Airships in the RAF?

[mike rondot]

Something for the weekend sleuth/historian... I tried to get the answer to this in Aviation History http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/492944-rigid-airships-raf.html without success so have come here in hope of an expert opinion.

Q? Has the Royal Air Force ever operated an airship?

If yes, why are the no references anywhere to airships in lists of RAF aircraft since 1918?

Why is it important? There is a very large painting of an airship in the RAF Club and I bet a beer that the RAF has never operated one.

Happy hunting.

Mike R

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

R33 class airship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R33_class_airship)

Should be checkable through the Air Force Medal citation mentioned.

Theakston's XB, please

My Grandparents had a wallet made from the skin of the R38 after it crashed in the Humber - which led to the end of military rigid airships.


.

[fantom]

An airship is anything above a Gp Capt isn't it?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

wot, an SD Hat? ;)

[BEagle]

Ask Pontious Navigator - he's probably got a few hours on them.....;)

A few minutes delving indicates that airship operation was part RN, part RAF after the formation of the RAF, but Howden and Cardington were RAF stations even though the airships were from the RNAS. But shortly after the R38 prang, interest in the wretched things mercifully waned.

Apart, that is from the periodic efforts of snake-oil salesmen attempting to revive military interest....:rolleyes:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

With further research, it seems the RAF operated them, from RAF airfields. It does also seem that they never 'owned' one.
The various references seem to show all the airships were either on loan from the Admiralty, or subsequently civilian registered.

So, operated - Yes, owned - No.

Real men don't drink half pints, so I leave the beer prize up to your judgement Mike.

[Pheasant]

Didn't Cranwell operate them.......when it was HMS DAEDALUS? I think there is a plaque in the main entrance to the College and even some of the mooring points over by the MQs.

[mike rondot]

I'm not convinced...

My guess is the RNAS continued to operate them until the last flight in October 1919. Any airship ops after 1920 were civilian registered. The RAF wanted nothing to do with them and did not take them on charge. Just my opinion of course but, my beer fund says I am probably correct.

The difficulties are that according to some sources the RNAS ceased to exist on 1 April 1918 while airships continued flying until October 1919. However, there are no records (that I can find) that the RAF ever owned or operated an airship.
Flt Lt was also a RNAS rank, so don't be fooled by that.

We are talking Rigid Airships here, not balloons. Apologies for any confusion, I thought you would all look at the other thread on AH&N http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/492944-rigid-airships-raf.html.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Edward Maitland Maitland appears to have been in charge of the RAF side of things.
E M Maitland_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/MaitlandE.htm)

He was awarded a Permanent Commission as a Gp Cptn on 1 Aug 19 (Viewing Page 11919 of Issue 31569 (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31569/pages/11919)),

and the AFC on 26 Aug 19 and a DSM by the Yanks on 12 Dec 19.

These medals were presumably for the Atlantic crossings in the R34, on which he was present and Major Scott (RAF) commanded.

The crew list for the Altantic flight lists Maitland as still being in the Army.
(Airshpsonline : Airships : R34 Crewlist (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r34/R34-crewlist.html))

Therefore we might surmise that the RAF operated the R34 for the Atlantic flight, and operated all the airships after 1 Aug 19, admittedly only for 3 months.

The ownership passing from Admiralty to Civvy reg was presumably the Navy's little power-politics of "you ain't getting any of our ships", which would have set a nasty precedent.

Thoughts?

[MIKTHENAV]

Mike

To quote my 1990 'Illustrated History of the RAF' by Roy Conyers Nesbit.....
The R34 was one of 2 RAF airships, each with a length of 643ft and powered by 5 engines, which entered service in 1919. She was based at Pulham in Norfolk and became notable for the first transatlantic flight made by lighter-than-air craft in July 1919. The R34 was damaged beyond repair after hitting a hill in Jan 1921'.

Regards

Mik the Nav

[foldingwings]

Lighter Than Air Road at Cranwell might provide a clue. It leads from Cranwell Avenue northwards through the OMQ patch towards the old airship sheds which were located there but no longer exist!

Foldie:ok:

[mike rondot]

This is the painting in the RAF club that started this question of attribution:

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z409/5dilly/ScreenShot2012-08-17at160043.png

I'm not sure it has any relevance to the RAF Club because I can't find any evidence that the RAF ever had any rigid airships.

There is no mention of an airship in any of the RAF source books I have looked in. I take Owen Thetford's Aircraft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918 as the bible in these matters but I have not seen his other book British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 . Now, if anyone has a copy of that, maybe the answer lies within.

[TURIN]

According to my copy of 'CHRONICLE OF AVIATION'

"England July 13 1919.
A British military airship operated by the RAF, the R.34, today accomplished the first two-way transatlantic air crossing. The outward journey was also the first air crossing of the Atlantic from east to west......

...It berthed at Roosevelt Field, Long Island, the ground crew being directed by an RAF officer who descended from the airship by parachute to take charge. "

They don't make em like that anymore.. :ok:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I thought as much

p.s. 2 Sqn RAF Regiment is still parachute capable, so they do "still make 'em like that"

[alisoncc]

Remember seeing a super-big hangar at RAF Cardington in '59. Always understood that that was there for Airships.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Mike

Have you tried the AHB or PRO? I can recommend the PRO for a day out, but be prepared to get side tracked. All sorts of fascinating rabbit holes for the unwary in there.

I'm sure S** C## at AHB would be happy to help. PM me if you want his work e-mail address.

[Pheasant]

I presume the picture is there because the RAF are interested in aviation history before 1918 - in the way the celebrated the centenaries of 1 Sqn etc at the 100 year point from RFC days.

I think the repository of airship history is at the Fleet Air Arm museum at Yeovilton.

[Lima Juliet]

I know that the R101 was civvy "G" registered but she was flying the RAF Ensign when she crashed (which now hangs in the local church at Carddington). The majority of the senior crew were serving RAF including I believe the skipper and navigator; the R101 was owned by the Govt and I guess it could draw parallels with the civvy reg aircraft the RAF operate these days?

Tragic story the R101 and was a series of high profile airship losses in the 30s, the most famous being Hindenburg. Let's hope we don't learn them all over with the current Hybrid Air Vehilces venture at Cardington these days :(

LJ

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I highly recommend Nevil Shute's autobiography 'Slide Rule'. He was the Chief stress man on the competing R100 (designed by Barnes Wallis for Vickers). The R100 designs had to be submitted for checking by the Govt. The Govt's designs for the R101 were checked by...themselves!

Result: R100 highly successful. R101 crashes on first flight. Govt halts all airships and scraps R100.

Sound familiar??

[Milo Minderbinder]

r34 airship landing in the USA, 1st double crossing of the Atlantic. - YouTube


From Airshipsonline : Airships : R34 (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r34/index.html)

"The firm of William Beardmore and Company Ltd. of Inchinnan near Glasgow began work on R34 on 9 December 1917 and she was completed just over a year later. Preparations to H.M.A.R34 were completed in December 1918 and her lift and trim trials were carried out successfully on the 20th of that month. By the time R34 was ready for her test flights, the war was over and she was too late to see active service. On 30th December 1918, while bad weather delayed the trial flight, the Admiralty agreed to lend their airships to the Air Ministry for long-distance trials. R34 was specifically mentioned but because of the persistently bad weather it was not until the following March that she left her hangar at lnchinnan, near Glasgow, where the Beardmore Company had their works. "

HMA of course means "His Majesty's Airship" i.e. Navy owned
Reading elsewhere indicates that at least one of the crew on the atlantic crossing was American

As for the parachuting landing crew supervisor - according to British Airship R-34 | R34 Arrival in America (http://www.airships.net/blog/british-airship-r34) he was Major E.M. Pritchard

R34 airship makes first trans-Atlantic return | In-depth | The Engineer (http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/classic-archive/r34-airship-makes-first-trans-atlantic-return/1003455.article)
has a couple of anecdotes about the engines - and also about the first ever airborne stowaway

[Milo Minderbinder]

As to HMA 9R
This was the first UK rigid airship that actually managed to fly, and that may be the reason for the painting
A brief guide to its history is at airshipsonline:airships:hma_9 (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/hma9/index.html)
Its appears to have been Navy operated during its short life. It has to be regarded very much as an experimental design
More importantly it got Barnes Wallis involved in aircraft design at Vickers

[BEagle]

Lighter Than Air Road at Cranwell might provide a clue. It leads from Cranwell Avenue northwards through the OMQ patch towards the old airship sheds which were located there but no longer exist!

As can be seen on this old map:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/CW-1.jpg

[green granite]

Originally Cardington was owned by Short brothers, hence the name Shorts Town for the large housing estate clustered around the entrance to the field.
After a relatively short period of time and after the first of the sheds was erected it was compulsory purchased by the government and became the Royal Airships Works.

As for the RAF involvement they were certainly operated by the RAF as the Royal Navy's Air Service and the Army's Royal flying Corps ceased to exist and were merged to form the RAF.

There is an excellent book called 'Airships Cardington' (from the telegraph address) which traces the story of the place.

[XV277]

.

There is no mention of an airship in any of the RAF source books I have looked in. I take Owen Thetford's Aircraft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918 as the bible in these matters but I have not seen his other book British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 . Now, if anyone has a copy of that, maybe the answer lies within.

I do, on his section on airships, he mentions (for example) the R.33 "It served with the RNAS at East Fortune and Howden, and went on to serve with the RAF until 1927"

R.34 was similarly an RAF operated rigid airship, as would have been all the other remaining ex-RNAS rigid craft after the merger of the RNAS and RFC on 1/4/1918.

Thetford is good, but not infallable - he doesn't cover Air Cadet gliders in any great detail, each edition of AotRAF only copvered what was then currently in service.

[HaveQuick2]

In the 1990's there was an airship doing the rounds, but not sure who it was operated by.

www.ukserials.com (http://www.ukserials.com) lists a "Skyship 500" ZH762, so that may have been the one, though they don't mention the operator/owner.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Spooky how these things come up.

From this day in history 23 Aug 1921:

HM Airship R38 - which had been sold to the US Navy while under construction - broke up in the air over Hull during an acceptance test flight. Air Cdre E. M. Maitland, Cdr L. H. Maxwell USN, twenty-seven officers and men of the RAF and fifteen officers and men of the USN were killed. The captain of the R38 and three crew members survived.

Taken from: The Royal Air Force Day by Day by Air Cdre G Pitchfork

[XV277]

In the 1990's there was an airship doing the rounds, but not sure who it was operated by.

www.ukserials.com (http://www.ukserials.com) lists a "Skyship 500" ZH762, so that may have been the one, though they don't mention the operator/owner.

One of the units out of Boscombe Down, also operated out of Middle Wallop as well. It was damaged in 1995, and later sold in 1998 - some sources say it was written off others that it was repaired.

This pic shows the size in comparison to the Cardington sheds - the 90s Helium airships were miniscule in compariosn to the rigid ones of the 20s.

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1077177M.jpg

[mike rondot]

Roland,

I think your suggestion about visiting AHB is favourite to find the answer to this question. However, comma....

Just because the RNAS was absorbed into the RAF in April 1918, it does not mean the Admiralty relinquished its role as Rigid Airship operator. The last military flight before all airship operations came under the Imperial Airship Scheme took place in 1919 AFAIK. I believe the RAF may have provided some manpower and airfield facilities after April 1918 but the Admiralty continued as the owner operator and hence, the RAF has never owned/had/operated/flown/whatever a rigid airship. That's my story and it needs to be disproved before I hand over the beer.

[XV277]

Mike,

Bit more research has shown that Thetford, as quoted above, was wrong. R.33 seems to have been demilitarised in 1920, although still used for RAF related trials such as:

AEROPLANE LAUNCHED FROM THE AIR - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/aeroplane-launched-from-the-air/query/Norfolk)

However, R.34 appears to never have been civillianised, and was operated by the Air Ministry for some of the time before her demise in 1921.

As Milo quotes above:

The Admiralty agreed to lend their airships to the Air Ministry for long-distance trials.

So Admiralty owned, Air Ministry operated. Does that count as RAF? Might be best called a draw!!

Airshipsonline : Airships : R34 (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r34/index.html)

(and of course her captain was Major G H Scott A.F.C)

[Milo Minderbinder]

Presumably "Air Ministry" at that point would be civilian (more of a business / industry development / research department on the lines of NACA) - but they would have to draw on military crew to fly it. Also interesting is that USA crew were on exchanges in the UK - for instance this USA naval officer who was on that first transatlantic crossing of the R34
USS Shenandoah (http://www.airships.net/us-navy-rigid-airships/uss-shenandoah#lansdowne)

[Norma Stitz]

XV277 et al

ZH762 was 'written off' when it flew into trees at Boscombe....the fable goes that the helium involved caused those attempting to hang onto nose-guide ropes were Pinky & Perky-esque for a while afterwards, but I don't believe it!

The gondola was fine, only the envelope was damaged; the whole combo sat in the Weighbridge hangar until they decided to ditch it. The ultimate operator was meant to be the Amateur Aeroplane Company, supposedly for Op BANNER duties, but again that was speculation and informed comment at the time

[unclenelli]

On 1 April 1916, the Royal Naval Air Service, Training Establishment, Cranwell was officially born.
As the naval personnel were held on the books of HMS Daedalus, a hulk that was moored on the River Medway, this gave rise to a misconception that Cranwell was first established as HMS Daedalus.
With the establishment of the Royal Air Force as an independent service in 1918, the RNAS Training Establishment became RAF Cranwell.

So since RAF Cranwell has existed since 1918, this exerpt from the RAF Cranwell College Journal V25, 1953 (http://web.archive.org/web/20081013095238/http://www.leytransport.i12.com/cranw.htm) clearly shows an "Airship Section" ivo Brauncewell Road/Primrose Lane/Longcroft Drive in current OMQs.

Google Earth also shows (still in existance) the:
Station (currently MGR) 530208.72N 0002952.92W
1923 Loco Shed 530215.10N 0003007.24W
Larger Shed (behind current Community Centre) 530211.54N 0002957.12W

Airships weren't the only thing that came to Cranwell from Cardington!

[mike rondot]

Unclenelli,

Cranwell Airship Section on street map

No, that won't do. The question is about Rigid Airships in the RAF and I am not convinced that there were any. Everyone appears to be applying logic and common sense to this question which, as we all know, has no place in the military when it comes to inter-service rivalry.

[Lima Juliet]

Mike

How about R31, built at RAF Cardington, first flown for 2 hrs by Sqn Ldr W C Hicks AFC RAF in July 1918 and adorned with a RAF roundel? She flew a 2nd test flight on 16 Oct 18 from Cardington for 2 hrs.

See here Airshipsonline : Airships : R31 (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r31/index.html)

She was not an H.M.A. and the RNAS had dissolved before first flight, so she was de facto RAF by default. She also flew for 4hrs 55mins in the last 5 days of the Great War after commisioning as a RAF airship on 6 Nov 18.

http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r31/images/r31emshd.jpg

I can find Hicks' appointment of a Permanent Commission and promotion to Wg Cdr in the Gazette here in 1919:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31569/pages/11919/page.pdf


This is a direct quote from the London Gazzette from the Air Ministry in 1918:

All Officers serving with the Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Flying Corps on the 31st March 1918, or in connection with those Services in certain Government Departments, in other than the undermentioned capacities, are granted temporary commissions in the Royal Air Force, with effect from the 1st April, 1918, in ranks which will appear in the Royal Air Force List.

Can I claim my virtual beer for this?

LJ

[GreenKnight121]

You can de facto all you want, but if the RN never formally transferred inventory custody of the airships via the correct paperwork, they were de jure still Royal Navy owned!

[Lima Juliet]

GK

How about this then from the same website:

The R32 was commissioned in to the Navy on 3rd September 1919, with the original plans of being a high speed Naval scout ship. However with the war over, there was confusion as to what to do with the R32, and the other airships still in existence. After her first trail flight on 3rd September 1919 which took the ship around Bedofrd to salute the town of her construction, she flew on to Pulham Airship Station in Norfolk on the 6th September. She was technically decommissioned from the Navy in October 1919 and her ownership changed to the new Royal Air Force, who took over all airship operations

Airshipsonline : Airships : R32 (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r32/index.html)

quod erat demonstrandum per chance?

LJ :ok:

[green granite]

All Officers serving with the Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Flying Corps on the 31st March 1918, or in connection with those Services in certain Government Departments, in other than the undermentioned capacities, are granted temporary commissions in the Royal Air Force, with effect from the 1st April, 1918, in ranks which will appear in the Royal Air Force List. Can I claim my virtual beer for this?

Sorry no, see post #23 :p

[Lima Juliet]

Ok, so it was a private venture at Cardington until Apr 19 when the Royal Airship Works began having been bought by the Air Ministry - so that covers R31. But R32 was definately a RAF Pulham bird and that changed hands on 1 Apr 18.

So I still claim my beer...

[GreenKnight121]

I see your point... unless someone can dispute that website's claim of transfer of ownership, then it seems R32 counts.

[mike rondot]

LJ

Close, but still no beer. There were no military rigid airship flights after October 1919. R32 was operated by the Admiralty until "technically", but not actually, transferred to the RAF.

The roundel signified intent, not active service with the Royal Air Force. AFAIK R32 flew only post manufacturing trials for and by the Navy up to October 1919. Flight after that date was as part of the Imperial Airship Scheme.

Nice try.

Mike R

[baffman]

The roundel doesn't seem conclusive either way, since it had been used by the RNAS before. Surely what it indicates is "British military aircraft" of any service.

[mike rondot]

Baffman

I agree with you, and thanks for adding another protective layer to my beer-backed assertion that the Royal Air Force has never operated a rigid airship.

[Lima Juliet]

Mike

The R32 certainly did fly after the initial trials, here is a quote from the same website:

The ship was then flown up to Howden on 20th March 1920. The ship was put in the hanger for some time whilst the crew got to know her and general airship operations

The Imperial Airship Scheme was for later G Reg aircraft - R32 was definately on the mil register.

LJ:ok:

[mike rondot]

I spoke to the custodian and author of that website Airshipsonline : Airships : R32 (http://www.airshipsonline.com/airships/r32/index.html). The references and footnotes to the text are a bit thin so I suspect some oral history has crept in to the "facts".

I asked him the same question: Has the RAF ever operated a rigid airship?. He did not know the answer either.

I suspect that R32 was flown under HMG/Admiralty orders/flag to try to generate US interest to retrieve some of the enormous cost of building. By all accounts, the RAF was NFI in rigid airships and wanted nothing to do with them.

TSR2 and other prototype aircraft were given mil register serial numbers, but they were not operated by the RAF.