View Full Version : Flexicrew Wages
16th Aug 2012, 15:24
Hi. I am just wondering if anyone would mind telling me how much on average UK easyJet FOs are earning right now and on average how many hours you are getting on average? I understand it's £1200 a month for the first 8 months but how much can you expect to earn afterwards? Thanks.
16th Aug 2012, 15:39
I'm not in the industry but is this really correct? £1200 per month?!! Some of my lowest paid staff are on not much less than that and they don't have anywhere near the level of intelligence or skills that one would expect from a FO!
How on earth, with the no doubt large debt that some of the P2F guys have, can they survive?
The African Dude
16th Aug 2012, 15:42
Spicejetter, it rather depends on whether or not you are one of the 46 who has just been stood down for the winter... :sad:
16th Aug 2012, 15:47
My girlfriend is cabin crew and earns more than that. For 6 weeks training and with the responsibility for a door.
Every day there are more and more EZY flexicrew on the crew bus, no doubt just biding their time, 'slumming it' and getting some hours before moving on to that career airline...the problem is that career airline is trying to compete with EZY so slashes it's Ts and Cs...and so that lucrative, career airline contract isn't quite what they'd hoped for when they get there. The race to the bottom continues...
Of course - CTC, senior pilots/trainers in airlines and the unions have a hell of a lot to answer for too. More so. They have/had the power to stop this exploitation/profiteering. Prospective EZY cadets don't.
Prospective EZY cadets don't.
These prospective candidates are precisely the people that can stop it - by simply not signing up to it - just say "no thank you, those terms are not reasonable for the amount of responsibility/debt I have".
If a lot of people actually stopped to think for 2 minutes as opposed to hurling their cheque books at the agencies what do you think would happen to T&C's / contracts. As long as you keep coming (in droves) so the contracts will get worse. Plain. Simple. Painful. Reality.
16th Aug 2012, 16:17
It doesn't matter how many times you tell them, they will not listen.
There are still thousands more waiting in the shadows!
16th Aug 2012, 17:09
To answer the posters question:
The maximum you could fly in a year is 900 hours. Therefore the maximum you could fly a month, on average, is 75 hours. with that you could expect maybe 4 standbys.
The maximum you could earn a month on average with CTC on the £42 per block hour rate is therefore £3825 per month BEFORE TAX. The maximum annual salary is therefore £45,900 BEFORE TAX.
The reality is somewhere between 650-750 hours a year for the 'lucky' flexicrewers who get kept on a full 12 months. So that's between 54 and 63 hours a month. Let's again add 4 standbys though you can't count on it and they play with them.
A realistic expectation is:
£2868 - £3246 a month BEFORE TAX. So maybe £2200 - £2500 AFTER TAX and NI.
So it's about £34000 - £39000 a year with no guarantees.
once you pass a threshold amount of EASYJET FACTORED HOURS you'll get a £10 per SCHEDULED block hour pay rise. So take the average hours per month, multiply by 10 and add that o the figures to see where you could be at.
There will be the sensationalists that will tell you they made £4000- £5000 in a month. That was a happy coincidence for them not by design. And they'll have paid for it another month.
Before anyone starts saying 'that's well above the national average etc.' The job is well above the national average and I'd have thought most people considering this method of work have at least some part of a high repayment professional studies loan which will have begun life around the £100,000 mark.
A typical CTC cadet, that hasn't gone bankrupt, has £1200-1400 loan repayments to make a month, maybe £300 a month for a room, £200 for food, £30 for a mobile, £150 for a car. As you can see, it's tighter than a ducks butt. And that's if it goes to plan.
It works fine if you're 21 with rich parents/ went bankrupt/ always planned on going bankrupt.
I urge people to consider their futures though. Their are no pension payments and the average UK pension returns an annual income on about £3-4000 a year in retirement for very £100000 saved. I wish you the best of luck putting anything reasonable away with this salary. Bearing in mind you'll struggle to get a mortgage with the 0 hour guarantee hourly rate contract don't count on falling back on the collateral in your house.
easyjet have no intention of giving people a permanent UK contract on anything other than ridiculous terms (and we are talking excessively low with no additions like pension, LOL, medicals etc). To put the chances of getting permanent employment with easyjet in the UK in the future into perspective (in my opinion), the average pilot has probably somewhere in the order of 100 times more likelihood of getting a job with BA - a company that can afford to be extremely 'selective' and took on maybe 90 pilots from 2500 applications. So for BA that's perhaps, on average a 3-4 % chance. At easyJet the chances barely worth considering. And the company ain't that great for those chances! Think about what you're doing - you're gambling your career on this and every move.
As for jobs in Mainland Europe with easyJet - I think that their will be few openings and competition will be fierce. Unfortunately the ship has sailed. Another example of how this job and life all comes down to luck. Europe's inevitable downfall won't help.
16th Aug 2012, 17:18
Now using B&Bs figures, remember that flexicrew are only required for 6-8 months in a year.
The debt repayments are required every month.
16th Aug 2012, 17:19
Blackbrown has it on the head, square on! The likelihood of a UK contract with easyJet is about as much as hitting the big six on the lottery.
Say NO to flexicrew, do yourself and the industry a massive favour.
Ask the 46 UK guys this year stood down over winter to 'consolidate their training' (sec) :mad: management spin!
16th Aug 2012, 17:20
Thanks for your replies, in particular blackandbrown. Depressing really! You know sometimes you wish you had never asked a question? Well....
The African Dude
16th Aug 2012, 17:31
No, be grateful you asked since now you can put this to anybody else wanting to sign up!!
I joined CTC well before Flexicrew existed and honestly, if it had, I would have saved my cash, trained part time or later, and then taken my chances in Botswana or somewhere if flying was what I REALLY wanted to do above all else.
Just to add: I am referring to Flexi in the current guise - with no real prospect of a permanent contract any time soon and no work over the winter. The scheme (eventually) did work for me as it did with i_like_tea but if I had joined 6 months later it would not have been the case.
16th Aug 2012, 17:37
Anyone know if the CTC wings ATP guys also spend the first 8 months on £1200 or is it just the Wings Cadets? Do the ATP guys go straight onto hourly paid like Parc guys do?
16th Aug 2012, 17:53
Your lower paid staff probably have a higher IQ than those who seriously consider the zero to unemployed deeply indebted (£120k on average) jet "hero" - anyone with an ounce of sense (ok 0.028349523kg of sense for the younger folk), would steer clear of these schemes!
16th Aug 2012, 18:36
I like tea, if your posting history is anything to go by, you were one of the first to try the Parc scheme. You were extremely lucky to be able to afford an additional £35000 for the type rating on top of your flight training costs. How you did it is none of my or anyone else's business. I understand why you did it - if I were in your shoes then and could save afforded to I'd have done the same. Nevertheless your post is, with the greatest respect, useless. The first proper year of FlexiCrew was a freak. Back in 2010 easyJet were so under crewed everyone was on max hours, max standbys and thus max money. People progressed towards the pay rise hour limits rapidly. That was then. The only line to be extrapolated from here is a downward one I'm afraid. That's not scare mongering. A few people in the company are heavily incentivised to reduce crew costs. The past is a 'known'. It's probability is 1/1. It has no effect on the future. Your narrative on the past is just an irrelevant story I'm afraid. I personally would really rather not be living abroad - that said I'd recommend to anyone to use this moment to get some 'life experience', see another country, travel a bit and let the shit settle. Look on the bright side, your taxes won't be spent on repaying the excessive Olympics bill!
If you have a permanent job flying you'd be MENTAL to leave it for flexicrew. I genuinely wouldn't recommend it and I do enjoy my job flying for easyJet. You need to decide if you want to be a pilot more or be in the UK more.
Permanent jobs in mainland Europe with easy as i've said will be few and far between. You'll also be stuck at the back of a massive queue to get one of the very few perm mainland positions if you've not already 'signed on' for flexicrew ( it's like job seekers). Fleet expansion has stopped and the crews are generally pretty young with plenty of life in them yet!
Do what you have to do but don't moan.
And I like tea please do not take offence, your post was no doubt written with the best of intentions but I think you are a little idealistic in your views.
16th Aug 2012, 20:47
I flew 650 hours per year for EasyJet on Parc Flexicrew, at an average of 2 standby duties a month and was on the highest of the three pay brackets (worked out through factored hours)
650 * 67 + 24 * 260 = 49950 / annum.
With the Irish tax scam system you'll lose about a third to tax. Bear in mind that winter months will bring in almost nothing and you get no holiday pay, no loss of license, no bonus, no share scheme, no pension, no control over your roster and an uncertain future.
You will get to fly shiny new aircraft with great people, but that will be tempered when you fly with he small minority of Captains who hate your guts for being Flexicrew. Fortunately not a problem at my base (where all the Captains were brilliant fun to work with) but definitely a problem elsewhere.
Having said all that it did provide me with the experience I needed to join BA but deep down a bit of me misses the orange airline and wishes they had a more mature attitude towards recruitment.
16th Aug 2012, 21:19
Do CTC flexicrew get paid for standbys?
R T Jones
16th Aug 2012, 22:33
Blackandbrown has written exactly as I would have. Please read his post, it's got no sensationalism in it and very accurately describes the situation at easyJet. A very robust post, if I do say so...
16th Aug 2012, 23:13
Built4Speed, having skimmed through previous similar threads regarding flexicrew, the general consensus among some of our colleagues, and perhaps it is the natural reaction, is that, if it doesn't affect me, then why should I do something about it.
Then I read about the possibility of flexicrew Captains and saw that it resonated with a few more people who previously didn't care too much. I was reminded of an old adage:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
The question is, what can we do about it? I don't work for easyJet but don't like the way this is heading. Ryanair may already be a lost cause, but perhaps some action here can have an affect elsewhere.
17th Aug 2012, 02:12
And this is a unionised airline!
17th Aug 2012, 06:57
The reality is somewhere between 650-750 hours a year for the 'lucky' flexicrewers who get kept on a full 12 months
There are plenty of flexi crew whose 12 month hours are getting under 600 now so you can't even bank on 650!
17th Aug 2012, 07:08
So you get paid for the hours you fly. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone know if you need to pay for your class one renewals? Seems the Parc deal is the better of the two.
17th Aug 2012, 07:15
No, you're paid for the SCHEDULED block hour. If you receive a slot in PMI one night and are delayed by 4 hours then you wait there for free and as a reward have tomorrows sectors and thus pay removed.
And yes, Parc are the better company to be with.
R T Jones
17th Aug 2012, 07:24
You are paid for scheduled block hours, standby, ground duties (sim,sep) and a night stop allowance for flying related duties. Your id and car park pass are paid for.
You pay for medicals, uniform, pension, loss of licence.
You are not eligible for any share schemes or commuter letters.
Rolling hours are 680 in the last 12 months.
Your at the mercy of crewing, called from standby for a duty can disrupt your roster so you cannot do your duty the day after, if that turns to a rest day it can quite easily be a loss of 200 - 400 and there's nothing you can do about it.
17th Aug 2012, 09:15
Those of you saying that the solution to stopping flexi is to ask people not to join on that contract are morons. That will never work... Ever!
Rather BALPA on the inside of this company need to stop it for the sake of ALL it's representatives both in and out of easyjet. It is unacceptable and BALPA are not protecting us. I'd consider cancelling my membership if they do nothing. Enough is enough!
But to say the solution to it is asking people not to sign up?! Morons!!
R T Jones
17th Aug 2012, 12:30
Can I also add about the CTC flexicrew contracts. You also earn 12% in addition to your 43/52 per hour as holiday pay. When you take leave this is paid in addition. You are also an employee of a company, therefore your tax and n.i is taken from your wages and there is employers n.i being paid. I also believe some parc guys based in europe and regularly being moved every 6 months due to their contract status. Perhaps a parc flexicrew could shed more light on that.
...and cancelling your BALPA membership will achieve what exactly in the battle to improve Cadet T&C's?
I''m still waiting for someone to explain just what they think the workforce/BALPA can legally do. No one in their right mind is going to put their own livelihood at risk to help a non-employee/contractor etc - if you did, then indeed you would be the "moron" to quote bigjarv.
What are the "afflicted" doing to help themselves? If you want a new car and the price is 20% too high and the salesman absolutely will not budge, what do you do? Walk away. There gets a point when you just say no. Or you just take on the extra debt.... choose in haste, regret at your leisure.
We can fight for the ones already here but for the lemmings signing up to this now ...... I'm sorry but you're on your own :ugh:
17th Aug 2012, 13:36
Check this post here near the bottom of the page from me to you....
My reply is the same!
I openly admit to being a moron from time to time but on this occasion I think you have unrealistic expectations of human nature! A bad opportunity to you looks like a great one to someone else!
You as the strong plenty on which the airline relies should be able to make your voice heard to the few who lead. That should be how the system works. It is you guys who are strong, NOT the new cadet.
Edited to say also that cancelling my BALPA membership shows BALPA that I don't think they are representing me because this flexi stuff will affect us all in or out of Easy. They should find a solution, thats what I pay my not insignificant subs for!
17th Aug 2012, 17:12
What the Union should be doing about it is simple. They should be handing management a proposal whereby all Easy pilots are employed on acceptable Ts and Cs as permanent staff or there will be a strike ballot.
Of course, the older guys on permanent contracts will stick their heads where the sun don't shine and not vote to strike, and then blame the union when they can't get a pay rise.
Just out of interest, what do BALPA charge flexicrew pilots in terms of membership fees. 1% of "salary" would amount to nothing wouldn't it, in your case? Get enough of you in and you will be able to have a ballot in which you can seriously influence the result.
Of course we have seen how BALPA reps fare in EZ...they morph into management. Same old, same old.
17th Aug 2012, 17:25
I honestly don't see the point in BALPA. I think I'll not bother joining them, I think I'll need the membership fees for food!
17th Aug 2012, 18:49
A note needs to be made about the fact that easyJet pays the full whack from day 1 for the CTC cadets as well, but CTC gets the majority of the money until the pay per hour sets in.
17th Aug 2012, 18:53
I honestly don't see the point in BALPA. I think I'll not bother joining them
Probably the most narrow minded, ill thought out comment I've heard for a while.
Balpa may appear ineffectual to some, but they are all we have. With stagnant Flexicrew membership, Flexicrew will never seek recognition within CTC/Parc and terms and conditions will perpetually decline; indeed with inflation the way it is, Flexicrew are enduring a sizeable pay cut year on year.
Flexicrew Balpa membership is £2/month for the first 8 months (CTC), then £10/month thereafter. If you'd prefer to be £2 a month better off, rather than attempt to unite and improve matters, then you've clearly had a fairly sizeable Lobotomy!
17th Aug 2012, 18:55
It's clear that really a UK base is one to avoid if one aspires to fly the orange bus. None of this crap in Europe. And with European FOs earning more than UK captains really the joke is on everyone in the uk. Permanent skipper or flexi FO.
17th Aug 2012, 20:18
Not really a joke though is it, I'd bet that almost all of those in the UK would love to go out to Europe, but for whatever reason, can't.
17th Aug 2012, 20:46
It is when you sit down and look at it. The crew of a British based aircraft combined earn less than the skipper of a European one. Why do they pay these guys so much more when the UK is where it all started?
Pork chop express
17th Aug 2012, 21:13
''m still waiting for someone to explain just what they think the workforce/BALPA can legally do. No one in their right mind is going to put their own livelihood at risk to help a non-employee/contractor etc....
Well that Non-employee / contractor sits next to you and your permanent contract colleagues in fact only a few feet away upfront. So they fly an Easyjet aircraft if the sh*t hits the fan and the person in the left hand seat (YOU) had a medical problem it would be that Flexi crew Non employee colleague who'd have your fate and the 150+ pax fates in their hands!
I would have thought there were enough grounds to go on strike collectively based on Easy jet exploiting new joiners who cannot live properly, come to work unwell lowering safety so they don't lose their pay etc etc....It is a case of i'm alright Jack and sloping shoulders of those on good T&C's end of!
Anyone who thinks that a cadet turning around and saying NO will stop it is in cloud cuckoo land as the bloke behind him will say yes......to get a foot on the ladder, would any of us have been any different if it was the ONLY option when we finished training? Is today's youths mindset that different to us when we were in that positon? I dealt it....
It is when you as their Non colleagues say that you will no longer fly with someone on your flight deck who is being exploited. How none of you can see that grounding Easyjet in the UK until they change things wouldn't have the company on its knees within a week begging you to come back to work is beyond me.....:ugh:
Why doesn't such exploitation take place in Europe? Erm..........!
17th Aug 2012, 21:33
I do love armchair lawyers......yawn. :zzz:
It is when you as their Non colleagues say that you will no longer fly with someone on your flight deck who is being exploited. How none of you can see that grounding Easyjet in the UK until they change things wouldn't have the company on its knees within a week begging you to come back to work is beyond me....
Wow, scrap the highly paid lawyers here's a great suggestion :ugh: clearly you have no knowledge of UK law...
If it was this simple don't you think BALPA would've done something about it?
17th Aug 2012, 21:51
Phensocks... you got any ideas? Think this company needs one. If you have some thoughts we'd love to hear it!
18th Aug 2012, 11:13
The point being made (and ignored by many) is that there are currently no legal grounds to strike over the Flexicrew issue. The UK courts have shown themselves recently to be hostile to strike action (think BASSA). Any attempt to forge ahead with industrial action on flimsy grounds would simply not stand up to legal scrutiny.
18th Aug 2012, 16:29
Ok cirromange. So every flexi crew joins BALPA and suddenly everything will be better? And I'm the one that's had the lobotomy? You make me chuckle!
18th Aug 2012, 18:02
Ok cirromange. So every flexi crew joins BALPA and suddenly everything will be better? And I'm the one that's had the lobotomy? You make me chuckle!
Fair enough. You keep your £2/month and we'll keep everything the same without even trying :ugh:
Are you seriously content with that or do you have any illuminating theories to put to us?
18th Aug 2012, 23:13
It is actually that simple. :ugh:
But the problem lies in the fact that Flexicrew are contractors - so cannot be 'properly unionised'. A pitfall of being temporary/contract/agency staff and not a permanent employee.
Same as the Ryanair pilots in a word. Part of the reason that management like such contracts - you have virtually no rights.
There are a few ways that this could be swung.
Permanent crews could refuse to fly with Flexicrew on grounds of flight safety - flexi F/Os flying fatigued, unwell etc. It's a stretch...
though, I do wonder what the media would make of such a state of affairs? But not an ideal move overall and may not achieve any tangible results.
The deal clincher would be as follows... :E
Flexicrew as a collective or one 'lone gunman' could claim permanent employment rights - see Nadine Quashie's plight at the bottom of this reply. If one man succeeded then the whole deck of cards would collapse. The precedent would be set and flexicrew/Brookfield/Storm McGinley would be over.
The use of disguised employment is a form of tax evasion and is illegal. Feel free to argue with HMRC IR35.
HM Revenue & Customs: Employment status (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm)
Pay particular attention to the bit about halfway down that link entitled 'Employed or Self Employed? (or just see below)
I think that will clarify exactly where Flexicrew, Brookfield and Storm McGinley stand...
Pulled straight from HMRC IR35;
"As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?"
And here is the Lap Dancer Nadine Quashie that just won employment rights... If she can do it - what's your excuse? :confused:
Have a read, chaps... Her plight sound similar to the way that Ryanair/Flexicrew has illegally 'employed' pilots for the past few years??? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif
Lap dancer Nadine Quashie: Why I took on Stringfellows | Life and style | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jun/18/lap-dancer-nadine-quashie-stringfellows)
19th Aug 2012, 09:53
I think you'll find IR35 about as much use as tits on nun, but keep dreaming that it is the golden bullet.
How successful has IR35 been for HMRC? | Churchill Knight & Associates Ltd (http://www.churchill-knight.co.uk/2011/12/how-successful-has-ir35-been-for-hmrc/)
I believe the CTC guys have their tax and NI paid by CTC and therefore totally legal therefore they are acting as subcontractors and their is nothing illegal about that.
19th Aug 2012, 22:43
There wasn't a great deal of substance in that link... other than to show that HMRC isn't really paying as much attention to the rule as what it should be doing. It appears that HMRC are using this legislation as a scarecrow, as opposed to actually investigating 'disguised employment'. Probably down to resources and general inclination/apathy at HMRC, is my guess... :ugh:
I will agree to disagree with you on IR35... I believe that it is indeed a line of advance.
Furthermore, new rules have recently surfaced permitting contractors the right to claim 'employee status' after 12 weeks. Not sure of the specifics on this one. There's also another route. There is European legislation regarding equal remuneration for people doing the same role. Again, I am not aware of the specifics.
Overall, BALPA need to be speaking to financial and employment experts, to find the definitive 'golden bullet' that could wipe out Flexicrew for good. A dangerous precedent has been set here.
I really hope I'm right otherwise this profession is dead. :\