Zero hours to RPT pilot within five years - How?

[buzz_lightyear_777]

Hi All,

My Objective: Zero hours to RPT pilot within five years.
Method: How could I best achieve this, given my situation??

Situation: I'm 30 years old. I have seven years' project management, logistics and business experience in the Defence and Air Traffic Management industries. I don't want to work in an office environment for the rest of my life!

After seven years of hard work and disciplined saving my partner and I own our home outright and enjoy a combined income approaching $200,000. I'm in Canberra and I work Monday to Friday.

My partner and I have no debt, no plans for children within the next five years and she's all for me pursuing a flying career. I have zero flying experience and I'll spare everyone the line about wanting to become a pilot since blah blah blah.....

I completed the B.Av (Management) degree at UNSW many years ago and quite a few of the 'rich kids of leisure' who went through the flying stream are now well established F/Os with the airlines. I want to do what they're doing for a day job - What's the best way for me to approach this, given my age, education, life/career experience and the financial resources available to me?

Thanks,
Buzz

[Wizofoz]

Buy a Pitts S2a and fly for the joy of it!!!

[Elfatness]

Quit your job and start training full time ASAP. It would be handy to have a spare 100k to pay for all the different ratings you'll need. Part time training for your 5 year goal will be near on impossible. Have you checked out casa's or your local flying schools website? They will have some more in depth info. Good luck! :)

[triathlon]

Sounds like a plan. OWN PLANE!

[The Green Goblin]

The Virgin cadetship :ok:

[Jabawocky]

I would not discourage anyone from following their dreams, and Jaba Jnr has his heart set on three things in the RAAF, Fast Jets, Fast Jets & if not, Faster Jets, so I am getting the picture pretty well at home.

Having said that.... all my airline mates love their job, none of them are the ones who just do it a go home, they are passionate at all levels of aviation,but they all say I have the best flying job there is. I own a plane, I work in engineering and use it for work. I use it for holidays, and fun day trips. I don't have all the negatives.

Now if the negatives outweigh the positives, go for it. But think carefully about it.

[Ultralights]

agree with Jaba, keep the good income, buy your own, fly when and where you want and how you want.. i have always aspired to the big shiny jet, but after a few jump seat rides that dream changed to putting a SAAB into Cooma on a cold winters night with 20kt winds.. far more fun than Autoland and Autopilots for 8 hrs at a time. then i discovered flying Inverted and 8 or more rotation spins, so now dream is a nice RV7 CSU, with inverted oil and fuel systems..
i still consider the Regional would be a fun career choice, but then see the negatives also....

[The Green Goblin]

Mate,

If you want to fly for an airline - do it. It's never to late and if you don't give it a go, you will always wonder.

It's a great lifestyle. While the company executives always seems to be trying to screw you, the day to day operational staff are great and your peers also.

I'd say if you start now and get the right leg up you'll be flying a jet before you're forty and a captain before you're fifty.

You can still have a 35 plus year career as a Pilot. That's over 20,000 hours.

Do it and if it doesn't work, there is always plan B of aircraft ownership. Personally I'd prefer to fly someone else's and get paid reasonably for doing so.

Secretly the guys that say keep your job and fly recreationally probably still look up and think 'what if'.

If you already own your home, it's also a great start, you don't have anything to lose.

Just don't plan on living in Canberra ever again hey :{

[wishiwasupthere]

Just don't plan on living in Canberra ever again hey

Unless you're happy to fly an ATR...:ok:

[Jabawocky]

GG
Secretly the guys that say keep your job and fly recreationally probably still look up and think 'what if'.

That is probably true. For me, nahh, although as a job(employee) it would be one I would do. Had I been more committed and not bored out of my brain at Amberley when I was a kid doing a weeks work experience, had they bothered to put me in a SIM or even a bou or something back then, I would have retired off a PIG had I been good enough, and now flying an A320 at JQ or B737 at VA.

Lots of ifs, but in my case, no I am doing very nicely as it is. But I think most folk you refer to probably do feel that way underneath it all.

[DraggieDriver]

Umm.. I think the obvious thing would be to go for your first ever flight. You have 0 hours right now, so do you know you would enjoy flying or do you just think you would?

I only ask because one person on my pilots course (after a process of over 4 years of training to get there in this case) decided to pull the pin after GF0 (the non-instructional, lets take the pc9 out for a bit of a jolly and do some aeros and tac flying through a valley kind of flight before course really starts) because 'flying wasn't really what I expected'.

[hot ngukurr nights]

5 years? Definitely achievable.

1. Get your licence (12-18 months)
2. Go north and get 1500 hrs (24 months)
3. Join regional, work for 18-24 months
4. Get yourself on a jet or stay in the regional. Either way you're doing the RPT thing.

If you want to make it happen quick, don't piss-fart around instructing at your local. Get out of town, go north and get it over and done with. Just like pulling off a band-aid.

Very doable this day in age (provided no big delays between jobs or getting the first job). And remember, there are many ways to skin a cat.

Don't forget though, despite the band-aid comment, it's all about the journey isn't it??? You may just want to push out that 5 years a little longer if you love what you're doing. I can definitely vouch for that. Good luck.

[pokeydokey]

Cadetship only way to go. Rex in Wagga is probably your best/closest bet to get started. They've got a few options to choose from cost-wise. I fly with the flying school in Canberra and they've had two guys get in with Rex (twins actually) who were in their mid to late twenties when they applied. Teraya Miller the CFI is a great resource for this kind of thing and she won't try to sign you up for a commercial licence (unlike some others) with the school unless that's what you really want.

Just expect the big pay cut for the first 6-12 years or so and remember the higher paid jobs cost a lot more and aren't handed out to just anyone.

[baswell]

5 years, why so long? Move to Europe, do your integrated CPL + MECIR + MCC course, then do a 50 hour 737 type rating and go to work at a low cost carrier.

[Trojan1981]

That is probably true. For me, nahh, although as a job(employee) it would be one I would do. Had I been more committed and not bored out of my brain at Amberley when I was a kid doing a weeks work experience, had they bothered to put me in a SIM or even a bou or something back then, I would have retired off a PIG had I been good enough, and now flying an A320 at JQ or B737 at VA.



Now a pig or a 'bou are a different story, there you are flying for a living, but does anyone really look up and wish they were flying for an LCC???

If that's what you want then good luck to you buzz :ok:

I know people who have bought their way in under five years.

[Joker89]

Join the RAAF. Zero hours to multi engine jet command in pretty much 5 years exact.

[atminimums]

Buzz,

My advice: go for it. At 30 years old, you certainly aren't 'too old'. I know plenty of people that are your age (some much older) who have successfully pursued a later-than-normal career change similar to yours.

Most of these have not had the advantage of being in the somewhat privileged financial position that you find yourself in. Use it to your advantage!

My personal 2 cents though: avoid the cadetships. I have friends that have taken both routes and the guys who have gone out west/up north for the initial phase of their careers have loved every second of it and gotten plenty of confidence from it as well.

mins

[Move On]

Have a look at the Virgin Cadetship, REX, QLink and Jetstar schemes.

Yes you will have to pay but it will get you to your goal faster, it's just the way the industry works these days:ok:

Go for it.:ok:

[ConfigFull]

Have a look at the Virgin Cadetship, REX, QLink and Jetstar schemes

Maybe, no, maybe, NO! buzz_lightyear_777, these are my thoughts:

Virgin (VA): yet to prove how their scheme is going to work, it's all words on a website at the moment and I'm sure they're able to change the Ts & Cs as they see fit. I can only recommend that you do not be a guinea pig in new cadetships - certain ones can work in your favour but you need some precedent. This is slightly outweighed by them paying you during the training but I would definitely be waiting for the second course that they should start recruiting for next year.

Also, it looks (at the moment) like you will be paid 20% less than EBA on the ATR for the 3 years you are there. Looking at the AFAP website, first year base pay on the E-Jet as an FO at VA is circa $88k. Obviously more on the 737/777/330. See my point below about what you could be doing over the next 12 months instead.

Rex: there is plenty on this forum about the Rex program. Yes, it gets you into a turboprop but in my opinion you can't see this as a stepping stone into another airline (ie. I'll do 4 years at Rex and go to ______) - it will take years longer than they tell you. You'll be logging co-pilot time (50% of total flight time) as an FO which makes the command requirements appear a long way away. However, if you're in it for a career at Rex (I'm not sure by your post) then perhaps this might be for you but I can't say I recommend it either.

QL: you'll need (at a minimum) a bare CPL for the 'Foundation' Trainee Program. Then you'll have to pay just over $60k (~$3k upfront, ~$24k on government FEE-HELP debt and ~$35k to QL itself in years 2, 3, 4 & 5). So this isn't for you for now but consider this once you've done your CPL. You'll have to do ATPL theory subjects and an MECIR anyway so you might as well put this on the debt that QL/FTA has organised (much much lower interest rates than student loans). You'll be paid as per the relevant EBAs (~$60k/yr base in year 1), just some of that gross income will be returned to QL on your payslip until you pay off the ~$35k.

JQ: very similar to what's going on at Rex, just worse. From what I can gather from the AFAP website (here (http://www.afap.org.au/html/s01_home/home.asp)), cadets are paid just over $57k in their first year until they reach Junior FO where they get nearly $59k. You'll then have to start as a flexi-FO (part time) on just over $67k (year 1) until you climb out of the bottom 10% of the seniority list where you'll go onto $90k (year 1) as a full-time FO.

There are some very inconvenient clauses in the cadet agreement that include the ability for the company to relocate you at any time they see fit - consider the realities of this. The website says it's not available due to an "upgrade" at the moment (downgrade perhaps..?) so this info might not be 100% current.


So, what should you do? My opinion: make sure this is exactly what you want, then get a PPL. VA allows you to have a PPL as a max and this will allow you to get recognition of prior learning if you're successful in getting into that program (ie. will cost you less if you get in).

First step: go to a DAME (here (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_91522)) and get a Class 1 medical to ensure you can hold one. Find a flying school (DON'T PAY UP FRONT!!!), preferably where the weather is generally good and plan out a program with an instructor. Use any holidays you get through work and fly as much as you can and stick to the plan. When you don't have the time/money etc. then do as many exams as you can (BAK, PPL, CPLs).

This will set you up ready for the second VA program, at a considerable cost advantage (in the long run) and also with the benefit of some life and flying experience to talk about in the interview. If you're unsuccessful there then get as much flying as you can (eg. ferrying aircraft as a PPL) and continue flying training towards getting a CPL - you'll need 150hr total time to sit the test. You should already have the CPL exams done so it's just the flying.

Just as the ink is drying then try for the QL program. You'll have the benefit of being through the VA testing. If you're successful then great, you'll get a MECIR, ATPLs and a career through it, if not (and you want to stay in Canberra) then I would consider an instructor rating (if you can see yourself teaching). You will be paid circa $35k (is this the award at the moment?) but may be able to live closer to home if this is what you want.

This is where you have to have a backup, either you continue as an instructor and get to the stage where you're doing multi-engine (ME) training and apply to airlines or you go to your backup (outside of aviation) and fly socially. There's nothing wrong with either of these choices but always plan for the worst and hope for the best!

[buzz_lightyear_777]

All,

Thanks for your advice/ opinions. ConfigFull, thanks for your particularly informative response, it ties together a lot of the research and reading I've been doing in the last few days. :ok:

The approach you've outlined is right up my alley and could potentially allow me to stick with my day job whilst working towards my CPL and subsequent ratings. I'll be in a position to take 10 weeks annual leave in 2013 and every weekend can be dedicated to the cause....

Back to work for the afternoon......Will write a detailed post this weekend...

Cheers

[mince]

It's definitely possible, I've done it!
First flying job at 30, RPT jet FO at 35.

Not an easy road though, had to sacrifice A LOT. But wouldn't change a thing, had a ball and met some of my best mates along the way.

The best advice I would give is to stay in touch with the people you come in contact with along the way. So often I've found it's not what you know but who you know that can help you along. And a little bit of luck is handy...

ENJOY!!!

[dlx_xlb]

If I wasn't so unlucky I could have done it sooner..

In fact I know a few people in my current airline.. Who did it in 3... Which makes me jealous but oh well..

Its possible luck plays a huge role..!

[Howard Hughes]

The Virgin cadetship
Second that approach!:ok:
Its possible luck plays a huge role..!
Or networking!;)

[Arnold E]

Now lets look at this, do you want to fly, or do you want to make money. Well, if you just want to fly, then the people that are saying get your own aeroplne and have some fun are spot on. At $200k p/a, sounds like you can afford it, actually, from experience, I can tell you that you can. Now do you want to make money, arrrr, then you have to get into the shiny jet. But is sitting in a block of flats letting a silicone chip do all the work what you really want. What I am saying is, think about what you want from aviation, any sensible person would look at what aviation has to offer as a career (these days), and run like hell in the opposite direction. Maybe you think that being in aviation will give you great cudos in the community, all I can say to that is, Ha.!:sad:

[Howard Hughes]

Maybe you think that being in aviation will give you great cudos in the community, all I can say to that is, Ha.!
Works for me, but the again I don't just follow a line on a screen! ;)

[Arnold E]

Works for me,

Cudos in the community, in aviation, crikey, how did you get that?:confused:

[zlin77]

Step one: Obtain Class One Medical to make sure you can pursue your dream..

[Falling Leaf]

At $200k p/a, sounds like you can afford it, actually, from experience, I can tell you that you can. Now do you want to make money, arrrr, then you have to get into the shiny jet.

At what point can you clear $200k p/a in this industry in a shiny jet? Wide-body skipper isn't it, taking into account that QF will never hire another pilot. So how many years is that; 0 to wide-body skipper at VA or J*? 10-15 years minimum would be my guess, and that's once your in, so maybe 15-20 years.

So if you decide to make this move, when is your break even point; not when will you earn what you are now, but when will you have cleared the deficit between your current pay and what you are going to be earning following your dream. Just another thing to consider...

[Homesick-Angel]

I did it, but I took each licence as it came, knowing that not everyone wants to do it for a job. Unfortunately for me, that was exactly what I wanted to do. :}

Started at about 30, and did not have anywhere near the resources you do and it took about 4 years to get through all training up to instructor due mainly to financial shortages. Could have done it all in two(while still having a life). Then only 18 months from there to a regional (I kinda got lucky with the hours I went in at) which I currently enjoy immensely and I'm not sure the majors are for me. I chose instructing because I wanted to stay with family in the city.

If you have the bug for it, then you're screwed. I'm sure it calls out to you, but be prepared for a challenging road and a major drop in income for quite a while.

With your background skills and quals you will be hired in a flash before many other candidates because a lot of flying organisations, particularly with your first jobs need everyone doing other roles as well. The nature of small business .

Research your training options and DON'T put money upfront unless you can get small reductions in cost for certain sections of your training. Definitely not the whole lot.

Good luck. For me it's been hard here and there, but the best ride and I love my job.

[Rogan82]

A mate of mine started his training at 30, I was 19. Three years later he was starting 747 conversion at rat HQ, I started CT4 course at Tamworth on the same day. We are both still with the same company's 9 years later...he has a fatter wallet (though I am catching him) and I have more multi command hours. Both are happy as.:ok:

[VH-XXX]

Whatever you do, get out of Canberra and your quality of life will increase dramatically!