VFR Flight Plans: Are they worth filing ?

[Flylogical]

Based on the IOM (EGNS), I got in to the habit of filing a VFR flight plan every time I flew to the mainland, due to (approx) 50 nm Irish Sea crossing, under the assumption that "the helicopter will find me faster if I've filed a flight plan".

However, on a recent flight with an experienced ATC/Instructor as passenger, he told me "frankly, VFR flight plans aren't really worth filing. They basically get ignored by the system". As such, I must admit I've got out of the habit of filing them.

So, my question is as follows: are VFR flight plans worth filing in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter) in terms of expediting emergency response ? or are they so far down the pecking-order (compared with IFR flight plans) that they are essentially a waste of time (mine and the "system's") and it is safer to simply to remain alert and be ready to report location as accurately as possible if ever there is an in-flight emergency.

I'd appreciate an honest/frank answer, though I realise that any ATC professionals may not be willing to give such unless it is, in fact, true that VFR flight plans are (significantly) better than not -- in which case, I'll start filing them again (!)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally I file one if doing a long crossing of something unhospitable with prolonged periods out of RT range from anybody.

Mostly that is deserts in the USA.

The only time I ever tried to file a VFR flight plan in the UK that was through R112 and it got rejected.

So no, I see no point.

G

[barne_as]

I'm sure someone must look at them. Slightly different to your post but When filing VFR flight plans for flying in France, they seem to know your coming ie. the controllers know all your details before you transmit them.

[Flylogical]

Yes, barne_as, I agree that the filing of a flight plan certainly seems to trigger the chain of handovers such that the destination ATC is expecting you to show up. For example, in my case, Blackpool will say "we already have your details" (handed over by EGNS) etc, which is comforting when half way across the sea, but I wonder if there is any true monitoring with regards a priori, pro-active "sending out the helicopter" should a VFR flight not appear within the flight plan window -- or not (i.e, essentially ignored from that point of view) ?

[ShyTorque]

Speaking as an ex-SAR and police pilot, I'd say for your own safety (if not for ATC reasons) when operating over inhospitable terrain it makes sense to file relevant waypoints and EET's (and to stick closely to the route if possible).

However, in addition, as per the ANO, a "responsible person" should be flight following, for alerting reasons. This could be anyone of your choosing, your operations where applicable, an ATCO, a relative or friend, or someone expecting you at the arrival point.

Then you have an alerting system and a positive search start point, irrespective of how your actual VFR flight plan was dealt with in the meantime. A VFR flightplan can obviously be retrieved from the system if necessary.

There is nothing more difficult than starting a search from an area of unknown dimensions. This increases the search area exponentially and greatly reduces your chances of being found in a timely manner.

[Flylogical]

Thanks, ShyTorque

If I read between the lines of your response correctly, is it in fact the case that filing a VFR Flight Plan does not guarantee any reliable extent of "flight following" from ATCO (?) and that I really ought to be telling someone (friend, relative, etc) the essential details about my flight (waypoints, EET) since they would be the ones who, in essence would be noticing I didn't show up around the expected time ?

Presumably an IFR Flight Plan is treated very differently (they don't need to tell a relative ! -- pro-active flight-following by ATCO (?) would ensure the helicopter is scrambled if no-show, etc).

Your point is well-taken re searching an area of unknown dimensions. I do carry a GPS-enabled emergency beacon -- but, of course, the question is whether I would be in a position to properly enable that device in an emergency etc...

Given your comments and those from the other responders, I'm still not quite sure if there is any true value in filing a VFR Flight Plan, in itself (yes, point taken about informing friend/relative etc).

[ShyTorque]

If I read between the lines of your response correctly, is it in fact the case that filing a VFR Flight Plan does not guarantee any reliable extent of "flight following" from ATCO (?) and that I really ought to be telling someone (friend, relative, etc) the essential details about my flight (waypoints, EET) since they would be the ones who, in essence would be noticing I didn't show up around the expected time?

Not being ATC qualified, I'm not in a position to make a definitive judgement on that but I think it makes sense to do whatever one can to look out for one's own safety. Obviously, if flying VFR you may choose not to get, or be unable to get in-flight following. I've had this happen a few times in the north west of UK.

The "responsible person", if not of an aviation background, should be briefed on what action to take if you become overdue. In reality, this would possibly "kick-start" the system into action more quickly. If you had also submitted an accurate, written flight plan, it would be retrieved and the route you took is then quickly available to the SAR system. :)

[Flylogical]

Not being ATC qualified, I'm not in a position to make a definitive judgement on that but I think it makes sense to do whatever one can to look out for one's own safety. Obviously, if flying VFR you may choose not to get, or be unable to get in-flight following. I've had this happen a few times in the north west of UK.

The "responsible person", if not of an aviation background, should be briefed on what action to take if you become overdue. In reality, this would possibly "kick-start" the system into action more quickly. If you had also submitted an accurate, written flight plan, it would be retrieved and the route you took is then quickly available to the SAR system.

Interesting. In a nutshell, then, could this be summarised by saying that the VFR Flight Plan would be used re-actively rather than pro-actively in the case of an emergency / triggering-SAR response ? (pending ATC-qualified comment). If so, then the answer to my original question seems to be along the lines of a VFR Flight Plan has some value when it comes to assisting with the emergency response (after it has been triggered somehow), but other preparatory actions may be even more valuable (e.g., informing a "responsible person" who can pro-actively trigger the response).

[mad_jock]

VFR flight plan gives you zero flight following from an ATCO.

Your departure airport gets informed and your arrival. Everyone in the middle doesn't have a clue.

If and when some notices you not where you said you would be they will then have a look in the system to see if you submitted a flight plan. This could be mins if you were talking to an info service or hours if you Mrs phones the police the next day and says I haven't heard from them.

An IFR can be just as bad.If you drop out of CAS the UK like to dump everything to do with you and if the arrival tower doesn't ask where you are and dumps the strip you are in the same position as VFR.

[Flylogical]

VFR flight plan gives you zero flight following from an ATCO.

Your departure airport gets informed and your arrival. Everyone in the middle doesn't have a clue.

If and when some notices you not where you said you would be they will then have a look in the system to see if you submitted a flight plan. This could be mins if you were talking to an info service or hours if you Mrs phones the police the next day and says I haven't heard from them.

...thanks mad_jock but if the arrival ATC has indeed been informed of my intentions (via my VFR flight plan), and if I then don't show up within the planned half-hour (?) window noted on the plan, will they not automatically trigger any type of action ? If not, i.e. if the arrival ATC takes no action if I don't appear -- even if they had been informed of my intentions, why am I obliged to "close" the flight plan (e.g., cancel it if decide not to go) ?

[patowalker]

... why am I obliged to "close" the flight plan (e.g., cancel it if decide not to go) ?

Why would you have to close a flight plan that has not been activated? If it is not activated a reasonable time after the stated departure time, it just falls out of the system.

[Flylogical]

Why would you have to close a flight plan that has not been activated? If it is not activated a reasonable time after the stated departure time, it just falls out of the system.

OK, I was a bit slack there. Let's say I have successfully departed as per the VFR Flight Plan, thereby activating it. Here's the key question: if I then fail to show up at the destination, and have made no emergency calls etc en route -- I simply fail to show up within the planned window -- will the destination ATC (or the departure ATC) take any action ? are they obliged to take any action given that I have filed a plan ? or will I simply fall out of the system or -- not quite as bad -- be at the mercy of the decision of ATC on the day ? This is what I am trying to get at: will the VFR Flight Plan "system" trigger a SAR response if I fail to show up on an activated flight plan ? or, as previous responders suggest, will a SAR-response only be triggered if someone (informally) assigned by me as a "flight follower" (e.g., friend/relative/flying-club etc) complains that I am missing (and then the VFR Flight Plan may be retrieved from the system to help locate me)...

(By contrast, presumably a no-show on an IFR plan will trigger a SAR-response etc, even without a "flight follower" i.e., ATCO are obliged to actively respond...)

[dublinpilot]

I think the only honest answer to your question is that outside the UK, then almost certainly, but inside the UK "it depends".

I suspect the "it depends" depends a lot on the airport that you are going to. If it's got full ATC, it's more likely SAR will be activated, but still no guarantee.

Also be aware that flight plans don't always work. A number of times I've arrived back across the Irish Sea, which flight plans filed, and left from a controlled airport, only for Dublin ATC to tell me on initial contact that they've no flight plan for me. (And presumably no departure message either). So in those cases even though SAR is supposed to be activted in Ireland for a non closed flight plan, nothing would have happened.

[peterh337]

A VFR flight plan is delivered only to those explicitly addressed, plus a copy goes into a "national security database" of some sort to which various agencies have access, and from where it gets fished out if you disappear.

If it is addressed to an airport where you are not landing, they will bin it, so it does not assist with getting a CAS transit.

Since in the UK Class G you can change between VFR and IFR purely inside your head, with no radio contact, there is very little point in filing VFR flight plans unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed (no pun intended).

IFR flight plans are processed via a totally different system, involving a computer in Brussels (with a backup system in Paris, I believe). The route, once validated etc, is acknowledged with an ACK message and then X minutes (usually about 600) before EOBT the flight plan is transmitted to the various endpoint and enroute IFR units. It's a very smooth system, but it is unsuitable for UK Class G low level hacking under IFR because, as I say above, nobody except the endpoints will be interested in it, so you may as well file VFR.

The above notes apply to Europe only and in some cases to UK only. In much of Europe, not the UK though, any flight plan is distributed immediately to the whole country so if you call up some ATC unit in France they can see what you are on about very quickly. The UK system is fairly tightly partitioned between the IFR/CAS sectors, and the dross flying below that, with ATC funding arrangements and other politics keeping things where they are. Countries with a nationalised ATC system tend to have things working better.

Some notes are here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/online-flight-plan-filing/index.html) and here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr-flying/index.html).

[Flylogical]

Thanks dublinpilot.

You say

I think the only honest answer to your question is that outside the UK, then almost certainly, but inside the UK "it depends".

I suspect the "it depends" depends a lot on the airport that you are going to. If it's got full ATC, it's more likely SAR will be activated, but still no guarantee.

which comes to me as mild shock, I must say. That cosy feeling I got when I had filed my VFR Flight Plan across the Irish Sea, safe in the knowledge that "they will scramble the helicopter if I fail to arrive" seems grossly misplaced (and that ATC/instructor was right -- VFR flight plans are essentially a waste of time in the UK at least -- see my opening message in this thread)

[Flylogical]

Thanks peterh337 for your comprehensive response.

I'm glad I asked this question. It has sobered me up (in a manner of speaking) about the utility or otherwise of filing VFR Flight Plans in the UK at least.

One last question about your remarks. When you said

there is very little point in filing VFR flight plans unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed (no pun intended).


what did you mean by

unless you desire the rescue angle to be addressed ?

Are you referring to your earlier remark

from where it gets fished out if you disappear. ?

and nothing beyond that ? In which case, it is only after someone (other than ATC) has noticed/reported that you have gone missing that they will "fish out the Flight Plan" presumably to aid in the search. However, no one in ATC on either end (of the VFR flight plan) will necessarily raise the alarm if you don't show up i.e., as remarked by dublinpilot. You are largely on your own until someone (other than ATC) raises the alarm, irrespective of the filed VFR plan...ouch.

[peterh337]

All true and correct, but in general if you file a VFR flight plan from say Bournemouth to Southend, to arrive at 1200Z, and by 1300Z there is no sign of you, Southend ATC will do the "obvious thing" and phone Bournemouth to see if you actually departed :)

In most cases the answer will be No so they yawn and bin it :)

But you may have just crashed somewhere... and this is where the FP has some value. Now they can raise the alarm, fish it out, and start looking for you on the filed route (or here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html), probably more successfully).

I would never say it has absolutely zero value, but people need to understand what it really does:

- no right to CAS transit (the FP will have been binned long before you get there)
- no improved chance of getting a CAS transit (as above)
- no improved ATC service (as above)
- no PPR or PNR function (except in rare cases)

A FP (VFR or IFR as appropriate) has to be filed when crossing international borders, and it has to be filed for all flights within some countries' airspace (Greece, Spain in CAS...).

VFR FPs also do get lost from time to time, especially if the DOF/ parameter is used to file one in advance. The reasons for that turn out to be variable.

[dublinpilot]

It might help to explain what exactly a flight plan is.

I'm not an ATC....just a lowly PPL, but have gotten fairly used to flight plans by now as I need them for pretty much every flight that I make. Like you the system in the UK came as a bit of a shock to me ;)

When you file a flight plan, they get an AFTN message giving most of the details on your flight plan. (The stuff at the bottom such as life raft, life vests, survival equipment etc isn't transmitted to ATC).

ATC at your destination take this as nothing more than an intension to fly.

When you depart you get your flight plan opened/activated. All this really does as I understand it, is send a departure message to your destination airport with your take off time, and (I think) a reminder of some of your flight plan details included your estimated enroute time.

ATC at your destination now know that your intended flight is more than just an intension. They know that you've actually taken off, and they know roughly when to expect you. But that is it. They have no idea of your progress along the route, or your current location.

When you eventually arrive, they close your flight plan, which basically means that they send an arrival message to your departure airport stating your time of arrival, so that they know that you've arrived safely.

If something happens to you along the route and you divert, you are supposed to get a divert message sent (to your destination). They then know that you're not coming and bin the flight plan and departure message.

If something happens and you crash/ditch/disappear, ATC at your destination are under no obligation to do anything in the UK. However, assuming that they haven't split their coffee over everything, or ATC is closed and the airport is now uncontrolled, assuming that they have time to think ....etc etc...they should notice that your expected arrival time has come and you still haven't arrived.

I imagine that most don't get too worried at this stage, but if it goes on a bit longer, AND they notice (because they are under no obligation to notice or keep track of it) they will eventually start to suspect that you aren't arriving. They will probably start to check with ATC along your route to see if you're simply making slower progress, or to see if they can establish that you've diverted.

If all this comes to nothing they will most likely ask for S&R.

However this is all based on ATC being present, them getting your flight plan and departure message, noticing that you haven't turned up at the required time, having time to follow it up, and not having ended their day's work. They are not required to do this follow up, and therfore might not even notice that you have gone missing.

Even if they do everything like clockwork, it could be many hours after you've had a problem.

Imagine a 3h30m flight and you've problems and ditch 30 mins in. It will be another 3 hours before they are expecting you. They probably won't get too nervous for another 30 mins at least. Then they start to call around for other ATC/airports along the way...probably another hour's work, and only then do they ask S&R.

Now if your destination airport does not have ATC, then they are less likely to have your flight plan, to have received any departure message. Often in these cases, a nearby airport with ATC will get it instead. Of course these are less likely to notice anything wrong as they've no way of know that you've not turned up. They've no obligation (in the UK) to send the arrival message (because you've no obligation to close your flight plan). The airport that you've arrived at has no idea that you've actually taken off (because they don't get any departure message). It all becomes a lot looser.

Hopefully this helps you to understand the "it depends" a bit better, and to explain my comment that having ATC at your destination makes it a lot more likely that something will happen.

The other side of this is that your departure airport may well make enquiries if they get no arrival message, but probably not as they are used to things not being closed in the UK.

And even if it works, it can be many hours before anything happens.

Even outside the UK, it can take a long time. I remember one day having landed in Ireland from a internal flight, around midday, expected that my flight plan would be closed automatically because I landed at a full ATC airport (which by defination in Ireland meant that I had to have a flight plan). I forgot to turn on my phone after flying and didn't realise it until about 10pm. When I did there was a message from Dublin ATC checking to see if I'd arrived safely as my flight plan handn't been closed.

I was concerned that S&R would have been initiated as the message was from five hours earlier. When I called, to let them now that all was fine, I learnt that nothing had been activated. Perhaps if it was a cross water flight they might have been more concerned?

Anyway...I hope this is of help to you to understand what's going on.

[Flylogical]

Thank you dublinpilot and peterh337.

I think I know much better where I stand now vis-a-vis Flight plans in UK. Not very prominently !

OK. Seems the best lesson from this is to make sure one is on the ball sufficiently to get a clear MayDay call out with as accurate a position fix (plus IAS, heading, and altitude) as possible in order to trigger SAR and give them the best chance of locating you, irrespective of filing a plan or not.

Also, carrying the right kit (GPS beacon), and, if crossing water, lifejacket etc, checking it is serviceable & accessible, and knowing how to use it...

To all other responders, thanks again for your inputs.

Safe flying.

[peterh337]

I think what France has is a system where every flight plan goes into some central database and every ATC unit can access this immediately.

Also (I am told) every French ATCO is radar qualified which means they are allowed to view radar data, and they all seem to have access to radar screens. Radar units have a huge advantage because they can see you, so there is much less radio work for both sides. They can see your filed route so they know your intentions.

France seems to have gone for a "known traffic" environment and a relatively integrated ATC system, and this brings them obvious benefits.

But I also think this works in France due to the nature of their airspace and their GA activity. There is very little GA there, with a certain number of foreigners flying around the place, and with French pilots mostly doing short hops at low level, club to club, and the latter probably don't talk to ATC much.

In the southern UK, the main FIS is London Info which is staffed by non ATC personnel (FISOs) to save money, so they could not have access to radar data. This was changed some years ago (due to the vast number of CAS busts) and they can now see screens but are not allowed to say anything on the radio that indicates that they can see you.

[RPMcMurphy]

Another point to ponder on is that VFR flight plans can only be received by airports that have an AFTN connection. There are still some European international airports around that aren't connected, so miss out on any VFR plan details. Their CFMU connections enable them to access IFR plans only, so they have no knowledge of any inbound or outbound VFR flight planned movements until the pilot makes RT contact... :ugh:

[achimha]

Is this supposed to change with the unified sky initiative?

It's sometimes difficult to find out what to expect when flying abroad. A few years ago in Poland, my experience with FIS made me think they sit in a basement room with a big map and a few wooden airplanes that they move around based on the position requests they issue every other minute. From time to time they would spill coffee on their map and get confused. This year they had RADAR coverage but only from about 5000 AGL.

At the Aero show in Friedrichshafen you can play FIS at the German DFS booth with the actual systems and recorded real world data. The DFS employee does the radio for the aircraft involved and you have to process it, fill out the strips, resolve the odd situation, etc. That was very interesting. Here, FIS all have RADAR screens, the same system as the rest of ATC and when you contact them, the first step is to RADAR identify you. Most FIRs now hand out custom squawk codes, mainly to let the IFR ATC know that FIS are taking care of you. As VFR traffic, you can also fly > FL100 (that's were airspace C starts in Germany) which basically means you get FIS from the IFR ATC. Very convenient (very unlikely to encounter unknown traffic) and always granted in my experience.

French ATC/FIS are very good. My only complaint is that handoff between FIS controllers is often poorly done. They give you frequencies you can't receive, or the follow on controller doesn't know about you. Czech FIS are also excellent.

[mad_jock]

From what I understandin the UK at least there are some outside aviation that would like a VFR plan submitted for every flight.

But really the UK ATC system isn't interested or setup for doing anything meaningful with them.

Also as well I suspect alot of flights don't really have an objective in that yes you may set out to a destination but may go somewhere else in the end. I suspect most pilots who start out doing the good thing and do this once and have to deal with all the fall out then don't bother again.

Take a trip from the South Middle England up to say Wick VFR. Unless its CAVOK over the whole of scotland I won't have a clue which way I am going until I get near Perth depending on the WX. It will either be straight over the top, up the A9 or round the east coast. Over terrian which you would be well advised to have a flight plan in for, for SAR purposes. All I do is not bother with a flight plan and make sure that scottish Info has my routing and ETA for the next major turning point and who I expect to be speaking to. Its not perfect but I would hope it would work.


They do phone up and check, when ever I have asked the next ATC to give them a ring and let them know, they have nearly always already phoned to confirm we are safe.

[peterh337]

Another point to ponder on is that VFR flight plans can only be received by airports that have an AFTN connection. There are still some European international airports around that aren't connected, so miss out on any VFR plan details

I find it puzzling that they would get IFR flight plans but not VFR ones, because both are delivered the same way.

Most smaller airfields do not have an AFTN connection (telex in the old days). They get inbound flight plans faxed to them by some big nearby airport, whose AFTN connection is rigged up to get messages for the small one.

For example an AFTN message addressed to Brac LDSB gets delivered to Split LDSP which then faxes it to Brac (if it looks important :) ).

This I think is one of the numerous reasons why trying to communicate with airports using the AFTN Free Text Message feature (available in AFPEX) doesn't work most of the time.

In the UK, the regional FBU would fax stuff to fields such as Goodwood, but nowadays, I believe, all these places are supposed to have an AFPEX account, and the "airport" type AFPEX account doesn't time out so they can leave the app running all day, picking up any messages.

VFR flight plans get lost for numerous reasons... they are like emails i.e they get delivered to the specified mailbox address but there is no telling if anybody had read it.

[RPMcMurphy]

Some airports have no AFTN link. The CFMU system is available on the internet, and provides IFR flight plan information, but no VFR.
My local airport is currently assessing if it is economically viable to have an AFTN link installed. This airport is inside controlled airspace and provides tower and approach procedural ATC. The local FIR radar unit holds details of VFR plans into and out of the airport but does not normally pass on the details until the aircraft are within twenty miles inbound prior to entering the control zone.

[reportyourlevel]

I must admit to not having read all the replies so sorry if this has already been said. If you file a VFR FPL then the aerodrome of departure will send a signal (called a DEP) to the destination to tell them your airborne time. The destination will take overdue action (starting with phone calls to relevant ATC units, ending with launching SAR assets) at ATD+EET+30mins. So half an hour after your estimate for the destination they will start looking for you if you haven't showed up. this will not happen without the FPL. There is no "flight following" - obviously you can get ATSOCAS but the only way to guarantee your destination will take overdue action is to file a FPL.

[Flylogical]

reportyourlevel says If you file a VFR FPL then the aerodrome of departure will send a signal (called a DEP) to the destination to tell them your airborne time. The destination will take overdue action (starting with phone calls to relevant ATC units, ending with launching SAR assets) at ATD+EET+30mins. So half an hour after your estimate for the destination they will start looking for you if you haven't showed up. this will not happen without the FPL.

This is how I always thought the system would work, hence I always filed VFR FPLs, safe in the knowledge.... But reading the posts, it seems, in reality, this is rather hit-or-miss in the UK (and mostly "miss"). The destination is under no obligation to do anything. They may make some phone calls, they may not. The may not even have read the FPL (and thereby know what EET should have been, etc). This confusion/uncertainty is why I started this thread...and it seems to have come full circle (!). It seems there is big gap between what we would like to happen, and what would actually happen in a given situation. This is why I am mildly shocked. I thought this would all be "solid"...:confused: (you get the impression of solidity when you're learning to fly and learning about FPLs -- all sounds excellent in theory...but sort of pointless if it doesn't actually work).

[peterh337]

Yeah... intelligent people are constantly trying to rationalise how "aviation" works, but unfortunately it doesn't work in an intelligent way :)

The system has been developed ad-hoc over many decades, to serve the airline business, and for most of that time it ran on a telex-based network (now called the AFTN, which presently runs on high speed telecom links, though I suspect some of it may use telex in parts of the deepest Africa :) ) which was used to send messages concerning flights, and lots of other stuff like issuing Notams, weather observations at airports (Metars), etc. In the 3rd world, some of the AFTN traffic even ran on short wave radio links, and there is/was quite a sizeable ham radio crowd which used to build kit to decode these transmissions :)

With telex, you did not need special integrity measures because the system always provided a receipt confirmation (as a result, telex messages carried almost total evidential weight in cases of a dispute). Good stuff.... I even remember my business telex number from 1978: 85715 :)

Also the messages were always brief and standard and nobody needed to speak English to understand them. For example the flight plan (which is no more than just an AFTN message) is a standard layout.

Once the stuff went "electronic" and got disconnected at the human end (no more telex machine operators feeding in the paper tape) you didn't really know if anybody was reading it anymore.

VFR GA was never supported properly; most of the world doesn't know what it is...

Yes flight plans are legally required to cross national frontiers, so we have to file them.

I don't suppose anything is going to change anytime soon :)

The biggest change was over the past few years, when electronic (internet) filing arrived. Homebriefing.com was the first outfit and now there are numerous options. The UK agencies resisted this fiercely for as long as they could, because of likely job losses at the FBUs where dozens of people were sitting, filing about 3000 faxed VFR flight plans each month. Once the FBUs were closed, this job protection was no longer relevant and Afpex was introduced.

In Europe, the IFR flight plan system runs on a centralised database (Eurocontrol, a.k.a. IFPS) and is a lot more robust. You file a flight plan, say 1hr before EOBT, and in seconds it pops up at the towers at both ends and as soon as your allocated transponder code is seen on radar (this detail varies according to country) the flight plan is sent to all IFR controllers along the filed route. The smoothness has to be seen to be believed. It does go wrong but rarely.

[2 sheds]

it seems, in reality, this is rather hit-or-miss in the UK (and mostly "miss"). The destination is under no obligation to do anything.

Not so if the destination aerodrome has an ATS unit. The situation is as described by reportyourlevel. In fact, the same procedures apply to a flight plan for an IFR flight outside controlled airspace. Also, in practice, preliminary overdue action will frequently be started well before ETA+30 which is merely the latest time for it to commence.

2 s

[mad_jock]

Also as well I suspect alot of flights don't really have an objective in that yes you may set out to a destination but may go somewhere else in the end. I suspect most pilots who start out doing the good thing and do this once and have to deal with all the fall out then don't bother again.


Yep 2 sheds which is why I said the above. They get side tracked or don't get a crossing clearance or experence more head wind than they expect and then discover a huge fuss when they they do eventually arrive and don't bother again.

Up north it doesn't happen so much I suspect the first port of call is scottish info who most of us use. Should imagine down south with the multitude of different service which it possible to speak to it might be a bit of a pain to track the aircraft down. I susppose if it has a mode S it might make life easier.

[mm_flynn]

My understanding is the UK has a different process than everyone else for VFR flightplans. Most countries have process that says 'no news is bad news'. So if you have activated a plan (by the departure airport sending a departure message, or you calling up a service and asking for your plan to be activated), the 'system' expects an arrival message within 30 minutes of ETA and if they do not get it, over due action is commenced.

The UK operates on the system 'no news is good news', so unless the system has a reason to think there is bad news over due action will not be commenced.

If flying from an ATC field to an ATC field, during opening hours, with VFR flightplan and the arrival field has received a departure message but you don't show up, that, in all likelihood , would cause them to commence over due action.

I have never quite understood how this works for a VFR flightplan from say France to a private strip. Clearly the French won't receive an arrival message unless you call some local atsu and get them to send it (which no one seems to do) the French won't know if you have arrived. I have never heard of an issue with the French searching for planes returning to the UK so assume they must ignore unclosed plans to Brittain.

The bottom line is the UK is very different from everywhere else on this subject and a VFR plan is not particularly useful for raising the alarm (except the specific case of arriving to a field with an active ATSU). However, once the alarm is raised it does help them project you last known position to where you reasonably might have gone down.

[GeeWhizz]

As per the common view above, VFR FPLs are of limited use unless filed for legal reasons e.g. international trips.

The most useful a VFR FPL can be is for traffic volume planning at ATC controlled airports. More FPLs mean more staff need to available to cope with the capacity at the correct time. For en-route agencies it's more paperwork to read for the sake of a quick RT exchange.

Also FPLs do provide a 'tracking' tool should an emergency occur e.g. SAR. Or perhaps the destination needs to find out who is controlling a planned inbound flight to advise of poor weather or airport unavailability i.e. something else crashed into the runway and its no longer fit for use. A way of providing an early warning to divert if you will. These rely on a flightplan being activated via the departure message (DEP).

As for overdue action (OA), it's usually the responsibility of the destination airport to take OA when:

1. a fixed wing aircraft fails to arrive at or is not in contact with the destination aerodrome at the earliest of i) ETA radar entry or other specified terminal calling point, or ii) ETA overhead or landing.

2. a helicopter fails to arrive at or is not in contact with its destination i) at the end of its notified endurance for flights over water, or ii) one hour after the end of its notified endurance for flights over land.

These of course the latest times that OA should be taken, and do not prohibit OA being sought if doubt exists as to the safety of an aircraft. But departure aerodromes are not normally responsible for OA. Emergency action is of course taken by whoever is nearest.

At a controlled airport a FPL will be closed on arrival by ATC/flight planning/airport operations. For uncontrolled aerodromes it is the captains responsibility or sometimes even an AFPEX fluent radio operator.

For aerodromes without ATC such as Radio or Information stations... this is all more or less irrelevant. I stick to the CAA guidelines ref. VFR FPLs: no submitted unless I have to or flying over inhospitable terrain... neither done very often ;)

[peterh337]

I have never quite understood how this works for a VFR flightplan from say France to a private strip. Clearly the French won't receive an arrival message unless you call some local atsu and get them to send it (which no one seems to do) the French won't know if you have arrived. I have never heard of an issue with the French searching for planes returning to the UK so assume they must ignore unclosed plans to Brittain.

That's a very good point.

After a farm strip departure, you are supposed to do one of the following

1. Get somebody with an Afpex account (they can use yours ;) ) to issue a DEP message

2. Get the local FIS unit to issue the DEP message

3. Do it yourself, with a satellite phone internet connection and running Afpex :E

As you say, I am sure the French just ignore UK inbound flight plans, and perhaps too few people depart UK farm strips for say Germany.

[achimha]

In Germany they do search for you if you fail to close within 30 minutes of the filed arrival time. Happened to me several times. However, nobody files a plan these days unless they're crossing a border that requires a flight plan. Germany does not require VFR flight plans when coming from abroad or when going abroad so you only need it if the other country requires it. For France it's mandatory and when landing at a non towered airstrip in France, I always call up the French AIS and close the plan.

The "best" experience I had so far was on a VFR trip from Poland to Germany via the Czech Republic. Due to weather, I couldn't cross the mountains between the Czech Republic and Germany and had to turn south to Austria to follow the danube. All was done with FIS from the start to arrival but my flight plan was never forwarded to Austria so all the time I was flying through Austria, I was missing. The extra time required made the German AIS initiate the uncertainty phase and I just arrived in time in German airspace to avoid a SAR mission. My attempts to find a passage through the obscured mountains with lots of 360s on the radar track probably didn't give them much confidence when they started investigating my whereabouts. Never seen them to happy to hear me on the radio :)

[peterh337]

Germany does not require VFR flight plans when coming from abroad or when going abroad

Well I learn something every day :)

so you only need it if the other country requires it

which is, AFAIK, in all cases?

[achimha]

which is, AFAIK, in all cases?

No, I know of 4 countries that don't require them either: Austria, Netherlands, Czech Republic and Poland (unless you're going to a towered field). It's in the AIP.

All the cross-country flight plan requirement serves is to find out which SAR is supposed to go looking for you. With today's technology (RADAR tracks, Mode S), you don't have to look at the flight plan's EET for border crossing.

Reminds of an old joke: Bavarian border patrol discover a dead body right at the border to Austria. It's a lovely day and they don't want to spend time with the paperwork, so they decide to move the corpse over the border to Austria. Some time later, the Austrian patrol walks by that place and the policeman exclaims: "Look, the dead man is back here again!".

[BackPacker]

No, I know of 4 countries that don't require them either: Austria, Netherlands, Czech Republic and Poland (unless you're going to a towered field). It's in the AIP.

Interesting. I don't know about the others, but the Dutch AIP states:

A flight plan shall be submitted prior to operating:

Any flight or portion thereof to be provided with air traffic control service;
Any IFR flight;
Any flight across the Amsterdam FIR boundary;
Any flight or portion thereof operating in the North Sea Area Amsterdam and North Sea area V (see ENR 2.2 paragraph 3 and chart ENR 6-2.5);
Any VFR flight operated in airspace class A, under special conditions (see ENR 1.2 paragraph 3.2).

A flight plan can be transmitted during flight by radio if the flight plan covers only part of the flight. This does not apply to flights of which parts are executed:

Within the Schiphol CTR;
In controlled airspace class A;
In controlled airspace class B, except if the flight is carried out with a glider;
In controlled airspace class C, above FL195.

I agree that the wording is a bit ambiguous, but "if the flight plan covers only part of the flight" does not sounds like an appropriate exception to me. If your flight is across a FIR boundary, then the whole flight is an international flight, and not "part of the flight". So I don't think the exception clause would apply here.

I fly from a controlled airport (Rotterdam) and in the AD section it specifically states that all flights need a FPL, so I'm not keeping track of this all too closely. But I know that in the past the requirement for FPLs when crossing a FIR boundary was more explicit, and specific exceptions were made for flight between a few uncontrolled airports close to the border. (Teuge-Stadtlohn for instance.)

Also, a few years ago we had a presentation from a Dutch Mil controller and with regards to FIR crossings he said something along the lines of "We can correlate your Mode-S return with the FPL so we know it's you. That fulfills the obligation of notifying the FIR crossing. So don't call us if all you want is to tell us you've crossed the FIR boundary. Only call us if you actually need something from us." That, again, would suggest the authorities expect a FPL for any international flight.

[achimha]

Right, for Holland I'm not sure but the other states clearly state it in the AIP. Probably only a matter of time. However filing a flight plan is so easy nowadays compared to some years ago.

[Steve6443]

Quote:
Why would you have to close a flight plan that has not been activated? If it is not activated a reasonable time after the stated departure time, it just falls out of the system.
OK, I was a bit slack there. Let's say I have successfully departed as per the VFR Flight Plan, thereby activating it. Here's the key question: if I then fail to show up at the destination, and have made no emergency calls etc en route -- I simply fail to show up within the planned window -- will the destination ATC (or the departure ATC) take any action ? are they obliged to take any action given that I have filed a plan ? or will I simply fall out of the system or -- not quite as bad -- be at the mercy of the decision of ATC on the day ? This is what I am trying to get at: will the VFR Flight Plan "system" trigger a SAR response if I fail to show up on an activated flight plan ? or, as previous responders suggest, will a SAR-response only be triggered if someone (informally) assigned by me as a "flight follower" (e.g., friend/relative/flying-club etc) complains that I am missing (and then the VFR Flight Plan may be retrieved from the system to help locate me)...

(By contrast, presumably a no-show on an IFR plan will trigger a SAR-response etc, even without a "flight follower" i.e., ATCO are obliged to actively respond...)

Here in Germany they use your flight plans to trigger SAR activity. So, if I remember my PPL Theory training correctly, should you log a flight plan and activate it, the plan has the maximum flight time noted - if you don't close the plan before the maximum flight time expires, the SAR activity starts - I believe it's 30 minutes longer that maximum flight time (after all, max flight time on the VFR plan is total fuel less 30 minutes).

At first they will call your destination airport / alternate to see whether you have actually arrived. If you haven't arrived (ie, you landed elsewhere and forgot to close the flight plan upon arrival), then the rescue mode is activated 15 minutes later where they send the search and rescue teams out looking along your flight path. Whilst doing our theory exams we were repeatedly warned - if you don't close your flight plan or have them automatically closed by landing at an international airport, it can be pretty darned expensive because the pilot is responsible for the cost of the SAR operation......

[david viewing]

I met a chap who was in receipt of a 20,000 Euro bill for SAR services after landing at a German airfield from Scandinavia for an overnight and forming the impression that the tower radio operator had closed his FPL. They hadn't. Quite why SAR could not just send the local plod to the airfield to look for him I don't know.

I always feel deeply uncomfortable about not closing VFR plans when returning to my UK base, usually after closing time, from abroad. Asking UK ATC to close a plan whilst still in the air produces a shower of spurious excuses including "not until your wheels are on the ground due to our duty of care" and the other day "we are not allowed to do that". All of which is rubbish since it doesn't make any difference anyway.

I think being in the frame of mind to always close VFR FPL's regardless of where you are is essential discipline to learn because while it does not matter here, it certainly does everywhere else. It's very easy to forget to close an FPL, epecially when landing at a strange airfield and becoming distracted. In my experience the only reliable way to do it (especially in US) is to close from the air before contacting approach or tower, if there is one, because in US tower will not close an FPL.

The UK's sloppy, amateurish system encourages bad habits which can prove very expensive to the pilot.

[BackPacker]

What makes this complicated is that a lot goes on "behind the scenes" that we don't know about.

For instance, I think (but am not sure) that most uncontrolled fields in NL will graciously close your flight plan (without telling you) after landing when they know you come from abroad or from a Dutch controlled field (so they know an FPL should be in the system). Similarly, they will graciously (without telling you) open your flight plan after your departure to foreign or a Dutch controlled field. They are not connected to the AFTN but will simply use homebriefing.nl via the internet for that.

This means that pilots do not get into the habit of closing flight plans. So they leave them open after arrival on a field that happens not to automatically close them. With predictable results.

[Steve6443]

The "best" experience I had so far was on a VFR trip from Poland to Germany via the Czech Republic. Due to weather, I couldn't cross the mountains between the Czech Republic and Germany and had to turn south to Austria to follow the danube. All was done with FIS from the start to arrival but my flight plan was never forwarded to Austria so all the time I was flying through Austria, I was missing. The extra time required made the German AIS initiate the uncertainty phase and I just arrived in time in German airspace to avoid a SAR mission. My attempts to find a passage through the obscured mountains with lots of 360s on the radar track probably didn't give them much confidence when they started investigating my whereabouts. Never seen them to happy to hear me on the radio

Had a similar experience when returning from Hungary via Austria with destination Vilshofen - however in our case, the storms were over Linz so we couldn't follow the Danube as filed but instead diverted north into Czech airspace. Lucky for us, all details were forwarded.....

Coming back to your flight, we were told that S&R is only initiated after maximum endurance - the time specified in 19E - has passed since the time of Departure, regardless of whether you are anticipated to be handed over from one controller to another - apparently because you might have had radio failure or diverted elsewhere - so it's interesting to note that they anticipated you at a certain time and were prepared to launch S&R measures because of your non-arrival, even though this scheduled arrival was probably significantly earlier than the maximum endurance time......

[achimha]

Flight plans are supposed to include your mobile phone number and after calling your filed destination aerodrome, this will be their next attempt. If I file via RocketRoute, the plan also includes RocketRoute's phone number.

Regarding closing flight plans in the air, this doesn't always work depending on the country. It used to be quite relaxed in Germany but nowadays they refuse unless you are in the traffic pattern, at which time you should be talking on another frequency. I've heard it many times on the radio that FIS refused closing a flight plan because they considered the aircraft to be too far away from its destination.

I haven't heard lately about pilots getting a bill for SAR because they forgot to close the flight plan. They have so many options these days like the mobile phone or calling the airforce which operates a country wide 3D RADAR system that is much more capable than the civilian system. What happens a lot more often these days is SAR charges because of an ELT gone wild.

[Flylogical]

mad_jock, your comment about 'Mode S' raises an interesting question: Instead of a VFR flight plan (given the uncertainties reflected in the various responses in this thread -- especially for the UK), wouldn't the digital track history (from Mode S tracking by a radar service) be the best way of estimating the position of a lost aircraft which disappeared from the radar ? Does anyone know if and for how long these digital records are retained for ready retrieval in an emergency ? For example, are they kept for minutes (not very helpful) or hours/days/weeks/months ?

[mad_jock]

Well if you look at the CAA proscutions thread.

Someone got done using the mode S signature on a 7000 squawk when not talking to any ATS.

So it must be there if they can do that.

Also to note as well scottish info has always been very pro you uploading a photo and details into G info. Apparently this gives them loads of helpful info if the worst happens.

I don't know the coverage of mode S over the UK I suspect there are huge areas especially low level which arn't covered. If you got lost in the highlands below 3k you wouldn't be picked up these days now the maritime fleet has been put to rest. In times gone past you could be at the bottom of a glen and the transponder would be going 10 to the dozen with a mil rate of interrogation, now it doesn't flash at all.

[fisbangwollop]

FLYLOGICALDoes anyone know if and for how long these digital records are retained for ready retrieval in an emergency ? For example, are they kept for minutes (not very helpful) or hours/days/weeks/months ?

All NATS radar data is recorded and kept for a fair length of time. In an incident the tapes can be pulled pretty quickly and the data rerun. If it was the case of a missing aircraft with mode "S" that aircraft could be positively identified providing it was in radar coverage, even without mode "S" and assuming the aircraft was squawking 7000 and his point of departure and time was known that data could be followed providing the aircraft was actually within radar coverage until that contact was lost......the point of lost contact not necessary the place he crashed but the place radar coverage was lost due height etc and therefore a good place for the SAR folk to base their search options on.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I have recently carried out two different types of flights. Two were longish cross-countries and the other an IMC detail flying purposely in cloud and including IFR clearances. Having signed up to AFPEx recently I filed for all these flights (one was required and the other two over water). I must say that the whole process was seamless and I consider the fact that all the ATC units were aware of my details, route and intentions proved the value of this service. This facility, coupled with SkyDemonLight, makes the whole experience so much easier. Think back 15-20 years when nothing was free, little was available, iPads hadn't been invented and you begin to appreciate the wealth of information available today. I will tend to file rather than not in future - it's not difficult and, personally, I consider it worthwhile (even when not compulsory). FOK PS: When I went back into the flight planning office at the airfield last weekend my username was still on the computer, so it seems no one had used that particular facility for flight planning purposes in two weeks (at an 'International' airport as well!).

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Flight Plans in VFR NZ are pretty simple, even if your flying into large terminals its only an extra step.It costs me $8 to log a flight plan and i do it every time because to get anywhere in NZ you usually fly A)over water or B) over bush/mountains. I always set my SAR time no more than 30 mins over my first leg and update it enroute if i need to. i also fill up the whole enroute list with airfeilds AND waypoints, if i go down in the Tararua's (pretty rough terrain which have swallowed a few A/C) i want you to know where to start looking.

[david viewing]

The NZ system is even better than that, because they give you a squawk when you file the plan and you keep this for the whole trip. In that regard, it's a sort of FPL/Flight Following hybrid.

Presumably such a thing is not feasible in UK due to the limited number of xpndr permutations?

[mm_flynn]

I consider the fact that all the ATC units were aware of my details, route and intentions proved the value of this service.Are you sure? I have never met an ATCO who has indicated they prepare strips for VFR flightplans transiting their area (the arrival and destination field often seem to prepare strips). These transit plans go directly to the circular filing cabinet. ATC still often do provide an excellent service with handoffs from one unit to another (passing your route and intentions along the way). I find this happens more often away from London (due to workload) and on bad days (due to the lack of others flying).

I recently transitted low level from Newcastle to Fairoaks and Scily Isles to Fairoaks, both without a CFMU plan and in both cases had an excellent service with coordinated handovers the whole way (except one free call to Faranborough due to them being too busy to coordinate the handover). I don't think a VFR plan helps or hurts in these cases.

The NZ system is even better than that, because they give you a squawk when you file the plan and you keep this for the whole trip. In that regard, it's a sort of FPL/Flight Following hybrid.

Presumably such a thing is not feasible in UK due to the limited number of xpndr permutations?
I believe it is more due to the way Europe has decided/needed to approach transponder code allocations. Because there isn't an integrated system, there are lots of allocated code ranges, each for a special purpose. Even in the UK, there doesn't seem to be a facility to easily generate UK unique codes. So even though the NY or LA will have many more aircraft in the air than the UK, the US facilities can reasonably easily allocate discrete codes (coupled with geographic and flight plan separation) to have every participating aircraft with its own code, the UK can only really do this for airways IFR flights.

[alphaalpha]

To get at the official position ATC adopts, read CAP 493 (Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1), Section 5 Chapter 3. This covers overdue action. If an aircraft which has filed a flight plan (VFR or IFR) and a departure message has been sent, fails to arrive within 30 minutes of its due time, it's pretty clear that there may be a problem and overdue action will start. It's less clear, if the pilot has phoned for PPR and given an ETA and then doesn't show up.

I work at a FIS field (there's a similar publication to CAP493). I would take seriously a no-show on an activated VFR plan and, after verifying departure and alternates, start the overdue procedure. For a flight with only a telephone ETA, I have many times checked up on a no-show at ETA+30 only to find that he had not departed, departed late, or decided to go somewhere else. I have never found such a flight to have had an accident. So, in the absence of other information, I would be reluctant to start overdue action.

Consider -- you depart on a 2.5 hour VFR flight with activated flightplan. You like to operate without a radio and, 30 minutes into the flight, you crash without speaking to anybody. It would be a further 2.5 hours before your destination field/responsible person even considered any form of overdue action. Plenty of time to die from hypothermia. Avoid this by talking to or just listening to air traffic agencies en-route.

Further consider -- if you divert due to weather or just on a whim, tell the diversion ATC that you are on a flight plan so they can report your arrival. If not on a flight plan, but having given an ETA, phone your destination field an tell them you have diverted.

OP, do read the above reference (available on the CAA web site), it will make clear what you can expect.

Alan.

[soaringhigh650]

I have never met an ATCO who has indicated they prepare strips for VFR flightplans transiting their area

Somehow they magically know your details in a lot of places such as France and Spain. When you have filed your plan and do the initial call with your call sign, they give you your discrete squawk and ask whether you are going to xxx airport.

This is totally awesome as it cuts out so much radio babble.

In fact in the UK, so much babble is to be expected because of a lack of electronic information transfer.

The controllers then had to invent a new word over the radio: "freecall", and because of the workload associated with the babble, can only give everyone a Basic (i.e. Useless) Service :E

[Sam Rutherford]

I work on the assumption that the moment 'they' get to the box where I entered 'V' instead of I (or X or Y), then they lose any and all interest and don't look any further.

I suspect I'm mostly correct.

Fly safe, Sam.

[Fostex]

Somehow they magically know your details in a lot of places such as France and Spain

I had the same experience recently routing VFR through Italy / France.

Filed VFR plans for all legs. Italy wasn't great, first couple of handovers they knew who we were, after that despite being told our next station had our details they didn't. Approaching the French FIR it was the equivalent of a freecall despite being told otherwise. Then on entering the French FIR the ATCOs we spoke to had our details and all handovers were smooth and babble free. French ATC an absolute pleasure to deal with.

[mm_flynn]

I had the same experience recently routing VFR through Italy / France.

Filed VFR plans for all legs. Italy wasn't great, first couple of handovers they knew who we were, after that despite being told our next station had our details they didn't. Approaching the French FIR it was the equivalent of a freecall despite being told otherwise. Then on entering the French FIR the ATCOs we spoke to had our details and all handovers were smooth and babble free. French ATC an absolute pleasure to deal with.

My comment on Enroute ATC not preparing strips was specifically directed at the UK.

My experience of VFR flight with French ATC is they seem to have a nicely joined up system that electronically passes your details down the line, even if they only have the details you give on a free call.

I am in no way arguing the UK system is good, only that I don't believe filing VFR flight plans helps (or hurts) with getting handovers vs. free calls (and certainly I wouldn't count on an enroute station starting overdue action if you hadn't contacted them - although as alpha alpha says, I would be very surprised if a manned airfield didn't start overdue action on an aircraft with a departure message that is late vs ETA)

[peterh337]

The UK ATC system is a bizzare mixture of useless, semi useless, and working bits, which nobody will have a go at sorting out because of bizzare funding issues.

The privatised ATC just makes it even more intractable.

It baffles foreign pilots a lot :)

[soaringhigh650]

The UK ATC system is a bizzare mixture of useless, semi useless, and working bits, which nobody will have a go at sorting out because of bizzare funding issues.

The privatised ATC just makes it even more intractable.

Funding issues? But the unit rate is already the second highest across Europe. (http://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/default/files/content/documents/route-charges/unit-rates-and-tariffs/ur-2012-09.txt)

[peterh337]

The basic problem is that the UK system has always operated some form of cost recovery on all services provided - other than

- services which are mandatory under ICAO (which is only the FIS, now confusingly called Basic Service in the UK)

- services which are funded via other means for a specific other purpose (e.g. the LARS system, which historically existed for the military much of which historically did not have any means of navigation apart from DR and thus needed a fair bit of assistance, and is nowadays funded to keep a lid on the several hundred dangerous-category CAS busts done by GA each year)

Nobody is actually providing a service to GA in the UK, for GA.

Fairly often, some GA pilot has a moan that - on a Eurocontrol IFR (i.e. high altitude) flight - he did not get the service he expected, and fairly often someone from ATC gently points out that since he is below 2000kg he got the service he paid for :) Which is true...

The upshot of all this is that VFR traffic would benefit most if they expected to be wholly independent (radio nav i.e. mostly GPS, and talking to nobody enroute except a radar unit which is not too busy to provide a Traffic Service) and IFR (by that I mean on a Eurocontrol flight, as low-level IFR in Class G is de facto same as VFR in the UK) traffic needs to be happy with that they get, which is usually a good professional service, with some gotchas as mentioned, but also there is much less use for IFR in the UK than for European touring generally.

If you are IFR and > 2000kg you don't get a better service :)

[Artistic Intention]

"I work on the assumption that the moment 'they' get to the box where I entered 'V' instead of I (or X or Y), then they lose any and all interest and don't look any further.

I suspect I'm mostly correct. "

Yes you are mostly correct apart from flight plans being V, I (or Z or Y) :O

[david viewing]

The controllers then had to invent a new word over the radio: "freecall", and because of the workload associated with the babble, can only give everyone a Basic (i.e. Useless) Service


In the context of VFR FPL's I don't agree that Basic service is useless. Many of my returns to UK involve landing at a home field at a time of day when it's unattended. If I don't arrive, no-one's going to notice until next morning, or perhaps when the parking invoice goes unpaid.

Basic service gives me the confidence that someone can hear me, and I can hear them. If something happens, I've only got to press that button on the control column. Worth more than any FPL.

[peterh337]

In the absence of a radar contact, one could argue that a listening watch on say London Info would serve that purpose too.

I know London Info have radar screens now, which they can't talk about openly, but I wonder if they actually use that to track people in a way so that if you made a mayday call they would locate you right away.

I am also sure that if everybody who is currently flying around "silently" actually did call up London Info, the service would instantly collapse.

[soaringhigh650]

Basic service gives me the confidence that someone can hear me, and I can hear them.

Obviously if you do want to talk to someone, you are probably better off at getting traffic advisories where available. If it is radar derived even better. In the US it is called Flight Following. Internationally it is known as FIS.

Basic Service implies non-radar. You pass them your details, they collect it on a strip, only to trash it later. They don't even have to pass it to the next guy. And 10 minutes later they have no clue where you've gone if you don't tell them anything. It's a useless tie up of the frequency. You'll be far better off by just listening in.

If you just want to check you radio, go to 121.5 or 123.45 and see who can hear you.

If something happens, I've only got to press that button on the control column. Worth more than any FPL.

You can never plan for this. What if your radio fails at that moment? What if your distress call gets stepped on?

A FPL would already hold your details if you so wish to file one. Obviously the intention of any well designed modern system is that it should be electronically distributed appropriately. And if you don't close your flight plan, any sensible country would automatically initiate overdue action.

[mad_jock]

123.45

That will be a ground handling agent then in the UK.

[fisbangwollop]

Soaringhigh...Basic Service implies non-radar. You pass them your details, they collect it on a strip, only to trash it later. They don't even have to pass it to the next guy. And 10 minutes later they have no clue where you've gone if you don't tell them anything. It's a useless tie up of the frequency. You'll be far better off by just listening in.

I would like to think that here at Scottish Information we take a little bit more interest and care about the customers we can only provide a basic service to!!:cool::cool::cool:

[soaringhigh650]

Your facility might do. If so, good. That makes UK ATSOCAS inconsistently inconsistent.