VC10 to retire on 28th August????

[Rhino power]

According to a post on RAF Lossiemouth's FB page RAF Lossiemouth | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/RAFLossiemouth?ref=stream)
Three VC10s are to perform a flypast of all RAF bases before retirement on the 28th August! I thought the OSD was March 2013? Or has this been brought 'quietly' forward..?

-RP

[NutLoose]

As I am no longer in the RAF can you ask them to do one at EGNX on the way past, they have served here too :ok:

[Motleycallsign]

Looking at the Lossie facebook site one poster mentions it is to mark the VC10's retirement from AT Ops, it will continue tankering until Mar 13 as planned.

[MATELO]

I have not done the drawing accurately, but a straight flight from Boulmer to Leeming would fly right over my house. My recommendation that is, just to save fuel.

[Rhino power]

Have been told it is indeed the C1Ks that are retiring, the K3/4s carry on until planned OSD

-RP

[Squirrel 41]

Is the RAF Museum going to end up with a C1K then? There was some talk a while back about them getting "Bob" in white, which sounds suspiciously like a good plan.

Sorry to see them go, though.

S41

[Navaleye]

Sorry to see the end of the VC10. Hope the tanker fleet have a good few years left.

Navaleye

[Tiger_mate]

RAFM Cosford is scheduled to get a VC10 fly in for retirement. Dont know which one or when; and I sincerely hope that its longevity is somewhat better than the last (BA) VC10 to adorn the lawn at Cosford. I heard a rumour that Duxfords BOAC VC10 may be for the chop due to corrosion; perhaps it has been earmarked for replacement.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Hope the tanker fleet have a good few years left.

Navaleye

Not under current plans :sad: All due for the chop next year (and still no sign of the replacement :E).

RAFM Cosford is scheduled to get a VC10 fly in for retirement.

TM

Given that no one would approve the landing of the smaller, lighter Nimrod MR2 at Cosford a few years ago, I can't see the risk averse powers that be authorising a 10 into Cosford. :(

[esscee]

As VC10 replacement just mentioned, have Cobham released any planned delivery dates for the 2 aircraft they are struggling to convert at Bournemouth? Originally both were meant to be delivered the end of July 2012, but at this rate no wonder the VC10 will remain in AAR role for a year or so. Is the 28th the only date they can get 3 frames serviceable?

[BEagle]

VC10 to retire on 28th August????

But which year.......:oh:

I thought that 'Bob' is destined for the RAFM collection?

Cobham only have 1 Voyager now, I understand and the Spanish are supposed to be doing the rest.....mañana :hmm:

[Tiger_mate]

I can't see the risk averse powers that be authorising a 10 into Cosford.

The Nimrod at Cosford is an R1. The VC10 is definately flying in as did the BA one before it. Your pessimism is logical but unfounded.

[cessnapete]

Appears no replacement in near future as Voyager- 2 stuck in Bournemouth,
No AAR, No ETOPS, No VIP/Royal trips-no cabin fit, No In Theatre due lack of required equipment.
Only good for the odd trip to Cyprus, and every time I fly over Boscombe the other one seems to be sitting there!
TriStar struggling as well, multiple cancelled trips due serviceability or lack of.

[lj101]

No AAR, No ETOPS, No VIP/Royal trips-no cabin fit, No In Theatre due lack of required equipment.

But apart from all that the PFI is going well?

[NutLoose]

Quote:
The VC10 is definately flying in as did the BA one before it. Your pessimism is logical but unfounded.

Hmm and it then departed again on the back of a Scrappies truck...

[Saintsman]

As VC10 replacement just mentioned, have Cobham released any planned delivery dates for the 2 aircraft they are struggling to convert at Bournemouth?

Although Cobham is not exactly smelling of Roses, I understand that EADS have not been particularly helpful. You can't modify anything if you don't have the bits to do it with...

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Tiger mate,

The Nimrod at Cosford went there on a truck. HQ 2 Gp would not countenance use of MOS to land a Nimrod (of either flavour) at Cosford - perfectly sensibly IMHO!

If it can be shown that the VC10 has the perfomance to safely land at Cosford then it may be flown there; if not, then it won't (I suspect). The runway at Cosford is very short (unless you are flying a Tutor)!

Regardless, I hope that the RAF Museum at Cosford gets a VC10 for display.

Duncs:ok:

[Sir George Cayley]

Isn't there a Tristar in Cambs that could be pressed into service?

SGC

[Roland Pulfrew]

TM

The Nimrod at Cosford is an R1. The VC10 is definately flying in as did the BA one before it.

What Duncs said:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7044/6973554173_f4e7bd35ae_b.jpg

As to the VC10 getting approval - I do hope so, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

[NutLoose]

Don't forget one of them going and staying at Brunty as a runner.

[Squirrel 41]

Given some of the other stuff at Cosford (eg Victor) that I understood had landed there, how short is "too short" for a VC-10 (that was after all designed for the shorter runways of the Empire Routes)? No idea about MOS for a VC-10, genuinely interested.

And failing that, could BEagle get one in there? :E

S41

[Dan Winterland]

I'm sure he could. BEagle and I landed one at St Athan once, stopping it before the intersection - which is about 3500'. But this would be gross performance with no factors. Like the Nimrod, it would depend on the authorisors as to whether it would be allowed.

[BEagle]

Ah yes, I remember that one, Dan! It was when we took '144 to be turned into saucepans on 31 Aug 2000.

It wasn't even planned to stop before the intersection, neither was max braking used - but it was easy to do so. The only issue was gallons of rusty water which had somehow collected in the roof pouring out all over me.

Runway length at St. Athan from the threshold of RW26 to the intersection is about 500' less than the total length of RW06/24 at Cosford.

Clearance over the choo-choo track at Cosford might be an issue if landing on RW24, but a max performance landing on RW06 should be possible under the right conditions?

When I was first at Brize and dinosaurs still roamed the trucky world, it was entirely normal for a 'route inbound' to exit at the RW26 intersection - which is only about 4400' from the threshold. The Shineys were very proud of passenger comfort, so these weren't max effort landings, just well-controlled braking.

The habit of turning off at the intersection dropped out of favour after Kelvin Rucksack banned full reverse landings (under normal conditions) to placate a few local noise-whingers....

[peppermint_jam]

Fairly sure the Victor flew into Shawbury where it was cut up and roaded to Cosford.

[Dan Winterland]

You needed about two counties to stop a Victor. It had no spoilers, a brake chute you couldn't always rely on and wheelbrakes from a Ford Prefect.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I'd also argue that using 3900' of a 10000' runway is not quite the same as landing on a 3900' runway! Regardless of the railway line (trains every 15 mins) at one end and the ravine at the other.

Duncs:ok:

[India69]

Ravine one end...railway embankment the other..I could get a Chipmunk in ..but a Fun Bus ?????

[Bob Viking]

Landed a Jag there a few years ago as did many of my Sqn mates. Didn't have to get them out again though!
BV

[NutLoose]

Yeah, but a Jag is a lot slower than a Ten :p
and as a lot of the wings are now flying in Oman, the ones there will probably never fly again.

.

[NRU74]

The Victor It had no spoilers, a brake chute you couldn't always rely on Dan W - I don't ever recall a Victor brake chute not deploying [when selected] - also the airbrakes were fairly substantial

[flipflopman RB199]

Nut Loose,

You know, I don't think it's mandatory that you comment on every single thread.

Perhaps you could save up some of those 'witty comments' and bunch them together on a topic where you've actually got something relevant to add...

Just a thought.... :ok:

[NutLoose]

Well as I used to be on Tens and for my sins Jags and it has already been established that the BA one already flew in to Cosford on page one of this thread, but as it is still been debated if a Ten can actually land at Cosford, the rest all seems superfluous.
I was making a valid point to his post that although they landed, they didn't have to fly the Jags out, by stating the fact that a lot of the Jags are now Sporting FI expired Omani wings, they wouldn't be flying anywhere, something he may be unaware off... If you do not like how I put that over then just a thought....... tough. :ok:

[flipflopman RB199]

And did they fly the VC10 out?

Are there any plans, or have there been any plans to fly any of the Jags out?

As for your valid point, if you worked both the Jag and the VC10, you'll be fully aware of how much faster the mighty Shaguar is, not that it's relevant in any way to either aircraft's landing speed or braking distance. You're probably aware too, given that you worked Jags, that the 'few' airframes that BAES have recently swapped wings with the Omanis have far lower FI than the GR3's at Cosford, and the studies involved with giving those jets the Jag 96 upgrade, but the prohibitive cost to bring them up to mod standard.

Far from not liking how you've tried to put your points across, I was rather more hoping not to read yet another cringeworthy attempt at humour on every single thread on PPRuNe followed by a :E smiley.

[NutLoose]

The Ten flew out on the back of a Scrappies truck. A truly sad day and indicative of the Uk Companies and their view of their History... You have the likes of Lufthansa operating a Ju 52..ME 108 and soon a Constellation to show off their history, and BA decide they can no longer support sending engineers to do an annual spruce up on their none airworthy collection, eventually allowing them to get to the stage of scrapping them.. One being the Worlds last Conway 707, an aircraft whose early life was tied up to the VC 10 development.

[N707ZS]

A K3 has been out most of this week training new crew at various airports.

[Spit the Dog]

New Crew ??? Hardly!

[Dan Winterland]

''Dan W - I don't ever recall a Victor brake chute not deploying [when selected] - also the airbrakes were fairly substantial''.

I know of several - one resulting in a Victor going 'bondu bashing' in Akro. I had one myself - on a wet runway which concentrated my thoughts when the brakes faded.

The Victor's airbrakes were substantial, but they were at the back of the aircraft and not on the wings. Dumping lift on touchdown improves the wheel braking performance. All spoilers inop on my current aircraft has landing distance factors of 1.5 on dry and 1.8 on wet runways.

[haltonapp]

They landed a Vulcan at Halton!

[NutLoose]

Do we have any idea of the routing on the 28th, even if the old girl passes over high and weather permitting, it would be nice to see them one last time in the sky...

That's the Wessex HC2, Jaguar GR1 and the VC10 Cmk1 from my Career soon to be gone, thank God the Puma and Chinook from my time are still in service.

[Whopity]

I don't ever recall a Victor brake chute not deploying [when selected]I recall a few and we were not allowed to land off the ILS at Hong Kong for that very reason, we had to do a Harbour Circuit and land towards the sea.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/38428747/Victor%20VC10%20HK70.jpg

[055166k]

Speyer museum runway 4000 feet. Youtube "AN-22 landing in Speyer"
rgds from a Controller near Southampton.

[Exascot]

Someone out there must have access to one.

My best bet is that 4,000' is too short. I wouldn't like to do it anyway. I needed the first 4,000' to fly the wheels on under power for a greaser.

[ORAC]

You needed about two counties to stop a Victor. It had no spoilers, a brake chute you couldn't always rely on and wheelbrakes from a Ford Prefect. Final flight - XA939 (http://www.tonycunnane.co.uk/finalflights1.html)

[Coochycool]

I understand its "operational" but is there anyone out there in a position to make a vague guess as to what time this will pass tommorrow? I'll be heading up to Leuchars especially but would rather not sit at the end of the runway all day :sad:

One of my favourite aircraft, and this will hopefully save me a long trip south for the very purpose of seeing her before she goes. Thanks muchly for the heads up :ok:

[Green Flash]

ORAC, thanks for the link. It's a small world; the senior policeman stopping the traffic on the A1 mentioned in the story was my Godfather!

[lj101]

Coochy,

Check your pm's

[Beancountercymru]

From another website

"Three ship flypast over several RAF bases announced
RAF Lossiemouth Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/RAFLossiemouth), 21 August 2012
The RAF Lossiemouth Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/RAFLossiemouth) has an announcement about a three-ship VC10 formation which will overfly several RAF bases on 28th August 2012. This is a provisional date, with an equally provisional timing of 1305 hours overhead Lossiemouth. Don't be fooled by the 'retirement announcement', the VC10 will still fly on until March 2013, there's a comma missing in a sentence there!
The three-ship will consist of the three different VC10 variants which are currently in service, K3, K4 and C1K, as this will be the last opportunity to fly them together. The C1K version is the modified transport/tanker variant which has been in RAF service since 1966 while the K3s are ex-EAA airliners and the sole remaining K4 was originally delivered to BOAC as G-ASGM.
Update: the provisional plan according to some informed sources is along these lines.
Departure from RAF Brize Norton around 0900Z (10:00 local time).
One hour of Air Refuelling in RA5.
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Leuchars
RAF Waddington
RAF Cranwell
RAF Coningsby
RAF Marham
Return to RAF Brize Norton with a flypast from West to East down runway 08 at 700ft AGL. Break to land around 1415Z - 1430Z (15:15 - 15:30 local time).
Obviously weather and aircraft serviceability may cause changes to these plans."

Source:
News (http://www.vc10.net/news.html)

[Coochycool]

lj101

Thanks for the effort brother :D

Happily the Met is looking to be a rare day vaguely resembling summer!

[JRMA]

The 3-ship has just passed over York ... very nice :):D

[Rossian]

Do they show up on that and if so under what desig? Just had a look but can't see them.

The Ancient Mariner

[peppermint_jam]

Just visited Marham, thanks for that gents!

[BEagle]

Nice flypast, 101!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/3x10.jpg

Running in to Brize a few minutes ago.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Was hoping they would route over Bicester on the way from Marham to Brize but nothing heard, shame.

[D120A]

Now, two connected centre-line hoses between those three would be a real picture, eh BEags?... :ok:

[Art Field]

Thanks for snap Beags, nostalgia and neuralgia for me, glad to see the folks can still hack it.

[NutLoose]

:{

Never saw it. :{:{:{

Rarer than Buster potting a hole round here. :{:{

[BEagle]

Hi Arters! Did you get a chance to see/hear the formation?

They returned slightly earlier than I'd anticipated; I heard that they were south-west of Abingdon and turning in, so I hot-footed it to the A40 overbridge, but wasn't quite there in time. Hence this was the only snap I was able to manage, with no time to compose the shot, I'm afraid - it was a real point and squirt effort. A bit of cropping and sharpening tidied it up as best as I could manage.

D120A - indeed. Which would have meant 'Bob' (XR808), the ex-10 Sqn C1K, bringing up the rear. But then again, didn't 10 always follow in 101's wake in the AAR world...:p

[NutLoose]

So I take it, it will now sit at Brize while they await the outcome of the debate in this thread as to whether they will be able to get it into Cosford or not.. :p

[Geehovah]

Old footage now but anyone wants some nostalgia:

UK Tornado F3 Videos :: AAR Short video by DeeGee - Photobucket (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/UK%20Tornado%20F3%20Videos/?action=view&current=AARShort.mp4)

[vascodegama]

Nutloose

I think you have got a bit confused in the thread. The AC are due to be flying for a while. Today was the last chance to get all 3 types together.

Just checked LDR can't see a problem!

Rgds Vasco

[NutLoose]

Ahh thought the cmk1 was doing its last operational flights.

[Rhino power]

Just for the record the aircraft in the flyby were, XV108 and XR808, both C.1Ks and ZA147, a K.3

-RP

[N707ZS]

I see the K4 didn't make it, will have to try again next week!

[TEEEJ]

Flypast at RAF Leuchars.

VC-10 Formation Flypast over RAF Leuchars, 28th August 2012 - YouTube

[Blacksheep]

I'm amazed at XV108 and XR808 lasting so long. They were 5 years old when I first worked on them and I was demobbed 35 years ago. 40 years is a lot more than the builders expected them to last. Hell, that's twice as long as ANYBODY expected them to last! I've never enjoyed working on anything so much since then, as the Vickers Knickers.

[lj101]

The C1k is still in service: one of them is on a trail in a few weeks time.

[NutLoose]

Name another airliner that hasn't lost one in a crash...... Says everything

[Avtur]

As a Nimrod FE who has only been a pax on these ac (albeit on the flt deck on most occassions), I extend my best wishes (and gratitude) to all who flew them; always sad to see the old girls go.

[Hammer Head Too]

Memory 1. Bruggen to Deci via Glasgow (I think) and Brize (nightstop) to visit friends mid 90's (route got a bit messy at the last minute - just had to go with it!). We were the only PAX Scotland to Brize leg, crew strapped both young sons into swing seat for the whole leg and went down the west coast in brilliant conditions talking to them the whole way.... my sons loved it !

Memory 2. Trailing F3OEU jets back from Tonapah, fantastic crew with an exceptional flight steward !! He got brilliant provisions and really looked after us ! Cruelly cut short when one of the F3s diverted into Bagottville in Canada with Low Oil P and us sooties were kicked off to wait for the sweep aircraft with the spare engine. Descended into farce and I eventually came over on an over crowded Herc with 2 very pissed off F3 crew !!

Memory 3. Several trips on the flight deck whilst down the Falklands ... a mate was the pilot when I was on 1435 .... exciting flying for a big jet !!

The VC10 is a great aircraft which in my opinion should have been a world beater .... more history.. I must be getting old ! ;)

[Exascot]

I'm amazed at XV108 and XR808 lasting so long.

They just don't build them like they used to. Both aircraft mentioned have survived many, many of my landings :E

[cessnapete]

Not quite, BOAC sold one to Nigeria Airways G-ARVA. Flown by expat crew BOAC/EAA/BUA, CFIT on approch to Lagos with all killed.
Altimeter miss read by 10000ft was most probable cause.

[Blacksheep]

808 was one of the first batch and 108 was in the final batch in '66

[Baldeep Inminj]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned before - apologies if it has.

When Concorde was retired, it set a benchmark (as remarked by Jeremy Clarkson(!) amongst others) - it was the first time in history aviation had gone 'backwards' - there was no longer a supersonic airliner.

What many do not know is that the VC10 was the fastest airliner in the world before concorde arrived, and STILL the fastest when she left.

That is some achievement.

And once again, upon the demise of the Vickers beauty, history will repeat itself.

Sad, sad times. Wish there was something to shout about in the RAF. Well, there is, but it's all bad.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Not really sure that's true. In BOAC/BA we cruised them at .84 Mach, indicated, which was .825 true whereas the 747-400 was cruised at .86. I guess there is little or no difference between indicated and true Mach numbers with modern ADCs. I understand the 380 is cruised at .85. Still slower than a Victor !!

As for the Nigeria crash, was heard that a gun had been found in the cockpit wreckage raising suspicions of a possible hijack.

Sadly, East African lost a Super at Addis caused by a nosewheel tyre failure which led to a rejected take off at way above V1.

That said, an extremely fine aircraft with an incredible safety record. Proud and delighed to have flown her.

[lj101]

Old thread on it here with info ref max speed (including Beags)

VC10 Mach .94 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-9304.html)


The frames are limited speed wise nowadays due to wing fatigue. They are beautiful aircraft (in my option anyway), and when in formation with the Typhoon, make the prettiest formation.

[flipflopman RB199]

Memory 2. Trailing F3OEU jets back from Tonapah, fantastic crew with an exceptional flight steward !! He got brilliant provisions and really looked after us ! Cruelly cut short when one of the F3s diverted into Bagottville in Canada with Low Oil P and us sooties were kicked off to wait for the sweep aircraft with the spare engine. Descended into farce and I eventually came over on an over crowded Herc with 2 very pissed off F3 crew !!

I feel their pain.. The only time I've ever been 'very pissed off' on the way home from Tonapah was with a boring old Appo too....

...emphasis on "on the way HOME from Tonapah"

:p

Flipflopman

[Exascot]

I may have posted this story before but relevant here. Running rather late LHR to Andrews AFB with the PM on board as soon as we left the NAT I asked, and was cleared, for direct destination .92 Mach. A voice from the aether said, 'gee what kind of aircraft cruises decimal 92'. My F/O as quick as a flash said, 'a very late VC10 old boy' :ok:

The fuel flow was horrendous above .86 which is why we always filled it half way up the windows for these type of trips to make doors time if delayed on departure. Very low ZFW so it was possible and the tax payer was paying :)

For the record we made it to the second - as usual :p

[BEagle]

Exascot, no doubt that was in the days of very shiny paint, polished to a high gloss for a VIP trip. No pods or pylons, no camera pod, probe or SDS either.

Which at high IMN would have reduced drag very considerably compared with the somewhat draggier VC10K.

When we first had the VC10K, BWoS recommended a cruise IMN of M0.82, whereas the VC10 C Mk 1 normally cruised at an indicated M0.84. Even then, the K's fuel burn was rather higher.

Exascot, good to see that your high speed cruise received ATC clearance! I recall a snottygram being sent to the station from London ATCC, reminding captains of the requirement to renegotiate clearance for a 5% TAS or 0.01M speed change. It seems that some VIP crews were causing problems in the Londin TMA by making unannounced speed changes to make good their 'doors times'.....:=

[Exascot]

Exascot, no doubt that was in the days of very shiny paint, polished to a high gloss for a VIP trip. Absolutly :ok:

No pods or pylons, no camera pod, probe or SDS either. God forbid :eek:

VIP crews were causing problems in the London TMA by making unannounced speed changes I was aware of this and always reminded my chaps to obtain clearance. ATC were usually very accommodating if they could be. Also arrivals into LHR were not often 'doors time critical' it was usually, 'just get me home as soon as possible'. The local controllers were superb always allowing us to take off and land on the southerly runway for the Royal Pavilion regardless of runway usage at the time. Really appreciated guys, thank you.

[Tonkenna]

Here you go lj101...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5201/5282787978_a3d64f4494.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zz330/5282787978/)
VC10 and Typhoon Formation (http://www.flickr.com/photos/zz330/5282787978/) on Flickr

Tonks :cool:

[Art Field]

Yes Beags, the K's were a bit draggy and thirsty, but what an aircraft for the job the old Funbus has been. Best 10 years of my time in the RAF.

[Courtney Mil]

So long and thanks for all the gas.

:ok:

[BEagle]

Yes, the FunBus was indeed great for the job, Arters! Of course it was more interesting in the early days when there were so many different types of receivers around in the UK skies.... Somewhat more comfortable for you than were the Valiant and Victor (and Vimy ;) )?

Nice piccy, Tonks! BTW, will I be seeing you in 3 weeks time? Admin has been somewhat 'mañana'-ish...:(

I claim to have done the first 'simultaneous' Eurofighter refuelling back in the days of the ad hoc 'Isle of Man' towline with a pair from Warton. After AAR, following the then-mandatory deceleration to probe retraction speed, having filled to full the first went straight up to around FL500. When the second asked for a similar level, it was initially restricted to FL450 due to 'one similar aicraft already blocking FL460-500'. "I wonder when that was last heard in the RAF?", I mused.....:cool:

I suspect that you were a frequent customers of ours in F-4 days, Courtney and hope the service you received was up to scratch!

[Courtney Mil]

There wer times, Beags, when I could have kissed you all for getting me out of the odd tight spot; not to mention getting me to all those lovely places. It was so good, I almost bought you guys a beer!!! :ok:

Excellent job, my friend.

Courtney

[sisemen]

XV 108 at the Finningly 'At Home' day in Sep 1970

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/DSC00227.jpghttp://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/DSC00226.jpg