Light aircraft down at Chester?

[mark25787]

Sky News reporting light aircraft down near Chester - maybe Hawarden Airport?
Any more info on it anywhere?

[johnnygal]

Radio Merseyside 10pm news reported it as a glider from Hawarden.

[mark25787]

Would be surprised if it was a glider - RAF Sealand stopped gliding years ago and no gliding facilities at the main airport.

[Prop swinger]

Possibly a TMG or flexwing micro?
BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19290501)

[Ronaldsway Radar]

BBC now reporting as a two-seater light aircraft with 2 on-board.

Hoping with crossed fingers it wasn't one of the PA38's from the Flying School.

Either way, really hope nobody was hurt too badly.

[spaul66]

Light aircraft crash near Chester

Incident ID: 12712
Date/Time: 16/08/2012 20:43
Address: Chapel Lane, Aldford, Near Chester
Attendance: Two fire engines from Chester
Details


Just before 8.45 pm the Service received calls about a light aircraft crash in a field near Chapel Lane, Aldfrod, near Chester.
Two fire engines from Chester went to the scene and on arrival crews found a two seater plane had crashed into a field.
Police and parademics were also on the scene and firefighters assisted them in gaining access to the aircraft which contained a pilot and a passenger.
The Aircraft Accident Investigation Unit have been informed and crews currently remain at the incident assisting the police.

[flybymike]

Allegedly PA38 with two fatalities.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Sadly it would seem it is a PA38 with two dead.

Fatal Aircraft Crash on Outskirts of Wrexham / Chester | Wrexham.com (http://www.wrexham.com/news/light-aircraft-crash-outskirts-wrexham-11126.html)

The newspaper linked to above also covered the story of a Tiger moth crash in the area three days earlier.

Plane Crashes Outside of Wrexham (Pics) | Wrexham.com (http://www.wrexham.com/news/plane-crashes-wrexham-10933.html)

[tmmorris]

What a sensible, non-sensational article on Wrexham.com, and they are prepare to write corrections and admit when they are wrong. Very unusual and admirable.

[fireflybob]

Cheshire plane crash: Men from north Wales and Surrey killed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18608871)

Aircraft type reportedly Piper Tomahawk.

[WALSue]

I know at least one of the people killed in the accident.
A real shock to all who knew them.

[daisy120]

Sad news..RIP GUYS AND GOD'S SPEED TO THE NEXT FLIGHT.....

[Ronaldsway Radar]

In light of the above posts I can only presume the worst.

My deepest sympathies and most sincere condolences to the families of the two involved.

I'd also like to second PapaEchoNovember's post - such a great bunch of people and this is a true loss to the flying world.

RR

[Pace]

My condolences too to all those affected.
What a cruel mistress this passion of ours can be!!!

Pace

[Hen Ddraig]

Sad loss of a very experienced career instructor and a good friend of many years.

Hen ddraig

[CaptainTC]

Anybody heard anything else on this? I heard Hawarden ATC where trying to contact G-BODP. Not sure if its true..... Flintshire Flying School operate that Aircraft, I've flown it a few times in the past.

Sad news about the two guys killed :(

[CaptainTC]

BBC News - Cheshire plane crash: Men from north Wales and Surrey killed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18608871)

BBC are stating the PA38 was registered with Flintshire Flying School..., this is so sad :(

[vkw91]

Really sad news! Flinshire Flying School is one of the best!

[Desspot]

Why was arial photography mentioned on BBC news? The unpleasant assumption is that an important surface detached? Or is that a standard AAIB thing? Sorry if this is a stupid or inappropriate comment. Des

[robione]

I am deeply saddend at the very tragic loss of my friend and fellow instructor.He was an absolute gentleman of the first order,and i look back at times we spent instructing together with great memories. Words are hard to find to explain my feelings.My thoughts are with all his family and friends.My thoughts are also with his students family and friends.God bless you all

[vkw91]

Both men have now been officially named.

Two men in Churton fatal aircraft collision named - Cheshire Constabulary (http://www.cheshire.police.uk/news--appeals/latest-news/2012/08/two-men-in-churton-fatal-aircr.aspx)

Sad sad news! Both lovely guys and will be sorely missed! x

[Phil Parry]

Saddened to hear about this.

I'll always remember John Green as a lovely bloke. He was the first person I met at Hawarden when I turned up on a whim one sunny Sunday afternoon to find out about how to get started flying

I remember him saying it was a shame I'd turned up so late as we could have gone up, but never mind, we could take a look at the Tomahawk and other aeroplanes resident in the 'Big Hanger' and he did so for the next hour, enthusiastically discussing the aircraft there.

It was that enthusiasm and friendliness that ensured my return and he was my instructor for my very first flight and for a few of the hours that followed before I moved on to another instructor.

One of the times we flew will stay with me forever. He took the controls, aimed for a hole in the cloud and chased around one for a little while before heading back down below the cloud layer again. It doesn't sound like much but in my first few hours it was the most amazing thing ever.

Despite me being bloody awful in the beginning he had a lot of patience and professionalism and I thought him a really nice guy.

A really sad loss.

[JOSHUA]

Shocked and saddened.
Fourteen years ago I embarked on my PPL with Chester flying school, John was my instructor who expertly guided me through those early days in my aviation career - I have many aviation first memories sat beside John at the controls of a Tomahawk, it was always a pleasure to fly with him. To this day I have always felt indebted to him for his contribution getting me to where I am today.
On my next flight as I paint my contrails across the skies, I will think of you John.

[ariel]

Also extremely shocked and saddened to hear about this.
After completing half of my PPL at Bournemouth, I finished it at Hawarden, about 10 years ago, and John was my instructor.

A career instructor, he was always very calm, very safe, and very knowledgeable, and a pleasure to fly with. This is a hugh loss to general aviation

[VeeAny]

I first met John at Woodvale when he worked at West Lancs Aero Club, I didn't fly with him much but I always thought him a good bloke.

If anyone has funeral arrangements can you PM them to me if not public, one of his former colleagues is a friend of mine and wants to know about them.


Gary

[funfly]

Is there any indication of what happened?

[Denny M]

I have heard the funeral is Wednesday 29th at 3pm, Chester Crematorium Blacon and there are plans to meet at the Little Owl pub Chester afterwards.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi Gary, I knew John from Hawarden as my PPL Instructor, and also Karl as a Broughton employee and member of my local model aero club.

The plane seems to have impacted the ground wheels first, and the tail snapped off to the right. I hope the AAIB soon give their results, as many Instructors and Pupils are still using these planes. The HM Coroner's Inquest will be held in a few months time , when all the facts are known.

I think the funeral of John will be at Chester Crematorium at 15:00 on Wednesday 29th August.

Pete

[Run-and-break]

I can confirm that John's funeral will be as mentioned above, 15:00 Wednesday 29th August at Chester Crematorium and afterwards to 'The Little Owl' which is a short car journey from the crematorium.

Also, it would be appreciated if speculation about what has happened could be discussed elsewhere.

Thanks.

[PapaEchoNovember]

The AAIB report has been released in the July Bulletin.

BBC News - Engine failure 'may have caused' Chester plane crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23272579)

A light aircraft crash near Chester which killed two men last year may have been caused by engine failure, air accident investigators have said.Air Accidents Investigation: Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk, G-BODP (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/july_2013/piper_pa_38_112_tomahawk__g_bodp.cfm)

[Hen Ddraig]

BBC must have a different version of the report to the one I read.

Time to spare, go by air.
Hen ddraig

[astir 8]

AAIB = Stall demo, wing drop, accidental spin, too low to recover.

At least that's what I read

BBC says engine problem??????

[mad_jock]

Noticed that they haven't picked up on how much fuel which was in the tanks if it did spin.

If you have anymore than above the middle of the X in the tanks the spin is shall we say extreme. I have never done one with 30 mins out of a tank and the other full but I have only once done one with a bit more than the X which I never repeated due to the level of excitement in fact after that I tried to keep spinning to an hour in the tanks and 30 min reserve.

If it did spin with full tanks I wouldn't be surprised if the engine did stop due to fuel either the float chamber or the weight of it being to much for the fuel pump.

[119.35]

'Refuelled to full tanks 2 flying hours prior to the last flight.'

Sounds as though it had been flown for 2 hrs prior to the last flight, so approx 2.5 hrs from full tanks up to the accident? It's not overly clear, but that's how I read it??

[mad_jock]

Yep your right re-reading it 69ltrs which would have been over the cross though I think full tanks is 115ltrs from a very distant memory.

About the same as when I had my interesting "spin".

Mine was on purpose from 6000ft and took 4000ft to come out. The plane did 2 turns with full rudder applied and stick forward slightly before it started to spin faster as it was coming out. It stopped spinning at 3000ft and we recovered to S&L at 2000ft, we were over the sea.

Whole thing took 15 seconds and we did 5-6 rotations I think. With 1.5 hours fuel in the tanks the normal would have been 2000ft lost and 3 rotations in the same time.

[119.35]

Bloody hell!!

[A le Ron]

"AAIB = Stall demo, wing drop, accidental spin, too low to recover.

At least that's what I read

BBC says engine problem"

Now I get it. In BBC speak, stall=engine failure:ugh:

[wb9999]

The BBC's report is consistent with the AAIB's report.

"The engine did not appear to have been operating with any significant power when the aircraft struck the ground, and may not have been turning at all. No cause for an engine failure could be found but the POH states that the engine may stop while the aircraft is spinning. However, it was not possible to determine when the engine power reduced", and in the conclusion: "an engine failure prior to the loss of control of the aircraft could not be ruled out."

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, Piper's May 2012 revision to the POH says that you should recover by 4000ft. If you are slow flying, and a stall/spin is likely, that means that you should add a further 1500ft. i.e. start the manoeuvre above 5500ft.

The implication is that any slow flight below 5500ft is dangerous in a Tomahawk, which makes landing it a bit difficult.

I had an encounter with a vortex from the A380 building at Hawarden, whilst John was instructing, I lost about 100ft of the 150ft whilst crossing the fence on final.... We were both lucky that day.

[mad_jock]

I can't see them surviving much longer.

If you have any problems with the nose gear that needs a replacement that's the aircraft scrapped.

It not dangerous per say but you have to be switched on as an instructor and also fly the thing properly. Any pissing about hoofing the rudder pedals while slow and low is a tad silly.

Shame really, as they are an extremely good initial trainer. And in my opinion produce a better pilot than some of the other more benign trainers.

[piperboy84]

If you have any problems with the nose gear that needs a replacement that's the aircraft scrapped

Surprised the gear was unique to the Tomo, i would have thought that when Piper was building them during the 7O'S & 80'S with all the financial probs they had they would have used the same gear from something that was already in production like the Warrior, shame really a lot of nice little planes like the Tomo will get written off because of lack of parts.

[A and C]

Why is it a surprise to some of you that when the correct spin recovery action is initiated the roll rate increases ?

This should have been made crystal clear during your training !

[mad_jock]

It didn't surprise me. I was rather thankful when it did speed up.

And I would imagine that to pilots that have only spun Cessna 150/152's the tommy spin would be a bit of a shock what ever happens. Must admit thought the effect of "extra" fuel in the tanks caused me to hit the books again.

[BigEndBob]

Operated a Tomy for about a year. Did lots of spins, a bit vicious if you've only spun 152's in the past and see why in the early days it had problems.
Returning to the field one day said to student, i will show you a spin from 4500 feet. So entered as normal, pattered through and the recovery. Then it went into the high rotation mode, very nose down.
Held it in spin recovery, but i tell you i didn't think it would recover.
Remembering the Slingsby spin problems i recalled reading the spin trials after some accident.
So i went back into pro spin and was a bit more positive on the next recovery go and it came out of the spin at 1500 feet.
Needles to say the Tomy had tarnished its books with me. Never spun it again.
I won't be sad when the last one is crushed up, it was a good attempt at a cheap trainer.
I always thought there was something wrong with the T tail design.
Try demonstrating primary effect of rudder and the nose pitches down, very strange, as though the tailplane is loosing some downforce.

[mad_jock]

There are only about 5 in the UK that have been allowed to spin for over ten years now.

If it doesn't have a full harness your not to spin them.

And how much fuel did you have onboard at the time?

[funfly]

Piper tomahawk spin - YouTube

[mad_jock]

Yep that's a normal one with I might add some unnecessary boot of rudder to put it in.

If you have to much fuel in it rotates 2 twice as fast as that.

If you use the ailerons you can take the spin flatter which is why the nose was a bit high to begin with when spinning.

Boo after watching that I want to go spinning tommys again

[A and C]

It's all to do with the A over B ratio , the more mass in the wings the better is spins.

[mad_jock]

I don't know if better is quite the way I would put it.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

It looks like that youtube clip was taken over the Vale of Glamorgan in South Wales?

I did all my spinning in the Tommy there.

Not my favourite aeroplane. (Neither is the R22)

[BigEndBob]

That videos typical...not what i experienced by far.

Got to be over ten years since i spun one.

Doing a few tests lately and been suprised when candidates have been quite happy to initiate stalls at 2000 feet! having done a HASELL check.
Only explanation is that their instructors have been doing this due to some recent rubbish weather and low cloud.

All well and good i tell them till one day they have a go at stalling something they are not familiar with and it all goes pear shaped.