Who's in charge - RyanAir

[Thomas coupling]

My sister in law flew to Majorca on Ryan Air last month. (Mind you that is already a warning!).
30 drunk guys got onboard and kicked off. The interesting bit is that the cabin staff plied thm with booze for the whole 2hrs of the flt. The lads were ordering drinks (and paying for them) in bulk: multiples of 5 doubles here 6 cans there. They were refusing to wear seat belts, refusing to sit down for takeoff, hogging the toilets, swearing, shouting, etc.
When the plane landed, my nephew heard the Captain say to the senior purser: "What the :mad: hell were you doing?"
I am led to believe cabin crew on RyanAir get commission for selling booze and goods onboard. Is this correct?
When are RyanAir going to tidy up their act eh?

I am so, so glad I refused to fly for these amateurs all those years ago - what a disasterous airline:ugh:

[easyflyer83]

Crew do make commission from drink like most airlines that sell drinks etc.
I wasn't there so I'm not going to criticise or indeed defend the crews actions.

If they were refusing to sit down for take off then as a No.1 i'd seriously considering asking for them to be offloaded. Occasionally you get someone standing up once the cabin is secured but they sit down when they are told to.

However, it is not always clear cut when it comes to dealing with these 'groups' and on certain routes we do tend to get a lot of them at my airline too. On several occasions I have had passengers question my actions when it comes to serving groups. There are a few things to consider.

1) Groups of lads (and girls) often 'bounce off each other' and are quite often loud. That isn't a reason to not serve them with alcohol. It's good practice to build a rapport with them as it then makes it easier to reign them in if they decide to overstep the mark. Swearing; most crew will tell them to stop swearing but loud behaviour is common place on certain routes and thats just the way it is.

2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure.

3) Peoples tolerances vary. I am used to loud behaviour on certain flights, particularly in the Summer. It's part and parcel of what I do, I know I have control and these loud flights can be great fun to operate. However, your nervous flyer or those flying away to some quiet resort may feel intimidated so a cabin presence is always required for reassurance but strictly speaking, being loud is not against the rules and it doesn't always mean they've had too much to drink.
It's worth while mentioning a very recent flight I operated with around 15 rowdy squaddies returning back to the UK. They were loud, and sadly 1 or 2 were obnoxious. One guy in particular was drinking his own alcohol and generally being an idiot. A couple of people complained, I had another word with him to then be told to give them a break by a few other passengers. Again, peoples tolerances vary.

4) Withdraw alcohol if/when someone starts misbehaving. Again, misbehaving doesn't generally include loud behaviour. Withdrawing alcohol to quieten down a group doesn't work. However, if someone shows signs of unsafe behaviour then that is where you start getting serious and where withdrawing drink is necassary.

5) The vast majority of onboard incidents caused by drunken behaviour involve the consumption of own alcohol and believe it or not it tends to be individuals/couples who have been nice and pie one minute and the next suddenly turn nasty.

6) Some older couples can drink just as much. On Manchester flights it's not uncommon to serve the little old couple going on holiday 2 bottles of wine washed down with 2 double G&T on the first bar service. But their demographic means they are unlikely to be loud with their mates.

Like I said i don't want to comment too much as I wasn't there. To be honest, if they were refusing to sit down for take off I'd have considered asking the Captain that we return to stand and I would have been weary if we'd have taken them. Loud behaviour at this time of the year is just part and parcel of flying to the med though and I won't withdraw alcohol just on that basis. I will ask them to be quiet and many will quieten down only for them to get loud again. I'm sorry but that is more of a courtesy issue and not a safety infringment but like I said you keep an eye on them in order to make sure things don't get out of hand and you remain in control.

I'm not dismissing your sister in laws account but I just wanted to make a few points because some scenario's aren't always black and white and passengers don't (and aren't expected to) know how best to deal with groups of lads. Ruling with an iron fist rarely works in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of Ryanair and I am dubious about their crew even though there will, as always, be some bloody good crew members there.

[Hotel Tango]

Yet another good reminder to myself why I avoid the likes of RYR like the plague. Easyflyer83's comments certainly doesn't encourage me to fly EZY either. I am however very grateful to these airlines for keeping those low life idiots away from the carriers I fly on ;)

[jetset lady]

Ruling with an iron fist rarely works in my opinion.

You'd be surprised....

To be honest, if they were refusing to sit down for take off I'd have considered asking the Captain that we return to stand and I would have been weary if we'd have taken them.

Only considered? If they are refusing to sit down, how are you able to give cabin secure? Sorry but that's a definite no go. Back to the terminal and off they go, with a little assistance from the police if need be.

2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure.

You are joking, aren't you?

3) Peoples tolerances vary. I am used to loud behaviour on certain flights, particularly in the Summer. It's part and parcel of what I do, I know I have control and these loud flights can be great fun to operate.

How do you know you have control? People are, by their very nature, unpredictable at the best of times. Add in alcohol and possible drugs and the situation can turn from fun to nasty and downright dangerous in a matter of seconds. None of us know where that tipping point is.

However, your nervous flyer or those flying away to some quiet resort may feel intimidated so a cabin presence is always required for reassurance but strictly speaking, being loud is not against the rules and it doesn't always mean they've had too much to drink.

No, being loud isn't always down to alcohol but if it's loud enough to disturb other passengers, then I think you'll find it's very much against the rules.

4) Withdraw alcohol if/when someone starts misbehaving. Again, misbehaving doesn't generally include loud behaviour. Withdrawing alcohol to quieten down a group doesn't work. However, if someone shows signs of unsafe behaviour then that is where you start getting serious and where withdrawing drink is necassary

By which time, it's usually too late and you have one heck of a problem and possibly a divert on your hands!

5) The vast majority of onboard incidents caused by drunken behaviour involve the consumption of own alcohol and believe it or not it tends to be individuals/couples who have been nice and pie one minute and the next suddenly turn nasty.

6) Some older couples can drink just as much. On Manchester flights it's not uncommon to serve the little old couple going on holiday 2 bottles of wine washed down with 2 double G&T on the first bar service. But their demographic means they are unlikely to be loud with their mates.

However, I'll definitely agree with that! It's often the sweet little old lady with her G&T's that will catch you out while you've been busy watching the stag group in the back.

Ruling with an iron fist doesn't automatically involve acting like a Sergeant Major, easyflyer83. It's about being aware, using your judgement and experience and if needed, making tough decisions.

We have certain routes that are notorious for this sort of behaviour. If I hear of certain groups that have been a bit rowdy in the terminal, I catch them them as they come down the jetty, before they even get on the aircraft and have a quiet word. I'm always pleasant but make sure that they are left under no illusions as to what the consequences of bad behaviour will be. If I then receive a mouthful of abuse, they never make it through the door. In the majority of cases, most are happy to agree to the conditions, including the possibility of no alcohol to be served on board. Anyone found drinking their own during the flight has it confiscated and yes, I have done that more than once. As with every situation, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Unfortunately, drunken disturbances can and do happen on all airlines around the world, legacy and lo-cost alike. It's not just a Ryanair thing. Some are completely unpredictable and come out of the blue but most are helped along by crew that just haven't got the confidence or experience to deal with conflict. I learned my trade, so to say, by plying the charter routes for many years and learning from very senior crew that had seen every possible scenario you could think of. I made my mistakes - and there were many - as a junior when there were senior crew around to pick up the pieces before slapping me with a used teabag. I then moved on to a legacy airline and eventually became senior crew myself.

These days, within a year or so of starting flying, you can be a Purser/CM/CSM or whatever else you want to call it, and be the most experienced member of cabin crew on an aircraft. In my opinion, it's just not long enough! We all know it's easy being a senior when it's all going right but it's when it all goes pear shaped that all that experience comes into play. When you do then make a mistake and possible misjudge a situation, such as how much someone has had to drink, you have the knowledge and confidence to sort it out.

[Thomas coupling]

EasyFlyer - you sadden me with your attitude. It strikes me you are happy to choose the lesser of 2 evils, when in fact they are still both wrong (serving alcohol to drunks / letting drunks drink their own). I suspect it is atitudes like yours that allows this kind of behaviour to establish itself in the lower echelons of the gutteral airlines.
I have never, ever experienced this sort of behaviour in premier division airlines - why is that. Because the cabin crew are well trained, respected members of their industry. They are able to interpret situations early and make professional decisions based on common sense/decency and above all - safety.
Alas - attitudes like yours will undoubtedly infect others working with you, perpetuating the reality that is so evident in 3rd division airlines like RA.
God help us. :ugh:

[easyflyer83]

To be fair I think my comments have been misrepresented or misunderstood.

Yet another good reminder to myself why I avoid the likes of RYR like the plague. Easyflyer83's comments certainly doesn't encourage me to fly EZY either. I am however very grateful to these airlines for keeping those low life idiots away from the carriers I fly on http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Generally speaking you will find it is route specific and not airline specific. Also, most air-rage incidents (alcohol-fuelled) tend to be business class pax.

Only considered? If they are refusing to sit down, how are you able to give cabin secure? Sorry but that's a definite no go. Back to the terminal and off they go, with a little assistance from the police if need be.

In the situation described in the OP, the guys must have sat down for take off. We can say whatever we like about Ryanair and their crew, much of it justified, but I can't see the crew just allowing it. If it's after take off roll commences, then there is not a lot the crew can do other than use the PA. No point risking their own safety.


Quote:
2) Serving alcohol from the bar helps to prevent their own large bottles of tax/duty free spirits etc being cracked open. Invariably these days passengers are warned about drinking their own alcohol and if you withdraw the bar drinks then you will have them drinking their own for sure. You are joking, aren't you?

If you withdraw alcohol from a group just because they are being loud and if they have their own drink you are just inviting them to drink their own. Being as experienced as you are you'll know that the vast majority of incidences involve consumption of own alcohol. You have obviously moved on to legacy (I started legacy and moved onto LCC after) so let me tell you how difficult it is to control people drinking their own alcohol. People are so sly with it now that you don't realise until they are either very drunk or you find the empty bottle.
At least by serving the airlines alcohol you can ration it.....or in extreme circumstances, cut it off.

How do you know you have control? People are, by their very nature, unpredictable at the best of times. Add in alcohol and possible drugs and the situation can turn from fun to nasty and downright dangerous in a matter of seconds.

However, I'll definitely agree with that! It's often the sweet little old lady with her G&T's that will catch you out while you've been busy watching the stag group in the back.

Absolutely. You know as well as I do you could serve G&T's to that little old lady until the cows come home and nobody would bat an eye lid.


I know when I have control and when things are going too far. Carrott and stick tends to work really well. You have a laugh with them, you serve them alcohol but you make sure they know who is in charge and this makes them a lot easier to control. Like you say, you don't always know when things are about to kick off but up until that point you know whether you are in control or not.

No, being loud isn't always down to alcohol but if it's loud enough to disturb other passengers, then I think you'll find it's very much against the rules.

Again, it depends on what type of flight you're operating. In the Summer months half the aircraft can be loud and the vast majority of pax find it perfectly acceptable. Have a small but loud stag party on a Thursday flight to a City destination and many of the passengers will find it unacceptable.

In the latter I especially I will always ask them to be keep the noise down. Most times they will but naturally the noise level increases again. Do we stop serving alcohol just because they're being loud but aren't showing signs of being drunk? Do we divert? Of course not.

I will always ask for language to be toned down.

By which time, it's usually too late and you have one heck of a problem and possibly a divert on your hands!

Just over 8 years of flying, 2 of those as No.1 and i've never had to divert other than for 1 medical. Only ever had to have the police meet the aircraft once and that was due to a stolen credit card being used.

We have certain routes that are notorious for this sort of behaviour. If I hear of certain groups that have been a bit rowdy in the terminal, I catch them them as they come down the jetty, before they even get on the aircraft and have a quiet word. I'm always pleasant but make sure that they are left under no illusions as to what the consequences of bad behaviour will be. If I then receive a mouthful of abuse, they never make it through the door. In the majority of cases, most are happy to agree to the conditions, including the possibility of no alcohol to be served on board. Anyone found drinking their own during the flight has it confiscated and yes, I have done that more than once. As with every situation, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

You do nothing that I don't do but sometimes you are going to get lively flights where lads (and girls) are loud. And i stand by my assertion that loud groups doesn't automatically mean they're drunk, it doesn't automatically mean that a kick off is imminent and it certainly doesn't mean that those passengers are being unsafe. Your evening PMI's etc are quite often rowdy regardless of what you do. That is the nature of the beast. With respect, I think a few sectors back on some of these routes would remind you of what things are really like. As a side note, we're not allowed to confiscate peoples possessions.....even though I have on the odd occasion. I think it would be the same rule at your carrier too as there is some kind of legality surrounding that.

These days, within a year or so of starting flying, you can be a Purser/CM/CSM or whatever else you want to call it, and be the most experienced member of cabin crew on an aircraft. In my opinion, it's just not long enough! We all know it's easy being a senior when it's all going right but it's when it all goes pear shaped that all that experience comes into play. When you do then make a mistake and possible misjudge a situation, such as how much someone has had to drink, you have the knowledge and confidence to sort it out.

Whilst I think a year is somewhat of an exaggeration I am inclined to agree. It's not rocket science no matter what people say but experience really helps. I got no.1 after almost 6 years of flying which is still quite quick. That said, without sounding 'cocky', I am pretty good at what I do.

EasyFlyer - you sadden me with your attitude. It strikes me you are happy to choose the lesser of 2 evils, when in fact they are still both wrong (serving alcohol to drunks / letting drunks drink their own). I suspect it is atitudes like yours that allows this kind of behaviour to establish itself in the lower echelons of the gutteral airlines.

Well i'm genuinely sorry you feel that way. However, I don't allow consumption of own alcohol. I don't serve alcohol to drunks and no where have I said that......but by the same token i don't withdraw alcohol just because someone is talking loudly or being a bit rowdy. Sometimes that is half the aircraft. And thirdly, I am offended by your description of the airline I work for. It's not gutteral and low cost doesn't automatically mean that.


I have never, ever experienced this sort of behaviour in premier division airlines - why is that. Because the cabin crew are well trained, respected members of their industry. They are able to interpret situations early and make professional decisions based on common sense/decency and above all - safety.
Alas - attitudes like yours will undoubtedly infect others working with you, perpetuating the reality that is so evident in 3rd division airlines like RA.
God help us. :ugh:

That is just plane rude. I was trained to BA standards with a BA affiliate and I work with crew that have flown for EK, QF, BD etc etc. There are crew I fly with who have years of experience and to generalise them purely by their employer is not only pig ignorant but grossly misleading and misrepresented. The same can be said for BA mixed fleet who have some inexperienced flyers but that too would be a misrepresentation and in actual fact from recent experience, their customer service skills seemed to better than their worldwide counterparts. Meanwhile for it's faults, Easyjet crew tend to be highly regarded.


I think you need to re-read my post. At no point was I dismissing or indeed condoning the alledged events on your sister in laws flight. My post was intended as more of an 'editorial' as to the intricacies of dealing with rowdy flights. At no point did I say i serve drunks but more that withdrawing alcohol isn't always the best thing to do. Rowdy flights happen and a flight that is rowdy to some passengers isn't always rowdy to others, it also depends where you are flying to and indeed the time of day. Please don't judge me on who I work for and how I do my job. I am not lying when I say that I have never had an incident on my flight other than the odd low level matter that has been resolved onboard. I think that speaks for itself, both in terms of my airline and how I perform my duties.

[Hotel Tango]

Of course there are incidents on the legacy carriers too. They are however few and far between. I'm not talking about air rage but about how these drunken holiday louts can make one's journey very unpleasant. In all my years of Business Class travel I have only ever once witnessed a hopelessly drunk passenger, and that was on Concorde. He got loud but not aggressive. The CC did a great job and expertly managed to calm him down whilst keeping him (and the rest of us) happy.

[easyflyer83]

Generally speaking, the 'offending' routes tend not to be operated by the legacies. Sure there are some Cities where the LCC's tend to pick up the stags but these are on one or two services around the weekend.

There is nothing wrong with your choice of airline but to generalise on passenger type is completely misguided. Your average LCC passenger flying LGW-MAD or LTN-NCE etc are not that unlike passengers on legacy carriers. I would have thought being on pprune you're be able to appreciate that. One anecdote I head a while back was that if you took a look at LTN long stay you would get a fair idea of the type of passenger that uses such airlines as the ones that fly into that airport.

[ExXB]

Jetset Lady,
Thank you. I would be very honoured to fly on one of your flights.

(even though I've sworn off a certain airline based in a watershed due to poor service recovery - nothing to do with onboard service)

:ok:

[Piltdown Man]

Legally, it's the captain. But the task of managing the cabin is delegated to the cabin crew. But the captain also has to make sure they realise that will be fully supported with the decisions they take. This normally enables them to confidently handle most situations.

I suppose you can say I fly for a legacy (but 'lowish' fare) airline and to date (16 years) I have not had any problems with groups of loud lads, drunks etc. I've denied boarding to a few and personally "briefed" others. All others were dealt with by the cabin crew. Obviously we have had problems with a few individuals, but these are very much the exception. Overall, I consider that people like to fly in a civilised environment so that is what we try to create. So if you wish to fly with rowdy groups of drunks and yobbish illiterate half-wits, don't fly with me, fly with a "low-cost" carrier.

[Hotel Tango]

easyflyer, I'm not generalising on type of passenger. I would say that the vast majority of pax on RYR and EZY want nothing more than a quiet and pleasant flight. The problem is that you are more likely to come across loud foul-mouthed drunk louts on the cheapest LCCs than on others. I agree that particular routes will suffer more than others. As one who lives outside the UK and uses German LCCs I can also say that the problem is a lot more prevalent with UK pax than other nationalities. I have flown with high spirited groups of German youth and found them polite, respectful and able to have fun without making everybody else's flight a misery.

[Thomas coupling]

At the end of the day, it's all about cabin crew education.
I suspect (and I stand readily corrected) the LCC's do not 'invest' in their staff too deeply, in this regard. Of course they teach their staff the legal basics but how mouch time and effort is expended in teaching them to defuse situations? If you pay peanuts you get......... etc etc.
LCC Cabin crew get paid on an hourly basis only when they turn up for work, correct? I would even go as far as to hazard that some are self employed so the Airline can minimse overheads even more (Though I do seem to recall that there are legalities in making everyone who works for you - self employed!)
The reason why legacy and higher echelon operators don't experience this problem is:
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
(b) because the CC strategically assess the situation early before it escalates.

A bunch of DRUNKS heading for the boarding gate need to be intercepted BEFORE they get on board - simples! It doesn't take a professor to work that one out.
IF some get onboard, then the work load is greater - managing them but nonetheless it is manageable. Oh - the Captain needs to be told BEFOREHAND, so he/she can assist in the scheme of things.

That trip my sis in law went on, together with the other 186 passengers now has a permanent correlation between lager louts/disturbed flights/LCC's.

NOT good for the industry on the whole, but disasterous for that Airline's long term prospects.

EasyFlyer83 - I repeat: this behaviour is ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE and not for compromise.:*

[angels]

Hotel Tango - Concorde eh?

Even if he was a complete tosser you would only have had a couple of hours with him rather than seven.....sigh.

A bit of Concorde-misser licence there, but you get my drift....

[easyflyer83]

Regarding pay. Easyjet are now amongst the best paid crew in the UK if you were to start today. On average an Easyjet F/A earns 24K before tax compared to around 18-20K at VS or BA mixed fleet. On the latter two that also includes allowances that are basically expenses for being down route.

Easyjet crew aren't paid hourly but by sector, BA mixed fleet are paid hourly and so was I when i worked at a BA franchise. I'm not trying to prove a point when I say that I earned a lot more as a junior crew member at Easyjet than I did at the BA franchise.

A typical return to the canaries is an 11 hour duty. 4 years ago at the franchise junior crew received £2.60 an hour which equals £28.60 in sector/flight pay. That is roughly what BA mixed fleet earn now. At Easyjet your F/A rank earns £79. All these examples are on top of basic pay and any commission paid.

So the paying peanuts getting monkeys, atleast at Easyjet, is utter rubbish. I sometimes think employing some 19 year olds is perhaps a little too young but there are many older, experienced crew who work for us and as I alluded to earlier they have multiple airlines under their belt whether that be full service, charter and indeed low cost. We even had a lovely lady who worked for the Qatar royal flight. However you pretty much glossed over that. That is Easyjet, I don't know about Ryanair but please don't tarnish my colleagues with the same brush.

The reason why legacy and higher echelon operators don't experience this problem is:
(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.
(b) because the CC strategically assess the situation early before it escalates.


The main reason they don't get those passengers is because they don't operate LPL-PMI, MAN-IBZ, LGW-HER etc etc. You'll find that on LGW-VIE, LGW-MAD etc the passenger profile isn't an awful lot different to some legacies.

(a) because they charge more to fly with them, thus keeping the dregs of society to a minimum.

I find that comment offensive. Again, you have totally misrepresented what my point was. There is a difference between a bit rowdy and unruly. I never said I allowed unruly behaviour on my flights. A group of lads going on their first holiday abroad and being a bit rowdy does not make them the dregs of society!!!

A bunch of DRUNKS heading for the boarding gate need to be intercepted BEFORE they get on board - simples! It doesn't take a professor to work that one out.
IF some get onboard, then the work load is greater - managing them but nonetheless it is manageable. Oh - the Captain needs to be told BEFOREHAND, so he/she can assist in the scheme of things.


Drunks in terminal; we often rely on passengers to give us information. I can assure you that they are assessed. Being loud does not mean they are automatically offloaded but they are assessed on how they speak in terms of whether they are abusive, are they slurring. You also look at how they walk and whether you can smell.

That trip my sis in law went on, together with the other 186 passengers now has a permanent correlation between lager louts/disturbed flights/LCC's.

Again, I never condoned the behaviour on the Ryanair flight in question and the examples i talk about are nothing like that. I was talking about generally rowdy flights in the height of Summer and the challenges they can bring both in terms of passenger profile and ways with managing them.
If thats your own interpretation of LCC then so be it but if you think every flight comes anything close to the Ryanair example then you are very very deluded.

NOT good for the industry on the whole, but disasterous for that Airline's long term prospects.

Really? So why is Easyjet so profitable during one of the harshest economic environment the industry has ever seen? Why are they managing to keep load factors high whilst increasing yields? Easyjets prospects are incredibly good. Again I can't speak for Ryanair but I'm certainly not a fan.

EasyFlyer83 - I repeat: this behaviour is ENTIRELY UNACCEPTABLE and not for compromise.

Then we have to agree to disagree. Withdrawing alcohol at the first sign of a group of guys or girls and even families getting a bit loud is an over reaction, there is a better way of handling them. For the last time I have never once advocated serving alcohol to drunks and neither have i said that plying copious amounts is a good solution.

Certain flights at certain times of the year can be lively....fact. You can get people standing in the aisles chatting and laughing, sometimes being a bit loud and whilst some see this as being totally unacceptable I don't believe that it always is. And it certainly doesn't mean that alcohol should be cut off on that basis. Indeed it can cause further problems. That was my fundamental point. I never likened my experiences to the Ryanair incident.

[jetset lady]

Oh dear. I don't think your comments have been misrepresented or misunderstood but if they have, that may be because you keep contradicting yourself! For example;

Generally speaking you will find it is route specific and not airline specific. Also, most air-rage incidents (alcohol-fuelled) tend to be business class pax.

....followed by

With respect, I think a few sectors back on some of these routes would remind you of what things are really like.

But apparently it's not airline specific and it's the our business class pax that cause all the problem? So why should I fly some of these routes again to "remind me what it's like?" As it happens, in the last month, I have operated 2 late night Friday IBZ's and various other Med destinations. Probably pretty much the same as you. Do they count? :rolleyes:

If you withdraw alcohol from a group just because they are being loud and if they have their own drink you are just inviting them to drink their own. Being as experienced as you are you'll know that the vast majority of incidences involve consumption of own alcohol. You have obviously moved on to legacy (I started legacy and moved onto LCC after) so let me tell you how difficult it is to control people drinking their own alcohol. People are so sly with it now that you don't realise until they are either very drunk or you find the empty bottle.
At least by serving the airlines alcohol you can ration it.....or in extreme circumstances, cut it off.

I'm sorry but it doesn't matter how often you try to justify this behaviour, It borders on criminal stupidity! "Oh well, I'd rather they drank our alcohol than their own" is not going to hold up in any court in the land. If you do not feel confident in your ability to know when people are drinking their own or possibly topping up the "rations" you have served them from their own, then you are not fit to be a senior crew member on any aircraft in the world. As for..

As a side note, we're not allowed to confiscate peoples possessions.....even though I have on the odd occasion. I think it would be the same rule at your carrier too as there is some kind of legality surrounding that.

For heavens sake! Think about it, easyflyer83! If someone is drinking from their own alcohol on board an aircraft and becoming drunk - which is against the ANO, don't forget - then not only are you allowed to confiscate the alcohol, you are legally obliged to do so, with the proviso that it must be returned to the passenger at the end of the flight. As you yourself said, it's not rocket science!

I know when I have control and when things are going too far. Carrott and stick tends to work really well. You have a laugh with them, you serve them alcohol but you make sure they know who is in charge and this makes them a lot easier to control. Like you say, you don't always know when things are about to kick off but up until that point you know whether you are in control or not

But if things kick off, then you didn't have control after all did you! None of us has will ever have full control over what a person may do on-board an aircraft. Well, Derren Brown might but most of us aren't Derren Brown. Anyone that thinks they have control are lulled risks being lulled into a false sense of security.

You are right in that no one should judge you on who you work for, although you seem to have done just that with me. I have said, this isn't a lo-co V schedule. We will all come across these situations no matter what the pretty colour and pattern on the outside of the aircraft. It's how they are dealt with that matters.

That said, without sounding 'cocky', I am pretty good at what I do.

Good? Or lucky?

[easyflyer83]

Fair point about the one contradiction I made. However, regardless of cause, legacies have their fair share of air rage incidents. Further to that though, rowdy doesn't mean unruly but rowdy flights tend to be the routes that legacies don't operate. So in retrospect as I write, it wasn't that big a contradiction.

With regards to your med flights. I said maybe you should do a few sectors BACK on some of those routes. You even quoted me on thy so atleast read and understand what you quote.

We're told that we cannot confiscate alcohol. We do from time to
Time when it is really necessary. I don't think the ANO's cover confiscating alcohol.

Others have turned this into a LCC Vs Legacy.

We don't agree. My flights operate extremely well and I am confident that I har good judgement. Never perfect but no one is. The crucial point is that I manage my flights very well. I know it, whether you choose to believe it is, as always in these debates, up to you.

[OutsideCAS]

We're told that we cannot confiscate alcohol

The aircraft commander's power of authority delegates you the power to confiscate the alcohol under rules concerning the Tokyo Convention. If the rules of consumption on-board are being broken, confiscation is allowed.

[t211]

Having read through this thread as a Retired 146Driver, The ANO covers all of this DO YOU EVER READ IT If I remember rightly you shall not be drunk on an A/c Also the problem with these sort of people Is they seem to get past the Gate room staff & then the problem ends up on the A/c which Is much harder to deal with . or am i missing something hear.

[jetset lady]

Thanks, OutsideCAS and t211. Easyflyer83, who is telling you you can't confiscate alcohol for the duration of the flight, if necessary? That's quite worrying if this sort of thing is being trained.

With regards to your med flights. I said you should do a few sectors BACK on some of these routes. You even quoted me on thy so atleast read and understand what you quote.

What on earth are you talking about? :confused:

This thread started as the usual Ryanair knocking thread, a bandwagon that you appeared to gleefully jump upon if the last sentence of your original post is anything to go by.

But then, ironically, it all backfired for you quite dramatically when your own lack of knowledge and common sense dragged your current airline in to the fray. That is when it became a bit, rather unfairly in my opinion, lo-co versus legacy. As I have said all along. Trouble can and does happen on all types of flights, on all types of aircraft, with all types of demographic.

Let's face it, this isn't the first time recently that you have jumped in feet first and without thinking it through. Last time, I think it was when you declared an aircraft could land themselves in the event of a double pilot incap. One of your very good and well respected colleagues, lowcostdolly tried to help you out of that pickle but you still stumbled on in your own little world. You would do well to listen to LCD, easyflyer. You could learn a lot from her. (Even if we haven't always agreed on everything in the past.....;))

Thank-you, ExXB. I also would be honoured to welcome you onboard. You never know. One day, maybe that time will actually happen...:)

[easyflyer83]

This thread started as the usual Ryanair knocking thread, a bandwagon that you appeared to gleefully jump upon if the last sentence of your original post is anything to go by.

Generally speaking I am not a Ryanair fan. I've never denied that. I do however conceed that they're are hugely successful. I don't tar all other LCC's with the same brush. I also don't generalise all LCC carriers or indeed legacies for that matter. Neither do I describe crew as 'monkeys'. All of the above came from someone else.

Let's face it, this isn't the first time recently that you have jumped in feet first and without thinking it through. Last time, I think it was when you declared an aircraft could land themselves in the event of a double pilot incap. One of your very good and well respected colleagues, lowcostdolly tried to help you out of that pickle but you still stumbled on in your own little world. You would do well to listen to LCD, easyflyer. You could learn a lot from her. (Even if we haven't always agreed on everything in the past.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif)

I don't recall commenting on those debates. Luckily I remembered reading the post and I also came across a similar thread using the search function. Neither contains any contribution from myself.

http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/492135-emergency-scenario.html

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/184407-double-pilot-incapacitation-ezy.html

Were you mistaken? I can't see any posts from me on either of those. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that, I contribute a lot and don't always remember which posts i comment on. Please atleast double check before accusing me. It only took me a couple of minutes to verify (or not in this case).

I've said my piece and stand by it. Theres a difference between unruly behaviour and generally being loud and jovial, as I keep saying :ugh:
I probably deal unruly behaviour is probably dealt with in the same way as you. Dealing with loud passengers I like to think I do a good job and I have encountered few problems thus far. We all have out ways of dealing with things so lets leave it at that. I'm not debating any further. We disagree.

[jetset lady]

No, you're totally correct and I do apologise. You weren't involved in that thread at all. That was another ej crew member according to their profile. I was confusing it with the "separating men and children" thread.

Out of curiosity, why are you not a fan of FR?

[easyflyer83]

I just think they show contempt for their customers and they take low cost too far. I agree there are alot of people who just love to 'bash' Ryanair and will often fail to even acknowledge their success. I see Ryanair as a success story but often wonder if their ultra low cost strategy is sustainable at a time when I believe the distinction between 'normal' low cost and legacy will become blurred

Anecdotal, but the amount 'you lot are so much better than Ryanair' is perhaps the most heard comment I personally get as Easyjet crew. It's been a while since I last flew FR personally.

I can understand therefore if people dislike Ryanair (or aby airline) but to tar every low cost airline with the same brush is offensive. I think there has been offensive comments about low cost crew (even though many of us have legacy experience and often years of it) and I also think there have been some snobbish and damn right offensive comments about our passengers. A group of lads getting a bit loud when they are off on their hols coupled with the fact they are flying low cost does not make them the 'dregs of society' etc.

[lowcostdolly]

OMG easyflyer would you care for a shovel or are you OK trashing the loco's on the pax forum as a PU totally unaided?

Loud or drunk?? Who are we to say as CC at either ground level or at 35,000 feet? In fact we are not allowed to say somebody is intoxicated as it's not PC and we have no proof until the police involve a FME to take the relevant tests. It is us, as cabin managers, through and with the support of the Captain who make the decision involve the police re their behaviour. That is CRM 101.

What we are allowed to say though is a pax is breaching the ANO's and as a PU we can and indeed should tell the Captain be that on boarding or taxi. If the offending pax/groups don't buckle up and shut up on the ground (a reasonable instruction from the crew as per the ANO's) then call the police and have them off loaded.....end of!!

Take them, complete with attitude, to to 35,000 and they are a complete liability in the air to both pax, crew and company which could have been avoided if only concerns were acted on rather than "considered" when informng or not the aircraft commander of a potential problem identified at ground level.

My experience of EZY captains is they always listen to the opinion of their cabin managers and the ground staff re potential problems and they don't take these problems in the air on that flight.

However, as CCM, if you fail to identify this at ground level or indeed tolerate and ignore this that is your call. Looks like that is what the FR PU did here.

In the air easyflyer these disruptive pax will fuel their alchohol source from the cheapest possible which isn't our bar whatever you choose to say re selling from this. They will drink from under their seat, purchased from duty free or not, but will purchase on board as well for appearences sake.....usually a few cokes or lemonades to mix with the vodka and the token beers:=

We have the right to confiscate their alchohol source providing we hand it back to them on disembarking. I'm amazed you don't do this and curtail the sale of alchohol to loud and disruptive pax.

Our Captains will support you in this action but you need to talk to them as they are in command of the aircraft. You are in command of the cabin as delegated but but you need to refer for support.

A good CM recognises this, learns and grows.

Clearly you have not recognised this yet easyflyer but wherever they get this alchohol the effects are multiplied at 35,000. What you as the CCM could have dealt with as a minor inconvienience/delay at ground level is now a major headache in the air for a the flight crew, the pax on board and the company.

To get back to the OP's question Who is in charge?

It's the Captain of any flight in any airline. He/she is relient totally on the info provided by the cabin manager re cabin issues however.

[easyflyer83]

Mod edit - personal I deal with it my way as cabin manager and thus far I have not had any real problems. I am well aware that I can (usually) count on the Captain but I have rarely needed it as I have control. When I do need it, I utilise the Captains authority. You should know as well as I do that some of our routes can be 'party buses' (not my term) and depending on the pax profile I exercise common sense and above all, discretion. That, I find, works fine.

Now I have double checked the manual and confiscating alcohol, I was incorrect but trainers did, and possibly still do, tell Crew they cannot confiscate it. I have, only a few weeks ago on a flight half full of squaddies, confiscated alcohol at a time when I thought this wasn't company policy. That shows that I manage my flights effectively. I have also never said that I allow passengers to drink own alcohol. I did however say that I'd rather pax drink alcohol that I had served them than drink their own, a policy I still stand by. You of all people should know how bloody hard it is to catch people drinking their own booze. How many times have you come across empty bottles on turn around???

A couple of people have taken my posts completely the wrong way and they have also judged me on my performance with no real evidence in which to substantiate it. To her credit, jester lady has PM'd me and realised this even of we don't agree so please afford me that courtesy too because like I said.... I'm known to be a very competent CM at my base. Mod edit - personal

[TightSlot]

Please, everybody involved, keep this away from the personal.

I have to confess that this kind of issue is one of those that eventually persuaded me to leave LoCo/Charter flying after a very long time and move to Sched/Longhaul. During the final 6 months of my charter work, I had 15 customers refused boarding at the gate, 12 removed immediately prior to departure, 7 arrested on arrival and I was punched twice. All this excludes the routine incidents involving low-level drunken behaviour and abuse. For the longest time, I justified going to work by thinking of the other customers - those that sat peacefully, behaved well and with courtesy and respect and were as appalled by the actions of the few as the crew: They, of course, were in the overwhelming majority. There is, however, only so much you can take.

Decisions about the potential for trouble from a group are complicated, and require the application of both the rules and an element of experience, skill and judgement. Most of the time, you will be correct, but occasionally you get it wrong and when you do there will be no shortage of armchair experts who will criticise that decision with hindsight from the safety of an office, or the anonymity of PPRuNe.

Such incidents on Sched/Longhaul are rare, although they do occur from time to time, and, interestingly, are as likely to be in the premium cabins as in economy.

I came to the conclusion long ago that the real source of the problem is British social culture. Doubtless many will disagree, but it has been my experience that these kinds of problems are far less likely to occur on aircraft operating on routes that do not begin or end, in Britain.

[givemewings]

You might be interested to know then, without going into specifics, that the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...

Then again that might be more due to size and length of routes flown than of any tendency towards violence. I think Long Haul actually has more potential for things to kick off to that point because the durations of people to be 'stuck' are much longer, and people feel very cramped whereas probably don't mind so much on a 2 or 3 hour flight

[DaveReidUK]

the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...

"Most" ?

Is that in terms of absolute numbers ? or per passengers flown ? or per passenger miles ?

Do airlines really collaborate with each other in collating and publishing league tables ?

I'm not doubting your assertion, just interested in what your source is.

And of course in the identity of the league leader. :hmm:

[TightSlot]

...the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...
So who then, and as mentioned above, is that in absolute terms, or as a ratio per pax carried?
...Long Haul actually has more potential for things to kick off to that point because the durations of people to be 'stuck' are much longer, and people feel very cramped whereas probably don't mind so much on a 2 or 3 hour flight
I'm afraid that is at variance with my experience.

[lowcostdolly]

I'm afraid that is at variance with my experience.

Same here!!

On the loco's it kicks off mainly due to "experiences" at the bar pre flight which are not recognised on boarding by a vigilent CM IMHO.

Then of course they have been to duty free and purchased their own booze......:uhoh:

Then we have some CM's who Mod edit - personal they think they have "control" over these not so clever dicks who disrupt flights for the majority of pax who just want a nice in flight experience to HER, IBZ etc.

Nobody has control over a drunk. They don't even have control over themselves.

As CM's it is our job to ensure our majority pax get this and not continue to fuel the minority from the company bar and yes that means commision loss for us, as operating crew, unfortunately.

Mod edit - personal

I was not questioning your personal performance just the fact you don't seem up to date with the company manuel, the ANO's or the Tokyo convention re this issue yet you are, by your own admission, a CM who frequently operates "party buses" and given your base I have complete empathy with that!!

Party buses are just that. A bus in the air to get to said party in wherever which does not compromise safety en route on an EZY flight.

[radeng]

I have been doing 40 or more flights a year for the last 10 years, and amassed a lot of miles prior to that. All on established airlines, and I've never seen a case of drunk, awkward passengers, assaults or other troubles.

I must have been lucky. I do make a point of thanking CC and flight crew on leaving, even when (as on most US based airlines, the service is cr*p). After all, they are just as much qualified professionals in their field as I am in mine. In that time, I've had one go around (big deal - interesting, but that's all), and two pax taken ill and really well looked after by the CC.

So are there specific routes where trouble occurs? Or have I been lucky?

[DaveReidUK]

"IATA's statistics on unruly passengers are obtained from the Safety Trend Evaluation, Analysis and Data Exchange System (STEADES), a database owned and managed by IATA; to which Member airlines submit periodic reports, including such types of incidents. Statistics obtained and analysed from STEADES include only unidentified data sent by the 143 airlines who participate."

[lowcostdolly]

radeng in the UK there are certainly routes trouble occurs on and a savvy SCCM knows this when it lands on their roster in any airline.

I (my own edit)wouldn't throw fuel on the fire by plying potential troublemakers with alcohol from the company bar however.... Mod edit - personal

Tightslot I cannot even recall what I said which warranted a mod edit and could have caused offense. Please would you pm me so I can ensure this does not happen again.

[easyflyer83]

I (my own edit)wouldn't throw fuel on the fire by plying potential troublemakers with alcohol from the company bar however....

I never said I did. My point was that a bit of give and take. You know aswell as I do that some of our flights are quite lively. I'm not talking about IBZ's (never done one) which by all accounts are pretty outrageous, i'm talking some of your other Med routes. I have no problem dealing with unruly passengers (again there is a difference between loud and unruly) but by the same token i'm not afraid to admit that I am not one of these finger wagging crew members who, from my own experience, have either made a situation worse or upset a lot of people who were actually causing no harm.

So are there specific routes where trouble occurs? Or have I been lucky?

Evening IBZ's and several other routes around the Med during the months May-September have the potential to be pretty lively. You may well have experienced them but your tolerence may well be different to others. Occasionally, and more commonly on IBZ's, things have got out of hand. It is one of the few destinations in the med i haven't even touched in my years of flying but it is generally dreaded by the crews that fly UK-IBZ.


Party buses are just that. A bus in the air to get to said party in wherever which does not compromise safety en route on an EZY flight

Never allowed anyone to compromise safety on my flight. Allowing a group to have a couple of drinks and be in high spirits, a bit of banter is not compromising safety.....not one bit. From experience, you'll always get one or two passengers who will deem that to be unacceptable behaviour but if you manage it in the way that I have explained you will keep most people happy. Again, you are immediately relating to an IBZ type flight which are unruly and have at times compromised safety. Mine isn't which has been my whole bloody point.

Decisions about the potential for trouble from a group are complicated, and require the application of both the rules and an element of experience, skill and judgement. Most of the time, you will be correct, but occasionally you get it wrong and when you do there will be no shortage of armchair experts who will criticise that decision with hindsight from the safety of an office, or the anonymity of PPRuNe.

Agreed

I have to confess that this kind of issue is one of those that eventually persuaded me to leave LoCo/Charter flying after a very long time and move to Sched/Longhaul. During the final 6 months of my charter work, I had 15 customers refused boarding at the gate, 12 removed immediately prior to departure, 7 arrested on arrival and I was punched twice. All this excludes the routine incidents involving low-level drunken behaviour and abuse. For the longest time, I justified going to work by thinking of the other customers - those that sat peacefully, behaved well and with courtesy and respect and were as appalled by the actions of the few as the crew: They, of course, were in the overwhelming majority. There is, however, only so much you can take.


Sorry to hear that. I know trouble does occur but I haven't experienced anything more nasty than a few cross words with someone who has taken the piss. Maybe i don't get any grief because i don't look the steretypical male crew member (sorry, no offence....I am gay as it happens).
I don't agree that it is restricted to low cost at all and it is only restricted to charter because they tend to operate almost exclusively around the Med. Few legacies fly these routes and the passenger profile on European City routes on certain loco's can be very similar to that of a full service carrier.

So it's not the sector of the industry but specific to the types of destinations, narrowed down more to a particular time of the year. There will be some crew who dread the Summer holiday flights to certain destinations, some with good reason. Me personally, they're among my favourites. They can present challenges, they can be hard work but they can also be a lot of fun and the majority of my passengers seem happy which is why I guess I am confident about my performance.

Some of your new, particularly young female crew, might not have flying in their blood but for those that do a Summer season around the Med can be the making of a crew member.

[Piltdown Man]

Tightslot has it spot on:

...the real source of the problem is British social culture.

Our culture is one which appears to tollerate drunken oafs and fails to take action when their actions offend others. So when these people fly with my company they are genuinely surprised when they are told they are told to shut up, offloaded, barred from travelling, arrested, imprisoned etc. On orange flights it forces the likes of easyflier83 to really work hard to keep her flight under control. She shouldn't have to do it. Where I am we only ask that people do as they are told and allow their fellow passengers to enjoy their flight. As has been mentioned above, it's only a tiny minority who make other people's lives a misery - but their effect on some flights is totally disproportionate to the numbers involved.

[TightSlot]

givemewings

Would you mind responding to the previous questions from myself and DaveReidUK. To refresh your memory, you posted that...

...the airline with the most in-flight restraints of pax by crew is not British/Aus/US...

and our question was...

Is that in terms of absolute numbers ? or per passengers flown ? or per passenger miles ?

Preferably accompanied by a name for the airline, and the source (Presumably it isn't secret?)

I look forward to your response. Thanks.

[DaveReidUK]

On orange flights it forces the likes of easyflier83 to really work hard to keep her flight under control. She shouldn't have to do it.

Are you reading too much into easyflier83's statement

I don't look the stereotypical male crew member

I don't recall cross-dressing being mentioned. :*

[lowcostdolly]

Some of your new, particularly young female crew, might not have flying in their blood but for those that do a Summer season around the Med can be the making of a crew member.

No sexism there then:ugh: And you a male crew member easyflyer tut tut :=

I am not so young female crew and as SCCM have done more med circuits than you who apparently has not even done some at all to be able to comment in an informed way on this thread.

Here is the bottom line Hun. As CM's we identify problems on the ground and preferably at the gate with good comms with the dispatcher. We then pass these onto the Captain who is in charge of these flights and together we make a decision. That is CRM 101.

Of course some will be able to make it to the plane in a reasonable manner and shut up for the safety demo. Then they make it into the air assuming you let them get up on taxi without telling the Captain

You think you are "in control" in the air of a drunk??. You need to ditch the ego trip right now easyflyer as you are on a pax forum. Nobody controls a drunk and the person who actually has control in the flight deck at whatever stage of flight or on the ground is actually beyond your control as the CM. You report to that person.

Get a grip......it's not all about you and your performance on this thread. See the bigger picture as many pax will due to your posts and will probably never fly orange again out of your base. I know I wouldn't as keep plying the loud, lively and unruly with alchohol is inviting trouble and all because you feel you have control as a CM??.

Personally I just wouldn't sell them alchohol end of at the risk of being that "finger wagging" crew member. When they then order 10 cokes/tonics and lemonades with ice it sort of alerts you to the fact they might just possibly be drinking their own booze and makes all crew more vigilent provided this is communicated. Personally I don't find many empty bottles on turnaround as I confiscate what they have and give it back when they get off.

All IMHO as a colleague. And to get back to thread topic the Captain is in charge but relient on the CM for cabin issues right from check in in the briefing room.

I'm guessing not many flight crew would disagree here.

[easyflyer83]

No sexism there then:ugh: And you a male crew member easyflyer tut tut :=

I am not so young female crew and as SCCM have done more med circuits than you who apparently has not even done some at all to be able to comment in an informed way on this thread.

I fly with some exceptional female crew. I just find that younger female crew 'tend' to come into the job expecting it to be very different to what it actually is. I tend to find they don't pick the job up quite as quick as the boys. Sorry if that offends but if you must slap a label on me i'd say 'ageist' would be a better fit.

Here is the bottom line Hun. As CM's we identify problems on the ground and preferably at the gate with good comms with the dispatcher. We then pass these onto the Captain who is in charge of these flights and together we make a decision. That is CRM 101.


Please don't teach me to suck eggs. I fly day in day out just like you so don't be so patronising.

You think you are "in control" in the air of a drunk??. You need to ditch the ego trip right now easyflyer as you are on a pax forum. Nobody controls a drunk and the person who actually has control in the flight deck at whatever stage of flight or on the ground is actually beyond your control as the CM. You report to that person.

For the last time I have never said I have control of a drunk. I said I have control of my cabin and if you don't then perhaps you need to look at your own conduct.

Get a grip......it's not all about you and your performance on this thread. See the bigger picture as many pax will due to your posts and will probably never fly orange again out of your base. I know I wouldn't as keep plying the loud, lively and unruly with alchohol is inviting trouble and all because you feel you have control as a CM??.

Again i never said I ply them with alcohol. I do however use discretion and don't always go for the 'stop alcohol' as the first option just because a group are getting a bit loud. Yet again I point out that there is a huge difference between being a bit loud and being unruly, unsafe and obnoxious. I standby my judgement because my policy tends to work I have found. You may have a different way of doing things, perhaps that works too but it doesn't mean mine is wrong.

When they then order 10 cokes/tonics and lemonades with ice it sort of alerts you to the fact they might just possibly be drinking their own booze and makes all crew more vigilent provided this is communicated.

Absolutely but you can be as vigilent as you like but when you have service and safety of 150-180 ofther passengers to contend with on a busy flight you cannot always catch them particularly as 99% of the time they aren't as brazen as you would have us believe. And just because it's a group we can't always just assume that they have their own alcohol because whilst you're doing that the little old lady who has her own or even that served by crew is sat there getting absolutely pissed because she doesn't fall into a particular group. And that is easily done believe me......


All IMHO as a colleague. And to get back to thread topic the Captain is in charge but relient on the CM for cabin issues right from check in in the briefing room.

I'm guessing not many flight crew would disagree here.

You're going off on a tangent now. I don't believe that I have ever questioned the commanders authority during this debate have I not?
I'm beginning to feel like i'm listening to an debate between you and your split personality.

[Piltdown Man]

Are you reading too much into easyflier83's statement?

No David, I don't think I am. Cabin Crew all of the world do their damnedest to make up for the deficiencies of the system that they operate in. They have to. Be it a dreadful airline operated by some pikey on the cheap or a proper one but where some miscreant makes it past a normally robust system designed to weed out oiks. The problem is that once they are at 35,000' they have to deal with whatever is in their aircraft until they land. For free, I'll tell you that based on easy'83's posts, I'd happily have her working with me.


(Although I disagree with her about her company's policy on the seating scrum, pricing and other such stuff)

[DaveReidUK]

No David, I don't think I am.

Actually I was referring to your assumption that easyflier83 is female.

based on easy'83's posts, I'd happily have her working with me

I don't know him, but he sounds like he's too nice a bloke to correct you. :O

[easyflyer83]

Lol it made me laugh so it was light relief and besides i didn't want to be rude and correct you.

As for 'the scrum'. You may be pleasantly surprised tomorrow.

[PhilW1981]

I have to say I have found the "debate" between easyflyer and dolly somewhat enlightening as SLF.

I have been on both sides of this particular fence, as someone who likes a drink or two, in particular when on my outboud flight on holiday, and as a parent who has found certain "groups" somewhat overly lively due to excess alcohol. I have to say I find easyflyers approach somewhat more of a common sense approach. On a recent flight back from Cuba in Thomson premium (just me and my partner), I don't mind admitting I had a 35cl bottle of rum in my carry on, this was due to slow service on our outbound flight, we wanted our meal, a few drinks and then to sleep without the inconvenience of pestering the crew every 20 mins for a top up. We consumed said rum discreetly and we were no bother at all to cabin crew. I would probably have been a little cheesed off had an overly officious member of crew confiscted said rum.

On the flip side, a couple of years ago we were travelling on a late night charter from MAN to LCA. As you can imagine it was full of party goers on their way to 'Napa. We just wanted to sleep but various parties, pissed as a fart, were causing mayhem and the crew did little to stop them. Tough situation for cabin crew but on that flight I felt not enough was done.

[easyflyer83]

:) Thanks for your comments.

I have been on both sides of this particular fence, as someone who likes a drink or two, in particular when on my outboud flight on holiday, and as a parent who has found certain "groups" somewhat overly lively due to excess alcohol. I have to say I find easyflyers approach somewhat more of a common sense approach. On a recent flight back from Cuba in Thomson premium (just me and my partner), I don't mind admitting I had a 35cl bottle of rum in my carry on, this was due to slow service on our outbound flight, we wanted our meal, a few drinks and then to sleep without the inconvenience of pestering the crew every 20 mins for a top up. We consumed said rum discreetly and we were no bother at all to cabin crew. I would probably have been a little cheesed off had an overly officious member of crew confiscted said rum.

I don't allow passengers to drink their own alcohol but I take measured action. i.e in your instance, I wouldn't take it off you in the first instance. You can usually tell by a passengers attitude whether or not they're going to pay a blind bit of notice to you. My recent flight with the squaddies.....it was obvious they would continue to drink so I took it off them when I caught them. In actual fact they were pretty much brazen about it unlike others who know damn well it's not allowed and will be very sneaky about it. Lowcostdolly doesn't seem to realise this.

On the flip side, a couple of years ago we were travelling on a late night charter from MAN to LCA. As you can imagine it was full of party goers on their way to 'Napa. We just wanted to sleep but various parties, pissed as a fart, were causing mayhem and the crew did little to stop them. Tough situation for cabin crew but on that flight I felt not enough was done.

It can happen. Despite my more laid back/measured (whatever you want to call it) approach I will take action and try to get them to be quiet. If they don't listen then you can withdraw alcohol, again I have done that before but it doesn't always quieten them down. What else can be done? You can divert but behaviour has to be particularly bad, unruly and putting crew and passengers in danger. However annoying it might be, in most cases a group of loud guys/girls won't fall into that category. As such it's not really prudent to divert and cause additional cost to the carrier aswell as disrupting the schedule and other passengers. It's more of a courtesy issue. You can have the police meet the aircraft but if they haven't really done any of the above then they will simply be escorted off the flight. We can't even guarantee that it will actually be the police who will meet the aircraft although in the overwhelming cases it would be.
There is only so much crew can do to curtail low level rowdiness. That is precisely why I differ from the hardline approach administered by lowcostdolly. If you go in all guns blazing from the outset you won't always get respect back. Have a laugh with them, judge the circumstances, passenger profile and cut them a little slack and they will generally react in a positive way towards you. You get to know who the idiots are and who the ring leader of the group is and utilise that knowledge to your advantage. Every group has the most popular guy or the half sensible one and most groups has the group idiot. Take the right approach and they'll keep the idiot in check usually. But if low level rowdiness continues, and by that i mean a bit of shouting, laughing and general loudness then if they persist the crew cannot do an awful lot given that a divert would be an over the top action.
Although i'd hazard a guess that you were probably in the minority of wanting to sleep on a MAN-LCA. Not that that is a crime of course.

[fergineer]

Glad to see that things still happen!!!! Worst trip for me when I was flying was a delayed Ibiza cos the 320 went tech and we had to call out the L1011, the punters well well and truly sloshed by the time we got there....Cabin alt set high and temperature up soon sent them to sleep!!!!

[TightSlot]

...I would probably have been a little cheesed off had an overly officious member of crew confiscted said rum.
and
Tough situation for cabin crew but on that flight I felt not enough was done.

Apparently, it's acceptable when you do it, but not when somebody else does?

If nothing else (and I don't think there is much else) the above post is reassuring. It reminds me that I made the correct decision in leaving and how much better life is now. The post tells us that those involved were so fundamentally unable to cope without alcohol for a short period of time that they knowingly broke the rules and then attempted to justify it by blaming somebody else, in this instance the outbound crew, for providing slow service while suggesting that their actions benefitted the inbound crew involved by reducing their workload.

When I travel as a passenger, I usually have no alcohol at all, even when on vacation. That's right - sometimes many hours go by without alcohol: It's not necessary and it doesn't make the experience any better, or make me feel any better later on after landing. This is what I mean (sorry, but there's a bit of a rant incoming) when I talk about there being a problem with British social culture: Alcohol is hard-wired into the circuitry of our lives. It is possible that my views are influenced by the restrictions on consumption that I have grown used to over the years: A glass of wine at a business lunch has never been an option, although a gin and tonic in the hotel bar after work often has. If I ever find myself in a place where I sneak alcohol onto an aircraft, drink a half bottle of rum between two of us and then attempt to blame somebody/everybody else then it might be time to sit back and take a cool hard look at what I have become.

[easyflyer83]

It is part of the British culture, there's no doubt about that. Only the Scandinavians can be compared to the Brits. However, on the routes in question we're talking about people going off on their well earned holiday. In my opinion they have every right to. I certainly drink when I go on my holidays. I usually fly long haul when I'm away so I don't go mad but it's a great way to relax. The overwhelming amount of people on my flights, even the slightly loud/overexcited, people are well behaved and just enjoying the start to their holiday. That is why the holiday routes are generally my favourite.? I think the issue is generally being blown out of proportion. Yeah you can have your bad flights but in my experience they are few and far between.

[lowcostdolly]

I have to say I have found the "debate" between easyflyer and dolly somewhat enlightening as SLF.

So have I!!

I have a zero tolerance to drunks on board my flights which is in line with our company policy, the ANO's and the tokyo convention. A fellow CM has a different interpretation of these rules.

I actually have Jetset lady's approach to this issue at the outset and if they (the loud and unruly) cannot manage to sit down, shut up and buckle up on the ground they don't make into the air if I can help it. Furthermore they are told on boarding their alcohol purchases from the bar can and will be curtailed. That is an approach our Captains have never failed to back me on.

I do agree with easyflyer that there is usually the "halfway sensible" in these groups and also the complete idiots. Common ground there.

Personally I do not leave the safety and control of my cabin to the "halfway sensible" in a stag or hen party because when exactly do they loose control of said idiots in their group? Is it when they become one because we are selling to them from the bar? Or perhaps it is when they are consuming their own?

I also agree it is sometimes difficult to catch them drinking their own but if you are only selling soft drinks to them and as SCCM making the whole crew vigilent it's not that hard.

You say you don't allow pax to drink their own alchohol easyflyer but then quote the amount of empty bottles you find on turaround:confused: Personally I rarely find said empties as I just confiscate bottles from potential troublemakers and give them back on disembarking.

We have a duty of care to all of our pax on our flights which includes the minority. That also means not compromising company policy, the ANO's and the Tokyo convention.

If in doubt ask the Captain. At the end of the day they are in charge at all stages of the flight and I believe was the thread title. Thats FR or not.

At your base Captains may agree to take the loud and unruly into the air and allow you to sell to them from the bar during flight. Maybe you only "consider" telling them and quite often don't as CM.

One day that ego of thinking you "have control" of drunks on your flight as CM will come back to bite you easyflyer:uhoh:

My approach......hard line maybe. Effective in terms of airline safety then I don't care if it's hard line. I don't do drunks on my flights end of.

You think a divert for drunken yobs on a flight compromising safety is OTT easyflyer. Why?

That would be the only course of action for the commander had the cabin got out of control. As CM's we are expected to have control of the cabin. That includes off loading drunks.

Our approaches to this issue differ and we need to agree to disagree.

What the Passengers think though is relevant here.

[easyflyer83]

I also agree it is sometimes difficult to catch them drinking their own but if you are only selling soft drinks to them and as SCCM making the whole crew vigilent it's not that hard.

You say you don't allow pax to drink their own alchohol easyflyer but then quote the amount of empty bottles you find on turaroundhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif Personally I rarely find said empties as I just confiscate bottles from potential troublemakers and give them back on disembarking.


So it's hard to catch them but at the same time you are saying it's not? Make your mind up.

Myself and my crews are always vigilent. However, and as I said before, you have other passengers to take care of. Most people who drink their own do it very discreetly whether that be pouring from a bag or out of a water bottle. You do have an idea who MAY be drinking their own alcohol purely by what they're buying but short of searching their bags it can be very hard to catch them and of course we don't have the power to search peoples luggage, particularly if it's on a whim of suspicion that they might just be drinking their own alcohol. Only if you hang around that particular row all flight will you catch them for certain and lets face it, you have alot of other things to do on board than just that.

And yes occasionally i've found bottles of alcohol ranging from wine to vodka. I'm not embarrassed at admitting that because you can be as vigilant as you like but when you have upto 180 passengers, there is very little you can do if they are very discreet and devious about it.

As a side. I've been doing the 'no own alcohol PA' on all my flights long before the memo allowing us to make it on flights we feel necassary.

I just confiscate bottles from potential troublemakers

Way over the top. You cannot go round confiscating bottles from people who you perceive as possible trouble makers. That is unfair.....at best. Again, whilst you're playing Columbo the little old lady is getting hammered on either her own or bar alcohol because you don't perceive her to be a 'potential troublemaker'. You've lost the plot.

I do agree with easyflyer that there is usually the "halfway sensible" in these groups and also the complete idiots. Common ground there.

Personally I do not leave the safety and control of my cabin to the "halfway sensible" in a stag or hen party because when exactly do they loose control of said idiots in their group? Is it when they become one because we are selling to them from the bar? Or perhaps it is when they are consuming their own?

Nobody, and certainly not me, said that you leave it to the "half sensible". I said identify the 'half sensibe/leader', identify the idiot and use that to your advantage. There is a difference.

At your base Captains may agree to take the loud and unruly into the air and allow you to sell to them from the bar during flight. Maybe you only "consider" telling them and quite often don't as CM.

I communicate effectively with my Captain's. Remember also, we operate relatively small, open planned cabins and as a consequence the flight crew are usually aware of whats going on if a group are being excessively rowdy on boarding. They share their concerns with me and vice versa.


One day that ego of thinking you "have control" of drunks on your flight as CM will come back to bite you easyflyerhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

Taking things personal again. I have no ego.

You think a divert for drunken yobs on a flight compromising safety is OTT easyflyer. Why?

Because there is a difference between drunken YOBS and a group of excitable, lively passengers. A very big difference. With the latter they rarely impede on safety and you can control/manage them rather than diverting and wasting airline resources and passengers time. Yobs are different and I have never condoned or said that I tolerate yobbish behaviour.

That would be the only course of action for the commander had the cabin got out of control.

We're not talking about the cabin getting out of control. You're simply grabbing hold of the worst case scenario.

[PhilW1981]

Apparently, it's acceptable when you do it, but not when somebody else does?

You've made a huge number of assumptions there. Myself and partner would not be acting drunk, falling around the cabin, shouting at people and generally making a nuisance of ourselves as was the case on our way to Larnca. We simply wanted a quiet drink without disturbing the cabin crew. And for the record, nothing was sneaked on board, we board some rum in the departure lounge to use up Peso's (I'm sure you're aware they cannot be exchanged outside of Cuba). There was no conspiracy. As for your implication regarding our unwillingness to refrain from alcohol consumption, we were departing at 17:00 local time, arriving back in Manchester at 7am local time, we wanted to sleep and without some form of sedative or a few drinks I am unlikely to go to sleep before 22:00. This would have meant only 2/3 hours sleep, something I particularly wanted to avoid.

As easyflyer has suggested, a quick look at us from the cabin crew and they would know we weren't a stag or hen group, whooping around making a nuisance of ourselves. I think the point he is making is that you should make a judgement on your course of action based on all available evidence, including destination/departure point, profile of customer/group, behaviour up to this point so far rather than a one size fits all approach. This would surely be common sense.

[Shack37]

I also have been following this thread with great interest and find myself inclining more to LCD's view than to ef83's.

I enjoy a drink whether on holiday or not and do not need a lecture on "what I have become" if I decide to have a glass of wine with my meal followed by coffee and cognac/whisky. So far no CC has found it necessary to comment on my behaviour.

I do however feel uncomfortable when sharing a flight with a group of rowdy pax and would prefer that CC take action to nip any loud behaviour in the bud.

It's always interesting to read how the professionals see their responsibilities with regard to pax behaviour and see it debated openly in the SLF thread.

It's equally interesting to note the difference in their attitudes to other thread contributors which vary from the polite to the downright sanctimonious.

[Chuchinchow]

After reading this thread one now knows one's policy of always flying F or, at a pinch, J on legacy companies (preferably BA) is absolutely correct.

One meets a much better class of rat-arsed drunken git there.

[Hotel Tango]

:ok: Well shaid chuchinchow :\