Jet! When Britain ruled the Skies.

[Bravo73]

Just starting now on BBC4 (and, I'm sure, to feature soon on iPlayer).

[Bravo73]

Well, IMHO, it was great.

In the heady post-war years of the 1950s and 60s, British flying was at its zenith and its aircraft industry flourished in a dazzling display of ingenuity and design brilliance. Having invented the jet engine, Britain was now set to lead the world into the jet age with a new generation of fighters and bombers. The daring test pilots who flew them were as well-known as the football stars of today, while their futuristic-looking aircraft, including the Meteor, Canberra, Valiant, Vulcan and the English Electric Lightning, were the military marvels of the age.BBC iPlayer - Jet! When Britain Ruled the Skies: Military Marvels (Signed) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01m81f5/sign/Jet%21_When_Britain_Ruled_the_Skies_Military_Marvels/)


This is episode 1 of 2. The second episode will cover the civilian side of things.

[SpringHeeledJack]

A lot to fit in in 60mins, but as these things go it was very good :ok:



SHJ

[Soldeed]

Excellent program - one question - what was the aircraft with no tail fin that had a brief fly-by over the camera? It's really bugging me!!

[aviate1138]

One or two research items needed clarifying. The Germans had ejector seats before us. 1942 was long before Martin Baker. Test pilot Helmut Schenck used one in anger escaping from a He 280 twin jet fighter.
From the time of Schenck's successful escape to the end of the Second World War, approximately 60 Luftwaffe airmen ejected from their planes in combat situations.

They also missed showing the Miles M52 saga to really show the world we had the technology. I guess 60 minutes is not enough to cover such a fascinating period of aircraft production.

The prat Duncan Sandys [son in law of WSC] who single handedly screwed up the Aircraft Industry/RAF/Navy with his "Aircraft are out of date, the Guided missile is King" decisions was only repeating his failure as Chairman of a War Cabinet Committee for defence against German flying bombs and rockets. Prof.RV Jones loathed him [with good reason].

Good to see so many RAF and Navy aircraft once again!

The John Derry DH 110 crash was my first [aged 11] real experience of life and its ups and downs. I was in the crowd but well in front of the carnage.

Looking forward to part two.

[Evanelpus]

Dagnabit, forgot to record it!

I know it's on iPlayer but will it be reshown again on TV so I can set up a Series link?

[DaveReidUK]

I know it's on iPlayer but will it be reshown again on TV so I can set up a Series link?

Part 1 is repeated on BBC4 23:00 28/08.

[Evanelpus]

Thanks Dave, see you over at RS.

[Ridge Runner]

A lot to fit in in 60mins, but as these things go it was very good http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

but no mention of the stalwart .. the Buccaneer!!!! :( (or did I blink and miss it?)

[Treble one]

The Bucc was seen fleetingly in a FAA fly past, and the Swift was featured on a couple of occasions too. I thoroughly enjoyed the programme, and it seems many others did too.

[PAXboy]

Agreed, too much to fit in to an hour but the audience is probably not there for two hours of military detail.

Whilst they discussed the numebr of test pilots who went West, there was no mention of the many ordinary RAF pilots who followed them. The process of converting from prop to jet was learnt the hard way. Readers of this forum will know of the slow response times of the early jets and that the pilot converting would think that the engine was not responding (since it did not give the fast response of the prop) and so open the throttle further. Then all the power would arrive in one bang. Many were lost.

I'm biased as my uncle was an instructor whose student put them in when they were very low - too low for recovery or bail out. That was 6th August 1953.

Back to the programme, the commentary was well spoken for diction but the actress had been directed to the rather 'breathy' and 'awe inspired' tone that is used too often. Having grown up with the 'practical' approach of Horizon and T'rows World (in it's Hay Day!) I prefer a commentary that just tells me the story - rather than dressing it up.

I will watch next week's because this did have veracity from the crews and that was worth a great deal. Tebbit was supernumerary, I thought. He just said how wonderful it all was - without any of the downsides. Almost like he'd been a politician.

[Heathrow Harry]

"ruled the skies" is a bit rich

of the aircraft listed we had to pretty much GIVE them away (other than the Canberra & the Hunter) to get any export orders

and when you think what the USA had in production in the 50's & 60's - almost embarrassing

[jindabyne]

Harry

On the face of it, perhaps. But in the aftermath of WW2, we did surprisingly very well. It was post-amalgamation of all our aircraft companies, and the management thereof, was when it all went wrong. The UK aircraft industry was in need of a diet, but it went too far: the lack of competitiveness was a damning factor.

[keel beam]

For those of us involved in aviation it could have easily stretched to 2 more programs with more detail, however for the general consumption of the British Public, I would say it was about right.

And yes, an excellent programme.

[Heathrow Harry]

jindabyne

good point - when you look back at the "great" British industries 1945-1980 what strikes is just how awful the management were in general - aviation, shipbuilding, motor cars................................

they really didn't have a clue

[PAXboy]

Heathrow Harry... what strikes is just how awful the management were in general...
Were?
They have improved?
:ugh:

[Rosevidney1]

The unions were at their most powerful in those days. The main aim seemed to be in preventing the management from managing.:sad:

[chevvron]

Soldeed: don't recall an aircraft with no tailfin, do you mean tailplane? If so maybe you mean the DH 106 Swallow; basically a Vampire fuselage fitted with a swept wing. There was also a too brief clip of the Short Sherpa, also with a fin and no tailplane but with sort of rotating wingtips instead of ailerons/elevators.

[stepwilk]

The Germans had ejector seats before us.

So did the Swedes.

[longer ron]

The unions were at their most powerful in those days. The main aim seemed to be in preventing the management from managing.

The unions do take their share of the blame of course but our industry management was truly appalling - as was lack of investment (a british disease).
And then we end up with just one incompetent company :rolleyes:

edit...
Forgot to also include our woderful government departments and possibly a certain airline !!

[Tableview]

I watched it last night as had recorded it. Those magnificent men in their flying machines! Incredible to see the Vulcan rolled.
Looking forward to the next one.

[A30yoyo]

The story of the Comet, the Nimrod and Britain's procurement of a radar picket (AWACS type) aircraft would make a long and possibly heart-breaking programme

[spekesoftly]

..... don't recall an aircraft with no tailfin, do you mean tailplane? If so maybe you mean the DH 106 Swallow; basically a Vampire fuselage fitted with a swept wing.

I think you mean the DH 108 Swallow.

The DH 106 was the Comet airliner.

[Soldeed]

chevvron: Sorry, my mistake, long day and not with it - I'd read of the Shorts Sherpa, but never seen one in flight. Many thanks :)

[Soldeed]

Tableview: It was nice to see the Vulcan barrel rolling, but it was Tony Blackman's roll off the top that I was impressed with - read about it in his book, but never seen!

[Warmtoast]

The story of the Comet, the Nimrod and Britain's procurement of a radar picket (AWACS type) aircraft would make a long and possibly heart-breaking programme

The RAF dabbled with the idea way back in 1955, albeit with an American Neptune rather than a dedicated British design.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/RAFNeptune.jpg

I took this photo at Biggin Hill during the 1955 Royal Observer Corps "Recognition Day". It shows RAF Neptune MR1 WX547 from the Fighter Command Vanguard Flight (1453 Flight) based at Topcliffe in Yorkshire.

Vanguard Flight Neptunes carried out some of the initial Airborne Early Warning Radar trials over the North Sea, but I have no knowledge of the outcome of these trials.

PS

A bit of Googling and I came up with this:

By the 1950's, the Royal Navy and RAF had started the development of AEW systems. The Royal Navy ordered the development of an AEW Fairey Gannet, whilst using the AN/APS 20 radar equipped Douglas Skyraider from the US as a stopgap, and the RAF set up the "Vanguard Flight", also known as 1453 Flight, equipped with Lockheed P2V-5 Neptune's. They were not a success, and the flight was disbanded after 3 years. Therefore, the only operational AEW systems in use by the British armed forces up until 1970 were operated by the Royal Navy.

[Agaricus bisporus]

In the second programme I ran one section back three times and am certain a shot of a VC10 taking off (from behind) showed 6 engines. the extra ones apparently mounted below the outboard ones. Or am I seeing something else - like senility?

[brakedwell]

A quick visit to Specsavers might be wise :)

[spekesoftly]

.......I ran one section back three times and am certain a shot of a VC10 taking off (from behind) showed 6 engines. the extra ones apparently mounted below the outboard ones. Or am I seeing something else .......?

I suggest that what you were seeing is the outboard upper reverse-thrust grills. In the shots that you describe I agree that it briefly looks like there could be six engines, but it's just a deceptive angle of view.

[Dan Winterland]

''Incredible to see the Vulcan rolled''.

Both the Vulcan and the Victor were aerobatted. At the time it was assumed one or other would win the contract and the test pilots wanted to show their company's product off. Both prototypes subsequently crashed. The Victor at Cranfield when the tailplane came off while being tested for pressure correction at low level and the Vulcan at Syerston when it was oversped and broke up.

[Dan Winterland]

The VC10 could have five engines - one in the transport pod fitted to the starboard wing root.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/3/8/1822833.jpg

[Krystal n chips]

Nothing unique about the VC10 carrying a spare engine.

Aircraft Ferrying Extra Engines — Tech Ops Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/200315/)

[merlinxx]

for Capt Camberly-Golf Course to carry his clubs :E

[brakedwell]

I thought both programmes were excellent considering how much they had to cover in two hours. Regarding the amalgamation of aircraft companies into two major groups, Handley Page was the only one not to participate and was not awarded any more government contracts, other than supporting existing airframes in RAF service. I remember Sir Frederick Handley Page making a very bitter speech as guest of honour during a dining in night at Northwood in late 1961, or early 1962, after the Avro 748/Andover had been chosen for the RAF in preference to the HP Dart Herald.

[Midland 331]

I loved the shot of the VC10 office with the chap in the left hand seat smoking a pipe en-route!

r

[brakedwell]

I loved the shot of the VC10 office with the chap in the left hand seat smoking a pipe en-route!

Most people smoked in those days.

[spekesoftly]

The VC10 could have five engines .........

And three engines when testing the RB211.

[Midland 331]

>Most people smoked in those days.

Indeed. My dad, (1914-2012) was an RAF ground engineer, has photos of his time in WWII, and a pipe seemed part of the standard issue kit!

[merlinxx]

Lots of VC-10, but nil re 1-11s a better export than the 10 !

[Agaricus bisporus]

How would I be seeing upper reverse thrust gills below an engine on take off?

Well, clearly its my eyes, but there was something there and it wasn't topsy turvy reversers at the wrong end of the flight...

[spekesoftly]

How would I be seeing upper reverse thrust gills below an engine on take off?

Because the aircraft is just airborne, climbing quite steeply, and from the rear you can see the upper surface of the engine pods etc. There's two similar shots - one about 48 minutes into the programme, and another at 56 minutes. If you've still got the recording, perhaps you can tell us at what time your "six engined VC10" appears?

there was something there and it wasn't topsy turvy reversers at the wrong end of the flight .....

Your sarcasm is out of order when a) someone is only trying to help, and b) you're missing the point. The reverse grills (deflector vanes) on the VC10's outer Conway engines are visible at all times, not just when reverse thrust is selected.

[RedhillPhil]

No 1-11s, no Tridents, no Vanguards.

[JEM60]

SOLDEED. I remember Tony Blackman's roll off the top very well. I was there!. If I remember, it was done on take-off, holding low to build up speed, pulling up into the inverted, and then faffing off in the opposite direction. Wonderful!!!!!

[603DX]

Both prototypes subsequently crashed. The Victor at Cranfield when the tailplane came off while being tested for pressure correction at low level and the Vulcan at Syerston when it was oversped and broke up.

Dan Winterland, in Tony Blackman's book on testing the Vulcan, he casts doubt on this official report conclusion. He states that the crash Vulcan VX770 had been previously flown by Rolls Royce test pilots, who had carried out rolls, rolls off the top, and even a loop. After each aerobatic flight by Avro pilots, the insides of the wing leading edges were inspected for possible damage by a small-statured ground crew member, but Rolls Royce did not know of this, nor did Avro know of the R-R pilots' aerobatic activities at that time. Sometimes the nose ribs were found to be buckled and had to be repaired, but Rolls Royce were probably unaware of this and may not have been looking at the leading edges internally between flights.

He is of the opinion that the aircraft may have been severely damaged before take off for the Syerston display, and that that was probably the reason for the crash.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Nothing on the best selling British jet airliner of all time - the 146 and its derivatives (RJ etc). Not a very exciting aeroplane I'll grant, but it sold better than the rest!

I regret never having flown on a VC10. Second only to Concorde (which amazingly was only mentioned but not featured in the prog) that is far and away my favorite airliner. At least I got to fly on Conc!

[gpugh]

I remember ,as a young ATC cadet, in the 1960's having a trip in an RAF Comet 4? whilst we were on a summer camp at RAF Wyton with lots of Victors and Canberras based there. A few of the lucky ones got a trip in the Canberras I seem to remember

[brakedwell]

Nothing on the best selling British jet airliner of all time - the 146 and its derivatives (RJ etc)

Omitting the 111 was a mistake, but Britain no longer "ruled the skies" by the time the 146 appeared.

[Mike6567]

Not a very good copy from the TV
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/VC106eng.jpg

[BEagle]

An optical illusion caused by the royal blue 'BOAC' paintwork on the outboard nacelles appearing to be the 'top' of a 'lower nacelle', with the thrust reverser cascade appearing to be a jet pipe!

[treadigraph]

Think this MoD pic illustrates BEagle's comment quite well. And any excuse to put a VC-10 pic up...!

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_VC-10_Tanker_Fuels_Tornadoes_Underside_lg.jpg

[merlinxx]

the "Whistling Tit" :confused:

[merlinxx]

got a story for ya after we planned & the 10s did the first non stop UK-OZ flight. AAR all the way :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

The VC10 originally had reversers on all 4, but the inboards used to deflect the efflux onto the lower surface of the tailplane causing stress, so were removed.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote : "Dan Winterland, in Tony Blackman's book on testing the Vulcan, he casts doubt on this official report conclusion. He states that the crash Vulcan VX770 had been previously flown by Rolls Royce test pilots, who had carried out rolls, rolls off the top, and even a loop. After each aerobatic flight by Avro pilots, the insides of the wing leading edges were inspected for possible damage by a small-statured ground crew member, but Rolls Royce did not know of this, nor did Avro know of the R-R pilots' aerobatic activities at that time. Sometimes the nose ribs were found to be buckled and had to be repaired, but Rolls Royce were probably unaware of this and may not have been looking at the leading edges internally between flights.

He is of the opinion that the aircraft may have been severely damaged before take off for the Syerston display, and that that was probably the reason for the crash".

Fair enough. My intention wasn't to cast aspertions on the crew or apportion blame - my aim was to point out that both prototypes had suffered during the evaluation phase and the fact both crashed as a result of structural failure is more than a co-incidence.

However, from the limitations section of the Vulcan B1A pilot's notes, the max speed from sea level to 20,000ft is listed as being 250 knots and 300 knots above this. VX770 was originally estimated to be doing 400 knots when it broke up, later revised to 350.

Like many accidents, there was a combination of factors - an already stressed airframe being one.

I used to do a lot of gliding at Syerston. One day, the winches were parked at the spot the wreckage of VX770 ended up. I found a support bracket embedded in the ground which had what I later found to be an Avro reference stamped on it.

Avro Vulcan Crash 20th September 1958 - Keith Sturt - YouTube (http://youtu.be/KGOY1jZGNHU)

[praesta2]

I too found some pieces at Syerston with part numbers stamped. Interestingly my brother-in-law got the haulage contract to transport the myriad of 'spares' from Waddington to Bruntingthorpe when 558 was sent there. Amongst the smaller pieces was a burlap sack containing a several rather badly disrupted aircraft parts. Each one had a F731 attached, red side outermost, identifying them as part of VX770 and categorised as CAT5(S)!

[skylon]

I watched these series in You Tube but I have to say, extremely biased and full of inaccuracies and exaggerations..Similar to these annoying American documentaries specifically designed to entertain home audience ,sorry no offence . As we all know Britain didn't singlehandedly invent the jet engine, some other guys have built and flew two years before and there is not even a single word about these.

[chevvron]

I watched these series in You Tube but I have to say, extremely biased and full of inaccuracies and exaggerations..Similar to these annoying American documentaries specifically designed to entertain home audience ,sorry no offence . As we all know Britain didn't singlehandedly invent the jet engine, some other guys have built and flew two years before and there is not even a single word about these.
Only 2 years? I thought August Coanda was many years before.

[Allan Lupton]

Only 2 years? I thought August Coanda was many years before.

I take it that you are thinking of Henri Coandă and his ducted fan. Insofar as it had no propellor, it could be described as a "jet" but I think Skylon was referring to the work of Whittle and Ohain where the first flights of their gas turbines were c 2 years apart.
That's the trouble with the use of "jet engine" where gas turbine would be clearer

[chevvron]

I take it that you are thinking of Henri Coandă and his ducted fan. Insofar as it had no propellor, it could be described as a "jet" but I think Skylon was referring to the work of Whittle and Ohain where the first flights of their gas turbines were c 2 years apart.
That's the trouble with the use of "jet engine" where gas turbine would be clearer

Sorry yes; Henri Coanda.

[roving]

For those who missed it when first or subsequently shown on the BBC, the two part documentary totalling 118 minutes of bliss, is now found on youtube.

Part I

xNJl_EijuWA

Part II

JvU7nQUethw

[ricardian]

I found this rather disjointed bit of film about the Lightning on Youtube

[sealo0]

https://images.immediate.co.uk/remote/images.atlas.metabroadcast.com/api.pressassociation.com/channel/b4c9bef9-ef51-5ed7-9a35-d197aef04d1f.png?quality=90&resize=70,39Thusday 8 PM

Military MarvelsSummaryTwo-part documentary examining advances in British aviation in the 1950s and 60s, which begins by exploring the design and technology behind a new generation of military planes including the Vulcan bomber and the Meteor jet fighter. The first programme investigates how the achievements came at a time

For those who are interested

Mike

PS not too sure we rule the skies now.

[brakedwell]

Thanks, I will record that. I flew Vampires and Meteors in the 1950's.

[Asturias56]

wasn't there a thread on this when it first came out?

[sealo0]

wasn't there a thread on this when it first came out?

Sorry my tv guide did not say it was a repeat
Mike

[Union Jack]

wasn't there a thread on this when it first came out?

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/493621-jet-when-britain-ruled-skies.html?highlight=military+marvels

Jack

[Liffy 1M]

Sorry my tv guide did not say it was a repeat
Mike
It's a repeat of a repeat!

[washoutt]

Alas! BBC 4 is no longer broadcast in The Netherlands, it stopped after Brexit. So we shall miss this programme. :{

[sealo0]

It's a repeat of a repeat!

sorry I missed the original programme and the thread but lt’s only a repeat if you have seen it before.

[SQUAWKIDENT]

Ah wondered if it was a repeat. I had a feeling of deja vu. It's not on iPlayer yet just checked :(

To our Dutch friend. Get a VPN and connect to a British server :)

[BEagle]

Ah yes - an excellent programme! Fortunately I was able to record both episodes onto DVD in 2012 back in the days when I could record from Sky in RGB to DVD!