rate. It is certain some patients end up with an athlete's rate of 46 - and that's when mobile!

Can the methodology be correct, and indeed, is it a general policy to manipulate the pressure in this way?

[etrang]

Yes, that is one of the key effects of beta blockers (but not of other hypertensive drugs). Why is it astonishing?

[Loose rivets]

The answer is, I don't know. It just seems counter-intuitive.

I considered 50 an athlete's rate when walking about, and now I hear of older people losing all their oomph, and an on the spot check showing 45.

There has to be more than lowering a pump's speed to effect a decrease in pressure. I think of it like electrical power calculations. You can't lower voltage without increasing current - if you want the same overall power. In the same way, I can't see how reducing the heart's rate to 50% can possibly leave the patient with a high enough oxygen-carrying mass flow. Yes, the pressure is down, but the platelet count at any given point must surely be lowered to unacceptable levels.

[DX Wombat]

the platelet count at any given point must surely be lowered to unacceptable levels. What makes you say that? Anti-hypertensive medication has been around so long that if that were the case then a marked increase in haemorrhagic problems would have been observed, documented and researched before now. I have been unable to find any, even tenuously related, research on this subject apart from one study specific to one drug. This can be found here: NEFROLOGÍA. Vol. XXII. Suplemento 2. 2002 (can't provide a direct link).

[Pace]

I do not have HBP but did over 30 years ago in my early 20s. I get 1st class medicals where BP has always run along the top of normal with occasional tut tuts from the AME.
I came across a product called Alistrol which had rave reviews and was a natural herbal remedy if somewhat expensive.
I tried the product somewhat sceptical and was surprised on the next two medicals of achieving readings of 120/80 down from the usual top of normal.
I am convinced with the product other than the price.

I think we are right to question medication on a condition which is not fully understood and appreciate the lifestyle recommendations made here but I also know some pretty obese bad life stylers who churn out low readings and some pretty good life stylers who are slim and have high readings.

[main gear touchdown]

I was astonished to be told that a beta-blocker, Atenalol, seems to control blood pressure by lowering the heart rate. It is certain some patients end up with an athlete's rate of 46 - and that's when mobile!




I always thought the lower blood pressure was more due to the effect on the heart's contractility and on plasma renin activity rather than from the effect on heart rate.

[jcbmack]

Not being a doctor but having a Biology/pre-med background and lab research experience looking at BP, pulse rate hormones and other physiological parameters... BP and heart rate are not well correlated and even as heart rate increases and decreases it is more about contractile force as others pointed out, and how well/fast blood vessels dilate/contract. I did research on stress response, physiological response and behavioral correlates, but even here one can see how they are not really matched, BP and heart rate:

Blood Pressure vs. Heart Rate (http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HighBloodPressure/AboutHighBloodPressure/Blood-Pressure-vs-Heart-Rate_UCM_301804_Article.jsp)

I am not trying to interrupt your thread discussion, I just thought you may find the input useful.

The lowering of the heart rate itself is not enough to lower BP significantly:

But a heart rate lower than 60 doesn’t usually signal a medical problem. It could be the result of taking a drug such as a beta blocker. A lower heart rate is also common for people who get a lot of physical activity or are very athletic, Stein said. Active people often have lower heart rates because their heart muscle is in better condition and doesn’t need to work as hard to maintain a steady beat.

A beta blocker in part below, but this quote is not quite right and this is why confusion can result. Still the and conjunction is used to illustrate more than just heart rate is affected to lower BP, which is correct.

What the Medication Does
Decreases the heart rate and cardiac output, which lowers blood pressure and makes the heart beat more slowly and with less force.


But the total cardiac output is lowered which lowers BP:

Cardiac Output

Cardiac output is the volume of blood pumped by the heart per minute (mL blood/min). Cardiac output is a function of heart rate and stroke volume. The heart rate is simply the number of heart beats per minute. The stroke volume is the volume of blood, in milliliters (mL), pumped out of the heart with each beat. Increasing either heart rate or stroke volume increases cardiac output.


Cardiac Output (http://www.biosbcc.net/doohan/sample/htm/COandMAPhtm.htm)

Cardiac Output in mL/min = heart rate (beats/min) X stroke volume (mL/beat)

An average person has a resting heart rate of 70 beats/minute and a resting stroke volume of 70 mL/beat. The cardiac output for this person at rest is:

Cardiac Output = 70 (beats/min) X 70 (mL/beat) = 4900 mL/minute.

[Loose rivets]

Yes, I've chipped in as well, but it's all grist for the mill. Good stuff. I'll read in tonight Central time.

[h-da40]

I agree with Ausdoc. Until this methodology has been throughly investigated and long term studies carried out, no one really knows how potential side effects will present.
I'm a GP and some 40% of my patients have essential hypertension, and in my practice we do a pretty good job of managing to control their condition with a regime of well proven ACE's; Ca channel blockers, beta-blockers et al and of course it's a trade off between side effects and keeping BP under control.

[Light]

Hi h-da40

It is amazing how doctors "control" the "disease" and not figure out the route cause to the problem.

If you ever mention the words ACE's; Ca channel blockers, beta-blockers...I will run from them and you as far and quickly as I can!

[Pace]

Light makes a valid point in that medication is not a cure but a way of controlling the condition (not a disease)
The drug companies would not want a cure to ever be found as sticking people on drugs for life creates a Multi Billion $ industry.
Far better for them to concentrate on research to strengthen their case for prolonged use of the drugs and to put a huge marketing effort into brain washing GPs into becoming sales points for these drugs.
These drugs do have side effects which in themselves can cause damage.
Hence even if this new procedure is not long term tested it may give a better understanding about why HBP occurs in some individuals even with bad lifestyles while not in others with bad lifestyles.
One thing I am sure of is the drug companies would never want a cure found only better tolerated drugs discovered by themselves again which need to be taken for life.
BTW I thought beta blockers themselves have now been discovered to increase the likelihood of heart attacks?

(not medically qualified)

[Bertie Thruster]

I can only offer n=1 advice. My bp used to average about 140/90. (age 56)

...Now minus carting around 50 extra pounds of spare fat, it averages about 117/70 (age 60)

Was it just the weight loss, or the change of diet? I don't know.

No wheat now, and not a lot of fruit any more, perhaps just one piece a week. (I used to often eat 5 pieces of fruit a day! Apparently it's 'good for you')

Don't just let the doctor supply a cushion, stop hitting yourself on the head.

[Light]

High Blood Pressure (Hypertension)

Just some info that I learned from a Biochemist.
Below is a summary of his(Ben Fuchs) statements made. Any doctors here on this forum could find this interesting?

Summary-

"Don't take medicines to lower it!!
The medicines doctors prescribe are "blockers": Diretics, Beta blocker or Calcium Channel blocker- stupid science!
Diretics- causes the body to flush out fluids...then this will cause that you will also flush out minerals!!
Thus flushing out fluids makes your blood less volume then lowers your blood pressure, however losing minerals causes higher blood pressure i.e. Magnesium, Potassium, Calsium, Sodium is suppose to regulate blood pressure!
Run away if you hear the word "Blockers", because they poison the Beta nervous system(the Beta system regulates your heart), they poison your circulatory system to lower your blood pressure- stupid!!
High blood pressure (Stress response) is simple to treat-How-
...note, you have 2 nervous systems in the body: Stress and relaxing system
Easiest:
1. activate the relaxing system by deep breathing (oxygen)
Supplement with lots of alternates:
2. VitB3 (Niacin) it opens the blood vessels(Note Niacin flush- use time release Niacin)
Electrolytes minerals...
3. Magnesium
4. Potassium, Calsium, Sodium(BTT)
Amino Acid -Torine
VitB6, Coq10, Carnetine, Chronium, VitC....No side effects.
You dont need a drug!!"

[dirkdj]

Light,

I am also 'working' on my BP. First you need to buy one of these BP testers so you can measure BP yourself. It is a good investment.

I read 'The Sinatra Solution' and he recommends CoQ10, L-Carnitine, D-Ribose, Magnesium. He is a cardiologist with lots of experience. In his book you will read why.

Calcium tends to tension the muscles while magnesium relaxes them.

[Pace]

I started this thread as this new technique seemed to offer a new insight into a misunderstood condition where the only treatment is a lifelong bombardment with drugs which themselves have side effects some which are intolerable to some!
Why does one 20 stone bad living individual have normal blood pressure while a skinny good living person has high ?
Why is it genetic? Whole families ending up with the condition?
Drugs like it or not are big business cures are not ? Well at least not for the multi billion dollar drug companies.
A better understanding and eventual cure has to be far better than a life long
Bombardment with drugs which are harmful in many ways

[Bushfiva]

On 5 drugs after a very, very major episode 2 years ago. I measure BP, sats etc. twice a day using relatively sophisticated consumer gear. Partly because I present a bunch of data to the hospital every quarter, from the 2nd anniversary it will rely on me to self-medicate based on my interpretation of my numbers, and will supply a nominal 91-day set of medication. I can't choose which of the drugs I take: I either take all, or I miss all that day. I closely follow the hospital diet and I got a taste for hibiscus tea. There is apparently no magic here: you keep the blood thin enough to move through freshly-scraped-out vessels, while keeping the volume down to stop those vessels popping. The hospital has taught me to juggle. My target is to get back to a diuretic- and diet-based solution. The diet is spectacularly good and varied; there is no food boredom.

I also do voluntary stress testing to work out maximum heart rates, etc, and I'm lucky my particular hospital has enough spare capacity, if you will, to work with patients who take an active part in their own health care.

I routinely hike mountains about 1000 meters, recently above 2500 meters. I carry off-the-mountain insurance and I do have a sat-based panic button.

As an aside, the hospital does full disclosure in a nation which doesn't normally do that: I was at 90% survival rate for the 3 months after the op, but then 75% for the failure period after that, and am now back at 98%. They also explain the difference between "rate" and "absolute" :uhoh:. "Rates may go down as well as up" was a bit of a shocker.


So, if you don't like the drugs, find some way of convincing the hospital you are willing to participate in your own destiny. You might be surprised to discover how much flexibility is out there.

[Pace]

Bushfiva

I do not think anyone is questioning drugs for serious illness. Only yesterday there was a piece on the radio about the death of a scientist who disovered drugs which keep HIV patients in a fairly normal life.
In my eyes drugs are a failure because they are not the Cure! HIV should at sometime be cured! HBP should be cured not controlled.
If as much money was spent researching cures as is spent finding new money spinner drugs maybe we would have more cures by now!
When I here about over 50 pills for everyone it worries me not just about the benefits of mass medication but about the motives of those who market the idea!