PC 12 down near Solemont (France)

[AN2 Driver]

A PC 12 apparently crashed yesterday in the community of Solemont, France, killing all 4 on board. First reports say the aircraft came down in a thunderstorm and disappeared from radar after an emergency call by the crew at around 1600 UTC yesterday. It was found 40 minutes later by local police.

News Article, French (http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2012/08/24/un-avion-de-tourisme-s-ecrase-dans-le-doubs_841762)

According to radar pictures, at the time of the accident a line of thunderstorms were present on the west side of the Jura.

[Pace]

Another tragic PC12 crash, another 4 people killed and both around CB activity!
Witnesses stated there was lightning. The aircraft should take a strike ?
Very sad for all involved.

Pace

[AN2 Driver]

Pace,

yes, I was exactly thinking the same thing. The ressemblance to the Florida crash are quite striking. If he got struck by lightening, I wonder what that would do, but I am wary of those withness statements. For one, if they saw him hit, that would have had to be already below the cloud base, shortly before impact, but say preciously little about how he got there.

In another forum, there is a picture posted of a french radar at the time of the crash, and he would have been directly over or in one large cell.

http://www.meteo60.fr/archives/images_radars_Nord_Est/2012/radar_nord-est_20120824-18h00.png

Accident site is southwest of Mulhouse and almost staight west of Basel in the area of that big blob of radar activity. That btw also corresponds with what the reports by the mayor say, that it was raining hard at the time.

[RFGN]

Hello, do you know where this plane was registered?
Respect for all involved.

[iwrbf]

Hi,

according to some news outlets it originated from Switzerland, at least the people on board are from there... No infos on the registration, yet.

Kind regards,
Peter

Edit: 4 people from Switzerland, pilot (57), 2 male PAX (36, 51) and 1 female PAX (20)

[LGW Vulture]

Air Sarina aircraft - statement here, (in German).

Absturz Pilatus PC12 (http://www.air-sarina.ch/ng/FlightOps/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=58:art-news-de-4&catid=11:news&Itemid=121&lang=de)

[aerobat77]

Witnesses stated there was lightning. The aircraft should take a strike ?

the real enemy inside a CB is hard and sudden icing and severe turbulence with down and updrafts , not lightning.

[robbreid]

All sizes | ZZ) Untitled PC-12 HB-FVZ GRO 19/05/2007 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jordi757/5750568272/sizes/l/)

Unconfirmed as HB-FVZ of Happy Lines

[CEQforever]

Sounds more like HB-FPZ

[Go Smoke]

Does anyone know if there's anywhere online that shows aircraft movements with registration at LFTZ?

[inbalance]

ASN Aircraft accident 24-AUG-2012 Pilatus PC-12/45 HB-FPZ (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=147919)

[Trim Stab]

It has just clicked for me too that this might be the Saanen based Air Sarina PC12. The pilot (if it was he) was an experienced GA pilot, with family at Saanen.

[FlyMD]

Sadly, Trim Stab, you are right. The pilot was a friend and colleague, whose advice about operating in and around Saanen many of us valued, and whose friendly and helpful manner was appreciated by all.
My heart goes out to his family and colleagues, who have already witnessed more than their share of aviation tragedy.:(

Mein tief empfundenes Beileid an die Familie und Freunde aller Insassen an diesem traurigen Tag.

FlyMD

[avionimc]

Any information if the flight was under IFR?
Thanks,

[activa]

This picture was taken moments before they took off from Antwerp Airport. They took off a few minutes after I landed.

HB-FPZ | At EBAW Aug 24th 2012! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/85897760@N07/7870454076/)

[IanSeager]

This local report is suggesting low level VFR.

Faits divers | « Pourquoi le pilote volait-il à vue avec une météo aussi exécrable ? » - L'Alsace (http://www.lalsace.fr/actualite/2012/08/26/pourquoi-le-pilote-volait-il-a-vue-avec-une-meteo-aussi-execrable)

Ian

[Trim Stab]

He would probably have had a Y plan into Saanen.

Normally flying into Saanen from that direction you stay IFR until the eastern end of Lac Leman at about FL70. Obviously you need to be VMC at that point in order to go VFR. Possibly he guessed that he would not be VMC at that point, so took an earlier opportunity to go VFR with the intention of then scud-running along Leman and then trying to get through one of the valley passes into Saanen.

[FLEXJET]

I guess that if it was a charter, it had to be VFR all the way anyway (Single engine commercial with pax according EU OPS).

[Trim Stab]

I guess that if it was a charter, it had to be VFR all the way anyway (Single engine commercial with pax according EU OPS).


EU OPS only stipulates no single-engine IMC or night. There is nothing to stop operators flyiing single engine day IFR in VMC.

However, remember also EU OPS regulations are only a recommendation to member states. Member states are free to opt out of some of the regulations and several have in order to allow specifically PC12 operations. Given that PC12 is manufactured in Switzerland, I suspect that Switzerland is one of the countries that allows PC12 operations.

[Shorrick Mk2]

Switzerland doesn't deviate from EU OPS recommendations as far as single-engine turboprop operations are concerned.

See the demise of Helvetic Wings.

[Stratocaster]

By "EU-OPS" you probably mean Commission Regulation (EC) 859/2008? In which case this is a community law that supersedes equivalent national regulations in all EU Member States, Switzerland, Iceland and Norway. That's the big difference between JAR-OPS and EU-OPS.

[Grassfield]

For what it's worth, recent news says a part of the wing(?) was recovered 1 or 2km from the crash site... one of the articles say the piece found is 1x3 meters which is a piece of substantial size and would suggest an inflight break-up of some of the structures, if the facts are correct. Really disturbing, I though this plane was more or less "unbreakable"... Admittedly the radar picture in previous post (or checking historic pictures on meteox.com) looks rather difficult. But does this accident have any resemblance to the June accident in Florida where a PC12 went down under unclear circumstances but also seems to have suffered from an inflight break-up?

We'll probably have to wait for long for the accident report, but let's hope we can learn something from this one where a highly experienced pilot in a highly sophisticated and sturdy plane goes down :(

Accident d'avion: une aile de l'appareil suisse retrouve dans un champ - Suisse - Actualits - Arcinfo - site de L'Express, L'Impartial et de Canal Alpha (http://www.arcinfo.ch/fr/suisse/accident-d-avion-une-aile-de-l-appareil-suisse-retrouvee-dans-un-champ-566-1022746)

Alsace | Crash aérien dans le Doubs : un bout d’aile retrouvé à 1*km - L'Alsace (http://www.lalsace.fr/actualite/2012/08/27/crash-aerien-dans-le-doubs-un-bout-d-aile-retrouve-a-1-km)

[susu42]

And according to this article, in addition to the wing fragment a few km away from the crash site, a winglet would have been found 10 km away from the crash site.

Solemont | Crash du Lomont : l’avion aurait décroché à 8000 m et plongé à plus de 500 km/h - Le Pays (http://www.lepays.fr/doubs/2012/08/28/crash-l-avion-aurait-decroche-a-8000-m-et-plonge-a-plus-de-500-km-h)

[Trim Stab]

From that article it would seem that they were flying at about FL250 above the weather when the aircraft's right wing broke up. Very baffling to envisage how that could happen to a PC12.

[avionimc]

Article suggests the aircraft stalled at around 26,000 ft. and then fell off the sky at a very high speed, thus the structural failure. A large piece of the R wing broke-off (about 10 ft long) and was recovered approximately six miles from main crash site.

What is surprising is why the loss of control occurred: was it pilot incapacitation, possibly caused by loss of pressurization? Or, pilot not recognizing the onset of stall due to distraction? Was the AP engaged, or thought to be engaged?

Or, was it instead flying into extreme clear air turbulence, if indeed not inside a TS? What were the CB tops that day? It will be interesting to read the findings of the French BEA.

Recently, two other PC-12 suffered fatal crashes while flying in & out of severe TS in Florida and in India. Possibly the pilots did not interpret the WX-RDR correctly and did not recognized the severe cells and associated [extreme] turbulence. Any other aircraft type would have suffered the same outcome.

Personally, I prefer flying with a stormscope in addition toa WX-RDR. It gives a much better idea ofwhere to cells are.

Why use a Stormscope (http://www.stormscope.net/L3%20Avionics%20-%20IFR%20Article.pdf)

StormScope.net (http://www.stormscope.net/)

[Trim Stab]

Does anybody know for sure whether Air Sarina had an AOC?

I assumed that they did hold an AOC, as they seemed to operate air-taxi out of Saanen. I presumed that they had dispensation for single-engine ops from SwissControl, but as another forumite has pointed out, this was not the case.

So under what regulations were they operating?

Rumours are floating around that the pilot was unwilling to divert to Berne because he knew he was operating illegally. Also that he was inside a fairly severe cell, not in VMC as implied in the newspaper article.

[FLEXJET]

http://www.air-sarina.ch/ng/FlightOps/AOC.pdf

Delivered for VFR flights

[QDMQDMQDM]

Three years on, no report from BEA or BAZL. Why not?

[stilton]

Never used a Stormscope but it seems like a great piece of kit on a single
engine light aircraft, especially when radar cannot be fitted (although I think it can be on a PC12 in a wing pod)


Curious as to why you think its better than radar though, if it was why do you not see it fitted in any larger aircraft ?

[QDMQDMQDM]

The report:

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2012/hb-z120824.en/pdf/hb-z120824.en.pdf

I knew this pilot. He once poured scorn on me for turning back in my Super Cub from a cloudy valley through the Jura. He said that in an aircraft like mine I should have pressed on and tried to pick my way through.

"What a pillock," I thought, and vowed never to fly with him.