Morale

[Startrek3]

According to the MoD the fact that forces morale is at its lowest ebb is ok because at least the books now balance!! So no additional cuts for ABC13 and a pay rise next year then.


Armed Forces morale at its lowest ebb since 2008, Mirror study reveals - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/armed-forces-morale-at-its-lowest-ebb-1263337)

[Courtney Mil]

An MOD spokesman said: “We have made tough decisions to get the defence budget back into balance.”

Aah. Poor them having to make the tough decisions. But it was the serving personnel that had to live with your tough decision.



In my opinion, those attitude serveys always, somehow, managed to paint a much rosier picture of the way people felt than was evident at the front line. Always looked bit like the outcome of a BoI; "Don't bore me with the facts and evidence gathered by the Board, I've decided to reach my own conclusions that suit my own adgenda."

[tucumseh]

The "tough" decision would be to name and shame those who wasted the money in the first place.

[Jimlad1]

"Aah. Poor them having to make the tough decisions. But it was the serving personnel that had to live with your tough decision."

Another classic example of the military mindset that somehow boxes up 'the MOD' and decides that it is a separate organisation to the armed forces and therefore can be blamed ad naueseum.

In reality those decision were taken by serving personnel, who will be living with them. The MOD is the military - whether the military like it or not!

[Courtney Mil]

I anticipated that response. :ouch:

I was going to explain about ivory towers, ministerial decisions, top brass, etc, but it's all too difficult. :(

[The Nip]

Sadly after 32 years I am seeing the Service that I joined as a personal commitment change to something I am not familiar. I, as a young recruit, was told that integrity, moral courage and selfless Service was paramount. Being responsible for my decisions would decide my own future. It seems that the RAF is now a ‘job’ and is treated as such. This has turned some elements into a social experiment. I was under the impression that you joined up knowing that you would abide by laws and regulations. Not enlist then want to change them to suit your own personal circumstances.
It would be unfair to blame the RAF alone. Our own politicians don’t seem to be responsible for the decisions they make. It seems personal gain is more important than ‘Serving your country’.
Are things worse? No, just different for a different generation.

[tucumseh]

In reality those decision were taken by serving personnel,


What decisions?

To cut personnel/equipment programmes to compensate for wasted money?

Or to waste the money in the first place?


If you don't or can't think beyond the first, then you're part of the problem.

If you can't name those responsible for the second, you haven't been paying attention.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It seems that the RAF is now a ‘job’

I think every profession or Service is now a 'job'. Teaching has gone this way too. I treat colleagues with the same qualities of tolerance, loyalty etc that I always did in the RAF, but HR and senior management I treat with the contempt they deserve. They started it, and I believe the only route to change is to hit them where it hurts - in the pocket and hassle-factor.

Question: Who would now recommend to teenagers a career in the Services?

(Job, maybe, for what you can get out of it, but not a career)

[goudie]

Shurely, if morale is low, then beatings should continue until it bluddy well improves!

[charliegolf]

Foxy, I have to challenge you on the teaching bit- something we both clearly have strong views about. In my school, the staff really walk in ignorance of the Teachers' Pay and Conditions 'blue book'. Why, because I ensure they get their due and more. They in turn, don't play the 'not my job' card, and go the extra mile. Eg, funerals of non close family (not entitled to go)- I never refuse because it's important to them. Dentals and doctors the same. In return, I expect deadlines to be met, planning to be done and all the rest. Within my oft stated assertion that, "This is not a democracy", morale is high, as are standards.

Regards

CG

Sorry for drift, everyone.

[Mike Rosewhich]

CG, My wife and many of our friends are teachers. Anecdotal evidence is that you are defiantly in the minority, and if there is ignorance of pay and conditions it is out of loyalty and obligation to the children, not to the management or local government.

Back on thread, I will only support (not encourage) my kids to join up if they do so with a short term aim to gain experience and training, not as a career. Since leaving I've discovered there are many opportunities that reward your effort and endeavours, not rely on them to keep a broken system working for the benefit of others.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Shurely, if morale is low, then beatings should continue until it bluddy well improves!"

Not quite the Imperial Japaneses Submarine Service yet...............

[Chugalug2]

Jimlad1:
The MOD is the military - whether the military like it or not!
The MOD is not the military, the military is in places like Afghanistan suffering from the incompetence and self serving policies of the MOD. There may be members of the military in the MOD, some of whom have been promoted to the level of their own incompetence, some of whom additionally may be following their own self serving policies. That does not mean that the MOD is the military. It is not. On the contrary the MOD as a whole constitutes are far more deadly adversary than the military is ever likely to be called upon to confront in the field. Another of Mountbatten's "good ideas" that has cost far too much life and treasure.

[Courtney Mil]

Can't argue with that.

[Out Of Trim]

Hopefully the MOD have the same low morale; to match their low performance!

They and the Government should be hanging their heads in shame.

[Pontius Navigator]

A few years ago, at a PR/media seminar, the point was made from the top that MOD = Bad, RAF = Good. Now would I be a cynic to suspect that there is actually a plan for the bad news to remain at the centre and the good news to go to the Service?

[zedder]

Some definite Nail and Head action there Chug.

Military types that work in MOD soon realise they have to become 'Political Animals' to survive and potentially get anything achieved.

The trouble is, the moment they turn into said Political Animals they are then totally unable to properly look out for the interests of the Military.

[MFC_Fly]

From the Mirror article...
Morale among our Armed Forces heroes has slumped under the Coalition.


Job cuts, botched defence reviews and pay caps last year put the military at its lowest ebb since 2008.
So, in other words if it is at its lowest SINCE 2008 surely in 2008, under the previous New Liarbour Government, morale must have been lower than it is now? Therefore morale must have picked up (not sure I remember when that was!) before falling again, but is still not as low as it was under the previous bunch of political idiots :rolleyes:

[muttywhitedog]

I reckon if the survey was done now, morale would be even lower. The Olympics security debacle has driven most people to the depths of despair.

My unit is broken. 20% downgraded or sick, largely due to the 3 times a week beastings from the PTIs, and of the rest, 15% are OOA, 15% are on reserve for OOA, 30% are on Olympic Duties. It leaves 20% remaining, many of whom are either posted shortly with no replacement, discharged with no replacement, on guard (still have to do that!), or untrained and therefore not able to be utilised.

My management have tried to refuse taskings that come in, but the upper echalons only hear white noise. The end result being that people cannot get their OOA prep done because they are constantly doing another task, meaning those OOA are having to stag on for longer.....

Morale is rock bottom at my place.

[whowhenwhy]

When somone mentioned to a 2* the other day that fulfilling his requests might take a little time due to lack of people and too short a deadline, he apparently pointed out that there were "24 hours in a day" and people should "dry their eyes." Well done Sir, inspiring!:{

[Melchett01]

When somone mentioned to a 2* the other day that fulfilling his requests might take a little time due to lack of people and too short a deadline, he apparently pointed out that there were "24 hours in a day" and people should "dry their eyes."

Your 2* sounds like a complete cock! At least at my place the 2 and 1*s will turn off taskings and then go in to bat on our behalf. As any good leader and manager should. Unless of course, they are more interested in promotions and knighthoods than unit effectiveness. Doesn't change the fact that morale at our unit is, overall, pretty low and the MO we have on Staff said of the results of a staff survey that if the unit was his patient he would be considering prescribing anti-depressants all round.

Edited to add that despite having grown up leadership in place, it's still all pretty ropey.

[enginesuck]

Morale on my Sqn is non-existant. I loved my job and the service but i had no alternative but to send off that letter in January - ( 8 months out of 15 OOA and a lucrative alternative job in civvy st forced my hand. I was successful. I now only have four nightshifts left in the RAF. To those who remain, Per Ardua.

[Easy Street]

Re the "24 hours in a day" comment - it's a reflection on the terrible working practices of 2* / 3* officers. How do they think they are in a fit state to make important decisions at 8pm having been at work since 6:30am?

Anyone who thinks they are important enough that they need to be in the office for 14 hours a day, plus a solo Sunday afternoon email session, either has too big an area of responsibility or is appalling at delegation.

Edited to add: Or they are afraid of making big decisions, so they spend far too long looking at trivia.

[Cows getting bigger]

I chose to jump ship a few years back not long after a particular Stn Cdrs conference at Coningsby. The massed crowds were discussing a variety of issues when OC Cottesmore commented that there was no 'fun' anymore. At that, AOC 1Gp, brown nosing to CinC STC, responded by asking said stn cdr whether he had ordered him not to have fun. Knob.

I understand the chap is now a faceless 3-star in Europe somewhere. Probably still a knob.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Quote:
When somone mentioned to a 2* the other day that fulfilling his requests might take a little time due to lack of people and too short a deadline, he apparently pointed out that there were "24 hours in a day"....


...and perhaps the response should have been "yes, Sir, but if there are 24 hours in this day, then there are no more than 8 hrs tomorrow..."

Seniority's short term mindset in a nutshell.:rolleyes:

[Scotch Bonnet]

Its probably appropriate to point out the MOD/Senior Officers/Civil Servants legislative policy statement at the moment. "We have never forgotten that you have no choice". And before some wag says yes you have, you can leave I would like to point out that at times I have enjoyed keeping my pile of piece in one ****. where's Bob Crow when you need him.

[Biggus]

Nice to see in this day and age of "health and safety", "human factors", "quality improvement", and supposedly more enlightened times that a 2*'s approach is that of a Victorian mill owner who simply works his employees to death..... (see post 20)



Hopefully he'll be one of the 25% to be cut!! :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/493379-quarter-top-military-posts-go.html

[Biggus]

"Who did it?"



Deny everything Baldrick!!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Biggus. You forgot:

http://www.recyclinglives.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/investors_in_people_logo-360x240.jpg

[Biggus]

GBZ,

I didn't, we don't do IIP any more.....

[tucumseh]

But in the case of the Gov't, I know that Labour, and Gordon 'the traitor' Brown (who should be hanged as the traitorous scumbag he is) are DIRECTLY responsible and culpable for the mess the whole country is in. But, I want to know which of the UK's Air Officers has allowed the RAF to fall into the desperate straits in which it now find itself. They should be sacked at best, prosecuted most likely. Why should they be allowed to escape their incompetence?

While I agree with the sentiments expressed, it is a simple fact that Labour were not in power when the policy was formulated (June 1987) and issued (Jan 1988) by AMSO to knowingly waste money on a scale that would make your eyes water. This deliberate waste was formally reported to PUS (Chief Accounting Officer) in Jan 1988 and June 1996 by MoD's own auditors.

Successive regimes, including Labour, have supported both the policy and those who actively and enthusiastically implemented it. The last five Ministers for the Armed Forces (Labour and Coalition) have been happy to condone these actions, in writing.

As for Gordon Brown, for all his faults he is the one senior politician to have condemned MoD, calling it a "citadel of waste". What puzzled me was his apparent refusal to do anything about it when he had the opportunity.

The Public Accounts Committee, by convention, is chaired by an Opposition MP; currently Margaret Hodge. (Which is why there is always shared blame in such matters, but it is also a self-healing arrangement). Again, successive versions have been vocal about waste, but as soon as the underlying cause and culprits are revealed to them, they mysteriously back off. This has happened again very recently. Why? It can only be to protect the guilty who, as you say, should be rotting in gaol.

Why gaol? Because by perpetrating this waste they MUST have breached the legal obligations they were under and made false written declarations - which is fraud.

But the same successive regimes have ruled that committing this fraud is NOT an offence in MoD. The facts are not denied by MoD. I have the letters with the signatures of all these decision makers, so the answer to "Who did it" (as well as "Who encouraged and protected them?") is well known.

[dalek]

New regulations (according to the Telegraph), mean all Military Personnel now have to travel Economy Class (Most Circumstances) . Have similar changes been made for the Civil Service? A friend of mine, who ranks lowest of the low (in Civil Service terms), always goes First Class by rail because her Boss (a Sqn Ldr equivalent), travels with her.

[Pontius Navigator]

dalek, yes, they travel 2nd class too.

We stopped IiP because we couldn't afford it. I know one money waster was Brian Burridge's dirctive for everyone to get the ECDL. Complete waste of time and money. Instead of teaching people how to write it would have been better teaching those that wanted to how to type.

Interesting to comparecivil service courses and military ones. CS ones generally last a day, employ a couple of facilitators who have probably never met before and are usually a waste of money.

RAF ones generally lsast one week or two, start on a Monday thus requiring travel on Saturday or Sundayand you usually learn something.

[Prop Fwd]

Strange that; my fiancee is 'Wing Commander equivalent' in the Civil Service and she went standard class to 'shabby wood' the other week.

[tucumseh]

travels with her

The cost of attending meetings double handed far exceeds the difference between 1st and 2nd class travel! A technical Project Manager in what was MoD(PE) was required to be able to carry out every job in the team, so there was seldom justification for anyone else to travel, the exception being if he had a trainee with him.

When IPTs were formed (2nd time round, not the late 80s model) IPTLs were given the authority to drive a bus through the regulations. It was "their" budget and they could spend it as they liked. So you'd get the indirect labour (invariably the senior grades/ranks with no responsibility or accountability) swanning off on 1st class jollies and drinking the hotel bar dry on the IPT account (literally, on one notorious occasion) and direct labour (usually the lower ranks, but those with the signature) refused permission to attend the likes of design and safety meetings they were meant to be chairing. That would explain the situation Dalek describes.

This also serves to highlight the basic problem I've come across in many IPTs . The "pyramid" is inverted, with the most senior staffs surplus to requirements as they contribute little. And yes, before you ask, I've been an IPTL, but 23 years ago when IPTs were not bloated with untrained staffs each doing a fraction of a job!

[Al R]

The MOD is not the military, the military is in places like Afghanistan suffering from the incompetence and self serving policies of the MOD. There may be members of the military in the MOD, some of whom have been promoted to the level of their own incompetence, some of whom additionally may be following their own self serving policies. That does not mean that the MOD is the military. It is not.

Well said Chuggley.

[Chugalug2]

tuc:
While I agree with the sentiments expressed, it is a simple fact that Labour were not in power when the policy was formulated (June 1987) and issued (Jan 1988) by AMSO to knowingly waste money on a scale that would make your eyes water.
So the rot set in under PM Margaret Thatcher and her SOS for Defence, Michael Heseltine. Organised and deliberate gross waste that was recouped (or at least that was the plan) by a direct attack within the MOD upon Air Safety, and in particular the budget for the provision of UK Military Airworthiness. Those responsible are known and evidence has been submitted to two judicial reviews, the civil police and the RAF Provost Marshal. Nothing has been done, not even an interview, as they are evidently "honourable men". Evil happens when good men do nothing!
There have been 62 deaths alone in Airworthiness related military air accidents reviewed in this forum, broken careers, and most devastating of all, a system that remains broken and will continue to be so until the MAAIB and the MAA are made independent of the MOD and of each other.

[4fitter]

Sad that 2* in post 20 believes his own spin. My experience at HQ Castle Grey Skulls is of very supportive grown ups and we do say no - especially to Centre. Moreover, my team are encouraged to question where value is dubious and to seek explanations of new words/jargon. Not surprisingly, less bull, higher productivity and more time for meaningful tasks.

[NutLoose]

I always thought the simple cure for low Morale was in the word itself..

Mor Ale






.

[mike rondot]

On a miserable day on 85 Squadron at West Raynham in the early 1970s we used to shout "More beer, longer runways, bigger women". That seemed to cheer people up, albeit briefly.

[BEagle]

Isn't 'faster horses' missing from your list, Mike?

[Courtney Mil]

Best morale booster I had at HQ 1 Gp when our staff was cut again, but not the workload, was my 1 Star telling me not to work harder, but to work smarter. I hated to mention to him that what he saw was as smart as I get.

[Melchett01]

On a miserable day on 85 Squadron at West Raynham in the early 1970s we used to shout "More beer, longer runways, bigger women". That seemed to cheer people up, albeit briefly.

Mike, that would probably cheer most people up. Unfortunately, drinking during working hours is now frowned upon - and many places I have worked are under instructions not to serve alcohol during the day. Runways are closing down left right and centre or being replaced by shorter runways to cater for UAVs and STOVL. And bigger women - well, many are getting bigger, much much bigger, but not I suspect in the sense you are alluding to.

[NutLoose]

Not allowed to serve alcohol during the day?? :{

Blimey, you could even get the stuff when you were in a military hospital And that was as a patient!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Indeed.
A can of Guinness each was handed out by the nurses after doctors's rounds at 11am - even to a 16 year old cadet like me.

Nurses, Guinness...repeat for rest of life!

[NutLoose]

Sounds like the Death Knell for the Royal Navy then

With todays anti social view and the ban on smoking in Company Vehicles..

Remove the RUM and TOBACCO ... And all you are left with is BUM.


No wonder Morale is so low..

:E

[Melchett01]

Remove the RUM and TOBACCO ... And all you are left with is BUM.


And even that's been decreed as 'legal' these days. Just as well really given that all that seems to be available is the near constant offer of a ruddy big bat being inserted by the system on a daily basis. May be the 2 are linked? :E

[BEagle]

Not allowed to serve alcohol during the day??

Some of us fighter folk were visiting Neatishead one day, not long after this heavy-handed 'no drinking at lunchtime' nanny-state edict had been crapped down upon us from on high.

Whilst we were sipping Coca-Cola or something equally boring in the OM bar, the wonderful and much-loved Gp Capt 'Auntie' Joan Hopkins, Neat's Stn Cdr entered with a couple weasel-featured 'suits' from 11Gp in tow, who'd made it to the wilds of Norfolk without being buggered too savagely by the local six-fingered inbreds.

"Beer?" she asked her guest.... "Err, well, if it's OK, ma'am" came the feeble response. "3 pints please" asked Joan, "Well, what do you think of it?". "Err, very nice, ma'am". "It is, isn't it! Of course it's non-alcoholic, but I tasked the bar officer to find the very best he could, now that we're not allowed real beer at lunchtime any more!"

Point made in her own inimitable style!

[Farrier]

Melchett,

Legal?? It's positively encouraged!!

[sitigeltfel]

Melchett,

Legal?? It's positively encouraged!!

But not compulsory.....







....yet :p

[Wander00]

Nutloose/Fox3-remember well a bottle of Guinness a day for the three weeks (THREEWEEKS!) I was in RAFH Ely after a cartilege operation. But only for othopaedic patientsts, not the same for surgery or medical patients - none when I had my tonsilectomy.

[dixb]

... or cancel all leave until morale improves.
An alternative might be to arrange more Op dets so the stretch increases - after all flexibility is the key to air power!

[Courtney Mil]

Yeah, that's flexibility, not elasticity.

[Al-bert]

but surely, with time off to watch the Olympics and five star Vegas hotels with 'hot chicks' to recover from all that secondary jock strapping, morale should be at an all time high?:E

[Courtney Mil]

Every year since 1984, the morale in the Armed Forces has been reprted at an "all time low." That doesn't mean it isn't true, of course.

[reds & greens]

Copied from a prominent office wall at ISTAR Central...

Reasons why working for MacDonalds is better than the RAF
1. Better uniform
2. More medals and people respect them as they show you can do your job
3. Free food, properly cooked
4. Promotion on ability
5. The average MacDonalds is in the middle of town, not in the middle of nowhere
6. When children have tantrums, it is because they are under the age of 12
7. MacDonalds do not pretend they are investing in people
8. Superior supply system
9. Sh*gg*ng the manageress is not a crime
10. Only the customer is called sir
11. You can leg it to Burger King at a minutes notice
12. Ronald MacDonald has the decency to smile whilst shafting you
13. You wont have to do door guard
14. There is no MacDonalds in the Falklands
15. MacDonalds only has one clown

[NutLoose]

But it's not as bad as 84, because they have got rid of most of the people in the Forces.... Hence it must have improved.

Less people = less people with low Morale..

[Pontius Navigator]

but surely, with time off to watch the Olympics and five star Vegas hotels with 'hot chicks' to recover from all that secondary jock strapping, morale should be at an all time high?:E

What jock strap?

[Pontius Navigator]

1 Star telling me not to work harder, but to work smarter.

Dead easy in the electronic age.

Any email in the TFD category - DELETE.

Any email received while on leave - DELETE.

Any email in the easy category from the same sender as TFD - DELETE.

Any email that is easy, forward.

If it is important they will send again.

[Willard Whyte]

E-mails, as with 'phone calls in the good old days...

If it's important they'll ring back.

If it's really important they'll do it themselves.

[oldmansquipper]

Hmmm..As I recall, I.P.Ts morphed from the spambuzz term "Multi-Discipline Groups" around `86....

Even then, there were numerous `career pattern` inserts who had no idea WTF they were expected to talk about and spent most of their staff tours ducking & diving. I recall my branch Wg Cdr saying to me "Well, Mister OMS, I know you have given me a comprehensive brief on all of the issues and I`m sure you are right in your conclusions....However, I am posted next month, so I expect you to keep all the balls in the air till after I`ve gone"

I fear nothing changes much - except there are even fewer at the pointy (bottom) end of the triangle...

[orca]

Possibly worth considering:

I have always thought it strange that no review or study - be it SDSR or a 'value stream analysis' or even dear Courtney rearranging the desks at group (BZ old chap - I'd buy the DVD if there was one) is ever followed by a ticking off of the previous regime.

We always pat someone on the back for having sorted stuff out, made savings, got the depth maintenance working etc etc without then going after the incompetent half-wits who presided over the broken system that we have now fixed.

In one of my (sadly not isolated) moments of putting senior noses somewhat out of kilter I advised on a programme for making the aircrew briefing process on some well known war canoes vaguely fit for purpose. When we (implemented by ludicrously well paid civilians) had achieved the bleeding obvious (that us young fellows had been arguing for for a couple of tours) I enquired politely whether there would be any repercussions for the officers who had overseen the mess from which we had emerged. The answer, naturally was a resounding 'no' (to summarise) as they had been promoted out of the shambles.

[tucumseh]

orca

I have always thought it strange that no review or study - be it SDSR or a 'value stream analysis' ...... is ever followed by a ticking off of the previous regime.

Even though occasionally I may seem slightly critical, this is a difficult one. One seldom knows what boundaries and constraints the previous staffs were working under. With Servicemen usually on 2-3 year tours, it was almost always the civil servants who had this deeper understanding as it was they who provided continuity (and, kept the records/evidence!). This is no longer the case.



Most people act in a way they think best. There is a reluctance to criticise and in general I agree with that. The notable exceptions (in my opinion) are the decisions/policies made with personal gain in mind. The concealing of waste by the unnecessary slashing of airworthiness budgets is the one I always cite. I firmly believe this was carried out by one VSO (AMSO / RAF Chief Engineer in 1991-94) to conceal the incompetence of his AMSO predecessors. This unholy alliance continues to this day, with all of them continuing to protect each others’ backs and support each other; for example, against the MoK pilots who were scapegoated to conceal this incompetence. When considering most of the really major screw ups over the last 20 odd years, you need look no further than the MoK case and the VSOs who stood against the pilots.



These same people are also meant to apply “management oversight” and it is at THAT level we should always look, not some junior Gp Capt or Wg Cdr.


We moan and groan about relatively minor organisational issues, but the real biggies are the many examples of avoidable loss of life, caused by sacrificing safety to make savings, in order to conceal waste. (This last bit, to conceal waste, is what Haddon-Cave omitted; whoever prompted THAT omission is the kind of person you are talking about. And, as the 2i/c of the MAA must have been party to this.......). At 2 Star level and above, Chinook (MoK and Mk3), Nimrod (XV230 and MRA4), Tornado/Patriot, C130 XV179 and others can be narrowed down to THE SAME small cadre. We know their names; they wrote to the press often enough. Very few understand the fact it is only a relative few. Not one has ever been called to account. All you can say is one of them at least had the balls (more likely arrogance!) to post here openly denigrating the MoK pilots; although it will be remembered he never actually answered a question!

[Pontius Navigator]

We always pat someone on the back for having sorted stuff out, made savings, got the depth maintenance working etc etc without then going after the incompetent half-wits who presided over the broken system that we have now fixed.

Very profound and a view I have always held.

One, a CS, used to work at the AirSec's department in Adastral House. His job was to process 1369s and 1020 reports. The latter was an aspect he did not like and which worried him. Some 1369s worried him too.

Eventually, when he retired, they discovered in his office lots of reports and indeed whole files, behind cupboards and filing cabinets etc. This explained why some individuals had gone 2 and even 3 tours at some places; they had dropped completely off the radar.

To counter Tuc's arguement, where an SO has behaved in an incompetent or vindictive manner, their nature is often discovered later on and they are then often sidelined or better have their fortune read.

What was never done was to review any 1369s etc by that individual. I was shafted early by an elderly but newly arrived sqn cdr. Subsequently he was posted to a staff job at Epi and short toured by the gp capt. Next up the idiot tree was a right tartar who it turned out was suffering from a brain tumour. In those days the 1369 was confidential and debriefs rarely given; there was no redress.

[tucumseh]

PN

There is no need to counter my argument. I expressed an opinion and I entirely agree with the point you make in your particular case. It is only natural that we each cite personal experiences.

I believe much of MoD's incompetence stems from poor leadership by the protected species. For example, the RAF Chief Engineer's 1991 decision that all Admin staff shall be treated as senior to any Engineer. Ask any RAF SENGO how his morale would suffer if an Admin Pilot Officer was made his line manager; and that PO had engineering delegation and was allowed to overrule the SENGO on engineering and safety decisions! That is precisely what MoD staff had to deal with in the early 90s. That ruling, while on paper overturned, set a tone that remains to this day. The successors to those early 90s civilian Engineers are mostly competent in their own field, but completely out of their depth when granted, for example, airworthiness delegation. (And worse, being allowed to self delegate). That act is at the root of a number of fatal accidents. Those who condone it should be in gaol, not praised by H-C.

There is a big difference between someone who is incompetent yet does his best, and someone who knowingly commits fraud on a vast scale, then seeks to hide it by slashing other budgets so the overall books "balance". In the case I quote (AMSO's deliberate waste of the late 80s/90s, which is at the root of current deficits), why not simply stop the waste? But that would make public the root problem. A conscious decision was made NOT to stop the waste, and civil servants who tried to were threatened with dismissal. What morale do you think remained after that?

I think we speak from the same page, just from a different perspective.

The worst CS in Air Staffs (in my experience)? The one who, in late 1990, refused to endorse expenditure to get the 3rd Nimrod R flying, because he "hadn't received a letter from the Prime Minister telling (me) we were going to war". I had to let 39 contracts on a handshake, promising to cough up after the event. Every company worked for nothing and delivered on time. He was praised, I was vilified. Rumour has it he was personally decorated by Saddam for his contribution to the war effort. From what you say, there are a lot like him!


Regards

[Courtney Mil]

Orca, I couldn't agree more. They get away with it every time.

And being desk monitor at Gp was my finest hour. Makes me proud to have served!

[Easy Street]

Not understanding how the very top of the RAF works, perhaps someone could help me. I have heard people say that retired 3* and 4* still have influence over the Air Force Board and stick their oars in when it comes to things like selecting the next CAS. Is this just crewroom boll*cks or is there something in it? Sounds plausible given the reluctance of the current leadership to do anything about the issues tuc raises. Perhaps it will need someone brave at the top to tell them all to bugger off, become JPs and join their parish councils to keep themselves busy...

[Pontius Navigator]

ES, surely not.

You would never find current and former VSO together in the RAF Club would you?

[Courtney Mil]

Would you?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

the very top of the RAF works

It does?!

Do you know something we don't?

[Red Line Entry]

There's a world of difference between drinking with someone and being beholden to them.

I've known and been friendly with predecessors of the tour I've been doing. I've also been interested when they've related stories of their time in post and when they've given me advice. That doesn't mean that I've taken their advice as gospel or that I've felt under obligation to follow it. Why the hell does anyone think it's different for VSOs?

Do people think there's a secret contract you have to sign on promotion, promising to always follow the orders from those who recommended them? Ah well, I suppose it's human nature to love conspiracy theories.

[tucumseh]

Easy Street

The events leading up to the MoK announcement last year clearly illustrated the influence of these retired VSOs. Their media interviews, especially with BBC Radio Ulster, were word for word what the MoD (esp D/Air Staffs) later said. Alcock's claims about the CHART report (that it had nothing to do with Chinook Mk2) were repeated word for word in Ministerial briefings; despite the team's Terms of Reference specifically including Mk2 and the report mentioning it no less than 383 times!

As Alcock was one of only two recipients of the report, and had delayed the start of the investigation while the ToRs were diluted, I'll leave you to decide if his was a genuine mistake or something more sinister. You may recall the Team went beyond their ToRs, which specifically prevented them from speaking to MoD's specialist airworthiness staffs - an astonishing constraint. That is to their credit and it did their careers no good at all.

Fox cleverly circumvented their influence by using the Defence Council and in doing so dented their influence. Certainly, these VSOs have been noticeably silent ever since.

[Pontius Navigator]

I've known and been friendly with predecessors of the tour I've been doing. I've also been interested when they've related stories of their time in post and when they've given me advice. That doesn't mean that I've taken their advice as gospel or that I've felt under obligation to follow it.

doesn't mean that I've taken their advice as gospel, but I might have considered it or that I've felt under obligation to follow it but I might have done

I was in such a situation where I was in a quite new sphere, my predecessor had left a very full bried but in a 4 day hand-over it was inevitable that things were left out.

Until I mastered my brief I was beholden to him for his advice before he left and for a few months afterwards.

I imagine also at the very top there will be a desire to maintain continuity. I think most of us will remember when the top man pushed through his own beliefs - the QNH debacle - and what happened almost the day after he resigned - the return to QFE.

I suspect that maintenance of the aim remains high on their list of 'must do's.'

[Chugalug2]

RLE:
Why the hell does anyone think it's different for VSOs?
Because certain VSOs post 1987 set in chain the course of events described above by Tuc.
An incredibly stupid policy resulted in a sky rocketing deficit in the Defence Budget.
A further incredibly stupid policy was devised to claw back the deficit by slashing time and money spent on airworthiness provision (as mandated by the Regulations). Engineers with Airworthiness Delegation resisted and even disobeyed illegal orders from VSOs to suborn the Regulations.
A further incredibly stupid policy meant they were replaced by junior administrators.
Despite being urged by Boscombe Down to ground its newly and illegally released to service Chinook HC2s, the RAF instead sent 26 VIPs up in what was then known to be a Grossly Unairworthy aircraft. It crashed killing all 29 on board.
A further incredibly stupid act was to find the two deceased pilots Grossly Negligent with no proof whatsoever. That finding by 2 VSOs was upheld by other VSOs for the next 17 years. The RAF High Command has still not accepted the action of the SoS in overturning that finding, talking still of the pilots flying in cloud below SA into terrain, still with no proof.
That is why VSOs are different, because of incredibly stupid policies and decisions which would discredit them all if it emerged. Their trouble is that it has emerged. They are all discredited. That is what makes them different!

[vascodegama]

PN are you suggesting that it was the idea of QNH that was wrong or the way it was introduced? I would say that we should join the rest of the flying world and bin the idea of QFE . Here in OXON no one has flown into the ground since the changes to our procedures. Not only that but the FJ world seems to manage in KDH and other places.

[Pontius Navigator]

vasco, the way it was introduced.

The lesser powers that be had used all their ammunition to try and retain QFE from the ease of training pilot to land when the altimeter read zero, aerobatics and flying displays I suspect, and ignored the fact that in a low level regime you need to fly at a fixed interval above an undulating surface referenced to a plain surface - sea level.

That this resistance was led by the pilot mafia (I presume) and I think the navman at Northolt had something to say too (cost) transcended every command only the man at the top of the tree had the cojones to introduce change.

No single Group could go it alone and the CinC was obviously one of the mafia.

As soon as the top of the tree was ppruned the mafia struck regardless of expense reissuing all those Taps.

Regarding the mafia, and including navman, look how long it took to get Tap books.

[vascodegama]

PN

Fair point-to my mind the most ridiculous idea was the idea of a common QFE at Lossiemouth/Kinloss. I guess we will be the last organisation using QFE.